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Are we really called to argue in the name of

Amish
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6/4/2013 7:46:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Christ?

What does it even mean to be a "Christian"? Should we argue endlessly over whether the LORD God exists in "all possible worlds"? Should we fabricate ridiculously sounding terms like "particularism" or "providentialism"? ...or, are we called to live like Christ, simply and to ourselves?

For me and my comrades, it's the latter...definitely. I spend time reading the Bible, and studying the Old and the New Testaments, not because I wish to argue with people about it, but rather so I can enlighten people and draw them nearer to Jesus Christ our LORD and Savior. If people were convinced by defending our faith in philosophy, then they'd already be Christians and we could already have these conversations with them. Chances are...if you try to argue some sort of "watchmaker analogy" they won't be very impressed.

Before I came to this site...I read a lot of people's debates and posts on the forums. What really struck me was how devoid of life the Christians' posts really are. I'm Amish, that's no secret from my name, but I think and I'm pretty sure at least most Christians agree that we should do things in the name of Jesus Christ, not philosophy.

So I leave you with one final sentence...think about it...God called us in the Bible to spread the Gospel and the good news of our risen Savior...not to come up with boring logical outlines.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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6/4/2013 8:14:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 7:46:31 PM, Amish wrote:
Christ?

Yes. Jesus argued (Luke 20:27-40), Peter argued (Acts, 2:22-36), Apollos argued (Acts 18:28), Paul argued (Acts 9:29, Acts 19:8, 2 Corinthians 10:5, Philippians 1:16), and we are commanded to argue (1 Peter 3:15, Jude 1:3).

What does it even mean to be a "Christian"?

To be a follower of Christ.

Should we argue endlessly over whether the LORD God exists in "all possible worlds"?

Not endlessly.

Should we fabricate ridiculously sounding terms like "particularism" or "providentialism"?

There's nothing ridiculous about those terms, and if they help facilitate communication, then we should use them.

...or, are we called to live like Christ, simply and to ourselves?

Christ certainly did not live simply and to himself. You don't get crucified by keeping quiet and to yourself.

For me and my comrades, it's the latter...definitely.

Then why aren't you keeping to yourself? Why are you arguing for your point of view?

I spend time reading the Bible, and studying the Old and the New Testaments, not because I wish to argue with people about it, but rather so I can enlighten people and draw them nearer to Jesus Christ our LORD and Savior.

You're making a false dichotomy between arguing and enlightening. Arguing is a means by which you can enlighten people.

If people were convinced by defending our faith in philosophy, then they'd already be Christians and we could already have these conversations with them.

They can't be convinced by arguments before they hear them.

Chances are...if you try to argue some sort of "watchmaker analogy" they won't be very impressed.

Telelogical arguments are what convinced Antony Flew to go from atheism to deism. He obviously was impressed by those kinds of arguments.

http://www.amazon.com...

I'm Amish, that's no secret from my name, but I think and I'm pretty sure at least most Christians agree that we should do things in the name of Jesus Christ, not philosophy.

Why can't we do philosophy in the name of Jesus Christ?

So I leave you with one final sentence...think about it...God called us in the Bible to spread the Gospel and the good news of our risen Savior...not to come up with boring logical outlines.

On the contrary, we are called to give a apologia (i.e. a defense) of the gospel (1 Peter 3:15). Nowhere in the Bible will you see any of the apostles saying, "Just believe." They gave arguments and reasons for why people should believe, and so should we.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Bullish
Posts: 3,527
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6/4/2013 8:42:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'd love it if you guys could keep to your selves.

At 6/4/2013 8:25:01 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
You write well for an amish person. Also, I didn't know you guys used the internet.

That's only for the Old Orders.
0x5f3759df
Suqua
Posts: 433
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6/5/2013 12:35:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 7:46:31 PM, Amish wrote:
Christ?

What does it even mean to be a "Christian"? Should we argue endlessly over whether the LORD God exists in "all possible worlds"? Should we fabricate ridiculously sounding terms like "particularism" or "providentialism"? ...or, are we called to live like Christ, simply and to ourselves?

For me and my comrades, it's the latter...definitely. I spend time reading the Bible, and studying the Old and the New Testaments, not because I wish to argue with people about it, but rather so I can enlighten people and draw them nearer to Jesus Christ our LORD and Savior. If people were convinced by defending our faith in philosophy, then they'd already be Christians and we could already have these conversations with them. Chances are...if you try to argue some sort of "watchmaker analogy" they won't be very impressed.

