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The Punishment of Apostates in Islam

Talib.ul-Ilm
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5/25/2013 9:47:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm going to argue that the punishment of death or expulsion of apostates in Islam is justified.

Under the presupposition that Islam is the true religion, and is also a state, the saving of souls from the eternal Hellfire and keeping the Muslim community pure of impure elements is of great concern, and the act of apostasy is the equivalent of treason.

Apostates themselves are a living statement of disbelief in Allah and His Messenger and the implied falsehood of Islam. Many who leave the religion were poorly educated on what Islam is, and make false claims and accusations against the religion, whether on their own accord or through enticement. Islam is both a religion and a state, therefore to leave the religion is to be a traitor to the state. The saving of souls from eternal damnation is one of the main goals of Islam.

Therefore the killing or expelling of apostates eliminates a living statement of disbelief in Allah and His Messenger and the implied falsehood of Islam. It eliminates the possibility of false claims and accusations against the religion. Also, it rids the state of Islam of traitors. And the possibility of impure elements within the religion and state of Islam leading individual souls to eternal damnation in the Hellfire is non-existent.

The statement of...

"And the possibility of impure elements within the religion and state of Islam leading individual souls to eternal damnation in the Hellfire is non-existent."

...Is one of the most important.

And on a side note, it all but removes the possibility of dissension and disunity within the Muslim Ummah.
Talib.ul-Ilm
Posts: 203
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5/25/2013 9:58:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/25/2013 9:54:05 PM, Mirza wrote:
Hello Ma'am, save some of it for our debate!

Hehe. I'm male. And you wanted to debate on this? I'd love that. I would go further in the debate and suggest that Muslims living in Dar ul-Kufr, due to their having no state, should apply excommunication in place of expulsion as there is no state, killing is of apostates is not allowed according to the laws of the land, and that all of the same benefits apply.
YYW
Posts: 36,303
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5/25/2013 10:11:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/25/2013 9:47:49 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
I'm going to argue that the punishment of death or expulsion of apostates in Islam is justified.

Under the presupposition that Islam is the true religion, and is also a state, the saving of souls from the eternal Hellfire and keeping the Muslim community pure of impure elements is of great concern, and the act of apostasy is the equivalent of treason.

Apostates themselves are a living statement of disbelief in Allah and His Messenger and the implied falsehood of Islam. Many who leave the religion were poorly educated on what Islam is, and make false claims and accusations against the religion, whether on their own accord or through enticement. Islam is both a religion and a state, therefore to leave the religion is to be a traitor to the state. The saving of souls from eternal damnation is one of the main goals of Islam.

Therefore the killing or expelling of apostates eliminates a living statement of disbelief in Allah and His Messenger and the implied falsehood of Islam. It eliminates the possibility of false claims and accusations against the religion. Also, it rids the state of Islam of traitors. And the possibility of impure elements within the religion and state of Islam leading individual souls to eternal damnation in the Hellfire is non-existent.

The statement of...

"And the possibility of impure elements within the religion and state of Islam leading individual souls to eternal damnation in the Hellfire is non-existent."

...Is one of the most important.

And on a side note, it all but removes the possibility of dissension and disunity within the Muslim Ummah.

If people keep their faith only out of fear of execution, the religion to which they belong is meaningless. One can argue the utility silencing opposition within the framework of any organized hierarchal structure, but the value of doing so is nonexistent outside of that regime (and yes, I'm implying that religion becomes a regime when the penalty for leaving one's faith is death).

But within an Islamic framework, if the eternal consequences of apostasy are what you claim they are, then even if it were the case that people who abandon Islam present a threat to Islam, the fear of eternal consequence ought to be sufficient alone to keep others from also leaving Islam.

You've proven nothing of the justice of killing apostates, and there's no way you could. The argument you've put forward is at best nonsense, at worst disgraceful.
Tsar of DDO
Talib.ul-Ilm
Posts: 203
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5/25/2013 10:19:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/25/2013 10:11:22 PM, YYW wrote:
At 5/25/2013 9:47:49 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
I'm going to argue that the punishment of death or expulsion of apostates in Islam is justified.

Under the presupposition that Islam is the true religion, and is also a state, the saving of souls from the eternal Hellfire and keeping the Muslim community pure of impure elements is of great concern, and the act of apostasy is the equivalent of treason.

Apostates themselves are a living statement of disbelief in Allah and His Messenger and the implied falsehood of Islam. Many who leave the religion were poorly educated on what Islam is, and make false claims and accusations against the religion, whether on their own accord or through enticement. Islam is both a religion and a state, therefore to leave the religion is to be a traitor to the state. The saving of souls from eternal damnation is one of the main goals of Islam.

Therefore the killing or expelling of apostates eliminates a living statement of disbelief in Allah and His Messenger and the implied falsehood of Islam. It eliminates the possibility of false claims and accusations against the religion. Also, it rids the state of Islam of traitors. And the possibility of impure elements within the religion and state of Islam leading individual souls to eternal damnation in the Hellfire is non-existent.

The statement of...

"And the possibility of impure elements within the religion and state of Islam leading individual souls to eternal damnation in the Hellfire is non-existent."

...Is one of the most important.

And on a side note, it all but removes the possibility of dissension and disunity within the Muslim Ummah.

