Total Posts:111|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Has Judaism been abandoned by God?

MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 6:07:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Scripture tells us that the nation of Israel was warned many times what the result of their unfaithfulness would be.

They were even taken into captivity and their temple destroyed in punishment for that, and then eventually released in the hope that they would learn.

Eventually God sent His son to them to try and save all he could and bring them into the promised New Covenant, and therefore end the old one, the Mosaic Law Covenant. Jesus himself outlined the process at Matthew 21:33-46 which shows that even the Scribes and Pharisees recognised the fulfilment of prophecy that was imminent, and hated Jesus all the more for it.

True to that prophecy, and the one on Daniel 9, the Messiah came, preached, was rejected like the Prophets before him and eventually put to death and the Mosaic Covenant ended.

True to that prophecy (Daniel 9) the old covenant was "kept open for the many" for a while, but was finally closed both with the destruction, once again, of the temple, and the pouring out of God's spirit on the faithful few who had followed His son's teachings.

From that point on there was no way back for Judaism as a whole, though any individual who chose to join in with those who followed the path Christ laid out were to be accepted.

Of course the Christian Congregation, after the death of teh Apostles, went the same way as Judaism had, and like Judaism was allowed to do so until this present time, the time of the end, when again Christ sought, this time from Heaven, a faithful remnant to form into a new group to once again bring the faithful back into the fold, into true worship.

It is simply up to us to respond.
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 6:35:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
"If there is a god, he will have to beg my forgiveness" - A phrase carved into a concentration camp cell, by a Jewish prisoner.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 7:04:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/30/2013 6:07:11 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Of course the Christian Congregation, after the death of teh Apostles, went the same way as Judaism had, and like Judaism was allowed to do so until this present time, the time of the end, when again Christ sought, this time from Heaven, a faithful remnant to form into a new group to once again bring the faithful back into the fold, into true worship.

The Jehovah's Witnesses, right? :-)

I dunno. I'm in a debate right now with a Catholic, and he thinks the Catholic church is God's only spirit led organization.[1] But you think Jehovah's Witnesses are God's only spirit led organization. On the one hand, the Catholic Catachism says, "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been intrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone."[2] On the other hand, the Watchtower magazine says, "All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the 'greatly diversified wisdom of God' can become known only through Jehovah's channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave."[3] If I can't read and understand the Bible on my own, then how can I decide which of these organizations is right?

1. http://www.debate.org...

2. http://www.vatican.va...

3. Watchtower magazine, dated October 1, 1994, page 8.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 7:10:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Or maybe it's the Mormons. They are like the Jehovah's Witnesses in the fact that they think there was a major falling away and that God had to restore the church in these latter days. What all of these organizations have in common is that they all have some authority at the top who determines everything. They alone have the authority to accurately interpret scripture, and conveniently enough, the Scripture endorses them.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 9:22:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
"Of course the Christian Congregation, after the death of teh Apostles, went the same way as Judaism had, and like Judaism was allowed to do so until this present time, the time of the end, when again Christ sought, this time from Heaven, a faithful remnant to form into a new group to once again bring the faithful back into the fold, into true worship."

Explain this one, especially "the time of the end" and "Christ sought". Who exactly is this "faithful remnant" who form a "new group." Who and where is this group?

Much of what you say in this post would be correct. That the church of Jesus Christ fell away is a documented fact to anybody but a Catholic - and they have to try to claim that the Spirit led papa and his redbirds off into Bible-contradicting teachings. So it all becomes a matter of restoration, but Jesus Christ has always been seeking through His word - not a new group - but a return to the old.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 10:17:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/30/2013 7:04:54 AM, philochristos wrote:
If I can't read and understand the Bible on my own, then how can I decide which of these organizations is right?

Reasonable exegesis?
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 10:23:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/30/2013 9:22:12 AM, annanicole wrote:
"Of course the Christian Congregation, after the death of teh Apostles, went the same way as Judaism had, and like Judaism was allowed to do so until this present time, the time of the end, when again Christ sought, this time from Heaven, a faithful remnant to form into a new group to once again bring the faithful back into the fold, into true worship."

Explain this one, especially "the time of the end" and "Christ sought". Who exactly is this "faithful remnant" who form a "new group." Who and where is this group?

Much of what you say in this post would be correct. That the church of Jesus Christ fell away is a documented fact to anybody but a Catholic - and they have to try to claim that the Spirit led papa and his redbirds off into Bible-contradicting teachings. So it all becomes a matter of restoration, but Jesus Christ has always been seeking through His word - not a new group - but a return to the old.

