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Torah is Necessary to Observe!

Sower4GS
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6/6/2013 3:33:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The law (torah) is to all Israelites, grafted in gentiles, wild shoot Ephraimites and the branches which are Jews.

As far as your statement here:
Then you ignore the message of Christ and the apostles that we should return to the old law of works or we put Christ to shame.

This is a very misunderstood verse.
One needs to know fundamentals first before you can break into the meat.

The Torah was fulfilled and completed and we need to use and practice it. I could explain the entire Renewed Covenant and how Torah is applicable in it and never help anyone see until I let the Ruach explain it to them by way of the fundamentals.
Harbinger
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6/6/2013 3:36:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Galathians 5:1, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage."
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Sower4GS
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6/6/2013 3:40:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 3:36:02 PM, Harbinger wrote:
Galathians 5:1, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage."
To sin, Torah points to sin. Observe Torah and avoid sin. Is this clicking? I am concerned it is not and that means I have to back off and let the Ruach work on you.
Harbinger
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6/6/2013 3:45:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 3:40:53 PM, Sower4GS wrote:
At 6/6/2013 3:36:02 PM, Harbinger wrote:
Galathians 5:1, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage."
To sin, Torah points to sin. Observe Torah and avoid sin. Is this clicking? I am concerned it is not and that means I have to back off and let the Ruach work on you.

You're not a Christian, you are of Judaism. You deny Christ and His sacrifice for us. You place the yoke of bondage back around the neck. You say follow the Law Christ has fulfilled. We follow the teachings of Christ who fulfilled that Law.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Harbinger
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6/6/2013 3:56:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 3:53:33 PM, Sower4GS wrote:
I never denied Messiah I confirm Torah!

You are confused. You need to be taught instead of teaching.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Harbinger
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6/6/2013 3:58:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 3:53:33 PM, Sower4GS wrote:
I never denied Messiah I confirm Torah!

Yes you do. Show us where the NT tells us to abide by the Old Law.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Sower4GS
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6/6/2013 3:59:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I am proclaiming, if I started to Teach I would have to break open Scripture and start writing Paragraphs and
Paragraphs.
PAragraphs.
No The rest is up to the Ruach.
I am at peace.
Shalom.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/6/2013 4:04:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 3:33:44 PM, Sower4GS wrote:
The law (torah) is to all Israelites, grafted in gentiles, wild shoot Ephraimites and the branches which are Jews.

As far as your statement here:
Then you ignore the message of Christ and the apostles that we should return to the old law of works or we put Christ to shame.

This is a very misunderstood verse.
One needs to know fundamentals first before you can break into the meat.

The Torah was fulfilled and completed and we need to use and practice it. I could explain the entire Renewed Covenant and how Torah is applicable in it and never help anyone see until I let the Ruach explain it to them by way of the fundamentals.

If you want to cling to the Mosaic Law Covenant, and be judged according to it yes, but followers of Christ are no longer under Law

Romans 6:14 For sin must not be master over YOU, seeing that YOU are not under law but under undeserved kindness.

Romans 7:6 But now we have been discharged from the Law, because we have died to that by which we were being held fast, that we might be slaves in a new sense by the spirit, and not in the old sense by the written code.

Galatians 5:18 Furthermore, if YOU are being led by spirit, YOU are not under law.

Colossians 2:13,14 Furthermore, though YOU were dead in YOUR trespasses and in the uncircumcised state of YOUR flesh, [God] made YOU alive together with him. He kindly forgave us all our trespasses 14 and blotted out the handwritten document against us, which consisted of decrees and which was in opposition to us; and He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake.

Galatians 3:10 For all those who depend upon works of law are under a curse; for it is written: "Cursed is every one that does not continue in all the things written in the scroll of the Law in order to do them."

