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How is faith possibly a good thing?

Kleptin
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11/28/2009 9:34:01 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
How is reason definitively good?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Freedomaniac
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11/28/2009 9:36:17 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Cause that's what the voices tell me, now shut-up.
I am a moosepotomus, here me quack! *Grr, ruff, moo*

I am my own God and the free market is my Jesus.

http://freedomaniac.wordpress.com...
Reasoning
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11/28/2009 9:40:11 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/28/2009 9:36:17 PM, Freedomaniac wrote:
Cause that's what the voices tell me, now shut-up.

Then you have faith in what "the voices" tell you.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Freedomaniac
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11/28/2009 9:43:01 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/28/2009 9:40:11 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 11/28/2009 9:36:17 PM, Freedomaniac wrote:
Cause that's what the voices tell me, now shut-up.

Then you have faith in what "the voices" tell you.

Not if they prove to me that they are at least almost always right, in which case it becomes reason.
I am a moosepotomus, here me quack! *Grr, ruff, moo*

I am my own God and the free market is my Jesus.

http://freedomaniac.wordpress.com...
johngriswald
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11/28/2009 9:45:42 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/28/2009 9:02:05 PM, Freedomaniac wrote:
Is it not the opposite of reason?

No Faith is an additive to incomplete evidence about a subject that currently does not have complete evidence.

Atheism, Christianity, Islam, etc. All are beliefs because there is no incontrovertible evidence on the subject. Thus faith is exercised in each one to cope for the lack of proof.

To have no faith is to believe in nothing.
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Xer
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11/28/2009 9:50:09 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/28/2009 9:45:42 PM, johngriswald wrote:
Atheism, Christianity, Islam, etc. All are beliefs because there is no incontrovertible evidence on the subject. Thus faith is exercised in each one to cope for the lack of proof.

Atheism is a lack of belief. It isn't a belief, unless we are talking about Gnostic Atheism.

To have no faith is to believe in nothing.

That's not true at all.
gr33k_fr33k5
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11/29/2009 6:44:31 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/28/2009 9:45:42 PM, johngriswald wrote:
At 11/28/2009 9:02:05 PM, Freedomaniac wrote:
Is it not the opposite of reason?

No Faith is an additive to incomplete evidence about a subject that currently does not have complete evidence.

Atheism, Christianity, Islam, etc. All are beliefs because there is no incontrovertible evidence on the subject. Thus faith is exercised in each one to cope for the lack of proof.

To have no faith is to believe in nothing.

does science or reason ever provide absolute truth? . . .. i.e. spontaneous gen. believed for thousands of years but proved wrong . .. . without faith there can be no absolutes. . . ..
I am free, free indeed!

ignorance is bliss
banker
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11/29/2009 3:10:27 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Freedom it apears you try to have fun and test how idiotic a post could be and still bring leplies... But its sad that after a while everyone will catch up on your act and ignore you...!
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
leet4A1
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11/29/2009 3:13:50 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/29/2009 3:10:27 PM, banker wrote:
Freedom it apears you try to have fun and test how idiotic a post could be and still bring leplies... But its sad that after a while everyone will catch up on your act and ignore you...!

Lol, this obvious act of self-reference furthers my opinion that banker is a troll, probably a regular user here having a laugh with a fake account.
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
Volkov
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11/29/2009 3:18:22 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Faith is a cornerstone of modern human relations. You have faith in the trustworthiness of your family. You have faith that taxi-cab driver will drive you to the proper place, and not rip you off. You have faith that your country won't invade another for no reason whatsoever.

We're not always correct as to where our faith is put, but without that faith, society would just come to a standstill. Back in the hunter-gatherer days, "faith" wasn't needed so much because you knew everyone and everyone knew you, and decisions about who to trust to do certain things were easy, and based on reason and experience. That isn't the case today - you need to take a chance, have some faith, and if all turns out well, hurrah!
DevinKing
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11/29/2009 4:03:10 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
There are six definitions of faith. Which one are we discussing?

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

I think that without knowing what we are talking about it is pointless to debate. Freedomaniac: I believe the burden is on you to provide this definition.
After demonstrating his existence with complete certainty with the proposition "I think, therefore I am", Descartes walks into a bar, sitting next to a gorgeous priest. The priest asks Descartes, "Would you like a drink?" Descartes responds, "I think not," and then proceeds to vanish in a puff of illogic.
comoncents
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11/29/2009 4:32:54 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/29/2009 3:18:22 PM, Volkov wrote:
Faith is a cornerstone of modern human relations. You have faith in the trustworthiness of your family. You have faith that taxi-cab driver will drive you to the proper place, and not rip you off. You have faith that your country won't invade another for no reason whatsoever.

We're not always correct as to where our faith is put, but without that faith, society would just come to a standstill. Back in the hunter-gatherer days, "faith" wasn't needed so much because you knew everyone and everyone knew you, and decisions about who to trust to do certain things were easy, and based on reason and experience. That isn't the case today - you need to take a chance, have some faith, and if all turns out well, hurrah!