If people keep their faith only out of fear of execution, the religion to which they belong is meaningless. One can argue the utility silencing opposition within the framework of any organized hierarchal structure, but the value of doing so is nonexistent outside of that regime (and yes, I'm implying that religion becomes a regime when the penalty for leaving one's faith is death).

But within an Islamic framework, if the eternal consequences of apostasy are what you claim they are, then even if it were the case that people who abandon Islam present a threat to Islam, the fear of eternal consequence ought to be sufficient alone to keep others from also leaving Islam.

You've proven nothing of the justice of killing apostates, and there's no way you could. The argument you've put forward is at best nonsense, at worst disgraceful.

You're ignoring the presupposition and the many threats/benefits I named.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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5/25/2013 10:23:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/25/2013 9:47:49 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:

Under the presupposition that Islam is the true religion,

Well, yes, but the same can be said for every decision. Maybe the son of sam, or Charles Manson, were right! If we assume they were, then their actions are totally legit...
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Talib.ul-Ilm
Posts: 203
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5/25/2013 10:23:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/25/2013 10:23:04 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 5/25/2013 9:47:49 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:

Under the presupposition that Islam is the true religion,

Well, yes, but the same can be said for every decision. Maybe the son of sam, or Charles Manson, were right! If we assume they were, then their actions are totally legit...

That was in a specific context as far as the eternal damnation of souls to the Hellfire.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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5/25/2013 10:26:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/25/2013 10:23:57 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:23:04 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 5/25/2013 9:47:49 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:

Under the presupposition that Islam is the true religion,

Well, yes, but the same can be said for every decision. Maybe the son of sam, or Charles Manson, were right! If we assume they were, then their actions are totally legit...

That was in a specific context as far as the eternal damnation of souls to the Hellfire.

So? The point here is the arrogance. "We can kill who we want, because we're right!"
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
Talib.ul-Ilm
Posts: 203
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5/25/2013 10:27:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/25/2013 10:26:10 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:23:57 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:23:04 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 5/25/2013 9:47:49 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:

Under the presupposition that Islam is the true religion,

Well, yes, but the same can be said for every decision. Maybe the son of sam, or Charles Manson, were right! If we assume they were, then their actions are totally legit...

That was in a specific context as far as the eternal damnation of souls to the Hellfire.

So? The point here is the arrogance. "We can kill who we want, because we're right!"

Yes, the point you're making is that you're arrogant. "I don't like your religion because it's not all dandelions and hugging trees."
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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5/25/2013 10:32:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/25/2013 10:27:22 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:26:10 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:23:57 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:23:04 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 5/25/2013 9:47:49 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:

Under the presupposition that Islam is the true religion,

Well, yes, but the same can be said for every decision. Maybe the son of sam, or Charles Manson, were right! If we assume they were, then their actions are totally legit...

That was in a specific context as far as the eternal damnation of souls to the Hellfire.

So? The point here is the arrogance. "We can kill who we want, because we're right!"

Yes, the point you're making is that you're arrogant. "I don't like your religion because it's not all dandelions and hugging trees."

No, the point I'm making is that, if you assume your religion is right, then yes, killing apostates is justified. Just like if we assume the Son of Sam is correct, he was totally being told by his dog to kill people, and if we assume that Charles Manson was right, he was Jesus, and the Beatles were telling him of a coming race war.

There are lines that one should not cross without good reason, and "I'm sure I'm right about this intangible thing I can't prove" isn't one of them.

I know it upsets you that I called your religion arrogant, but considering it condones murder on the grounds of "doesn't believe this thing anymore", you'll just have to deal.
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Talib.ul-Ilm
Posts: 203
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5/25/2013 10:34:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/25/2013 10:32:28 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:27:22 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:26:10 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:23:57 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:23:04 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 5/25/2013 9:47:49 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:

Under the presupposition that Islam is the true religion,

Well, yes, but the same can be said for every decision. Maybe the son of sam, or Charles Manson, were right! If we assume they were, then their actions are totally legit...

That was in a specific context as far as the eternal damnation of souls to the Hellfire.

So? The point here is the arrogance. "We can kill who we want, because we're right!"

Yes, the point you're making is that you're arrogant. "I don't like your religion because it's not all dandelions and hugging trees."

No, the point I'm making is that, if you assume your religion is right, then yes, killing apostates is justified. Just like if we assume the Son of Sam is correct, he was totally being told by his dog to kill people, and if we assume that Charles Manson was right, he was Jesus, and the Beatles were telling him of a coming race war.

There are lines that one should not cross without good reason, and "I'm sure I'm right about this intangible thing I can't prove" isn't one of them.

I know it upsets you that I called your religion arrogant, but considering it condones murder on the grounds of "doesn't believe this thing anymore", you'll just have to deal.

Your point is irrelevant to the discussion. The context of which I spoke about the presupposition of Islam being the true religion of mankind specifically had to do with the eternal damnation of souls to the Hellfire.
Talib.ul-Ilm
Posts: 203
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5/25/2013 10:35:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Do you deny that saving souls from the eternal punishment of damnation to the Hellfire is vital to the reasons behind the killing or expelling of apostates?
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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5/25/2013 10:36:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/25/2013 10:34:35 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:

Your point is irrelevant to the discussion. The context of which I spoke about the presupposition of Islam being the true religion of mankind specifically had to do with the eternal damnation of souls to the Hellfire.