What makes you think you have the right Church, annanicole?
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 10:26:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/30/2013 7:10:11 AM, philochristos wrote:
Or maybe it's the Mormons. They are like the Jehovah's Witnesses in the fact that they think there was a major falling away and that God had to restore the church in these latter days. What all of these organizations have in common is that they all have some authority at the top who determines everything. They alone have the authority to accurately interpret scripture, and conveniently enough, the Scripture endorses them.

The Mormons are far less cultish.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 10:34:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
"What makes you think you have the right Church, annanicole?"

Technically, I don't. Jesus Christ has the right church. One can't join it to save his life - or his soul. I'm not in the "joining" business, but if I were, I think I'd "join" lots of sects. One is added to the church ... translated into the kingdom ... passive ... as an effect of complying with God's law of pardon. When one does that, Jesus Christ will add one to the church since the church is the saved, and the saved are the church.

I can eliminate 98% of the so-called "Christian" religious bodies today simply on the basis that they do not teach or practice God's plan of conversion. On that subject, the Catholics had (and have) it closer than the Protestants. I'll "x" off any group that runs around saying that baptism is unnecessary to salvation, so that eliminates the Methodists, Baptists, Episcopals, Presbyterians, etc.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 11:22:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
My psychic friend accessed the untempered schism and said that it told him that Judaism hadn't been abandoned by God, but Christianity has been.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
PGA
Posts: 4,045
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 1:24:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hello MadCornishBiker,

I think I know where you are coming from, and I tend to agree with what you have said to date. Are you a Preterist or partial-Preterist?

To me, the most significant event in prophecy is A.D. 70. I think the OT looks towards it and the NT sees it just around the corner. Jesus keeps warning that particular generation of the time of the end, the last days, as do the Apostles and writers of the NT.

The entire NT revolves first and foremost around the Messiah's coming and God's promises to Israel, judgment upon these people for breaking His covenant and continuously worshiping foreign gods and this new righteousness in the New Covenant that brings in the kingdom age.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are key passages, that, along with the book of Hebrews and Revelation form a hub the extends and radiates into most books of the Bible in regards to prophecy. Deuteronomy and Daniel is also very significant for our understanding and building a strong argument. I think these are a tremendous attestation that the Bible is what it claims to be - the very word of God.

Peter
PGA
Posts: 4,045
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 1:35:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/30/2013 1:24:09 PM, PGA wrote:
Hello MadCornishBiker,

I think I know where you are coming from, and I tend to agree with what you have said to date. Are you a Preterist or partial-Preterist?

To me, the most significant event in prophecy is A.D. 70. I think the OT looks towards it and the NT sees it just around the corner. Jesus keeps warning that particular generation of the time of the end, the last days, as do the Apostles and writers of the NT.

The entire NT revolves first and foremost around the Messiah's coming and God's promises to Israel, judgment upon these people for breaking His covenant and continuously worshiping foreign gods and this new righteousness in the New Covenant that brings in the kingdom age.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are key passages, that, along with the book of Hebrews and Revelation form a hub that extends and radiates into most books of the Bible in regards to prophecy. Deuteronomy and Daniel is also very significant for our understanding and building a strong argument. I think these are a tremendous attestation that the Bible is what it claims to be - the very word of God.

Peter

So, yes, in answer to your question, God has replaced the Old Covenant with the New Covenant. As Matthew 5:17-18 says, not one jot or title of the law or the prophets would be abandoned until all was fulfilled. Hebrews 8:13 says what is old and obsolete will soon disappear. Soon to the time of writing would be during the first century, that particular generation, in which Hebrews 2-3 lists as being similar to the generation that perished in the desert (i.e., 40 years and disbelieving). From Jesus' death to A.D. 70 is within that time span.

Peter
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 3:17:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/30/2013 10:17:46 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 5/30/2013 7:04:54 AM, philochristos wrote:
If I can't read and understand the Bible on my own, then how can I decide which of these organizations is right?

Reasonable exegesis?

So I can read and understand the Bible on my own?
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 3:22:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
PGA: "To me, the most significant event in prophecy is A.D. 70."

Anna: It is very significant. How's that? VERY significant.