Before I came to this site...I read a lot of people's debates and posts on the forums. What really struck me was how devoid of life the Christians' posts really are. I'm Amish, that's no secret from my name, but I think and I'm pretty sure at least most Christians agree that we should do things in the name of Jesus Christ, not philosophy.

So I leave you with one final sentence...think about it...God called us in the Bible to spread the Gospel and the good news of our risen Savior...not to come up with boring logical outlines.

Why are you not of the old order? Why a break away? Misunderstanding, new understanding, other? Same as on here. We're not here to argue for argue sake. Iron sharpens iron, if you get the meaning. This is also good news that we can discuss these topics. Its ugly when people loose it and name call, but you get that when you rub shoulders with people. Not everone agreed with Christ either, thats why He was murdered.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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6/5/2013 7:57:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
If you were to be meant to argue in the name of somebody then it would be in the name of God , the one who sent Jesus , not Jesus himself, as Jesus himself argued for God sake , not for his own sake take example of him.And in order to Argue, you need to arm yourself with knowledge and patience Just like Jesus was knowledgeable of OT that allowed him to argue, and just like his apostles did once they had knowledge and once Jesus left to His God. It's like fighting for a cause.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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6/5/2013 8:48:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/5/2013 7:57:38 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
If you were to be meant to argue in the name of somebody then it would be in the name of God , the one who sent Jesus , not Jesus himself, as Jesus himself argued for God sake , not for his own sake take example of him.And in order to Argue, you need to arm yourself with knowledge and patience Just like Jesus was knowledgeable of OT that allowed him to argue, and just like his apostles did once they had knowledge and once Jesus left to His God. It's like fighting for a cause.

I know you are not a Christian lol but this is what we believe Philippians 2:5-11, John 14:6
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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6/5/2013 9:00:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/5/2013 8:48:20 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/5/2013 7:57:38 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
If you were to be meant to argue in the name of somebody then it would be in the name of God , the one who sent Jesus , not Jesus himself, as Jesus himself argued for God sake , not for his own sake take example of him.And in order to Argue, you need to arm yourself with knowledge and patience Just like Jesus was knowledgeable of OT that allowed him to argue, and just like his apostles did once they had knowledge and once Jesus left to His God. It's like fighting for a cause.

I know you are not a Christian lol but this is what we believe Philippians 2:5-11, John 14:6

6"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

No objection:

The way = the example to follow.

The truth opposite of falsehood, and God word is the truth indeed.

The life = eternal life, that we can hope for only through proper belief that Jesus came to teach.

But I can't see if this has anything against what I said ?
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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6/5/2013 9:47:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/5/2013 9:00:33 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 6/5/2013 8:48:20 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/5/2013 7:57:38 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
If you were to be meant to argue in the name of somebody then it would be in the name of God , the one who sent Jesus , not Jesus himself, as Jesus himself argued for God sake , not for his own sake take example of him.And in order to Argue, you need to arm yourself with knowledge and patience Just like Jesus was knowledgeable of OT that allowed him to argue, and just like his apostles did once they had knowledge and once Jesus left to His God. It's like fighting for a cause.

I know you are not a Christian lol but this is what we believe Philippians 2:5-11, John 14:6

6"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

No objection:

The way = the example to follow.

The truth opposite of falsehood, and God word is the truth indeed.

The life = eternal life, that we can hope for only through proper belief that Jesus came to teach.

But I can't see if this has anything against what I said ?

I don't need additional translations thanks, and the last sentence in that verse is what you missed, BUT BY ME. ME means Jesus. In order to get to the Father, we go through Jesus, He is our mediator.....The only way to the Father.
When we argue in the name of Jesus, we ARE arguing in the name of God. No objections? Did you read the Philippians verse? PHILIPPIANS 2:9,10 DOES speak against what you said here, they are EQUAL. When we argue in the name of Jesus, we ARE arguing in the name of God, that is what a Christian does.
v3nesl
Posts: 4,499
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6/5/2013 10:07:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 8:14:15 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 6/4/2013 7:46:31 PM, Amish wrote:
Christ?

Yes. Jesus argued (Luke 20:27-40), Peter argued (Acts, 2:22-36), Apollos argued (Acts 18:28), Paul argued (Acts 9:29, Acts 19:8, 2 Corinthians 10:5, Philippians 1:16), and we are commanded to argue (1 Peter 3:15, Jude 1:3).