And since it is impossible to "continue in all the things written in the Law" especially since the Temple was destroyed by God's agents for punishing the Jews, The Romans. God has made very sure that all just know that Judaism is dead in his eyes due to their unfaithfulness whcih continues to this day in all sects of Judaism.
MadCornishBiker
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6/6/2013 4:06:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 3:53:33 PM, Sower4GS wrote:
I never denied Messiah I confirm Torah!

To confirm Torah is to deny the Messiah and the power of his sacrifice.
MadCornishBiker
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6/6/2013 4:08:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 3:59:58 PM, Sower4GS wrote:
I am proclaiming, if I started to Teach I would have to break open Scripture and start writing Paragraphs and
Paragraphs.
PAragraphs.
No The rest is up to the Ruach.
I am at peace.
Shalom.

The Ruach will never be granted to you as long as you cling to the Law. You are either under Ruach or under Law you cannot have both.

Your peace is a false peace whihc will soon be destroyed.
Sower4GS
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6/6/2013 4:19:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The law (torah) is to all Israelites, grafted in gentiles, wild shoot Ephraimites and the branches which are Jews.

As far as your statement here:
Then you ignore the message of Christ and the apostles that we should return to the old law of works or we put Christ to shame.

This is a very misunderstood verse.
One needs to know fundamentals first before you can break into the meat.

The Torah was fulfilled and completed and we need to use and practice it. I could explain the entire Renewed Covenant and how Torah is applicable in it and never help anyone see until I let the Ruach explain it to them by way of the fundamentals.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/6/2013 5:16:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 4:19:45 PM, Sower4GS wrote:
The law (torah) is to all Israelites, grafted in gentiles, wild shoot Ephraimites and the branches which are Jews.

As far as your statement here:
Then you ignore the message of Christ and the apostles that we should return to the old law of works or we put Christ to shame.

This is a very misunderstood verse.
One needs to know fundamentals first before you can break into the meat.

The Torah was fulfilled and completed and we need to use and practice it. I could explain the entire Renewed Covenant and how Torah is applicable in it and never help anyone see until I let the Ruach explain it to them by way of the fundamentals.

There is nothing is scripture which says that in fact the exact opposite. If you return to teh Law you impale Christ anew, therefore it is you who cling t the old Lw Code that put the Christ to shame.

These scriptures all show that.

Romans 6:14 For sin must not be master over YOU, seeing that YOU are not under law but under undeserved kindness.

Romans 7:6 But now we have been discharged from the Law, because we have died to that by which we were being held fast, that we might be slaves in a new sense by the spirit, and not in the old sense by the written code.

Galatians 5:18 Furthermore, if YOU are being led by spirit, YOU are not under law.

Colossians 2:13,14 Furthermore, though YOU were dead in YOUR trespasses and in the uncircumcised state of YOUR flesh, [God] made YOU alive together with him. He kindly forgave us all our trespasses 14 and blotted out the handwritten document against us, which consisted of decrees and which was in opposition to us; and He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake.

Galatians 3:10 For all those who depend upon works of law are under a curse; for it is written: "Cursed is every one that does not continue in all the things written in the scroll of the Law in order to do them."

Daniel 9 is very clear on that also. Verses 24-27 say "There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. 25 And you should know and have the insight [that] from the going forth of [the] word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until MessiR42;ah [the] Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times.
26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.
"And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood. And until [the] end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations.
27 "And he must keep [the] covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease.

Verse 27 is especially appointed in this context. The Covenant was kept in force for the many for three and a half years.After that it was closed to Jews as a whole and given to the "New Israel", the Christian Congregation. Any Jews who wished could become part of that, but they had to leave their Jewish heritage behind, including the Law Code, which was now redundant.

Paul and the apostles spent much of their time fighting against such as you who did not want to forsake the Law, because it simply wasn't acceptable to God to drag the old Covenant into the new. The time for that had gone and the Jews had refused the opportunity.

No-one can criticise God for this. He warned Israel so often what would happen if they proved unfaithful, and eventually He had to carry out His threat.