No, it is relevant. Because, again, you're condoning the killing of people solely on the presupposition you're correct. What if people were killing Muslims because their religion told them to? Would you say "Well, it's totally justified, because we start from the presupposition that they're correct..."
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YYW
Posts: 36,303
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5/25/2013 10:37:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/25/2013 10:19:43 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:11:22 PM, YYW wrote:
At 5/25/2013 9:47:49 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
I'm going to argue that the punishment of death or expulsion of apostates in Islam is justified.

Under the presupposition that Islam is the true religion, and is also a state, the saving of souls from the eternal Hellfire and keeping the Muslim community pure of impure elements is of great concern, and the act of apostasy is the equivalent of treason.

Apostates themselves are a living statement of disbelief in Allah and His Messenger and the implied falsehood of Islam. Many who leave the religion were poorly educated on what Islam is, and make false claims and accusations against the religion, whether on their own accord or through enticement. Islam is both a religion and a state, therefore to leave the religion is to be a traitor to the state. The saving of souls from eternal damnation is one of the main goals of Islam.

Therefore the killing or expelling of apostates eliminates a living statement of disbelief in Allah and His Messenger and the implied falsehood of Islam. It eliminates the possibility of false claims and accusations against the religion. Also, it rids the state of Islam of traitors. And the possibility of impure elements within the religion and state of Islam leading individual souls to eternal damnation in the Hellfire is non-existent.

The statement of...

"And the possibility of impure elements within the religion and state of Islam leading individual souls to eternal damnation in the Hellfire is non-existent."

...Is one of the most important.

And on a side note, it all but removes the possibility of dissension and disunity within the Muslim Ummah.

If people keep their faith only out of fear of execution, the religion to which they belong is meaningless. One can argue the utility silencing opposition within the framework of any organized hierarchal structure, but the value of doing so is nonexistent outside of that regime (and yes, I'm implying that religion becomes a regime when the penalty for leaving one's faith is death).

But within an Islamic framework, if the eternal consequences of apostasy are what you claim they are, then even if it were the case that people who abandon Islam present a threat to Islam, the fear of eternal consequence ought to be sufficient alone to keep others from also leaving Islam.

You've proven nothing of the justice of killing apostates, and there's no way you could. The argument you've put forward is at best nonsense, at worst disgraceful.

You're ignoring the presupposition and the many threats/benefits I named.

Ignoring? No. Disregarding? Yes, because the "threats" you've spoken of are fantasies particular to Islam; which is to say that they apply only if one believes according to the parameters of the Islamic faith.
Tsar of DDO
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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5/25/2013 10:38:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/25/2013 10:35:55 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
Do you deny that saving souls from the eternal punishment of damnation to the Hellfire is vital to the reasons behind the killing or expelling of apostates?

I do, because even if I took it at face value, it's based on a presupposition that the apostate will convince others, so you're killing innocents because they MIGHT cause other people to question. Maybe.
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Talib.ul-Ilm
Posts: 203
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5/25/2013 10:46:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/25/2013 10:38:13 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:35:55 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
Do you deny that saving souls from the eternal punishment of damnation to the Hellfire is vital to the reasons behind the killing or expelling of apostates?

I do, because even if I took it at face value, it's based on a presupposition that the apostate will convince others, so you're killing innocents because they MIGHT cause other people to question. Maybe.

Then you deny that apostates are a living, breathing statement of disbelief in Allah and His Messenger, and the implied falsehood of Islam? If I know you're an Atheist, I know you disbelieve in God. If I know you're a vegetarian, I know you don't eat meat. Therefore if I know that you once believe in Allah and His Messenger, in the truth of Islam, and left the religion, stopped being a Muslim, I know that you are under the belief and opinion that Allah and His Messenger are false.

Wikiislam.net, jihadwatch.org, thereligionofpeace.com, and many others are prime examples of the false claims and accusations against the religion of Islam, many of their contributors are in fact ex-Muslims, apostates.

Islam is both a religion and a state. To leave the state is to betray the state, therefore making you a traitor.

The saving of souls from eternal damnation in the Hellfire is a prime concern for Allah, which is why He sent so many Messengers and Prophets to mankind to bring them back to belief in God, to obeying God, so that they may have the opposite of eternal damnation in the Hellfire, and instead have eternal bliss in Paradise.
Talib.ul-Ilm
Posts: 203
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5/25/2013 10:47:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/25/2013 10:37:08 PM, YYW wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:19:43 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:11:22 PM, YYW wrote:
At 5/25/2013 9:47:49 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
I'm going to argue that the punishment of death or expulsion of apostates in Islam is justified.

Under the presupposition that Islam is the true religion, and is also a state, the saving of souls from the eternal Hellfire and keeping the Muslim community pure of impure elements is of great concern, and the act of apostasy is the equivalent of treason.

Apostates themselves are a living statement of disbelief in Allah and His Messenger and the implied falsehood of Islam. Many who leave the religion were poorly educated on what Islam is, and make false claims and accusations against the religion, whether on their own accord or through enticement. Islam is both a religion and a state, therefore to leave the religion is to be a traitor to the state. The saving of souls from eternal damnation is one of the main goals of Islam.

