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Why are we in tune with morality?

Guy-In-Process
Posts: 36
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5/22/2013 5:53:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Why is the human race in tune with knowing what is right and wrong? Why does our conscious tell us what is right and wrong?

Is it good is steal? No, don't we all know that? Say you stole 100 bucks, know ones knows you did the act, only you know. Would you feel that you should not have stolen the 100 bucks, even if no one else knew? If yes, why? If no, why?

I have a system of answers you might have, and I will question them once you have answered the situational question I have presented.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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5/22/2013 6:13:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think God created us with an innate knowledge of His existence, and knowledge of right and wrong. Without God, there is nothing that can be said to be objectively right or wrong.
Guy-In-Process
Posts: 36
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5/22/2013 6:38:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/22/2013 6:24:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:23:09 PM, drafterman wrote:
We aren't. Morality is in tune with us.

Bingo.
Yeah, bingo, morality is in tune with us, why? Answer the original question please, I would be grateful.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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5/22/2013 6:53:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/22/2013 6:38:02 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:24:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:23:09 PM, drafterman wrote:
We aren't. Morality is in tune with us.

Bingo.
Yeah, bingo, morality is in tune with us, why? Answer the original question please, I would be grateful.

The question is loaded and dependent upon false premises. I gave the answer: we aren't in tune with morality. Morality is in tune with us because of evolution. We evolved morality as a necessary survival trait of being a social species.
Guy-In-Process
Posts: 36
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5/22/2013 7:01:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/22/2013 6:53:27 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:38:02 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:24:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:23:09 PM, drafterman wrote:
We aren't. Morality is in tune with us.

Bingo.
Yeah, bingo, morality is in tune with us, why? Answer the original question please, I would be grateful.

The question is loaded and dependent upon false premises. I gave the answer: we aren't in tune with morality. Morality is in tune with us because of evolution. We evolved morality as a necessary survival trait of being a social species.

"Is it good is steal? No, don't we all know that? Say you stole 100 bucks, know ones knows you did the act, only you know. Would you feel that you should not have stolen the 100 bucks, even if no one else knew? If yes, why? If no, why?" -----ANSWER PLEASE!</strong> : )
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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5/22/2013 7:09:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/22/2013 7:01:36 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:53:27 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:38:02 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:24:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:23:09 PM, drafterman wrote:
We aren't. Morality is in tune with us.

Bingo.
Yeah, bingo, morality is in tune with us, why? Answer the original question please, I would be grateful.

The question is loaded and dependent upon false premises. I gave the answer: we aren't in tune with morality. Morality is in tune with us because of evolution. We evolved morality as a necessary survival trait of being a social species.

"Is it good is steal? No, don't we all know that? Say you stole 100 bucks, know ones knows you did the act, only you know. Would you feel that you should not have stolen the 100 bucks, even if no one else knew? If yes, why? If no, why?" -----ANSWER PLEASE! : )

Yes, because I'm causing harm to someone which, as a member of a species that depends on mutual cooperation among its members (generally). The negative emotional response is there to act as a deterrent to working against this survival mechanism. Not to mention the result of operational conditioning of having grown up with such values taught to me.
Bullish
Posts: 3,527
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5/22/2013 7:30:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I believe that the Golden Rule usually holds for morality (but it's not necessarily all of morality). Anything else is subjective. Yes, we have the hold on morality.

At 5/22/2013 7:01:36 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
"Is it good is steal? No, don't we all know that? Say you stole 100 bucks, know ones knows you did the act, only you know. Would you feel that you should not have stolen the 100 bucks, even if no one else knew? If yes, why? If no, why?" -----ANSWER PLEASE! : )

Yes. I once saw $20 on the ground, and I was pretty sure it was my neighbor's because he just left. I pocketed it. No guilty conscience.
0x5f3759df
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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5/22/2013 7:50:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/22/2013 6:53:27 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:38:02 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:24:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:23:09 PM, drafterman wrote:
We aren't. Morality is in tune with us.

Bingo.
Yeah, bingo, morality is in tune with us, why? Answer the original question please, I would be grateful.

