Total Posts:61|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Is religion dying?

Freeman
Posts: 1,239
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/30/2009 11:09:32 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I just did an ethnography on Rick Warren's Church and while I was there I noticed that most of the people were either middle aged or elderly. Consequently, at least one third of them aren't going to be alive in the next thirty years. And that would probably be a generous estimate. It would appear as if religion is dying, literally.

One wonders how long religion can survive given this current state of affairs. Atheism is on the rise in virtually every part of the world and it's growing the fastest among young people between the ages of 16 to 30. Is this just a current trend or is this foretelling of something much larger? Does this ultimately mean that the secularization theory is correct?
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/1/2009 4:00:46 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 11:09:32 PM, Freeman wrote:
I just did an ethnography on Rick Warren's Church and while I was there I noticed that most of the people were either middle aged or elderly. Consequently, at least one third of them aren't going to be alive in the next thirty years. And that would probably be a generous estimate. It would appear as if religion is dying, literally.

One wonders how long religion can survive given this current state of affairs. Atheism is on the rise in virtually every part of the world and it's growing the fastest among young people between the ages of 16 to 30. Is this just a current trend or is this foretelling of something much larger? Does this ultimately mean that the secularization theory is correct?

All revolutions in Religion stem from advances in communication. This is because Religion, like racism, only thrives in populations of sheep. The more one is exposed to alternatives, the less likely it is they will remain sheep-like.

The Catholic Church wielded near infinite power up until the concepts of movable type made it to Europe and Gutenberg fashioned one that could print the Bible for the masses. Around this time, the Church split.

Now, several hundred years later, the Internet is doing something similar. When ideas are exchanged, the theist usually comes up shorthanded. People are seeing the light of reason through their computer monitors. Religion will die before I do.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/1/2009 4:13:46 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Yes, religion is dying, and it's about time! 12,000 years has been long enough. Time for another Enlightenment era, except one hopes it will be a global one that actually lasts through the ages. I'll be happy if I can see it within my lifetime.

Skip to minute [2:40] lol. "But in this Universe, Christianity never existed, which means the dark ages of scientific repression never occurred. And thus humanity is 1,000 years more advanced. Ergo, muscular, genetic, and perfect pigs." - Stewie
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/1/2009 6:54:50 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Religion is dying out, but we can't expect it to be completely gone for another 150 years.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/1/2009 7:17:00 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
I don't know Mormons and the like have such high birth rates, if people aren't regularly abandoning these religions, I have to think they'll displace everyone eventually.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/1/2009 8:56:12 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
One thing to consider to see if it truly is dying is the statistics of younger people converting to atheism may not reflect future statistics as much as you would want.
Because looking back at all the people who are old and converting to a religion claiming a history of being atheist until they "saw the light". perhaps the atheist converting is short lived for the individual; changing as soon as they turn close to 40.
Meanwhile collage age remains the usual time in the average religious persons life that they were atheist.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
JBlake
Posts: 4,634
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/1/2009 11:40:21 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
As much as I wish the proposition were true, I don't think religion will die until Humanity does.

The youth are generally less religious. This is true of most generations. Perhaps this generation will see fewer conversions as we age, but religion certainly will not die in our lifetimes.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/1/2009 12:00:39 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Religion will be around long after we are gone.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/1/2009 12:09:07 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Religion isn't "dying" per se. It is losing its credibility and its relevance as a stand-alone power, especially in Western countries, but it is far from "dying."

Look around. 90% of the population still believes in the tenets of their background beliefs. More than that believe in some sort of "higher power." Even more agree that religion is a moral compass for society.

Secularization has reduced religion to much less than it was, to be sure. That is, the institution of religion. Belief is still there, and support is still there. Religion has just adapted to a much more passive role in people's lives. Doesn't mean its gone, and doesn't mean its dying. Just means its adapted to the current situation its faced with.

And remember - this is only in Western society. There are other people in the world, aye.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/1/2009 12:50:32 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 12/1/2009 12:45:43 PM, StephenAlsop wrote:
no it is not most places it is actually growing

Proof?
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/1/2009 12:51:21 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 12/1/2009 12:45:43 PM, StephenAlsop wrote:
no it is not most places it is actually growing

Fundamentalists and apologists are growing, however, overall religious numbers are falling.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/1/2009 1:15:11 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
No, it's not. Just because something is decreasing doesn't mean it's going to die. Even If Christianity dies, Religion will, real or not, stay. Religion is Society; it's the happinest and feels of the World. It is our grace and honor to what we feel about in the world, religion forms are Ethic and Mortality and our Body. Religion and Human Life are inseparable.