Therefore the killing or expelling of apostates eliminates a living statement of disbelief in Allah and His Messenger and the implied falsehood of Islam. It eliminates the possibility of false claims and accusations against the religion. Also, it rids the state of Islam of traitors. And the possibility of impure elements within the religion and state of Islam leading individual souls to eternal damnation in the Hellfire is non-existent.

The statement of...

"And the possibility of impure elements within the religion and state of Islam leading individual souls to eternal damnation in the Hellfire is non-existent."

...Is one of the most important.

And on a side note, it all but removes the possibility of dissension and disunity within the Muslim Ummah.

If people keep their faith only out of fear of execution, the religion to which they belong is meaningless. One can argue the utility silencing opposition within the framework of any organized hierarchal structure, but the value of doing so is nonexistent outside of that regime (and yes, I'm implying that religion becomes a regime when the penalty for leaving one's faith is death).

But within an Islamic framework, if the eternal consequences of apostasy are what you claim they are, then even if it were the case that people who abandon Islam present a threat to Islam, the fear of eternal consequence ought to be sufficient alone to keep others from also leaving Islam.

You've proven nothing of the justice of killing apostates, and there's no way you could. The argument you've put forward is at best nonsense, at worst disgraceful.

You're ignoring the presupposition and the many threats/benefits I named.

Ignoring? No. Disregarding? Yes, because the "threats" you've spoken of are fantasies particular to Islam; which is to say that they apply only if one believes according to the parameters of the Islamic faith.

Ding, ding, ding. And the presupposition was? Take your trash elsewhere.
YYW
Posts: 36,303
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5/25/2013 10:48:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/25/2013 10:47:23 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:37:08 PM, YYW wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:19:43 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:11:22 PM, YYW wrote:
At 5/25/2013 9:47:49 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
I'm going to argue that the punishment of death or expulsion of apostates in Islam is justified.

Under the presupposition that Islam is the true religion, and is also a state, the saving of souls from the eternal Hellfire and keeping the Muslim community pure of impure elements is of great concern, and the act of apostasy is the equivalent of treason.

Apostates themselves are a living statement of disbelief in Allah and His Messenger and the implied falsehood of Islam. Many who leave the religion were poorly educated on what Islam is, and make false claims and accusations against the religion, whether on their own accord or through enticement. Islam is both a religion and a state, therefore to leave the religion is to be a traitor to the state. The saving of souls from eternal damnation is one of the main goals of Islam.

Therefore the killing or expelling of apostates eliminates a living statement of disbelief in Allah and His Messenger and the implied falsehood of Islam. It eliminates the possibility of false claims and accusations against the religion. Also, it rids the state of Islam of traitors. And the possibility of impure elements within the religion and state of Islam leading individual souls to eternal damnation in the Hellfire is non-existent.

The statement of...

"And the possibility of impure elements within the religion and state of Islam leading individual souls to eternal damnation in the Hellfire is non-existent."

...Is one of the most important.

And on a side note, it all but removes the possibility of dissension and disunity within the Muslim Ummah.

If people keep their faith only out of fear of execution, the religion to which they belong is meaningless. One can argue the utility silencing opposition within the framework of any organized hierarchal structure, but the value of doing so is nonexistent outside of that regime (and yes, I'm implying that religion becomes a regime when the penalty for leaving one's faith is death).

But within an Islamic framework, if the eternal consequences of apostasy are what you claim they are, then even if it were the case that people who abandon Islam present a threat to Islam, the fear of eternal consequence ought to be sufficient alone to keep others from also leaving Islam.

You've proven nothing of the justice of killing apostates, and there's no way you could. The argument you've put forward is at best nonsense, at worst disgraceful.

You're ignoring the presupposition and the many threats/benefits I named.

Ignoring? No. Disregarding? Yes, because the "threats" you've spoken of are fantasies particular to Islam; which is to say that they apply only if one believes according to the parameters of the Islamic faith.

Ding, ding, ding. And the presupposition was? Take your trash elsewhere.

*takes trash elsewhere*

Do you have anything else?
Tsar of DDO
Talib.ul-Ilm
Posts: 203
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5/25/2013 10:52:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/25/2013 10:48:40 PM, YYW wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:47:23 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:37:08 PM, YYW wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:19:43 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:11:22 PM, YYW wrote:
At 5/25/2013 9:47:49 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
I'm going to argue that the punishment of death or expulsion of apostates in Islam is justified.

Under the presupposition that Islam is the true religion, and is also a state, the saving of souls from the eternal Hellfire and keeping the Muslim community pure of impure elements is of great concern, and the act of apostasy is the equivalent of treason.

Apostates themselves are a living statement of disbelief in Allah and His Messenger and the implied falsehood of Islam. Many who leave the religion were poorly educated on what Islam is, and make false claims and accusations against the religion, whether on their own accord or through enticement. Islam is both a religion and a state, therefore to leave the religion is to be a traitor to the state. The saving of souls from eternal damnation is one of the main goals of Islam.

Therefore the killing or expelling of apostates eliminates a living statement of disbelief in Allah and His Messenger and the implied falsehood of Islam. It eliminates the possibility of false claims and accusations against the religion. Also, it rids the state of Islam of traitors. And the possibility of impure elements within the religion and state of Islam leading individual souls to eternal damnation in the Hellfire is non-existent.

The statement of...