PGA: "I think the OT looks towards it and the NT sees it just around the corner.:

Anna: True to Part 2 of the sentence, absolutely. I'm curious as to why you think the OT looks to AD 70. I've hardly thought about it, but I do not remember single OT prophesy would link to AD 70.

PGA: "Jesus keeps warning that particular generation of the time of the end, the last days, as do the Apostles and writers of the NT."

Anna: Bingo!

PGA: "The entire NT revolves first and foremost around the Messiah's coming and God's promises to Israel, judgment upon these people for breaking His covenant and continuously worshiping foreign gods and this new righteousness in the New Covenant that brings in the kingdom age."

Anna: I would add for clarity the amazing amount of preaching that John and Jesus did concerning the kingdom which came on Pentecost - the church.

PGA: "I think these are a tremendous attestation that the Bible is what it claims to be - the very word of God."

Anna: Very much so. Always in my top 5 reasons for believing the Bible to be true. Those "future-fulfillment" speculators are throwing away an ace of spades.

PGA: "Soon to the time of writing would be during the first century, that particular generation, in which Hebrews 2-3 lists as being similar to the generation that perished in the desert (i.e., 40 years and disbelieving). From Jesus' death to A.D. 70 is within that time span."

Anna: More detail on that? Are you speaking of, for instance, the latter half of Heb 3?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
1Devilsadvocate
Posts: 1,518
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 3:40:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
(It's D"j" vu all over again)

Unless you say that God doesn't mean what he says or twist what is written to fit preconceived notions, it is clear that God said he will never abandon the Jews.

Genisis 7:
3 And I will make my covenant between me and thee...4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee... 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, ... 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee ... all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession... 10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Exodus 31:16:
'So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.'

Leviticus 26:44-45 :
14 ""But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, 15 and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant, 16 then I will do this to you: I will bring on you sudden terror... 18 ""If after all this you still will not listen to me, I will punish you... 21 ""If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions... 23 ""If in spite of these things you do not accept my correction but continue to be hostile toward me, 24 I myself will be hostile toward you and will afflict you...
44 Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the Lord their God. 45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of Egypt in the sight of the nations to be their God. I am the Lord.""

Deuteronomy 4 :
25"When you become the father of children and children"s children and have remained long in the land, and act corruptly, and make an idol in the form of anything, and do that which is evil in the sight of the LORD your God so as to provoke Him to anger... you will quickly perish from the land... The LORD will scatter you among the peoples, and only a few of you will survive among the nations to which the LORD will drive you... 31"For the LORD your God is a compassionate God; He will not fail you nor destroy you nor forget the covenant with your fathers which He swore to them.

Isaiah 45:17
"But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation" -

Issaiah 59:21:
"As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring"s offspring," says the LORD, "from now and forever."

Issaih 61:
...4 Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins, They will raise up the former devastations; And they will repair the ruined cities,The desolations of many generations.

Jeremiah 31:
"Is not Ephraim my dear son, the child in whom I delight? Though I often speak against him, I shall remember him. Therefore My heart yearns for him, I have great compassion for him,"

35 This is what the Lord says,
he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar"
the Lord Almighty is his name:
36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,"
declares the Lord,
"will Israel ever cease
being a nation before me."
See also verse 37

Jeremiah 32:37 :
37 I will surely gather them from all the lands where I banish them in my furious anger and great wrath; I will bring them back to this place and let them live in safety.

Jeremiah 33 :
Consider not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which Jehovah did choose, he hath cast them off? thus do they despise my people, that they should be no more a nation before them. 25 Thus saith Jehovah: If my covenant of day and night [stand] not, if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; then will I also cast away the seed of Jacob, and of David my servant, so that I will not take of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and will have mercy on them.

Ezekiel 16:
59 ""This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will deal with you as you deserve, because you have despised my oath by breaking the covenant. 60 Yet I will remember the covenant I made with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. 62 So I will establish my covenant with you, and you will know that I am the Lord. 63 Then, when I make atonement for you for all you have done, you will remember and be ashamed and never again open your mouth because of your humiliation, declares the Sovereign Lord.""

Ezekial 36:
16 Again the word of the Lord came to me: 17 "Son of man, when the people of Israel were living in their own land, they defiled it by their conduct and their actions... 18 So I poured out my wrath on them... 24 ""For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh... 33 ""This is what the Sovereign Lord says: On the day I cleanse you from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt. 34 The desolate land will be cultivated instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass through it. 35 They will say, "This land that was laid waste has become like the garden of Eden; the cities that were lying in ruins, desolate and destroyed, are now fortified and inhabited." ...I the Lord have spoken, and I will do it.".