And now the likes of you throw it all back in His face telling Him He is wrong and you are right.

I won't say forget the Law, no-one should do that, but it is a guide now, not a Law Code, and only the principles still are extant.

It is about time you realised that, before it is too late. Don;t be as stubborn as your Israelite predecessors were, learn from their mistakes, follow Christ and God and leave the Law where it belongs, in the background.
Sower4GS
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6/6/2013 5:25:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The law (torah) is to all Israelites, grafted in gentiles, wild shoot Ephraimites and the branches which are Jews.

As far as your statement here:
Then you ignore the message of Christ and the apostles that we should return to the old law of works or we put Christ to shame.

This is a very misunderstood verse.
One needs to know fundamentals first before you can break into the meat.

The Torah was fulfilled and completed and we need to use and practice it. I could explain the entire Renewed Covenant and how Torah is applicable in it and never help anyone see until I let the Ruach explain it to them by way of the fundamentals.
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/7/2013 1:43:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 5:25:10 PM, Sower4GS wrote:
The law (torah) is to all Israelites, grafted in gentiles, wild shoot Ephraimites and the branches which are Jews.

As far as your statement here:
Then you ignore the message of Christ and the apostles that we should return to the old law of works or we put Christ to shame.

This is a very misunderstood verse.
One needs to know fundamentals first before you can break into the meat.

The Torah was fulfilled and completed and we need to use and practice it. I could explain the entire Renewed Covenant and how Torah is applicable in it and never help anyone see until I let the Ruach explain it to them by way of the fundamentals.

When will you ever provide Biblical evidence from the NT that we still need to follow the Torah? You can't. You won't. You are incorrect. You are trying to lead people away from the act of Christ. Don't lie about it. Don't pretend. You appear a lot less truthful that way.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/7/2013 4:10:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 5:25:10 PM, Sower4GS wrote:
The law (torah) is to all Israelites, grafted in gentiles, wild shoot Ephraimites and the branches which are Jews.

As far as your statement here:
Then you ignore the message of Christ and the apostles that we should return to the old law of works or we put Christ to shame.

This is a very misunderstood verse.
One needs to know fundamentals first before you can break into the meat.

The Torah was fulfilled and completed and we need to use and practice it. I could explain the entire Renewed Covenant and how Torah is applicable in it and never help anyone see until I let the Ruach explain it to them by way of the fundamentals.

The Torah was to all Israelites, yes, but it is as redundant as being an Israelite is in God's eyes. The original Israel lost it's favoured position because of it's repeated unfaithfulness, in their arrogance thinking they could tell God what to do, not obey Him.

Why are you so stubborn? Why will you not respond to the leading of YHWH through His son the Messiah?

Ruach does explain it, so why don't you listen to it? Are you just as stiff necked as you predecessors? I know because Ruach is used to work through me, as it is through other followers of the Messiah, of whihc you refuse to be one.

The trouble is that like so many I speak with, you latch onto anything which proves part of what you believe right, or appears to be, and completely ignore anything contrary.

You cannot tell YHWH how you worship. He tells you, through the use of Ruach and scripture, so listen, please, for the sake not only of yourself but of those you mislead

I have shown you the scriptures whihc show how wrong you are, but in your tsiff-necked way you refuse to acknowledge them.

Yes, the "New Israel" the Christian Congregation, was founded on a faithful remnant who came out of Judaism to form this new group of faithful ones, and true Gentiles were then grafted in. However since the foretold closing of the covenant (as foretold in the prophecy from Daniel I quoted above, any, Jew or Gentile, who wanted to become a part of that New Covenant, had to leave thier former religious habits behind and that included strict Torah bservance.

You also refuse to acknowledge the obvious fact that you can no longer observe Torah anyway. It simply isn't possible, because so much in Torah required attendance at the Temple which YHWH had destroyed by the Romans, again as foretold in that Daniel prophecy I quoted in a post above.