"And the possibility of impure elements within the religion and state of Islam leading individual souls to eternal damnation in the Hellfire is non-existent."

...Is one of the most important.

And on a side note, it all but removes the possibility of dissension and disunity within the Muslim Ummah.

If people keep their faith only out of fear of execution, the religion to which they belong is meaningless. One can argue the utility silencing opposition within the framework of any organized hierarchal structure, but the value of doing so is nonexistent outside of that regime (and yes, I'm implying that religion becomes a regime when the penalty for leaving one's faith is death).

But within an Islamic framework, if the eternal consequences of apostasy are what you claim they are, then even if it were the case that people who abandon Islam present a threat to Islam, the fear of eternal consequence ought to be sufficient alone to keep others from also leaving Islam.

You've proven nothing of the justice of killing apostates, and there's no way you could. The argument you've put forward is at best nonsense, at worst disgraceful.

You're ignoring the presupposition and the many threats/benefits I named.

Ignoring? No. Disregarding? Yes, because the "threats" you've spoken of are fantasies particular to Islam; which is to say that they apply only if one believes according to the parameters of the Islamic faith.

Ding, ding, ding. And the presupposition was? Take your trash elsewhere.

*takes trash elsewhere*

Do you have anything else?

Uhm, okay.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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5/25/2013 11:00:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/25/2013 10:46:18 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:38:13 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:

Then you deny that apostates are a living, breathing statement of disbelief in Allah and His Messenger, and the implied falsehood of Islam? If I know you're an Atheist, I know you disbelieve in God.

You've also shown elsewhere that you don't know what it means to lack a belief. But do go on.

If I know you're a vegetarian, I know you don't eat meat. Therefore if I know that you once believe in Allah and His Messenger, in the truth of Islam, and left the religion, stopped being a Muslim, I know that you are under the belief and opinion that Allah and His Messenger are false.

Okay. And that's worth being killed for, according to you? And you think that's fundamentally different than any other monster who says that those who don't believe what they want them to believe are to be put to death?

Wikiislam.net, jihadwatch.org, thereligionofpeace.com, and many others are prime examples of the false claims and accusations against the religion of Islam, many of their contributors are in fact ex-Muslims, apostates.

Okay? So?

Islam is both a religion and a state. To leave the state is to betray the state, therefore making you a traitor.

Oh? So if I travel to Canada, I'm a traitor? (Hint: No, I'm not). Am I traitor if I officially renounce my citizenship of the US? (Hint: No, I'm not).

The saving of souls from eternal damnation in the Hellfire is a prime concern for Allah, which is why He sent so many Messengers and Prophets to mankind to bring them back to belief in God, to obeying God, so that they may have the opposite of eternal damnation in the Hellfire, and instead have eternal bliss in Paradise.

And, again, we return to the fact that you have to presuppose you're right in order to make this work. And if we did that for every crazy who thought "God" wanted him to kill someone "for the greater good", it would be obviously absurd.
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Dan4reason
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5/25/2013 11:07:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I am pretty sure that you don't actually believe what you are arguing for so my response is one I would make to someone with that viewpoint, e.g. a terrorist.

At 5/25/2013 9:47:49 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
I'm going to argue that the punishment of death or expulsion of apostates in Islam is justified.

To me, the most important things in this world are compassion and empathy.

Under the presupposition that Islam is the true religion, and is also a state, the saving of souls from the eternal Hellfire and keeping the Muslim community pure of impure elements is of great concern, and the act of apostasy is the equivalent of treason.

Treason is when you wage war against your own country, or aid its enemies. I honestly think it is less of a crime than it is made out to be. People who are convinced should be treated as any other enemy combatants. People who leave Islam are not hurting Muslims or necessarily trying to destroy it. People who do leave Islam should be treated like someone who was not a Muslim to begin with.

Apostates themselves are a living statement of disbelief in Allah and His Messenger and the implied falsehood of Islam. Many who leave the religion were poorly educated on what Islam is, and make false claims and accusations against the religion, whether on their own accord or through enticement. Islam is both a religion and a state, therefore to leave the religion is to be a traitor to the state. The saving of souls from eternal damnation is one of the main goals of Islam.

Most people who leave know Islam very well because they were Muslims. Some might make false accusations, but many Muslims make false accusations about Christians and Jews. You cannot show that all who leave Islam make false accusations, only that a vocal minority do. Also making false accusations is not a punishable crime.

Therefore the killing or expelling of apostates eliminates a living statement of disbelief in Allah and His Messenger and the implied falsehood of Islam. It eliminates the possibility of false claims and accusations against the religion. Also, it rids the state of Islam of traitors. And the possibility of impure elements within the religion and state of Islam leading individual souls to eternal damnation in the Hellfire is non-existent.

It also destroys people's basic freedom of belief, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, and freedom of speech. Without this freedom we are no better than the "Godless" communists. The reason many Muslims move away from their violent culture to our western nations is because of the prosperity freedom and tolerance has brought about. Some of them don't believe in this freedom and deserve to be deported back to some middle eastern religious war zone.

The basic idea behind freedom is that you don't have to right to tell another adult how to think, and how to talk, and how to conduct his personal life any more than he does to tell you what to think. To break this rule is evil and is the definition of what government is here is protect us from.

Without free will, there is no point in testing us on earth. If people who leave Islam are killed, they will most likely just pretend to be Muslims infecting Islam from the inside. Do you really want that?