What does it even mean to be a "Christian"?

To be a follower of Christ.

Should we argue endlessly over whether the LORD God exists in "all possible worlds"?

Not endlessly.

Should we fabricate ridiculously sounding terms like "particularism" or "providentialism"?

There's nothing ridiculous about those terms, and if they help facilitate communication, then we should use them.

...or, are we called to live like Christ, simply and to ourselves?

Christ certainly did not live simply and to himself. You don't get crucified by keeping quiet and to yourself.

For me and my comrades, it's the latter...definitely.

Then why aren't you keeping to yourself? Why are you arguing for your point of view?

I spend time reading the Bible, and studying the Old and the New Testaments, not because I wish to argue with people about it, but rather so I can enlighten people and draw them nearer to Jesus Christ our LORD and Savior.

You're making a false dichotomy between arguing and enlightening. Arguing is a means by which you can enlighten people.

If people were convinced by defending our faith in philosophy, then they'd already be Christians and we could already have these conversations with them.

They can't be convinced by arguments before they hear them.

Chances are...if you try to argue some sort of "watchmaker analogy" they won't be very impressed.

Telelogical arguments are what convinced Antony Flew to go from atheism to deism. He obviously was impressed by those kinds of arguments.

http://www.amazon.com...

I'm Amish, that's no secret from my name, but I think and I'm pretty sure at least most Christians agree that we should do things in the name of Jesus Christ, not philosophy.

Why can't we do philosophy in the name of Jesus Christ?

So I leave you with one final sentence...think about it...God called us in the Bible to spread the Gospel and the good news of our risen Savior...not to come up with boring logical outlines.

On the contrary, we are called to give a apologia (i.e. a defense) of the gospel (1 Peter 3:15). Nowhere in the Bible will you see any of the apostles saying, "Just believe." They gave arguments and reasons for why people should believe, and so should we.

A brilliant post, bro!
This space for rent.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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6/5/2013 10:46:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/5/2013 9:47:49 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/5/2013 9:00:33 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 6/5/2013 8:48:20 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/5/2013 7:57:38 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
If you were to be meant to argue in the name of somebody then it would be in the name of God , the one who sent Jesus , not Jesus himself, as Jesus himself argued for God sake , not for his own sake take example of him.And in order to Argue, you need to arm yourself with knowledge and patience Just like Jesus was knowledgeable of OT that allowed him to argue, and just like his apostles did once they had knowledge and once Jesus left to His God. It's like fighting for a cause.

I know you are not a Christian lol but this is what we believe Philippians 2:5-11, John 14:6

6"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

No objection:

The way = the example to follow.

The truth opposite of falsehood, and God word is the truth indeed.

The life = eternal life, that we can hope for only through proper belief that Jesus came to teach.

But I can't see if this has anything against what I said ?

I don't need additional translations thanks, and the last sentence in that verse is what you missed, BUT BY ME. ME means Jesus. In order to get to the Father, we go through Jesus, He is our mediator.....The only way to the Father.
When we argue in the name of Jesus, we ARE arguing in the name of God. No objections? Did you read the Philippians verse? PHILIPPIANS 2:9,10 DOES speak against what you said here, they are EQUAL. When we argue in the name of Jesus, we ARE arguing in the name of God, that is what a Christian does.

But by me doesn't mean we got to worship him but to follow him and worship God like him.

We Muslims believe if one doesn't believe in any prophet mentioned in Quran then he disbelieved!

So the above verse doesn't contradict my faith in anyway, au contraire!

How do you understand this "But by me" ?
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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6/5/2013 10:55:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/5/2013 9:47:49 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
Did you read the Philippians verse? PHILIPPIANS 2:9,10 DOES speak against what you said here, they are EQUAL. When we argue in the name of Jesus, we ARE arguing in the name of God, that is what a Christian does.Ok I read it now but those are not Jesus words! so I'm not sure why I should consider them if they aren't supported by is authentically reported from Jesus.As Jesus is the prophet to follow, his apostles are humans, they can be right, and they can be wrong and they even can go astray!
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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6/5/2013 11:01:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/5/2013 10:46:40 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 6/5/2013 9:47:49 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/5/2013 9:00:33 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 6/5/2013 8:48:20 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/5/2013 7:57:38 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
If you were to be meant to argue in the name of somebody then it would be in the name of God , the one who sent Jesus , not Jesus himself, as Jesus himself argued for God sake , not for his own sake take example of him.And in order to Argue, you need to arm yourself with knowledge and patience Just like Jesus was knowledgeable of OT that allowed him to argue, and just like his apostles did once they had knowledge and once Jesus left to His God. It's like fighting for a cause.