What he said.
crackofdawn_Jr
Posts: 1,350
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11/29/2009 4:35:02 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/28/2009 9:50:09 PM, Nags wrote:
At 11/28/2009 9:45:42 PM, johngriswald wrote:
Atheism, Christianity, Islam, etc. All are beliefs because there is no incontrovertible evidence on the subject. Thus faith is exercised in each one to cope for the lack of proof.

Atheism is a lack of belief. It isn't a belief, unless we are talking about Gnostic Atheism.
Atheism is a belief in there being no god(s)/deity(s).
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics"
-Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine success"

"Therefore love moderately. Long love doth so.
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow."
- William Shakespeare

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."
- Adolf Hitler
Kleptin
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11/29/2009 4:37:27 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/28/2009 9:43:01 PM, Freedomaniac wrote:
At 11/28/2009 9:40:11 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 11/28/2009 9:36:17 PM, Freedomaniac wrote:
Cause that's what the voices tell me, now shut-up.

Then you have faith in what "the voices" tell you.

Not if they prove to me that they are at least almost always right, in which case it becomes reason.

Unless the probability is 100% then you are still exhibiting faith.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
johngriswald
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11/29/2009 4:37:32 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/28/2009 9:50:09 PM, Nags wrote:
At 11/28/2009 9:45:42 PM, johngriswald wrote:
Atheism, Christianity, Islam, etc. All are beliefs because there is no incontrovertible evidence on the subject. Thus faith is exercised in each one to cope for the lack of proof.

Atheism is a lack of belief. It isn't a belief, unless we are talking about Gnostic Atheism.

Wrong, Atheism is a belief the same as any religion. Unless it is a fact, it is a belief.

That's not true at all.
Name something that you believe in but have no faith in.
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johngriswald
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11/29/2009 4:38:45 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/29/2009 6:44:31 AM, gr33k_fr33k5 wrote:

does science or reason ever provide absolute truth?

Absolutely, earth is round, we rotate around the sun, etc. All are examples of absolute truth proven by both science and reason.
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GeoLaureate8
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11/29/2009 5:24:06 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/29/2009 4:35:02 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
Atheism is a belief in there being no god(s)/deity(s).

I don't believe in fairies. I don't believe in unicorns. You're saying that those statements are beliefs? That makes no sense.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
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11/29/2009 5:31:42 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/28/2009 9:45:42 PM, johngriswald wrote:
To have no faith is to believe in nothing.

At 11/29/2009 4:38:45 PM, johngriswald wrote:
Absolutely, earth is round, we rotate around the sun, etc. All are examples of absolute truth proven by both science and reason.

You just contradicted yourself. You said that everything requires faith, yet you just gave examples of absolute, proven truth that requires no faith.

And no, religious faith is not a good thing. Faith in, say the trustworthyness of your wife, or faith that things will turn out good, is a good thing. Religious faith requires you to believe with uncertainty that something is true, while regular faith is just an optimistic view of the future, a future that has yet to happen.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
AtheistExile
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11/30/2009 5:27:19 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
If you have faith, you don't need the truth. Indeed, if you weren't rejecting the truth, you wouldn't need faith!
Jim Ashby
http://AtheistExile.com...

"Knowledge is a relatively safe addiction . . . that is, until it becomes idolatry." ~Anonymous

"The Abrahamic religions have been THE most persistently divisive influence in the history of mankind." ~Jim Ashby
crackofdawn_Jr
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11/30/2009 1:31:05 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/29/2009 5:24:06 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/29/2009 4:35:02 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
Atheism is a belief in there being no god(s)/deity(s).

I don't believe in fairies. I don't believe in unicorns. You're saying that those statements are beliefs? That makes no sense.

Yes those are beliefs, and it does make sense. How are you going to prove to me that unicorns don't exist? What about fairies? Perhaps you could prove that magic is impossible, but that doesn't discount there being small, flying, humanoid creatures.
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics"
-Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine success"

"Therefore love moderately. Long love doth so.
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow."
- William Shakespeare

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."
- Adolf Hitler
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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11/30/2009 2:02:15 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 1:31:05 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 11/29/2009 5:24:06 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/29/2009 4:35:02 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
Atheism is a belief in there being no god(s)/deity(s).

I don't believe in fairies. I don't believe in unicorns. You're saying that those statements are beliefs? That makes no sense.

Yes those are beliefs, and it does make sense.

Let's put that in logical terms. You assert that non-belief = belief. Or B = ~B

Logical contradiction.

How are you going to prove to me that unicorns don't exist? What about fairies? Perhaps you could prove that magic is impossible, but that doesn't discount there being small, flying, humanoid creatures.

You cannot prove a negative claim. You can only provide evidence for things that exist. You can't provide evidence for nonexistence.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
crackofdawn_Jr
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11/30/2009 2:08:12 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 2:02:15 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/30/2009 1:31:05 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 11/29/2009 5:24:06 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/29/2009 4:35:02 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
Atheism is a belief in there being no god(s)/deity(s).