When you squash distension you are squashing rational thought in favor of irrational belief and totalitarianism. People with the viewpoint you advocated are the reason who religion is so harmful and should die.
Talib.ul-Ilm
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5/25/2013 11:17:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/25/2013 11:00:23 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:46:18 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:38:13 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:

Then you deny that apostates are a living, breathing statement of disbelief in Allah and His Messenger, and the implied falsehood of Islam? If I know you're an Atheist, I know you disbelieve in God.

You've also shown elsewhere that you don't know what it means to lack a belief. But do go on.


To disbelieve in Allah and His messenger as truth is to believe that Allah and His Messenger were false.

If I know you're a vegetarian, I know you don't eat meat. Therefore if I know that you once believe in Allah and His Messenger, in the truth of Islam, and left the religion, stopped being a Muslim, I know that you are under the belief and opinion that Allah and His Messenger are false.

Okay. And that's worth being killed for, according to you? And you think that's fundamentally different than any other monster who says that those who don't believe what they want them to believe are to be put to death?


You're ignoring the presupposition, and the effects I described that apostates can have on the Muslim Ummah.

Wikiislam.net, jihadwatch.org, thereligionofpeace.com, and many others are prime examples of the false claims and accusations against the religion of Islam, many of their contributors are in fact ex-Muslims, apostates.

Okay? So?

So about ninety percent of what they have to say is either outright lies or an orientalists or Islamaphobes understanding. It is an insult to Islam and a way to mislead Muslims and friends of Muslims.


Islam is both a religion and a state. To leave the state is to betray the state, therefore making you a traitor.

Oh? So if I travel to Canada, I'm a traitor? (Hint: No, I'm not). Am I traitor if I officially renounce my citizenship of the US? (Hint: No, I'm not).


No. If you abandon your citizenship as an American, you're betraying your country. You're being disloyal to your nation by not acting in the interests of your country. An apostate by just living and breathing in Muslim land would be acting in the interests of the enemies of Islam. This is betrayal.


The saving of souls from eternal damnation in the Hellfire is a prime concern for Allah, which is why He sent so many Messengers and Prophets to mankind to bring them back to belief in God, to obeying God, so that they may have the opposite of eternal damnation in the Hellfire, and instead have eternal bliss in Paradise.

And, again, we return to the fact that you have to presuppose you're right in order to make this work. And if we did that for every crazy who thought "God" wanted him to kill someone "for the greater good", it would be obviously absurd.

No. I am not presupposing I am right, I am presupposing that specific aspects of the religion have a lot to do with the discussion at hand.

If you have nothing of value to add to the conversation, then why partake?
Talib.ul-Ilm
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5/25/2013 11:26:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/25/2013 11:07:58 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
I am pretty sure that you don't actually believe what you are arguing for so my response is one I would make to someone with that viewpoint, e.g. a terrorist.


Oh, but I most certainly do. And terrorism is defined as the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims. This is both political and religious, but definitely more so the latter. So...

At 5/25/2013 9:47:49 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
I'm going to argue that the punishment of death or expulsion of apostates in Islam is justified.

To me, the most important things in this world are compassion and empathy.


We can agree in general there.

Under the presupposition that Islam is the true religion, and is also a state, the saving of souls from the eternal Hellfire and keeping the Muslim community pure of impure elements is of great concern, and the act of apostasy is the equivalent of treason.

Treason is when you wage war against your own country, or aid its enemies. I honestly think it is less of a crime than it is made out to be. People who are convinced should be treated as any other enemy combatants. People who leave Islam are not hurting Muslims or necessarily trying to destroy it. People who do leave Islam should be treated like someone who was not a Muslim to begin with.


Treason is defined as the crime of betraying one's country, esp. by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government or the action of betraying someone or something. You are betraying the Muslims state by rejecting the very foundations of it, and preaching against it. I could elaborate more, but why bother?

Apostates themselves are a living statement of disbelief in Allah and His Messenger and the implied falsehood of Islam. Many who leave the religion were poorly educated on what Islam is, and make false claims and accusations against the religion, whether on their own accord or through enticement. Islam is both a religion and a state, therefore to leave the religion is to be a traitor to the state. The saving of souls from eternal damnation is one of the main goals of Islam.

Most people who leave know Islam very well because they were Muslims. Some might make false accusations, but many Muslims make false accusations about Christians and Jews. You cannot show that all who leave Islam make false accusations, only that a vocal minority do. Also making false accusations is not a punishable crime.


That's actually a cliche. In general, most are actually those who never really practiced much in the first place, who know less than the average new convert to Islam. And making false accusations is most certainly a crime, within Islam, and morally.

Therefore the killing or expelling of apostates eliminates a living statement of disbelief in Allah and His Messenger and the implied falsehood of Islam. It eliminates the possibility of false claims and accusations against the religion. Also, it rids the state of Islam of traitors. And the possibility of impure elements within the religion and state of Islam leading individual souls to eternal damnation in the Hellfire is non-existent.

It also destroys people's basic freedom of belief, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, and freedom of speech. Without this freedom we are no better than the "Godless" communists. The reason many Muslims move away from their violent culture to our western nations is because of the prosperity freedom and tolerance has brought about. Some of them don't believe in this freedom and deserve to be deported back to some middle eastern religious war zone.