I know you are not a Christian lol but this is what we believe Philippians 2:5-11, John 14:6

6"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

No objection:

The way = the example to follow.

The truth opposite of falsehood, and God word is the truth indeed.

The life = eternal life, that we can hope for only through proper belief that Jesus came to teach.

But I can't see if this has anything against what I said ?

I don't need additional translations thanks, and the last sentence in that verse is what you missed, BUT BY ME. ME means Jesus. In order to get to the Father, we go through Jesus, He is our mediator.....The only way to the Father.
When we argue in the name of Jesus, we ARE arguing in the name of God. No objections? Did you read the Philippians verse? PHILIPPIANS 2:9,10 DOES speak against what you said here, they are EQUAL. When we argue in the name of Jesus, we ARE arguing in the name of God, that is what a Christian does.

But by me doesn't mean we got to worship him but to follow him and worship God like him.

We Muslims believe if one doesn't believe in any prophet mentioned in Quran then he disbelieved!

So the above verse doesn't contradict my faith in anyway, au contraire!

How do you understand this "But by me" ?

Like I said, I know you are not a Christian but I'm sure you're aware of what we believe right? So when we speak on behalf of Jesus, we speak for God Himself, did you read the Philippians verse??? That should cover most of it lol.
I'm not disputing your faith, I'm just explaining why Christians atone for Christ. Jesus said I AM...... BY ME.... not by His message or by His beliefs and example but by HIMSELF. It's pretty clear.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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6/5/2013 11:03:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
1 Peter 3:15-16

But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, / keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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6/5/2013 11:07:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/5/2013 10:55:26 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 6/5/2013 9:47:49 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
Did you read the Philippians verse? PHILIPPIANS 2:9,10 DOES speak against what you said here, they are EQUAL. When we argue in the name of Jesus, we ARE arguing in the name of God, that is what a Christian does.Ok I read it now but those are not Jesus words! so I'm not sure why I should consider them if they aren't supported by is authentically reported from Jesus.As Jesus is the prophet to follow, his apostles are humans, they can be right, and they can be wrong and they even can go astray!

Excuse me I missed this thanks for reading that verse. Yes, that is what I believe.

Well I guess that's your opinion and why you're not a Christian lol. I can't help you there.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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6/5/2013 11:14:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/5/2013 10:55:26 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 6/5/2013 9:47:49 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
Did you read the Philippians verse? PHILIPPIANS 2:9,10 DOES speak against what you said here, they are EQUAL. When we argue in the name of Jesus, we ARE arguing in the name of God, that is what a Christian does.Ok I read it now but those are not Jesus words! so I'm not sure why I should consider them if they aren't supported by is authentically reported from Jesus.As Jesus is the prophet to follow, his apostles are humans, they can be right, and they can be wrong and they even can go astray!

I would suggest reading the entirety of the Gospels to have a clear understanding and then just pray about it with an open heart and spirit, that's about all you can do.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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6/5/2013 11:15:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/5/2013 11:01:03 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/5/2013 10:46:40 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 6/5/2013 9:47:49 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/5/2013 9:00:33 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 6/5/2013 8:48:20 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/5/2013 7:57:38 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
If you were to be meant to argue in the name of somebody then it would be in the name of God , the one who sent Jesus , not Jesus himself, as Jesus himself argued for God sake , not for his own sake take example of him.And in order to Argue, you need to arm yourself with knowledge and patience Just like Jesus was knowledgeable of OT that allowed him to argue, and just like his apostles did once they had knowledge and once Jesus left to His God. It's like fighting for a cause.

I know you are not a Christian lol but this is what we believe Philippians 2:5-11, John 14:6

6"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

No objection:

The way = the example to follow.

The truth opposite of falsehood, and God word is the truth indeed.

The life = eternal life, that we can hope for only through proper belief that Jesus came to teach.

But I can't see if this has anything against what I said ?

I don't need additional translations thanks, and the last sentence in that verse is what you missed, BUT BY ME. ME means Jesus. In order to get to the Father, we go through Jesus, He is our mediator.....The only way to the Father.
When we argue in the name of Jesus, we ARE arguing in the name of God. No objections? Did you read the Philippians verse? PHILIPPIANS 2:9,10 DOES speak against what you said here, they are EQUAL. When we argue in the name of Jesus, we ARE arguing in the name of God, that is what a Christian does.