+It's like Objectivism, based on the rants of Hate and Love.

See:
The Elementary Forms of the Religious Life -- Émile Durkheim
The Origin Of Beliefs' -- Émile Durkheim
"God is society, writ large." -- Émile Durkheim

Also See:
The Gay Science -- Friedrich Nietzsche
Thus Spoke Zarathustra -- Friedrich Nietzsche
'sup DDO -- july 2013
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/1/2009 1:51:53 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 12/1/2009 1:15:11 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
No, it's not. Just because something is decreasing doesn't mean it's going to die. Even If Christianity dies, Religion will, real or not, stay. Religion is Society; it's the happinest and feels of the World. It is our grace and honor to what we feel about in the world, religion forms are Ethic and Mortality and our Body.Religion and Human Life are inseparable.

See: Atheism and Secularism \ France
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/1/2009 2:44:05 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 12/1/2009 1:15:11 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
No, it's not. Just because something is decreasing doesn't mean it's going to die. Even If Christianity dies, Religion will, real or not, stay. Religion is Society; it's the happinest and feels of the World. It is our grace and honor to what we feel about in the world, religion forms are Ethic and Mortality and our Body. Religion and Human Life are inseparable.

+It's like Objectivism, based on the rants of Hate and Love.

See:
The Elementary Forms of the Religious Life -- Émile Durkheim
The Origin Of Beliefs' -- Émile Durkheim
"God is society, writ large." -- Émile Durkheim

Also See:
The Gay Science -- Friedrich Nietzsche
Thus Spoke Zarathustra -- Friedrich Nietzsche

Oh really? Are you willing to debate that?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
leet4A1
Posts: 1,986
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/1/2009 2:51:30 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
All I can say is that I hope so. Astrology, too... I'm f*cking sick of being forced to share a society with a bunch of morons.
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
banker
Posts: 1,370
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/1/2009 2:54:41 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
well yong people never went to church
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
feverish
Posts: 2,716
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/1/2009 3:09:08 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 12/1/2009 12:50:32 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 12/1/2009 12:45:43 PM, StephenAlsop wrote:
no it is not most places it is actually growing

Proof?

From a few minutes googling, it does seem that most religions are still growing in number and that on a global scale the world is actually becoming more rather than less religious.

http://www.religioustolerance.org... This site presents a pretty clear picture although I was a bit taken aback by their classification of Atheism as a religion in its own right (separate from "no religion").

It seems that while Christianity is still swelling its membership, it's percentage of world population is falling (but still the largest).

http://www.foreignpolicy.com... This shows growth rates of different religions.

http://www.vexen.co.uk... This shows that religious worship is definitely declining in Britain where I live.
Freeman
Posts: 1,239
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/1/2009 10:46:50 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
The youth are generally less religious. This is true of most generations. Perhaps this generation will see fewer conversions as we age, but religion certainly will not die in our lifetimes.

Yahweh will breathe his last breath before I do. It would be inconceivable that religion would survive the scientific advancements that will occur in the 21st century.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
Puck
Posts: 6,457
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/2/2009 2:04:25 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 12/1/2009 10:46:50 PM, Freeman wrote:

Yahweh will breathe his last breath before I do. It would be inconceivable that religion would survive the scientific advancements that will occur in the 21st century.

Much similar was said in to 70s where there was a growing public scientific discourse - still didn't pan out. I'm more inclined with Hitchens on this one; religion will die when people stop needing it.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/2/2009 2:26:34 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 12/2/2009 2:04:25 AM, Puck wrote:
I'm more inclined with Hitchens on this one; religion will die when people stop needing it.

I would suggest that people think they need it. However, it only takes a small bit of rational thought to realize that it's more of a "poison" (as Hitchins suggests), than something that someone needs.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Puck
Posts: 6,457
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/2/2009 3:26:51 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 12/2/2009 2:26:34 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 12/2/2009 2:04:25 AM, Puck wrote:
I'm more inclined with Hitchens on this one; religion will die when people stop needing it.

I would suggest that people think they need it. However, it only takes a small bit of rational thought to realize that it's more of a "poison" (as Hitchins suggests), than something that someone needs.