Ezekiel 37 :
11 Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, "Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off." 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: "This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. ...
21 and say to them, "This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. ... I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God... 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children"s children will live there forever, ... 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever...

Psalm 89 :
30 "If his sons forsake my law
...
32 I will punish their sin...
33 but I will not take my love from him,
nor will I ever betray my faithfulness.
34 I will not violate my covenant
or alter what my lips have uttered.

Psalm 105 : (also found in 1 Chronicles 16)
8 He remembers his covenant forever,
the promise he made, for a thousand generations,
9 the covenant he made with Abraham...
10 He confirmed it to Jacob ... to Israel as an everlastting covenant:
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
"Albert Einstein

http://www.twainquotes.com... , http://thewritecorner.wordpress.com... , http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com...
PGA
Posts: 4,045
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 4:51:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hi Deviladvocate,

Since you have supplied so many Scriptural passages I'll sit down later this evening or tomorrow in reply to your post.

Just a quick question for now. What do you believe Jesus meant in Matthew 5:17-18?

Peter
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 4:59:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Couldn't God have gotten us to write a more entertaining book, it's such a dry read. How does anyone even read a single page?
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
PGA
Posts: 4,045
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 5:30:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/30/2013 3:22:56 PM, annanicole wrote:
PGA: "To me, the most significant event in prophecy is A.D. 70."

Anna: It is very significant. How's that? VERY significant.

If you read Matthew 24, for instance, Jesus replies to the three pronged question His disciples ask Him (Matthew 24:3, when will this happen, what will be the sign of His coming and the end of the age. What does 'this happen' refer to? I believe the destruction of the temple, of not one stone being left upon another (Matthew 24:2). Do not forget, chapter and verse are a later addition. In Matthew 23 Jesus' pronounces judgment on the Pharisees and teachers of the law. He tells them that all the righteous judgment from Abel to Zechariah will come upon this generation, that their 'house' will be left to them desolate. He tells them (Matthew 23:32) to 'fill up...[b]the measure of the sin of your forefathers.'[/b] They did this in putting Him to death and during that generation (40 years). They rejected their Messiah.

PGA: "I think the OT looks towards it and the NT sees it just around the corner.:

Anna: True to Part 2 of the sentence, absolutely. I'm curious as to why you think the OT looks to AD 70. I've hardly thought about it, but I do not remember single OT prophesy would link to AD 70.

For instance (and there are so many verses of Scripture to choose from), I will take one that is directly connected to Matthew 24:15. Jesus said to [b]them[/b] that when [b[they[/b] see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation spoken of through Daniel the prophet - to flee from the city. So if you go back to Daniel 9:24-27 you understand that this is coming upon Daniel's people, the Jew. It is a time in which the holy city finishes its transgression, puts an end to sin, atones for wickedness, brings in everlasting righteousness, seals up vision, and anoints the most holy (or the Holy One). It is a time when the Anointed One will be cut off. It is also a time of war, and desolation in which the city and temple will be destroyed.

PGA: "Jesus keeps warning that particular generation of the time of the end, the last days, as do the Apostles and writers of the NT."

Anna: Bingo!

The question is what does '[b]this generation[/b]' refer to that is mentioned maybe 6-8 times in the gospels?

What is the end of the age that Jesus refers to in verse 3?

I believe it refers to the end of the Jewish age, the age of the Old Covenant.

PGA: "The entire NT revolves first and foremost around the Messiah's coming and God's promises to Israel, judgment upon these people for breaking His covenant and continuously worshiping foreign gods and this new righteousness in the New Covenant that brings in the kingdom age."

Anna: I would add for clarity the amazing amount of preaching that John and Jesus did concerning the kingdom which came on Pentecost - the church.

I believe that the kingdom came into its own after the destruction of the Old Covenant in A.D. 70. Before this the two existed side-by-side for 40 years.

What is the kingdom? How does it manifest itself? How did it manifest itself in the lives of these believers during those 40 years. It was spiritual in nature. Jesus throughout His ministry was always alluding to it being near, at the door, yet different from natural kingdoms.

PGA: "Soon to the time of writing would be during the first century, that particular generation, in which Hebrews 2-3 lists as being similar to the generation that perished in the desert (i.e., 40 years and disbelieving). From Jesus' death to A.D. 70 is within that time span."