But by me doesn't mean we got to worship him but to follow him and worship God like him.

We Muslims believe if one doesn't believe in any prophet mentioned in Quran then he disbelieved!

So the above verse doesn't contradict my faith in anyway, au contraire!

How do you understand this "But by me" ?

Like I said, I know you are not a Christian but I'm sure you're aware of what we believe right? So when we speak on behalf of Jesus, we speak for God Himself, did you read the Philippians verse??? That should cover most of it lol.
I'm not disputing your faith, I'm just explaining why Christians atone for Christ. Jesus said I AM...... BY ME.... not by His message or by His beliefs and example but by HIMSELF. It's pretty clear.

I understand what your belief is based on, but it seems to me you guys favorited other people's word over Jesus words !! Do you not agree that Jesus used to speak mainly in parables, so much that his apostles used to not understand him half of the time until he rose, then he spake clearly. so this sentence is clearly a parable form beginning to end, Jesus is not a road as far as I know , so him saying I am the way needs to be interpreted according to his mother tongue language habits, same for By me, which you are trying to understand in English, and it didn't even come in English, you have to remember that you need to know a bit of Hebrew or Arabic in order to understand those linguistic specificities.In Arabic we do say this by me in everyday basis , it doesn't mean what you think!
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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6/5/2013 11:25:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/5/2013 11:15:37 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 6/5/2013 11:01:03 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/5/2013 10:46:40 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 6/5/2013 9:47:49 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/5/2013 9:00:33 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 6/5/2013 8:48:20 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/5/2013 7:57:38 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
If you were to be meant to argue in the name of somebody then it would be in the name of God , the one who sent Jesus , not Jesus himself, as Jesus himself argued for God sake , not for his own sake take example of him.And in order to Argue, you need to arm yourself with knowledge and patience Just like Jesus was knowledgeable of OT that allowed him to argue, and just like his apostles did once they had knowledge and once Jesus left to His God. It's like fighting for a cause.

I know you are not a Christian lol but this is what we believe Philippians 2:5-11, John 14:6

6"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

No objection:

The way = the example to follow.

The truth opposite of falsehood, and God word is the truth indeed.

The life = eternal life, that we can hope for only through proper belief that Jesus came to teach.

But I can't see if this has anything against what I said ?

I don't need additional translations thanks, and the last sentence in that verse is what you missed, BUT BY ME. ME means Jesus. In order to get to the Father, we go through Jesus, He is our mediator.....The only way to the Father.
When we argue in the name of Jesus, we ARE arguing in the name of God. No objections? Did you read the Philippians verse? PHILIPPIANS 2:9,10 DOES speak against what you said here, they are EQUAL. When we argue in the name of Jesus, we ARE arguing in the name of God, that is what a Christian does.

But by me doesn't mean we got to worship him but to follow him and worship God like him.

We Muslims believe if one doesn't believe in any prophet mentioned in Quran then he disbelieved!

So the above verse doesn't contradict my faith in anyway, au contraire!

How do you understand this "But by me" ?

Like I said, I know you are not a Christian but I'm sure you're aware of what we believe right? So when we speak on behalf of Jesus, we speak for God Himself, did you read the Philippians verse??? That should cover most of it lol.
I'm not disputing your faith, I'm just explaining why Christians atone for Christ. Jesus said I AM...... BY ME.... not by His message or by His beliefs and example but by HIMSELF. It's pretty clear.

I understand what your belief is based on, but it seems to me you guys favorited other people's word over Jesus words !! Do you not agree that Jesus used to speak mainly in parables, so much that his apostles used to not understand him half of the time until he rose, then he spake clearly. so this sentence is clearly a parable form beginning to end, Jesus is not a road as far as I know , so him saying I am the way needs to be interpreted according to his mother tongue language habits, same for By me, which you are trying to understand in English, and it didn't even come in English, you have to remember that you need to know a bit of Hebrew or Arabic in order to understand those linguistic specificities.In Arabic we do say this by me in everyday basis , it doesn't mean what you think!

Absolutely Jesus spoke in parables......TO EXPLAIN SPIRITUAL TRUTHS. Those parables are needed to understand spiritual things because people are spiritually dead, they don't understand them so parables are used to get the point across. If Jesus "is not a road" then He is a door lol, not much difference. Read John 10. Jesus says in verse 28 that HE GIVES ETERNAL LIFE, HE is Jesus.
v3nesl
Posts: 4,499
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6/5/2013 11:26:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/5/2013 11:15:37 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 6/5/2013 11:01:03 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/5/2013 10:46:40 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 6/5/2013 9:47:49 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/5/2013 9:00:33 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 6/5/2013 8:48:20 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/5/2013 7:57:38 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
If you were to be meant to argue in the name of somebody then it would be in the name of God , the one who sent Jesus , not Jesus himself, as Jesus himself argued for God sake , not for his own sake take example of him.And in order to Argue, you need to arm yourself with knowledge and patience Just like Jesus was knowledgeable of OT that allowed him to argue, and just like his apostles did once they had knowledge and once Jesus left to His God. It's like fighting for a cause.

I know you are not a Christian lol but this is what we believe Philippians 2:5-11, John 14:6

6"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

No objection:

The way = the example to follow.

The truth opposite of falsehood, and God word is the truth indeed.

The life = eternal life, that we can hope for only through proper belief that Jesus came to teach.

But I can't see if this has anything against what I said ?

I don't need additional translations thanks, and the last sentence in that verse is what you missed, BUT BY ME. ME means Jesus. In order to get to the Father, we go through Jesus, He is our mediator.....The only way to the Father.
When we argue in the name of Jesus, we ARE arguing in the name of God. No objections? Did you read the Philippians verse? PHILIPPIANS 2:9,10 DOES speak against what you said here, they are EQUAL. When we argue in the name of Jesus, we ARE arguing in the name of God, that is what a Christian does.

But by me doesn't mean we got to worship him but to follow him and worship God like him.

We Muslims believe if one doesn't believe in any prophet mentioned in Quran then he disbelieved!

So the above verse doesn't contradict my faith in anyway, au contraire!

How do you understand this "But by me" ?

Like I said, I know you are not a Christian but I'm sure you're aware of what we believe right? So when we speak on behalf of Jesus, we speak for God Himself, did you read the Philippians verse??? That should cover most of it lol.
I'm not disputing your faith, I'm just explaining why Christians atone for Christ. Jesus said I AM...... BY ME.... not by His message or by His beliefs and example but by HIMSELF. It's pretty clear.

I understand what your belief is based on, but it seems to me you guys favorited other people's word over Jesus words !! Do you not agree that Jesus used to speak mainly in parables, so much that his apostles used to not understand him half of the time until he rose, then he spake clearly. so this sentence is clearly a parable form beginning to end, Jesus is not a road as far as I know , so him saying I am the way needs to be interpreted according to his mother tongue language habits, same for By me, which you are trying to understand in English, and it didn't even come in English, you have to remember that you need to know a bit of Hebrew or Arabic in order to understand those linguistic specificities.In Arabic we do say this by me in everyday basis , it doesn't mean what you think!

So, you argue for the straightforward reading when you're arguing Genesis, then resort to the same sort of gymnastics when the scriptures don't say what you want to believe.

Jesus' words are clear enough. Yes, they are metaphor, but plain enough for the willing heart. And btw, in the same setting, Jesus says "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father". Your religion is twisting what Jesus said to suit their cult. Believe Jesus, or don't, but it's intellectually dishonest to twist what he said.
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Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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6/5/2013 11:33:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
"So, you argue for the straightforward reading when you're arguing Genesis, then resort to the same sort of gymnastics when the scriptures don't say what you want to believe."

Not really , I am the way cannot be interpreted literally, the truth and the life and by me, just follow as they are in the same sentence.

He used to speak in parables, he even said it !
v3nesl
Posts: 4,499
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6/5/2013 12:48:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/5/2013 11:33:53 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
"So, you argue for the straightforward reading when you're arguing Genesis, then resort to the same sort of gymnastics when the scriptures don't say what you want to believe."

Not really , I am the way cannot be interpreted literally, the truth and the life and by me, just follow as they are in the same sentence.

He used to speak in parables, he even said it !

It is a metaphor, but I don't think it's a parable. If I say "the only way to success is through hard work" I am using a metaphor, but the meaning is quite plain. Jesus means to explicitly deny the interpretation you prefer - he is saying he does not show the way, he IS the way. Thomas says "show us the way", Jesus answers "I am the way"

Jesus did not leave us the option of considering him to be just a prophet, or a great teacher, or any other sort of mere man. The Jews were right to take his words as blasphemy. Unless, of course, they were true.
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matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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6/5/2013 1:03:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/5/2013 11:33:53 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
"So, you argue for the straightforward reading when you're arguing Genesis, then resort to the same sort of gymnastics when the scriptures don't say what you want to believe."

Not really , I am the way cannot be interpreted literally, the truth and the life and by me, just follow as they are in the same sentence.

He used to speak in parables, he even said it !

A parable does not change the truth behind it, and I agree with the other poster that this is not a parable. The whole passage is this, and there are many others not just this one but if you're going to quote it, quote all of it...
John 14:6 I am the way and the truth and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through ME.
This passage does not end with "the way the truth and life", you have to add the next part. The second part is what confirms the first part..... NO ONE comes to the Father except through Me. If you don't buy the first part then the next part should suffice. So when you combine the two parts together as should be, it becomes almost deniable what it means. While you're at it you should read the entire chapter.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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6/5/2013 1:05:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/5/2013 1:03:03 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/5/2013 11:33:53 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
"So, you argue for the straightforward reading when you're arguing Genesis, then resort to the same sort of gymnastics when the scriptures don't say what you want to believe."

Not really , I am the way cannot be interpreted literally, the truth and the life and by me, just follow as they are in the same sentence.

He used to speak in parables, he even said it !

A parable does not change the truth behind it, and I agree with the other poster that this is not a parable. The whole passage is this, and there are many others not just this one but if you're going to quote it, quote all of it...
John 14:6 I am the way and the truth and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through ME.
This passage does not end with "the way the truth and life", you have to add the next part. The second part is what confirms the first part..... NO ONE comes to the Father except through Me. If you don't buy the first part then the next part should suffice. So when you combine the two parts together as should be, it becomes almost undeniable what it means. While you're at it you should read the entire chapter.

"undeniable" excuse me.
Sower4GS
Posts: 1,718
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6/5/2013 1:25:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 7:46:31 PM, Amish wrote:
Christ?

What does it even mean to be a "Christian"? Should we argue endlessly over whether the LORD God exists in "all possible worlds"? Should we fabricate ridiculously sounding terms like "particularism" or "providentialism"? ...or, are we called to live like Christ, simply and to ourselves?

For me and my comrades, it's the latter...definitely. I spend time reading the Bible, and studying the Old and the New Testaments, not because I wish to argue with people about it, but rather so I can enlighten people and draw them nearer to Jesus Christ our LORD and Savior. If people were convinced by defending our faith in philosophy, then they'd already be Christians and we could already have these conversations with them. Chances are...if you try to argue some sort of "watchmaker analogy" they won't be very impressed.

Before I came to this site...I read a lot of people's debates and posts on the forums. What really struck me was how devoid of life the Christians' posts really are. I'm Amish, that's no secret from my name, but I think and I'm pretty sure at least most Christians agree that we should do things in the name of Jesus Christ, not philosophy.

So I leave you with one final sentence...think about it...God called us in the Bible to spread the Gospel and the good news of our risen Savior...not to come up with boring logical outlines.
Christians do it constantly, But Messiah says no, not at all.
Rav S'Hual (Paul) warns Timothy not to! They are trying to play "Holy Spirit" and convict people, just be obdient and Follow the Torah as YAhshua commands, things will start to clear up quicker than you can imagine! The christians call it the old law, dead law, nailed to the cross, like children pushing away there spinach! I LOVE spinach!!
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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6/5/2013 2:41:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/5/2013 10:46:40 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 6/5/2013 9:47:49 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/5/2013 9:00:33 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
No objection:

The way = the example to follow.

The truth opposite of falsehood, and God word is the truth indeed.

The life = eternal life, that we can hope for only through proper belief that Jesus came to teach.

But I can't see if this has anything against what I said ?

I don't need additional translations thanks, and the last sentence in that verse is what you missed, BUT BY ME. ME means Jesus. In order to get to the Father, we go through Jesus, He is our mediator.....The only way to the Father.
When we argue in the name of Jesus, we ARE arguing in the name of God. No objections? Did you read the Philippians verse? PHILIPPIANS 2:9,10 DOES speak against what you said here, they are EQUAL. When we argue in the name of Jesus, we ARE arguing in the name of God, that is what a Christian does.

But by me doesn't mean we got to worship him but to follow him and worship God like him.

We Muslims believe if one doesn't believe in any prophet mentioned in Quran then he disbelieved!

So the above verse doesn't contradict my faith in anyway, au contraire!

How do you understand this "But by me" ?