Torah is a guide to the principles involved in true worship, yes, but it is no longer valid as a Law Code because the Covenant it was a part of is dead and finished.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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6/7/2013 4:14:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 5:16:18 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/6/2013 4:19:45 PM, Sower4GS wrote:
The law (torah) is to all Israelites, grafted in gentiles, wild shoot Ephraimites and the branches which are Jews.

As far as your statement here:
Then you ignore the message of Christ and the apostles that we should return to the old law of works or we put Christ to shame.

This is a very misunderstood verse.
One needs to know fundamentals first before you can break into the meat.

The Torah was fulfilled and completed and we need to use and practice it. I could explain the entire Renewed Covenant and how Torah is applicable in it and never help anyone see until I let the Ruach explain it to them by way of the fundamentals.

There is nothing is scripture which says that in fact the exact opposite. If you return to teh Law you impale Christ anew, therefore it is you who cling t the old Lw Code that put the Christ to shame.

These scriptures all show that.

Romans 6:14 For sin must not be master over YOU, seeing that YOU are not under law but under undeserved kindness.

Romans 7:6 But now we have been discharged from the Law, because we have died to that by which we were being held fast, that we might be slaves in a new sense by the spirit, and not in the old sense by the written code.

Galatians 5:18 Furthermore, if YOU are being led by spirit, YOU are not under law.

Colossians 2:13,14 Furthermore, though YOU were dead in YOUR trespasses and in the uncircumcised state of YOUR flesh, [God] made YOU alive together with him. He kindly forgave us all our trespasses 14 and blotted out the handwritten document against us, which consisted of decrees and which was in opposition to us; and He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake.

Galatians 3:10 For all those who depend upon works of law are under a curse; for it is written: "Cursed is every one that does not continue in all the things written in the scroll of the Law in order to do them."

Daniel 9 is very clear on that also. Verses 24-27 say "There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. 25 And you should know and have the insight [that] from the going forth of [the] word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until MessiR42;ah [the] Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times.
26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.
"And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood. And until [the] end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations.
27 "And he must keep [the] covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease.

Verse 27 is especially appointed in this context. The Covenant was kept in force for the many for three and a half years.After that it was closed to Jews as a whole and given to the "New Israel", the Christian Congregation. Any Jews who wished could become part of that, but they had to leave their Jewish heritage behind, including the Law Code, which was now redundant.

Paul and the apostles spent much of their time fighting against such as you who did not want to forsake the Law, because it simply wasn't acceptable to God to drag the old Covenant into the new. The time for that had gone and the Jews had refused the opportunity.

No-one can criticise God for this. He warned Israel so often what would happen if they proved unfaithful, and eventually He had to carry out His threat.

And now the likes of you throw it all back in His face telling Him He is wrong and you are right.

I won't say forget the Law, no-one should do that, but it is a guide now, not a Law Code, and only the principles still are extant.

It is about time you realised that, before it is too late. Don;t be as stubborn as your Israelite predecessors were, learn from their mistakes, follow Christ and God and leave the Law where it belongs, in the background.

Sounds pretty clear to me.
Sower4GS
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6/7/2013 11:16:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I am going to take a few minutes and turn on some light switches around here.
When Yahshua refers to commands he is speaking of His Torah!

I will start real easy for ya.

Mar_12:29 And Yahshua answered him, "The first of all the commands is, "Hear, O Yisra'el YHWH is our Elohim YHWH is one."

It is the responsibility of the obedient who observe Torah to guard these commands and so I start again today.

Joh_15:10 "If you guard My commands, you shall stay in My love,1 even as I have guarded My Father"s commands and stay in His love. Footnote: 1See 14:15.
MadCornishBiker
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6/7/2013 11:56:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 11:16:11 AM, Sower4GS wrote:
I am going to take a few minutes and turn on some light switches around here.
When Yahshua refers to commands he is speaking of His Torah!