The question is loaded and dependent upon false premises. I gave the answer: we aren't in tune with morality. Morality is in tune with us because of evolution. We evolved morality as a necessary survival trait of being a social species.

That's no answer, "morality evolved" doesn't explain why we know right from wrong. An "evolution of the gaps" argument isn't any stronger than a "God of the gaps" argument.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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5/22/2013 7:54:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/22/2013 7:09:04 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 7:01:36 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:53:27 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:38:02 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:24:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:23:09 PM, drafterman wrote:
We aren't. Morality is in tune with us.

Bingo.
Yeah, bingo, morality is in tune with us, why? Answer the original question please, I would be grateful.

The question is loaded and dependent upon false premises. I gave the answer: we aren't in tune with morality. Morality is in tune with us because of evolution. We evolved morality as a necessary survival trait of being a social species.

"Is it good is steal? No, don't we all know that? Say you stole 100 bucks, know ones knows you did the act, only you know. Would you feel that you should not have stolen the 100 bucks, even if no one else knew? If yes, why? If no, why?" -----ANSWER PLEASE! : )

Yes, because I'm causing harm to someone which, as a member of a species that depends on mutual cooperation among its members (generally). The negative emotional response is there to act as a deterrent to working against this survival mechanism. Not to mention the result of operational conditioning of having grown up with such values taught to me.

The behavior had to be there before it was selected, this argument is a retrospective conclusion, it isn't explanatory.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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5/22/2013 7:57:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/22/2013 7:50:57 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:53:27 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:38:02 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:24:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:23:09 PM, drafterman wrote:
We aren't. Morality is in tune with us.

Bingo.
Yeah, bingo, morality is in tune with us, why? Answer the original question please, I would be grateful.

The question is loaded and dependent upon false premises. I gave the answer: we aren't in tune with morality. Morality is in tune with us because of evolution. We evolved morality as a necessary survival trait of being a social species.

That's no answer, "morality evolved" doesn't explain why we know right from wrong. An "evolution of the gaps" argument isn't any stronger than a "God of the gaps" argument.

Evolution is the explanation. We have morality because we evolved it.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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5/22/2013 7:58:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/22/2013 7:54:13 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/22/2013 7:09:04 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 7:01:36 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:53:27 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:38:02 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:24:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:23:09 PM, drafterman wrote:
We aren't. Morality is in tune with us.

Bingo.
Yeah, bingo, morality is in tune with us, why? Answer the original question please, I would be grateful.

The question is loaded and dependent upon false premises. I gave the answer: we aren't in tune with morality. Morality is in tune with us because of evolution. We evolved morality as a necessary survival trait of being a social species.

"Is it good is steal? No, don't we all know that? Say you stole 100 bucks, know ones knows you did the act, only you know. Would you feel that you should not have stolen the 100 bucks, even if no one else knew? If yes, why? If no, why?" -----ANSWER PLEASE! : )

Yes, because I'm causing harm to someone which, as a member of a species that depends on mutual cooperation among its members (generally). The negative emotional response is there to act as a deterrent to working against this survival mechanism. Not to mention the result of operational conditioning of having grown up with such values taught to me.

The behavior had to be there before it was selected, this argument is a retrospective conclusion, it isn't explanatory.

This literally makes no sense. All traits existed before they were selected.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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5/22/2013 8:02:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Theft requires that a society have a concept of property rights. If a society didn't have that, then the theft could not occur.

Therefore, in a society in which property rights existed, I would logically conclude that I should not steal, because I would think it is the "best practice" to keep the system intact.

I'm a big fan of the "veil of ignorance".
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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5/22/2013 8:47:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/22/2013 5:53:02 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
Why is the human race in tune with knowing what is right and wrong? Why does our conscious tell us what is right and wrong?

Is it good is steal? No, don't we all know that? Say you stole 100 bucks, know ones knows you did the act, only you know. Would you feel that you should not have stolen the 100 bucks, even if no one else knew? If yes, why? If no, why?

I have a system of answers you might have, and I will question them once you have answered the situational question I have presented.

The reason we are in tune with morality is because our morality is generally defined by our moral intuition. Moral intuition evolved so that groups of animals could live together well.

However we are not always in tune with our morality. Some moral choices don't feel very moral. For example in my view, it is morally acceptable to torture one terrorist to save 1000 innocent civilians, however torturing that terrorist probably doesn't feel very moral when you are doing it.
Guy-In-Process
Posts: 36
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5/22/2013 9:26:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/22/2013 7:30:08 PM, Bullish wrote:
I believe that the Golden Rule usually holds for morality (but it's not necessarily all of morality). Anything else is subjective. Yes, we have the hold on morality.

At 5/22/2013 7:01:36 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
"Is it good is steal? No, don't we all know that? Say you stole 100 bucks, know ones knows you did the act, only you know. Would you feel that you should not have stolen the 100 bucks, even if no one else knew? If yes, why? If no, why?" -----ANSWER PLEASE! : )

Yes. I once saw $20 on the ground, and I was pretty sure it was my neighbor's because he just left. I pocketed it. No guilty conscience.

Finding is different from stealing. You kind of changed the question there.
Guy-In-Process
Posts: 36
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5/22/2013 9:40:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/22/2013 7:09:04 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 7:01:36 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:53:27 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:38:02 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:24:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:23:09 PM, drafterman wrote:
We aren't. Morality is in tune with us.

Bingo.
Yeah, bingo, morality is in tune with us, why? Answer the original question please, I would be grateful.

The question is loaded and dependent upon false premises. I gave the answer: we aren't in tune with morality. Morality is in tune with us because of evolution. We evolved morality as a necessary survival trait of being a social species.

"Is it good is steal? No, don't we all know that? Say you stole 100 bucks, know ones knows you did the act, only you know. Would you feel that you should not have stolen the 100 bucks, even if no one else knew? If yes, why? If no, why?" -----ANSWER PLEASE! : )

Yes, because I'm causing harm to someone which, as a member of a species that depends on mutual cooperation among its members (generally). The negative emotional response is there to act as a deterrent to working against this survival mechanism. Not to mention the result of operational conditioning of having grown up with such values taught to me.

Isn't evolution about you more than anyone else? Hence why people are selfish. Also known as what Dawkins named the Selfish Gene. If then you were to steal the 100 bucks and nobody knew about it, as in NO ONE. Then no one is harmed, no one knows, so no, your aren't causing any harm to anybody. And even if you were, why would it matter? You got the 100 bucks, that people who you stole it from doesn't, your happier, better off, your life is easier now, and their life is harder, which is a added bonus to you. Also you aren't causing harm to your 'species', not you are causing harm to that person you stole the money from. You say you are causing harm to your 'species' in an attempt to justify that evolution is some what good because you know that there is such a thing as good and evil, and since you have no other explanation for your conscious other than God and his authority, you haven't much other opinion for reason than to say evolution explains it all. If you ask me, you are blinded by weak reasoning to satisfy your self righteousness.

You also didn't answer my question, you just added a example of a time you took some cash.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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5/22/2013 9:50:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/22/2013 9:40:56 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 7:09:04 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 7:01:36 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:53:27 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:38:02 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:24:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:23:09 PM, drafterman wrote:
We aren't. Morality is in tune with us.

Bingo.
Yeah, bingo, morality is in tune with us, why? Answer the original question please, I would be grateful.

The question is loaded and dependent upon false premises. I gave the answer: we aren't in tune with morality. Morality is in tune with us because of evolution. We evolved morality as a necessary survival trait of being a social species.

"Is it good is steal? No, don't we all know that? Say you stole 100 bucks, know ones knows you did the act, only you know. Would you feel that you should not have stolen the 100 bucks, even if no one else knew? If yes, why? If no, why?" -----ANSWER PLEASE! : )

Yes, because I'm causing harm to someone which, as a member of a species that depends on mutual cooperation among its members (generally). The negative emotional response is there to act as a deterrent to working against this survival mechanism. Not to mention the result of operational conditioning of having grown up with such values taught to me.

Isn't evolution about you more than anyone else?

No.

Hence why people are selfish. Also known as what Dawkins named the Selfish Gene.

That's not what he meant.

If then you were to steal the 100 bucks and nobody knew about it, as in NO ONE. Then no one is harmed, no one knows, so no, your aren't causing any harm to anybody. And even if you were, why would it matter?

Because my ingrained biological responses aren't affected by those specifics.

You got the 100 bucks, that people who you stole it from doesn't, your happier, better off, your life is easier now, and their life is harder, which is a added bonus to you.

I'm not happier, I feel guilty for stealing and their life being harder isn't a bonus to me.

Also you aren't causing harm to your 'species', not you are causing harm to that person you stole the money from. You say you are causing harm to your 'species' in an attempt to justify that evolution is some what good because you know that there is such a thing as good and evil, and since you have no other explanation for your conscious other than God and his authority, you haven't much other opinion for reason than to say evolution explains it all. If you ask me, you are blinded by weak reasoning to satisfy your self righteousness.

Good thing I'm not asking you, then.


You also didn't answer my question, you just added a example of a time you took some cash.

No I didn't.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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5/22/2013 9:52:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I love how Christians think that morality means being obedient to an invisible sky fairy that is always secretly watching you.

Obedience =\= morality
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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5/22/2013 9:54:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/22/2013 9:40:56 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 7:09:04 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 7:01:36 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:53:27 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:38:02 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:24:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:23:09 PM, drafterman wrote:
We aren't. Morality is in tune with us.

Bingo.
Yeah, bingo, morality is in tune with us, why? Answer the original question please, I would be grateful.

The question is loaded and dependent upon false premises. I gave the answer: we aren't in tune with morality. Morality is in tune with us because of evolution. We evolved morality as a necessary survival trait of being a social species.

"Is it good is steal? No, don't we all know that? Say you stole 100 bucks, know ones knows you did the act, only you know. Would you feel that you should not have stolen the 100 bucks, even if no one else knew? If yes, why? If no, why?" -----ANSWER PLEASE! : )

Yes, because I'm causing harm to someone which, as a member of a species that depends on mutual cooperation among its members (generally). The negative emotional response is there to act as a deterrent to working against this survival mechanism. Not to mention the result of operational conditioning of having grown up with such values taught to me.

Isn't evolution about you more than anyone else? Hence why people are selfish. Also known as what Dawkins named the Selfish Gene. If then you were to steal the 100 bucks and nobody knew about it, as in NO ONE. Then no one is harmed, no one knows, so no, your aren't causing any harm to anybody. And even if you were, why would it matter? You got the 100 bucks, that people who you stole it from doesn't, your happier, better off, your life is easier now, and their life is harder, which is a added bonus to you. Also you aren't causing harm to your 'species', not you are causing harm to that person you stole the money from. You say you are causing harm to your 'species' in an attempt to justify that evolution is some what good because you know that there is such a thing as good and evil, and since you have no other explanation for your conscious other than God and his authority, you haven't much other opinion for reason than to say evolution explains it all. If you ask me, you are blinded by weak reasoning to satisfy your self righteousness.

You also didn't answer my question, you just added a example of a time you took some cash.

Lets say you live your entire life never doing good to others. How well are you going to do compared to someone who does good to others and to themselves. Likely the person who does not do good to others will become an outcast, so the one who sacrifices a little will get a lot.
Guy-In-Process
Posts: 36
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5/22/2013 10:16:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/22/2013 9:54:53 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 5/22/2013 9:40:56 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 7:09:04 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 7:01:36 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:53:27 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:38:02 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:24:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:23:09 PM, drafterman wrote:
We aren't. Morality is in tune with us.

Bingo.
Yeah, bingo, morality is in tune with us, why? Answer the original question please, I would be grateful.

The question is loaded and dependent upon false premises. I gave the answer: we aren't in tune with morality. Morality is in tune with us because of evolution. We evolved morality as a necessary survival trait of being a social species.

"Is it good is steal? No, don't we all know that? Say you stole 100 bucks, know ones knows you did the act, only you know. Would you feel that you should not have stolen the 100 bucks, even if no one else knew? If yes, why? If no, why?" -----ANSWER PLEASE! : )

Yes, because I'm causing harm to someone which, as a member of a species that depends on mutual cooperation among its members (generally). The negative emotional response is there to act as a deterrent to working against this survival mechanism. Not to mention the result of operational conditioning of having grown up with such values taught to me.

Isn't evolution about you more than anyone else? Hence why people are selfish. Also known as what Dawkins named the Selfish Gene. If then you were to steal the 100 bucks and nobody knew about it, as in NO ONE. Then no one is harmed, no one knows, so no, your aren't causing any harm to anybody. And even if you were, why would it matter? You got the 100 bucks, that people who you stole it from doesn't, your happier, better off, your life is easier now, and their life is harder, which is a added bonus to you. Also you aren't causing harm to your 'species', not you are causing harm to that person you stole the money from. You say you are causing harm to your 'species' in an attempt to justify that evolution is some what good because you know that there is such a thing as good and evil, and since you have no other explanation for your conscious other than God and his authority, you haven't much other opinion for reason than to say evolution explains it all. If you ask me, you are blinded by weak reasoning to satisfy your self righteousness.

You also didn't answer my question, you just added a example of a time you took some cash.

Lets say you live your entire life never doing good to others. How well are you going to do compared to someone who does good to others and to themselves. Likely the person who does not do good to others will become an outcast, so the one who sacrifices a little will get a lot.

Not necessarily not doing good to others, but not necessarily doing bad either. If there is a 100 bucks, take it, spend it, job done. It is funny how those who believe in evolution say that animals go by the survival of the fit, and then when referring to humanity, we all got to help out each other. Okay, ask yourself this. If doing bad to one person will effect all of society (which is totally absurd, as it is so clear that it would probably only affect like 3 people, not everyone is society) then why do people help people by putting themselves out there for others unnecessarily? Why do people do unnecessary good to others, helping out a homeless man by giving him change for example. It doesn't help society, just the homeless man. If you say doing one bad thing to another will affect society negatively out weighing what you get back (so absurd) the surely help others, doing good to others, doesn't affect you or society. Answer me this?
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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5/22/2013 11:26:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/22/2013 10:16:55 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 9:54:53 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 5/22/2013 9:40:56 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 7:09:04 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 7:01:36 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:53:27 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:38:02 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:24:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:23:09 PM, drafterman wrote:
We aren't. Morality is in tune with us.

Bingo.
Yeah, bingo, morality is in tune with us, why? Answer the original question please, I would be grateful.

The question is loaded and dependent upon false premises. I gave the answer: we aren't in tune with morality. Morality is in tune with us because of evolution. We evolved morality as a necessary survival trait of being a social species.

"Is it good is steal? No, don't we all know that? Say you stole 100 bucks, know ones knows you did the act, only you know. Would you feel that you should not have stolen the 100 bucks, even if no one else knew? If yes, why? If no, why?" -----ANSWER PLEASE! : )

Yes, because I'm causing harm to someone which, as a member of a species that depends on mutual cooperation among its members (generally). The negative emotional response is there to act as a deterrent to working against this survival mechanism. Not to mention the result of operational conditioning of having grown up with such values taught to me.

Isn't evolution about you more than anyone else? Hence why people are selfish. Also known as what Dawkins named the Selfish Gene. If then you were to steal the 100 bucks and nobody knew about it, as in NO ONE. Then no one is harmed, no one knows, so no, your aren't causing any harm to anybody. And even if you were, why would it matter? You got the 100 bucks, that people who you stole it from doesn't, your happier, better off, your life is easier now, and their life is harder, which is a added bonus to you. Also you aren't causing harm to your 'species', not you are causing harm to that person you stole the money from. You say you are causing harm to your 'species' in an attempt to justify that evolution is some what good because you know that there is such a thing as good and evil, and since you have no other explanation for your conscious other than God and his authority, you haven't much other opinion for reason than to say evolution explains it all. If you ask me, you are blinded by weak reasoning to satisfy your self righteousness.

You also didn't answer my question, you just added a example of a time you took some cash.

Lets say you live your entire life never doing good to others. How well are you going to do compared to someone who does good to others and to themselves. Likely the person who does not do good to others will become an outcast, so the one who sacrifices a little will get a lot.

Not necessarily not doing good to others, but not necessarily doing bad either. If there is a 100 bucks, take it, spend it, job done. It is funny how those who believe in evolution say that animals go by the survival of the fit, and then when referring to humanity, we all got to help out each other.

Evolution is all about our own survival, yes, but sometimes to survive we need to work with other people. This takes giving a little to the group in order to ensure better survival. Think about the hunger games movie. You are more likely to survive the games if you banded with other contestants first, rather than trying to go at it all on your own.

Okay, ask yourself this. If doing bad to one person will effect all of society (which is totally absurd, as it is so clear that it would probably only affect like 3 people, not everyone is society) then why do people help people by putting themselves out there for others unnecessarily? Why do people do unnecessary good to others, helping out a homeless man by giving him change for example. It doesn't help society, just the homeless man. If you say doing one bad thing to another will affect society negatively out weighing what you get back (so absurd) the surely help others, doing good to others, doesn't affect you or society. Answer me this?

Evolution cannot control our every action because all it controls are our genes and our genes only are part of what makes us what we are. However genes can influence how we act in general. So the reason that we do good unnecessarily is because the same genes that help us fit in a society well (this enhances our survival) also encourage us to do unnecessary acts of goodness. Since these genes are overall beneficial, they are in general kept.
StevenDixon
Posts: 178
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5/23/2013 12:05:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/22/2013 7:50:57 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:53:27 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:38:02 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:24:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:23:09 PM, drafterman wrote:
We aren't. Morality is in tune with us.

Bingo.
Yeah, bingo, morality is in tune with us, why? Answer the original question please, I would be grateful.

The question is loaded and dependent upon false premises. I gave the answer: we aren't in tune with morality. Morality is in tune with us because of evolution. We evolved morality as a necessary survival trait of being a social species.

That's no answer, "morality evolved" doesn't explain why we know right from wrong. An "evolution of the gaps" argument isn't any stronger than a "God of the gaps" argument.

We don't "know" right from wrong, we attribute right and wrong based on values and emotions.
Guy-In-Process
Posts: 36
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5/23/2013 10:41:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/22/2013 11:26:56 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 5/22/2013 10:16:55 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 9:54:53 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 5/22/2013 9:40:56 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 7:09:04 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 7:01:36 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:53:27 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:38:02 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:24:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:23:09 PM, drafterman wrote:
We aren't. Morality is in tune with us.

Bingo.
Yeah, bingo, morality is in tune with us, why? Answer the original question please, I would be grateful.

The question is loaded and dependent upon false premises. I gave the answer: we aren't in tune with morality. Morality is in tune with us because of evolution. We evolved morality as a necessary survival trait of being a social species.

"Is it good is steal? No, don't we all know that? Say you stole 100 bucks, know ones knows you did the act, only you know. Would you feel that you should not have stolen the 100 bucks, even if no one else knew? If yes, why? If no, why?" -----ANSWER PLEASE! : )

Yes, because I'm causing harm to someone which, as a member of a species that depends on mutual cooperation among its members (generally). The negative emotional response is there to act as a deterrent to working against this survival mechanism. Not to mention the result of operational conditioning of having grown up with such values taught to me.

Isn't evolution about you more than anyone else? Hence why people are selfish. Also known as what Dawkins named the Selfish Gene. If then you were to steal the 100 bucks and nobody knew about it, as in NO ONE. Then no one is harmed, no one knows, so no, your aren't causing any harm to anybody. And even if you were, why would it matter? You got the 100 bucks, that people who you stole it from doesn't, your happier, better off, your life is easier now, and their life is harder, which is a added bonus to you. Also you aren't causing harm to your 'species', not you are causing harm to that person you stole the money from. You say you are causing harm to your 'species' in an attempt to justify that evolution is some what good because you know that there is such a thing as good and evil, and since you have no other explanation for your conscious other than God and his authority, you haven't much other opinion for reason than to say evolution explains it all. If you ask me, you are blinded by weak reasoning to satisfy your self righteousness.

You also didn't answer my question, you just added a example of a time you took some cash.