Anna: More detail on that? Are you speaking of, for instance, the latter half of Heb 3?

I'll expand on this last statement later. I'm rushed, I have a dragon boat practice.

Peter
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 5:35:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/30/2013 5:30:41 PM, PGA wrote:
At 5/30/2013 3:22:56 PM, annanicole wrote:
PGA: "To me, the most significant event in prophecy is A.D. 70."

Anna: It is very significant. How's that? VERY significant.

If you read Matthew 24, for instance, Jesus replies to the three pronged question His disciples ask Him (Matthew 24:3, when will this happen, what will be the sign of His coming and the end of the age. What does 'this happen' refer to? I believe the destruction of the temple, of not one stone being left upon another (Matthew 24:2). Do not forget, chapter and verse are a later addition. In Matthew 23 Jesus' pronounces judgment on the Pharisees and teachers of the law. He tells them that all the righteous judgment from Abel to Zechariah will come upon this generation, that their 'house' will be left to them desolate. He tells them (Matthew 23:32) to 'fill up...[b]the measure of the sin of your forefathers.'[/b] They did this in putting Him to death and during that generation (40 years). They rejected their Messiah.

PGA: "I think the OT looks towards it and the NT sees it just around the corner.:

Anna: True to Part 2 of the sentence, absolutely. I'm curious as to why you think the OT looks to AD 70. I've hardly thought about it, but I do not remember single OT prophesy would link to AD 70.

For instance (and there are so many verses of Scripture to choose from), I will take one that is directly connected to Matthew 24:15. Jesus said to [b]them[/b] that when [b[they[/b] see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation spoken of through Daniel the prophet - to flee from the city. So if you go back to Daniel 9:24-27 you understand that this is coming upon Daniel's people, the Jew. It is a time in which the holy city finishes its transgression, puts an end to sin, atones for wickedness, brings in everlasting righteousness, seals up vision, and anoints the most holy (or the Holy One). It is a time when the Anointed One will be cut off. It is also a time of war, and desolation in which the city and temple will be destroyed.


PGA: "Jesus keeps warning that particular generation of the time of the end, the last days, as do the Apostles and writers of the NT."

Anna: Bingo!

The question is what does '[b]this generation[/b]' refer to that is mentioned maybe 6-8 times in the gospels?

What is the end of the age that Jesus refers to in verse 3?

I believe it refers to the end of the Jewish age, the age of the Old Covenant.


PGA: "The entire NT revolves first and foremost around the Messiah's coming and God's promises to Israel, judgment upon these people for breaking His covenant and continuously worshiping foreign gods and this new righteousness in the New Covenant that brings in the kingdom age."

Anna: I would add for clarity the amazing amount of preaching that John and Jesus did concerning the kingdom which came on Pentecost - the church.

I believe that the kingdom came into its own after the destruction of the Old Covenant in A.D. 70. Before this the two existed side-by-side for 40 years.

What is the kingdom? How does it manifest itself? How did it manifest itself in the lives of these believers during those 40 years. It was spiritual in nature. Jesus throughout His ministry was always alluding to it being near, at the door, yet different from natural kingdoms.

PGA: "Soon to the time of writing would be during the first century, that particular generation, in which Hebrews 2-3 lists as being similar to the generation that perished in the desert (i.e., 40 years and disbelieving). From Jesus' death to A.D. 70 is within that time span."

Anna: More detail on that? Are you speaking of, for instance, the latter half of Heb 3?

I'll expand on this last statement later. I'm rushed, I have a dragon boat practice.

Peter

Just as a heads up, if you want to manually bold something, you can't use b (and certainly not with a bracket), it's <carrot>strong<carrot>, then closed with <carrot>/strong<carrot>.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 5:42:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
PG: "I believe that the kingdom came into its own after the destruction of the Old Covenant in A.D. 70. Before this the two existed side-by-side for 40 years."

Anna: I believe the kingdom came into its own on Day 1, Pentecost. True, there was a transitional period, and true, the destruction of the temple/dispersion of the Jews removed the greatest hindrance to the early church. Judaism was on the one hand, the greatest obstacle facing Christianity, and on the other, the greatest stumbling-block to Christianity. Certainly the church of Christ benefited greatly from the removal of Judaism as a pest.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 8:33:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Jews are not abandoned, and they are still accountable to God and although he was angry with them many times, he still expects them to stick to the laws he gave them.