You're ignoring the presupposition. You're destroying ones freedom of Paradise by leading them to Hellfire.

The basic idea behind freedom is that you don't have to right to tell another adult how to think, and how to talk, and how to conduct his personal life any more than he does to tell you what to think. To break this rule is evil and is the definition of what government is here is protect us from.


If you're not going to discuss this topic according to the presupposition, then leave the discussion.

Without free will, there is no point in testing us on earth. If people who leave Islam are killed, they will most likely just pretend to be Muslims infecting Islam from the inside. Do you really want that?


Yes and no. Due to the very conservative and unchangeable nature of Islam, they can't really do much about infecting Islam from the inside at all. Islam is Islam, for the most part, nothing of it is allowed to be changed.

When you squash distension you are squashing rational thought in favor of irrational belief and totalitarianism. People with the viewpoint you advocated are the reason who religion is so harmful and should die.

You're presupposing that belief in God is irrational. And ignoring the presupposition of the initial starting point of the discussion.

If you're not going to discuss the matter according to the presupposition in place, why bother partaking in the discussion at all? Because I feel like you just wasted ten minutes of my time.
bladerunner060
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5/25/2013 11:29:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/25/2013 11:17:25 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/25/2013 11:00:23 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:46:18 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:38:13 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:

Then you deny that apostates are a living, breathing statement of disbelief in Allah and His Messenger, and the implied falsehood of Islam? If I know you're an Atheist, I know you disbelieve in God.

You've also shown elsewhere that you don't know what it means to lack a belief. But do go on.


To disbelieve in Allah and His messenger as truth is to believe that Allah and His Messenger were false.

If I know you're a vegetarian, I know you don't eat meat. Therefore if I know that you once believe in Allah and His Messenger, in the truth of Islam, and left the religion, stopped being a Muslim, I know that you are under the belief and opinion that Allah and His Messenger are false.

Okay. And that's worth being killed for, according to you? And you think that's fundamentally different than any other monster who says that those who don't believe what they want them to believe are to be put to death?


You're ignoring the presupposition, and the effects I described that apostates can have on the Muslim Ummah.

I'm not "ignoring" it, I'm pointing out that it's an untenable presupposition. I'm rejecting it. There's a difference.


Wikiislam.net, jihadwatch.org, thereligionofpeace.com, and many others are prime examples of the false claims and accusations against the religion of Islam, many of their contributors are in fact ex-Muslims, apostates.

Okay? So?

So about ninety percent of what they have to say is either outright lies or an orientalists or Islamaphobes understanding. It is an insult to Islam and a way to mislead Muslims and friends of Muslims.

Okay. But it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the concept of apostasy in principle. I may as well say that killing all muslims is okay, because some flew planes into buildings. You aren't defending only the killing of people who say Muslims eat Christian babies...you're defending the killing of anyone who doesn't believe.



Islam is both a religion and a state. To leave the state is to betray the state, therefore making you a traitor.

Oh? So if I travel to Canada, I'm a traitor? (Hint: No, I'm not). Am I traitor if I officially renounce my citizenship of the US? (Hint: No, I'm not).


No. If you abandon your citizenship as an American, you're betraying your country. You're being disloyal to your nation by not acting in the interests of your country. An apostate by just living and breathing in Muslim land would be acting in the interests of the enemies of Islam. This is betrayal.

I like how you just make assertions, with no actual argument to back it up. A traitor is someone who SHOULD be loyal to their country, who acts against it to a foreign power. If a person has renounced their citizenship, they are no longer a citizen. They aren't "treasonous"; if that was the same, you wouldn't be allowed to renounce your citizenship, they'd put you to death for trying, and yet they don't.


The saving of souls from eternal damnation in the Hellfire is a prime concern for Allah, which is why He sent so many Messengers and Prophets to mankind to bring them back to belief in God, to obeying God, so that they may have the opposite of eternal damnation in the Hellfire, and instead have eternal bliss in Paradise.

And, again, we return to the fact that you have to presuppose you're right in order to make this work. And if we did that for every crazy who thought "God" wanted him to kill someone "for the greater good", it would be obviously absurd.

No. I am not presupposing I am right, I am presupposinig that specific aspects of the religion have a lot to do with the discussion at hand.

And I'm saying that, allowing murder on the presupposition that the religion is right is a wildly faulty argument.


If you have nothing of value to add to the conversation, then why partake?

Well, you posted on a public forum a defense of murder on the presupposition that the religion which recommended it was right, and I pointed out that that presupposition is a dumb one to make, because it would apply equally well to any nutjob who used "God said it" to be a reason to kill. I consider that a valuable contribution. You don't, apparently, possibly because you don't like having it pointed out to you.
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Talib.ul-Ilm
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5/25/2013 11:37:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/25/2013 11:29:19 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 5/25/2013 11:17:25 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/25/2013 11:00:23 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:46:18 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/25/2013 10:38:13 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:

Then you deny that apostates are a living, breathing statement of disbelief in Allah and His Messenger, and the implied falsehood of Islam? If I know you're an Atheist, I know you disbelieve in God.

You've also shown elsewhere that you don't know what it means to lack a belief. But do go on.


To disbelieve in Allah and His messenger as truth is to believe that Allah and His Messenger were false.