Lets say you live your entire life never doing good to others. How well are you going to do compared to someone who does good to others and to themselves. Likely the person who does not do good to others will become an outcast, so the one who sacrifices a little will get a lot.

Not necessarily not doing good to others, but not necessarily doing bad either. If there is a 100 bucks, take it, spend it, job done. It is funny how those who believe in evolution say that animals go by the survival of the fit, and then when referring to humanity, we all got to help out each other.

Evolution is all about our own survival, yes, but sometimes to survive we need to work with other people. This takes giving a little to the group in order to ensure better survival. Think about the hunger games movie. You are more likely to survive the games if you banded with other contestants first, rather than trying to go at it all on your own.

Okay, ask yourself this. If doing bad to one person will effect all of society (which is totally absurd, as it is so clear that it would probably only affect like 3 people, not everyone is society) then why do people help people by putting themselves out there for others unnecessarily? Why do people do unnecessary good to others, helping out a homeless man by giving him change for example. It doesn't help society, just the homeless man. If you say doing one bad thing to another will affect society negatively out weighing what you get back (so absurd) the surely help others, doing good to others, doesn't affect you or society. Answer me this?

Evolution cannot control our every action because all it controls are our genes and our genes only are part of what makes us what we are. However genes can influence how we act in general. So the reason that we do good unnecessarily is because the same genes that help us fit in a society well (this enhances our survival) also encourage us to do unnecessary acts of goodness. Since these genes are overall beneficial, they are in general kept.

So if my genes tell me or are programed so that I am a kind murderer, who gives to the poor, then murders them soon after, then that is what I am programed to think is good. 'But murder is wrong because it doesn't conform with society.' Well clearly it does, people kill others these days don't they? 'But it's wrong.' I don't think it is, I wouldn't do it if I thought it was wrong. 'Your genes are abnormal, your screwed up.' No, I'm just not part of the statistical average. 'Yeah therefore, what you are doing is wrong.' No statistical average doesn't determine what is right and what is wrong...for goodness sake, watch the video...
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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5/23/2013 1:36:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/22/2013 7:57:32 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 7:50:57 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:53:27 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:38:02 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:24:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:23:09 PM, drafterman wrote:
We aren't. Morality is in tune with us.

Bingo.
Yeah, bingo, morality is in tune with us, why? Answer the original question please, I would be grateful.

The question is loaded and dependent upon false premises. I gave the answer: we aren't in tune with morality. Morality is in tune with us because of evolution. We evolved morality as a necessary survival trait of being a social species.

That's no answer, "morality evolved" doesn't explain why we know right from wrong. An "evolution of the gaps" argument isn't any stronger than a "God of the gaps" argument.

Evolution is the explanation. We have morality because we evolved it.

I see, so evolution explains all things? The simple universal answer to any and all questions is "because it evolved".

Wow, that's so...scientific.

I guess I understand everything now, thanks.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
drhead
Posts: 1,475
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5/23/2013 1:59:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/22/2013 5:53:02 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
Why is the human race in tune with knowing what is right and wrong? Why does our conscious tell us what is right and wrong?

Is it good is steal? No, don't we all know that? Say you stole 100 bucks, know ones knows you did the act, only you know. Would you feel that you should not have stolen the 100 bucks, even if no one else knew? If yes, why? If no, why?

I have a system of answers you might have, and I will question them once you have answered the situational question I have presented.

Usually it is because we see theft, we identify the oppressor and the person in distress, we empathize with the victim, and flag theft as immoral in our minds.
Wall of Fail

"You reject religion... calling it a sickness, to what ends??? Are you a Homosexual??" - Dogknox
"For me, Evolution is a zombie theory. I mean imaginary cartoons and wishful thinking support it?" - Dragonfang
"There are no mental health benefits of atheism. It is devoid of rational thinking and mental protection." - Gabrian
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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5/23/2013 2:15:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/23/2013 1:36:20 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/22/2013 7:57:32 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 7:50:57 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:53:27 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:38:02 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:24:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:23:09 PM, drafterman wrote:
We aren't. Morality is in tune with us.

Bingo.
Yeah, bingo, morality is in tune with us, why? Answer the original question please, I would be grateful.