I will start real easy for ya.

Mar_12:29 And Yahshua answered him, "The first of all the commands is, "Hear, O Yisra'el YHWH is our Elohim YHWH is one."

It is the responsibility of the obedient who observe Torah to guard these commands and so I start again today.

Joh_15:10 "If you guard My commands, you shall stay in My love,1 even as I have guarded My Father"s commands and stay in His love. Footnote: 1See 14:15.

At no point did the Christ ever call Torah his law. He did however call it the Law, and at that point it was exactly that.

He was asked what the finest commandment in the Law was, and he answered as you quote. However Jesus commands were very different from the Law as you will realise if you read the Gospels properly.

For instance as recorded at Matthew 5:27 "YOU heard that it was said, "You must not commit adultery." 28 But I say to YOU that everyone that keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Quite often the Messiah referred to the Law like that, but he always changed it, as he did there, from a command to a principle, meaning that even thinking abut something whihc the Law only called a sin if you actually did it, was wrong.

Notice also that the Messiah says "it was said", making it very much a thing f the past.

In John 15:10 he is again differentiating between his commands and those of his Father. The commands of his Father to which he refers were the commands YHWH gave to him from the creation onwards, not the commands in the Law.

You can twist scripture all you like but it is you that it will hurt most.
Sower4GS
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6/7/2013 11:59:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The law (torah) is to all Israelites, grafted in gentiles, wild shoot Ephraimites and the branches which are Jews.

As far as your statement here:
Then you ignore the message of Christ and the apostles that we should return to the old law of works or we put Christ to shame.

This is a very misunderstood verse.
One needs to know fundamentals first before you can break into the meat.

The Torah was fulfilled and completed and we need to use and practice it. I could explain the entire Renewed Covenant and how Torah is applicable in it and never help anyone see until I let the Ruach explain it to them by way of the fundamentals.
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/7/2013 12:24:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 11:16:11 AM, Sower4GS wrote:
I am going to take a few minutes and turn on some light switches around here.
When Yahshua refers to commands he is speaking of His Torah!

I will start real easy for ya.

Mar_12:29 And Yahshua answered him, "The first of all the commands is, "Hear, O Yisra'el YHWH is our Elohim YHWH is one."

It is the responsibility of the obedient who observe Torah to guard these commands and so I start again today.

Joh_15:10 "If you guard My commands, you shall stay in My love,1 even as I have guarded My Father"s commands and stay in His love. Footnote: 1See 14:15.

Explain how this supports we should still follow the Torah after Jesus Christ died to fulfill it? Your passages are talking about Jesus before He fulfilled the Torah.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Sower4GS
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6/7/2013 12:35:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
ok
Help Me Eliyah do the foot work!
EliYah's message:
For the complete message see:

http://www.eliyah.com...

Even if you are a person who has an appreciation for things that are spoken of in the Torah, it is quite possible that you may have a little bit of rub off, I guess you could say, from mainstream Christianity, some of the things that we were taught in the churches.
I want to try to address this and I think in the end you might be amazed.

There are certain things, certain questions, that I get from time to time that really reflect, at least in my mind, a misunderstanding of Scripture, particularly New Testament Scripture.

For instance, someone would say, "Well, uh, we don't keep the Law because the Messiah fulfilled it," or "We don't do the sacrifices anymore because the Messiah fulfilled that," or "We don't keep a ceremonial law now because the Messiah fulfilled that."

Or they might even ask a question and this is a question I do get asked sometimes, "What part of the Law did the Messiah fulfill so that we know what to keep?" And to me, each one of those statements actually would reflect really a misunderstanding, at least from what I can see in Scripture.

I am going to share this with you today and, hopefully, you will come to the same conclusions I have. So our study topic today is: Did Messiah Fulfill the Law?

Did the Messiah fulfill the Law? And then if He did, how much of it? