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"Miracles"

royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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5/16/2013 6:56:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
When the Spanish found Qurikancha, they looted it of all of its gold and covered it with their Church of Santo Domingo. In 1950, an earthquake destroyed the church and exposed the granite walls of Qurikancha, which had also withstood several earthquakes prior to the one in 1950. Clearly this is a sign that Inti is a stronger god that Yahweh, right?

Obviously I'm being a little facetious, but I have noticed that a lot of people on this site believe in gods because of miracles. What constitutes a miracle? Does the survival of Qurikancha and the destruction of the Church count? If not, why not? Have you personally seen a miracle? If not, why do you believe in them?
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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5/16/2013 8:09:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Not because people believe in God that he doesn't punish them.

If 'Miracles' are not claimed , and not predicted, then they are not Miracles.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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5/16/2013 8:09:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Not because people believe in God that he doesn't punish them.

If 'Miracles' are not claimed , and not predicted, then they are not Miracles.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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5/16/2013 8:31:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/16/2013 6:56:16 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Obviously I'm being a little facetious, but I have noticed that a lot of people on this site believe in gods because of miracles. What constitutes a miracle? Does the survival of Qurikancha and the destruction of the Church count? If not, why not? Have you personally seen a miracle? If not, why do you believe in them?

I understand a miracle to be an event in the natural world whose cause is not part of the natural world. So, for example, if God or an angel intervened in the natural world, that would be a miracle.

What makes an event a miracle is not the same thing as how we know it's a miracle. It could be that miracles happen, but we don't notice they happened. And it could be that sometimes we think an event is a miracle when it's really not.

The most common way people recognize miracles is having some familiarity with the way the world usually works and noticing an event that deviates from the norm. It helps if the miracle happens in some context in which we might expect a miracle. For example, if lightening struck a corpse, causing it to catch fire, we might not think it's a miracle, but if somebody claiming to be a prophet called lightening down, and lightening came down and lit the corpse on fire, we'd have some justification for thinking it's a miracle. The reason a religious context increases the probability that the event is a miracle is because it introduces a large coincidence under the supposition that the event was not a miracle.

I don't think identifying miracles is always cut and dry. After all, a coincidence can be more or less striking, and our knowledge of the regularities of nature can be more or less certain. We can be more or less able to rule out natural explanations in given circumstances. We are prone to make mistakes, so we may be more justified in believing a miracle happened in some cases than in other cases.

Personally, I've never seen an event that I can say with much confidence was a miracle. I believe in miracles because of arguments like N.T. Wright makes in The Resurrection of the Son of God.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
makhdoom5
Posts: 202
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5/16/2013 8:35:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
man i have seen miracles.
and happens with me every day what u say about that.
i get what i ask from ALLAH what u say about that.
our relationship should be ask whatever u want from ALLAH.
in that the guidance and right path is also.
no need to search him but ask him what u want and believe him and live happy life.with thanks whatever he give u.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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5/16/2013 9:01:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/16/2013 8:09:23 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
Not because people believe in God that he doesn't punish them.

If 'Miracles' are not claimed , and not predicted, then they are not Miracles.

Prophecies and miracles seem to be two separate things.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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5/16/2013 9:02:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/16/2013 8:31:42 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 5/16/2013 6:56:16 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Obviously I'm being a little facetious, but I have noticed that a lot of people on this site believe in gods because of miracles. What constitutes a miracle? Does the survival of Qurikancha and the destruction of the Church count? If not, why not? Have you personally seen a miracle? If not, why do you believe in them?

I understand a miracle to be an event in the natural world whose cause is not part of the natural world. So, for example, if God or an angel intervened in the natural world, that would be a miracle.

What makes an event a miracle is not the same thing as how we know it's a miracle. It could be that miracles happen, but we don't notice they happened. And it could be that sometimes we think an event is a miracle when it's really not.

The most common way people recognize miracles is having some familiarity with the way the world usually works and noticing an event that deviates from the norm. It helps if the miracle happens in some context in which we might expect a miracle. For example, if lightening struck a corpse, causing it to catch fire, we might not think it's a miracle, but if somebody claiming to be a prophet called lightening down, and lightening came down and lit the corpse on fire, we'd have some justification for thinking it's a miracle. The reason a religious context increases the probability that the event is a miracle is because it introduces a large coincidence under the supposition that the event was not a miracle.

I don't think identifying miracles is always cut and dry. After all, a coincidence can be more or less striking, and our knowledge of the regularities of nature can be more or less certain. We can be more or less able to rule out natural explanations in given circumstances. We are prone to make mistakes, so we may be more justified in believing a miracle happened in some cases than in other cases.

Personally, I've never seen an event that I can say with much confidence was a miracle. I believe in miracles because of arguments like N.T. Wright makes in The Resurrection of the Son of God.

Thanks for your intelligent response. Doesn't it seem strange to believe that a miracle happened in the past if we don't have any way of knowing whether or not it actually was a miracle?
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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5/16/2013 9:04:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/16/2013 8:35:23 AM, makhdoom5 wrote:
man i have seen miracles.
Care to share?
and happens with me every day what u say about that.
i get what i ask from ALLAH what u say about that.
our relationship should be ask whatever u want from ALLAH.
in that the guidance and right path is also.
no need to search him but ask him what u want and believe him and live happy life.with thanks whatever he give u.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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5/16/2013 9:14:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/16/2013 9:02:59 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Thanks for your intelligent response. Doesn't it seem strange to believe that a miracle happened in the past if we don't have any way of knowing whether or not it actually was a miracle?

I don't think knowledge requires certainty, so i think it's possible to know that a miracle happened in the past even if you can't be certain about it. I don't think there's anything strange about knowing a miracle happened in the past. In the case of the resurrection, for example, the only thing we'd need to know to be justified in inferring that a miracle happened is...

1. Jesus really was dead.
2. Some time later, Jesus was alive.
3. Dead people don't naturally come back to life.

Of course, even if we knew these things, it wouldn't make it certain that a miracle happened. After all, it's at least possible that Jesus had one of those clinical deaths and was revived a few minutes later (though I think that's highly unlikely). It's also possible, given quantum randomness, that all the molecules in Jesus' body spontaneously rearranged themselves in such a way that his corpse came back to life. While extremely improbable, it's not impossible.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,733
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5/16/2013 9:28:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I was drawn to the Bible because I have observed that its moral principles are perfect. I can demonstrate them every day. Reading about miracles in the Bible doesn't do a whole lot for me. Jesus broke 7 loaves of bread to feed 5,000 people. OK... not sure what I'm supposed to take from that. Some people are highly receptive to the concept of miracles however, and I'm learning that people are drawn to God through several different means. Miracles, the character of Jesus, and the perception of prophecy fulfillment are several ways.

As far as your particular example, it would depend on how you interpret it, really. Christians don't endorse every person and monument built in the name of Christianity, hence the different sects. A Catholic isn't going to endorse the Westboro baptists... One of the reasons I never wanted to become a Christian is because of things like the Crusades, and all the Christians in our society (most our politicians are Christians) that I don't relate to. The Bible tells us that many will come in Christ's name, and we can't let these people ruin the Word for us. For a logician such as yourself, there will be no convincing - Christians can pick and choose just who they want to endorse and who they don't. I could say "that temple was not REALLY Christian" and then turn around and say that another that I approve of is. Logic is very useful, but if you want a spiritual side to your life you must have faith in that which is not logical.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
Sower4GS
Posts: 1,718
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5/17/2013 12:35:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
gods are made of men and lucifer, you need to check out the posts, forums here on the true and only Elohim (GOD) who is YHWH and His Son Yahushua. Not Jesus or Zeus or anything like that. Study, pray and look up!
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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5/17/2013 8:06:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/16/2013 9:14:52 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 5/16/2013 9:02:59 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Thanks for your intelligent response. Doesn't it seem strange to believe that a miracle happened in the past if we don't have any way of knowing whether or not it actually was a miracle?

I don't think knowledge requires certainty, so i think it's possible to know that a miracle happened in the past even if you can't be certain about it. I don't think there's anything strange about knowing a miracle happened in the past. In the case of the resurrection, for example, the only thing we'd need to know to be justified in inferring that a miracle happened is...

1. Jesus really was dead.
2. Some time later, Jesus was alive.
3. Dead people don't naturally come back to life.

Of course, even if we knew these things, it wouldn't make it certain that a miracle happened. After all, it's at least possible that Jesus had one of those clinical deaths and was revived a few minutes later (though I think that's highly unlikely). It's also possible, given quantum randomness, that all the molecules in Jesus' body spontaneously rearranged themselves in such a way that his corpse came back to life. While extremely improbable, it's not impossible.

Is it possible that Jesus never actually died? I know that in England, they used to bury people with bells because often, people were not actually dead when they were buried and they would then die as a result of oxygen deprivation.
Prodigenius
Posts: 209
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5/17/2013 8:08:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
If you don't believe in miracles why do you make a forum about them?
Live for the present, for it is a gift.

I surveyed 100 women and asked them what shampoo they used when showering, 98 of them said: How the hell did you get in here?
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,750
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5/17/2013 9:22:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/16/2013 9:14:52 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 5/16/2013 9:02:59 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Thanks for your intelligent response. Doesn't it seem strange to believe that a miracle happened in the past if we don't have any way of knowing whether or not it actually was a miracle?

I don't think knowledge requires certainty, so i think it's possible to know that a miracle happened in the past even if you can't be certain about it. I don't think there's anything strange about knowing a miracle happened in the past. In the case of the resurrection, for example, the only thing we'd need to know to be justified in inferring that a miracle happened is...

1. Jesus really was dead.
2. Some time later, Jesus was alive.
3. Dead people don't naturally come back to life.

Of course, even if we knew these things, it wouldn't make it certain that a miracle happened. After all, it's at least possible that Jesus had one of those clinical deaths and was revived a few minutes later (though I think that's highly unlikely). It's also possible, given quantum randomness, that all the molecules in Jesus' body spontaneously rearranged themselves in such a way that his corpse came back to life. While extremely improbable, it's not impossible.

Also, it is probable that Jesus never came back to life and it is just a myth. It is possible Blackbeard the pirate came back to life as the story goes, but most likely it is a myth.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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5/17/2013 9:23:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/17/2013 8:06:12 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Is it possible that Jesus never actually died? I know that in England, they used to bury people with bells because often, people were not actually dead when they were buried and they would then die as a result of oxygen deprivation.

Anything is possible. Except maybe square circles and married bachelors.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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5/18/2013 6:46:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/16/2013 9:01:34 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/16/2013 8:09:23 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
Not because people believe in God that he doesn't punish them.

If 'Miracles' are not claimed , and not predicted, then they are not Miracles.

Prophecies and miracles seem to be two separate things.

You are right I understand now that you mean, Miracles of everyday , not with prophets.

Like something that can happen according to the universe rules, but its occurrence context is special and interpreted as "Miracle" by people.

Well in this case really anybody can claim about anything to be a miracle and proof for his deity or whatever.

There are also superstitious people, if they see a black cat in the morning, whatever bad thing happens to them will be due to the curse of the black cat!