The greek word is dia. We translate it as by. It more accurately is used in terms of "by means of." That's why most translate it as "through me." I think the most literal would be "No one comes to the father except by means of me." That's not very smooth English however so most say "through me"
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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6/5/2013 3:20:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 7:46:31 PM, Amish wrote:
Christ?

What does it even mean to be a "Christian"? Should we argue endlessly over whether the LORD God exists in "all possible worlds"? Should we fabricate ridiculously sounding terms like "particularism" or "providentialism"? ...or, are we called to live like Christ, simply and to ourselves?

For me and my comrades, it's the latter...definitely. I spend time reading the Bible, and studying the Old and the New Testaments, not because I wish to argue with people about it, but rather so I can enlighten people and draw them nearer to Jesus Christ our LORD and Savior. If people were convinced by defending our faith in philosophy, then they'd already be Christians and we could already have these conversations with them. Chances are...if you try to argue some sort of "watchmaker analogy" they won't be very impressed.

Before I came to this site...I read a lot of people's debates and posts on the forums. What really struck me was how devoid of life the Christians' posts really are. I'm Amish, that's no secret from my name, but I think and I'm pretty sure at least most Christians agree that we should do things in the name of Jesus Christ, not philosophy.

So I leave you with one final sentence...think about it...God called us in the Bible to spread the Gospel and the good news of our risen Savior...not to come up with boring logical outlines.

Good philosophy must exist, if for no other reason, because bad philosophy needs to be answered.- C.S. Lewis
Amish
Posts: 3
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6/5/2013 3:52:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Everyone here is wrong. When Christ lived on our Earth, he didn't argue with all the Jews. He didn't argue with the Romans. He showed us how to live, not how to argue. There's just no reason for it. If you're Christian, you shouldn't be arguing, you should be living like Christ. This should be obvious to a real Christian.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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6/5/2013 3:56:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/5/2013 1:05:15 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/5/2013 1:03:03 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/5/2013 11:33:53 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
"So, you argue for the straightforward reading when you're arguing Genesis, then resort to the same sort of gymnastics when the scriptures don't say what you want to believe."

Not really , I am the way cannot be interpreted literally, the truth and the life and by me, just follow as they are in the same sentence.

He used to speak in parables, he even said it !

A parable does not change the truth behind it, and I agree with the other poster that this is not a parable. The whole passage is this, and there are many others not just this one but if you're going to quote it, quote all of it...
John 14:6 I am the way and the truth and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through ME.
This passage does not end with "the way the truth and life", you have to add the next part. The second part is what confirms the first part..... NO ONE comes to the Father except through Me. If you don't buy the first part then the next part should suffice. So when you combine the two parts together as should be, it becomes almost undeniable what it means. While you're at it you should read the entire chapter.

"undeniable" excuse me.

Ok Matt, I read all the gospel of John twice or thrice only , but this verse really fits with Jesus as a prophet, as no one comes to God except through the messengers, they are the light the guidance for mankind, I have the impression you don't understand it like me ! not sure maybe you see something I don't see in this text ?!

parable means the text is not direct, for Jesus didn't say I am the example to follow, he instead said I am the way, that's what I mean by parable, it isn't literal. of course for adding the next parts, for the text explains itself, but you seem to see it this way :

"I am God or equal to God" while he is saying "between anyone and God there is Jesus" , everyone needs to go through Jesus, and this mean believe him and follow him and follow the commands that God revealed to him including worship God alone and establish the OT.

Jesus is the way, the destination is God !

Jesus isn't the only way actually , all the prophets are on our way.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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6/5/2013 3:58:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/5/2013 3:52:27 PM, Amish wrote:
Everyone here is wrong. When Christ lived on our Earth, he didn't argue with all the Jews. He didn't argue with the Romans. He showed us how to live, not how to argue. There's just no reason for it. If you're Christian, you shouldn't be arguing, you should be living like Christ. This should be obvious to a real Christian.

Then why are you arguing??
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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6/6/2013 1:30:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/5/2013 3:52:27 PM, Amish wrote:
Everyone here is wrong. When Christ lived on our Earth, he didn't argue with all the Jews. He didn't argue with the Romans. He showed us how to live, not how to argue. There's just no reason for it. If you're Christian, you shouldn't be arguing, you should be living like Christ. This should be obvious to a real Christian.

He certainly didn't argue will ALL the jews, but anyone who has read the bible can see he argued and contested with the pharisees at the most obvious level.