Much of muchness. :) Needing/think you need it are essentially of the same value here (it can easily be argued no one actually *needs* it). Asking people to be rational is all good and great, however it still requires people to actually have the required mental hierarchy and concepts for that to work - which brings us back to the need/think you need it concepts already there in opposition. :P

Sure, it's more likely to occur in those with less than a lifetime of self indoctrination, but those long institutionalised are also the ones doing the indoctrination of others - and when you have younger peers start doing the same it becomes all together cyclical. The amount of excessive denial in the religious (of many aspects; misinformation, disinformation, morality, empirics etc.), and the memes that allow it, propagate it and propel it are the greatest threats - these just support whatever the individual actually gets from whatever religion they follow.
banker
Posts: 1,370
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/2/2009 4:23:30 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
I like how ethiests knock and disrespect believers views and complaign that believers are not "rational"... The same people who up until now adopted global warming as a religion and invested in green more then any religion invested in churches,discovered how unrational they are...! Green ethiests where shocked that god does not need green to help him save his world...! Since according to athiests we are grandchildren from monkies "rational" for monky families is to respect their grandparents and give grand pa rights hance animal rights and global warming rational vs religion ... We see ethiests have all right to disrespect majority view...!
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
Puck
Posts: 6,457
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/2/2009 4:51:49 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Atheism is the agreement with non-existence of god(s). That is it. Any 'atheists believe' outside of that can do without the atheist tag line. Atheism is not a position on global warming, a claim of rationality, a position on evolution or animal rights.

However amusing, since your prior link of the Bulgarian ufo fan, uses that platform solely to push a green agenda. As to what you actually believe, at best what I've gathered is that you dislike Islam but only because of humanitarian reasons not any metaphysical denial - but any other kookery is apparently ok. Take care of your own home before asserting what you think is in mine. :)
banker
Posts: 1,370
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/2/2009 7:28:23 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 12/2/2009 4:51:49 AM, Puck wrote:
Atheism is the agreement with non-existence of god(s). That is it. Any 'atheists believe' outside of that can do without the atheist tag line. Atheism is not a position on global warming,
however its a derivative of it,since its based on deniying gods ability to manage and secure his world
a claim of rationality, a position on evolution or animal rights.
typical ethisem not taking responsibility on anything


However amusing, since your prior link of the Bulgarian ufo fan, uses that platform solely to push a green agenda. As to what you actually believe, at best what I've gathered is that you dislike Islam but only because of humanitarian reasons not any metaphysical denial - but any other kookery is apparently ok.
even if its not ok who are you to judge others who dont harm you?
Take care of your own home before asserting what you think is in mine. :)
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
Puck
Posts: 6,457
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/2/2009 7:43:42 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 12/2/2009 7:28:23 AM, banker wrote:
At 12/2/2009 4:51:49 AM, Puck wrote:
Atheism is the agreement with non-existence of god(s). That is it. Any 'atheists believe' outside of that can do without the atheist tag line. Atheism is not a position on global warming,

however its a derivative of it,since its based on deniying gods ability to manage and secure his world

You would be hard pressed to find any consistent literature on that point. Notably many of the Evangelical side of Christianity espouse global warming precisely an effect of God's will.

a claim of rationality, a position on evolution or animal rights.

typical ethisem not taking responsibility on anything

Do you expect otherwise? Atheism is a specific term for a specific thing. An atheist while pertaining to that one specificity is of course not limited to it, that does not make what any one atheist believes in addition to atheism a part of atheism. Expecting the term atheism to denote anything other than the definition of atheism is silly.

However amusing, since your prior link of the Bulgarian ufo fan, uses that platform solely to push a green agenda. As to what you actually believe, at best what I've gathered is that you dislike Islam but only because of humanitarian reasons not any metaphysical denial - but any other kookery is apparently ok.

even if its not ok who are you to judge others who dont harm you?

You are not a female yet insist on spamming us with decries of Muslim treatment of women. Short of you wearing a dress and selecting a shade of lipstick, such concerns don't effect you either, yet here you are...

Ones own beliefs give rise to a standard upon which other claims and actions are judged. It's how we make viable use of such terms as good and bad.
gr33k_fr33k5
Posts: 321
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/2/2009 7:56:05 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 12/1/2009 7:17:00 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I don't know Mormons and the like have such high birth rates, if people aren't regularly abandoning these religions, I have to think they'll displace everyone eventually.

its true, in France the muslim:everyone else children per family is 8:1 . . . . some religions may be dying out. . . but the muslims certainly aren't. . ..

did you know that Europe will be primarily muslim in 30 years? . .. . veeeery interesting
I am free, free indeed!

ignorance is bliss