But before Jesus is back, the anti-Christ will come, and the I think the jews don't have knowledge about him in their scriptures. a Lot of them will follow him, and whoever follows him has lost.

Jesus will come after him and will kill him, then the remaining Jews, the Christians and the Muslims will all be brothers , will all believe in Jesus who will be their king, for until the time is up.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 8:47:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Don't ya just love each group of people proclaiming it's self to be the saved, the enlightened, the faithful, the remnant, the holders of the truth, Gods anointed, the holders of keys to heaven and hell, the cool aid drinkers.........errr forget that last one.

But but but, I have the TRUTH, of course you do..................just like everybody else.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
PGA
Posts: 4,045
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 8:48:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hi Bladerunner060,
Just as a heads up, if you want to manually bold something, you can't use b (and certainly not with a bracket), it's <carrot>strong<carrot>, then closed with <carrot>/strong<carrot>.

Thanks, I'm new to this particular format. On every other debate forum I've been on you use these [ ] brackets. If you want to embolden something you use [b]text[/b], underline [u]text[/u], etc. I just noticed the icons at the bottom of the page.

The other thing I noticed was if I made a spelling mistake or grammatical error I don't seem to be able to go in after the fact and correct my text.

Peter
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 8:49:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/30/2013 8:33:36 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Jews are not abandoned, and they are still accountable to God and although he was angry with them many times, he still expects them to stick to the laws he gave them.

Racism.


But before Jesus is back, the anti-Christ will come, and the I think the jews don't have knowledge about him in their scriptures. a Lot of them will follow him, and whoever follows him has lost.

You just lost the game.


Jesus will come after him and will kill him, then the remaining Jews, the Christians and the Muslims will all be brothers , will all believe in Jesus who will be their king, for until the time is up.

Be careful or you'll be history. Looks like another unsolved mystery. It's murder, murder, murder.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 8:51:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/30/2013 8:47:41 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
Don't ya just love each group of people proclaiming it's self to be the saved, the enlightened, the faithful, the remnant, the holders of the truth, Gods anointed, the holders of keys to heaven and hell, the cool aid drinkers.........errr forget that last one.

But but but, I have the TRUTH, of course you do..................just like everybody else.

But many people's truth only requires a three letter word and a novel associated with it.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 8:53:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/30/2013 8:48:46 PM, PGA wrote:

The other thing I noticed was if I made a spelling mistake or grammatical error I don't seem to be able to go in after the fact and correct my text.

Peter

Nobody would abuse that feature on a debate website.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
PGA
Posts: 4,045
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 10:16:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/30/2013 5:42:42 PM, annanicole wrote:
PG: "I believe that the kingdom came into its own after the destruction of the Old Covenant in A.D. 70. Before this the two existed side-by-side for 40 years."

Anna: I believe the kingdom came into its own on Day 1, Pentecost. True, there was a transitional period, and true, the destruction of the temple/dispersion of the Jews removed the greatest hindrance to the early church. Judaism was on the one hand, the greatest obstacle facing Christianity, and on the other, the greatest stumbling-block to Christianity. Certainly the church of Christ benefited greatly from the removal of Judaism as a pest.

I think you could argue for the kingdom being in its infancy at Pentecost, but became rooted and fully established only in A.D. 70. The old and the new could not exist side-by-side.

In the Book of Hebrews we see the contrast between what is (at that time) and what is yet to come soon or shortly. Now some Bible scholars believe Hebrews was written in the early A.D. 60's. Now if it was only written then, long after Pentecost, then the fullness of the kingdom was not yet present as it still mentions removing what can still be shaken. The book was written to encourage those Hebrew Christians who were in danger of turning back to Judaism. Thus you see the contrast between the two covenants. The point is that this is way past Pentecost. We still see the old kingdom model at work with priests, sacrifices and offerings. There is this constant contrast between the old and the new, better covenant, between Christ's sacrifice and their sacrifices, between Christ's mediation and their mediation, between Moses as a faithful servant in God's household and Christ as a faithful Son, between Moses taking them into the physical Promised Land and Christ, the Second Moses taking us into the new and better Promised Land - the heavenly kingdom, between the old Mount Sinai where the Old Covenant/law began and the New Mount Zion where the New Covenant begins, between the earthly Jerusalem and the heavenly Jerusalem, between what can be shaken and what cannot be shaken. It says in Hebrews 12:27-28,

The words "once more" indicate the removal of what can be shaken - that is, created things - so that what cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful and worship God acceptably with reverence and awe,..."