If I know you're a vegetarian, I know you don't eat meat. Therefore if I know that you once believe in Allah and His Messenger, in the truth of Islam, and left the religion, stopped being a Muslim, I know that you are under the belief and opinion that Allah and His Messenger are false.

Okay. And that's worth being killed for, according to you? And you think that's fundamentally different than any other monster who says that those who don't believe what they want them to believe are to be put to death?


You're ignoring the presupposition, and the effects I described that apostates can have on the Muslim Ummah.

I'm not "ignoring" it, I'm pointing out that it's an untenable presupposition. I'm rejecting it. There's a difference.


Wikiislam.net, jihadwatch.org, thereligionofpeace.com, and many others are prime examples of the false claims and accusations against the religion of Islam, many of their contributors are in fact ex-Muslims, apostates.

Okay? So?

So about ninety percent of what they have to say is either outright lies or an orientalists or Islamaphobes understanding. It is an insult to Islam and a way to mislead Muslims and friends of Muslims.

Okay. But it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the concept of apostasy in principle. I may as well say that killing all muslims is okay, because some flew planes into buildings. You aren't defending only the killing of people who say Muslims eat Christian babies...you're defending the killing of anyone who doesn't believe.



Islam is both a religion and a state. To leave the state is to betray the state, therefore making you a traitor.

Oh? So if I travel to Canada, I'm a traitor? (Hint: No, I'm not). Am I traitor if I officially renounce my citizenship of the US? (Hint: No, I'm not).


No. If you abandon your citizenship as an American, you're betraying your country. You're being disloyal to your nation by not acting in the interests of your country. An apostate by just living and breathing in Muslim land would be acting in the interests of the enemies of Islam. This is betrayal.

I like how you just make assertions, with no actual argument to back it up. A traitor is someone who SHOULD be loyal to their country, who acts against it to a foreign power. If a person has renounced their citizenship, they are no longer a citizen. They aren't "treasonous"; if that was the same, you wouldn't be allowed to renounce your citizenship, they'd put you to death for trying, and yet they don't.



The saving of souls from eternal damnation in the Hellfire is a prime concern for Allah, which is why He sent so many Messengers and Prophets to mankind to bring them back to belief in God, to obeying God, so that they may have the opposite of eternal damnation in the Hellfire, and instead have eternal bliss in Paradise.

And, again, we return to the fact that you have to presuppose you're right in order to make this work. And if we did that for every crazy who thought "God" wanted him to kill someone "for the greater good", it would be obviously absurd.

No. I am not presupposing I am right, I am presupposinig that specific aspects of the religion have a lot to do with the discussion at hand.

And I'm saying that, allowing murder on the presupposition that the religion is right is a wildly faulty argument.


If you have nothing of value to add to the conversation, then why partake?

Well, you posted on a public forum a defense of murder on the presupposition that the religion which recommended it was right, and I pointed out that that presupposition is a dumb one to make, because it would apply equally well to any nutjob who used "God said it" to be a reason to kill. I consider that a valuable contribution. You don't, apparently, possibly because you don't like having it pointed out to you.

Read the beginning of the thread. I said under the presupposition that Islam is right, in a specific context, that has a major impact upon the reasons as to why one would kill an apostate.

If you're going to deny this, then you have very little intellect.
bladerunner060
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5/25/2013 11:48:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/25/2013 11:37:35 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:


Read the beginning of the thread. I said under the presupposition that Islam is right, in a specific context, that has a major impact upon the reasons as to why one would kill an apostate.

If you're going to deny this, then you have very little intellect.

And I said that making that presupposition was invalid. If you're going to ignore what I said, then the one who has very little intellect is not I.

My point is that we can't accept such a presupposition as justification for murder.
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Talib.ul-Ilm
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5/25/2013 11:55:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/25/2013 11:48:19 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 5/25/2013 11:37:35 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:


Read the beginning of the thread. I said under the presupposition that Islam is right, in a specific context, that has a major impact upon the reasons as to why one would kill an apostate.

If you're going to deny this, then you have very little intellect.

And I said that making that presupposition was invalid. If you're going to ignore what I said, then the one who has very little intellect is not I.

My point is that we can't accept such a presupposition as justification for murder.

How do you rationally reject such a presupposition? The eternal damnation of disbelievers and sinners to Hellfire has a lot to do with the killing of apostates. The presupposition that Islam is both a state and a religion has a lot to do with the killing of apostates.

You can't deny the first. If you are going to, give me a reason for it that is valid. And the disbelief in God, and the belief in the falsehood of Islam, these are not valid reasons to reject the presupposition.

If you're not going to have anything of value to add to the discussion, then leave it be.
flaskblob
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5/25/2013 11:59:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/25/2013 9:58:28 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/25/2013 9:54:05 PM, Mirza wrote:
Hello Ma'am, save some of it for our debate!

Hehe. I'm male.

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Of course I'm using those fallacies; they're the only logical ones." - f3ffy
Talib.ul-Ilm
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5/26/2013 12:00:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/25/2013 11:59:30 PM, flaskblob wrote:
At 5/25/2013 9:58:28 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/25/2013 9:54:05 PM, Mirza wrote:
Hello Ma'am, save some of it for our debate!

Hehe. I'm male.

Women are not allowed to use the internet in Islam

You're an idiot.