I don't believe in fairies. I don't believe in unicorns. You're saying that those statements are beliefs? That makes no sense.

Yes those are beliefs, and it does make sense.

Let's put that in logical terms. You assert that non-belief = belief. Or B = ~B
No I'm asserting that a belief = belief. Or B = B
Logical contradiction.
If you're equation was true, then you'd be correct.
How are you going to prove to me that unicorns don't exist? What about fairies? Perhaps you could prove that magic is impossible, but that doesn't discount there being small, flying, humanoid creatures.

You cannot prove a negative claim. You can only provide evidence for things that exist. You can't provide evidence for nonexistence.

Yes you can provide evidence for nonexistence in certain cases.

For instance, you can prove that there is no element that is lighter than Hydrogen as Hydrogen is the smallest possible element.
You can prove that you are not a piece of wood. You can compare your characteristics with that of wood and prove that you do not exist as wood.

You're right that you can't prove the nonexistence of everything. This means that you believe that something does or doesn't exist. Like God.
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics"
-Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine success"

"Therefore love moderately. Long love doth so.
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow."
- William Shakespeare

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."
- Adolf Hitler
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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11/30/2009 2:20:28 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
@crackofdawnjr

You keep saying that non-belief in fairies is a belief. Which can be represented as B = ~B. Bottom line. Non-belief does NOT equal belief.

As far as proving nonexistence, you went way off topic. Proving that I'm not made of wood is not the same as what were discussing. I'm saying that you can't prove absolute nonexistence. You can say that there are absolutely no fairies in your backpack, but you can't say there are absolutely no fairies in the Universe. Do you follow?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
crackofdawn_Jr
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11/30/2009 2:26:09 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 2:20:28 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
@crackofdawnjr

You keep saying that non-belief in fairies is a belief. Which can be represented as B = ~B. Bottom line. Non-belief does NOT equal belief.
No, you don't have a non-belief in the existence of fairies. People have a belief that faires don't exist.
As far as proving nonexistence, you went way off topic. Proving that I'm not made of wood is not the same as what were discussing. I'm saying that you can't prove absolute nonexistence. You can say that there are absolutely no fairies in your backpack, but you can't say there are absolutely no fairies in the Universe. Do you follow?

Yes, I follow, and you're right about me getting off topic there.
However, you just proved my point. You can't prove that there are absolutely no fairies in the Universe. You can only believe that there are none in the Universe.
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics"
-Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine success"

"Therefore love moderately. Long love doth so.
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow."
- William Shakespeare

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."
- Adolf Hitler
johngriswald
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11/30/2009 2:50:47 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/29/2009 5:24:06 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/29/2009 4:35:02 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
Atheism is a belief in there being no god(s)/deity(s).

I don't believe in fairies. I don't believe in unicorns. You're saying that those statements are beliefs? That makes no sense.

If you believe that fairies don't exist, then yes, that is known as a belief.

If you have personally examined every inch of the universe and found that fairies do not exist, then you know fairies do not exist. Until the time that it is proven, it is a belief.
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johngriswald
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11/30/2009 2:54:02 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 2:02:15 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Let's put that in logical terms. You assert that non-belief = belief. Or B = ~B

Logical contradiction.

Lets put it in logical terms

Belief = Opinion for or against something that has no conclusive proof. If it has conclusive proof then it is fact.

If you believe that unicorns do not exist then it is a belief
If you believe that unicorns do exist then it is a belief
If you know that unicorns do not exist because you have absolute proof that they don't exist, then it is a fact.
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johngriswald
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11/30/2009 2:55:24 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 5:27:19 AM, AtheistExile wrote:
If you have faith, you don't need the truth. Indeed, if you weren't rejecting the truth, you wouldn't need faith!

Your premise that every issue and question has a certain and concrete proof is where you fail.
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Cody_Franklin
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11/30/2009 2:56:28 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
A belief doesn't necessitate a positive claim. You can have a negative belief - for example, atheism can be defined as a lack of belief in a God, or a belief in the nonexistence of a God.

Basically, disbelief in a positive claim is fairly equivalent to belief in a corresponding negative claim.

Example: I don't believe that the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists = I believe that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist.

It's all a matter of where you place the negative.
johngriswald
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11/30/2009 3:03:29 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 2:20:28 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I'm saying that you can't prove absolute nonexistence. You can say that there are absolutely no fairies in your backpack, but you can't say there are absolutely no fairies in the Universe. Do you follow?

Exactly which proves my point.

Fairies exist in the universe is a belief until fairies are discovered
Fairies do not exist in the universe is a belief until the entire universe has been scoured and it is proven that no fairies exist.
However a statement that such as no fairies exist in my backpack is a fact because you have and can prove that fairies do not indeed exist in your backpack.

Thus atheism is a belief.
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