I believe the last vestiges of the old were only removed in A.D. 70. We no longer have OT Israel because we no longer have the OT sacrificial system, priesthood, animal sacrifices, genealogies, city or temple. They are no longer needed in order for one to be right with God. They were always a temporary thing, the reality being Christ. (Galatians 4:21-31) That was all destroyed in A.D. 70 and not before. I believe that when God brought judgment upon this people the church became the new Israel of God, the spiritual people of God. His kingdom came.

When Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18 that not one jot or title of the law would be abolished until everything was accomplished that included the judgment upon this nation for its apostasy under the law of Moses, for continually breaking the covenant it agreed to follow with God in Deuteronomy 28-32. They agreed to follow and be obedient to God in order to receive His blessings. Well, in A.D. 70 it was the final straw.

The law was given to lead us to Christ (Galatians 3:19-25) but now we are no longer under the law, but under grace (Hebrews 10:1).

"The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming - not the realities themselves."

This law was still in effect until A.D. 70.

I believe it was not until A.d. 70 that the kingdom was fully established, when the kingdoms of this earth became the kingdoms of the Lord. It had to be during the time of the Roman kingdom that God would set up His eternal kingdom that would never perish (see Daniel 2:44)

Jesus first had to come in power and glory with His angels before the kingdom would be established. If you want to see the argument for this assertion then please read the following link:

http://www.eschatology.org...

Peter
1Devilsadvocate
Posts: 1,518
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 10:34:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/30/2013 4:59:48 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
Couldn't God have gotten us to write a more entertaining book, it's such a dry read. How does anyone even read a single page?

I've heard the same said about Shakspeare, and every other great writing.
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
"Albert Einstein

http://www.twainquotes.com... , http://thewritecorner.wordpress.com... , http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com...
PGA
Posts: 4,045
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 10:40:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/30/2013 8:33:36 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Jews are not abandoned, and they are still accountable to God and although he was angry with them many times, he still expects them to stick to the laws he gave them.

But before Jesus is back, the anti-Christ will come, and the I think the jews don't have knowledge about him in their scriptures. a Lot of them will follow him, and whoever follows him has lost.

Jesus will come after him and will kill him, then the remaining Jews, the Christians and the Muslims will all be brothers , will all believe in Jesus who will be their king, for until the time is up.

Hi Fruitytree,

How can they (the OT Jews)? They don't exist any more. How do they make atonement for their sins? The law required an animal sacrifice. It required bringing that sacrifice to the priest and then he taking it before the alter. Where do you see this happening today?

Jesus came to OT Israel. He came to save His people, to make atonement for their sins by offering Himself as the sacrifice, to bring in an everlasting righteousness by meeting all God's righteous requirements, and He came to bring judgment on apostate Israel, on those who would not accept His kingdom and His kingship. What is more He entered a better tabernacle than what was present on earth in order to appear before God for man.

What was the covenant that God made with Israel in Deuteronomy? I think it was the Old Covenant. Did not Jesus die to put an end to the covenant of works? Did He not die to bring in everlasting righteousness for those who believe? Did He accomplish what He set out to do?

Concerning the anti-Christ, did not John address the issue to those brothers back in the 1st century?

"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us..." - 1 John 2:18-19a

Please notice the highlighted tenses and the pronouns (i.e. present tense), applying to those at that time. So who is the Scripture addressing and and when?

Peter
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/30/2013 10:53:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
PGA: "I think you could argue for the kingdom being in its infancy at Pentecost,"

Anna: Yep

PGA: but became rooted and fully established only in A.D. 70. The old and the new could not exist side-by-side.

Anna: That's just it: it was rooted, organized, and "fully established" with tens of thousands of members all over the then-known world ... before A. D. 70.
The siege and destruction of Jerusalem did was: remove the (by-far) major consistent source of hindrance ... resistance ... persecution against Christianity. The old didn't "exist" as far as being pleasing to God.

PGA: Of the OT sacrificial system, priesthood, animal sacrifices, genealogies, city or temple, you say, "They are no longer needed in order for one to be right with God."

Anna: At what point exactly did they become "no longer needed"?

PGA: "This law was still in effect until A.D. 70."

Anna: Still in effect ... how? Was not the religion of the Law nailed to the cross ... taken away ... blotted out ... at the cross? Is it not true that what was in effect from about AD 33 until AD 70 was simply the Jewish civil state?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."