The question is loaded and dependent upon false premises. I gave the answer: we aren't in tune with morality. Morality is in tune with us because of evolution. We evolved morality as a necessary survival trait of being a social species.

That's no answer, "morality evolved" doesn't explain why we know right from wrong. An "evolution of the gaps" argument isn't any stronger than a "God of the gaps" argument.

Evolution is the explanation. We have morality because we evolved it.

I see, so evolution explains all things? The simple universal answer to any and all questions is "because it evolved".

Wow, that's so...scientific.

I guess I understand everything now, thanks.

Do you think extrapolating my answer to cover areas outside the scope of this conversation, without any indication that I intended that (ether through semantics or context) is honest? Appropriate? Constructive?
drhead
Posts: 1,475
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5/23/2013 2:42:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/23/2013 1:36:20 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/22/2013 7:57:32 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 7:50:57 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:53:27 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:38:02 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:24:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:23:09 PM, drafterman wrote:
We aren't. Morality is in tune with us.

Bingo.
Yeah, bingo, morality is in tune with us, why? Answer the original question please, I would be grateful.

The question is loaded and dependent upon false premises. I gave the answer: we aren't in tune with morality. Morality is in tune with us because of evolution. We evolved morality as a necessary survival trait of being a social species.

That's no answer, "morality evolved" doesn't explain why we know right from wrong. An "evolution of the gaps" argument isn't any stronger than a "God of the gaps" argument.

Evolution is the explanation. We have morality because we evolved it.

I see, so evolution explains all things? The simple universal answer to any and all questions is "because it evolved".

Wow, that's so...scientific.

I guess I understand everything now, thanks.

It explains things because it is a scientific theory that applies universally to the origin of the traits of biological organisms. You'd have to disprove evolution outright, and come up with a new theory that is also testable and has predictive power. To disprove evolution, you'd have to show that mutations do not occur, are not reflected in the phenotype, aren't beneficial, aren't influenced by natural selection, or can't result in the creation of new species when populations are put in reproductive isolation in different environments over a long period of time. We have evidence of all of these happening.

Intelligent Design doesn't fit this since there is no way to test it. Propose an experiment that could result in being able to affirm or deny the existence of a creator, and I will retract this statement.

In this particular case, you also have the burden of showing that morality could not arise from evolution by a) showing that the theory of evolution is false (and please at least mention me in your Nobel Prize acceptance speech) or b) showing how evolution could not possibly affect our phenotype in such a way as to give something similar to morality.

If you cannot show that evolution certainly had no role in morality, you must prove that something else certainly did it beyond any doubt.
Wall of Fail

"You reject religion... calling it a sickness, to what ends??? Are you a Homosexual??" - Dogknox
"For me, Evolution is a zombie theory. I mean imaginary cartoons and wishful thinking support it?" - Dragonfang
"There are no mental health benefits of atheism. It is devoid of rational thinking and mental protection." - Gabrian
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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5/23/2013 3:17:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/23/2013 2:15:36 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/23/2013 1:36:20 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/22/2013 7:57:32 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 7:50:57 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:53:27 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:38:02 PM, Guy-In-Process wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:24:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/22/2013 6:23:09 PM, drafterman wrote:
We aren't. Morality is in tune with us.

Bingo.
Yeah, bingo, morality is in tune with us, why? Answer the original question please, I would be grateful.

The question is loaded and dependent upon false premises. I gave the answer: we aren't in tune with morality. Morality is in tune with us because of evolution. We evolved morality as a necessary survival trait of being a social species.

That's no answer, "morality evolved" doesn't explain why we know right from wrong. An "evolution of the gaps" argument isn't any stronger than a "God of the gaps" argument.

Evolution is the explanation. We have morality because we evolved it.

I see, so evolution explains all things? The simple universal answer to any and all questions is "because it evolved".

Wow, that's so...scientific.

I guess I understand everything now, thanks.

Do you think extrapolating my answer to cover areas outside the scope of this conversation, without any indication that I intended that (ether through semantics or context) is honest? Appropriate? Constructive?

Allow me to explain.

Because it evolved.

Does that answer your question?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater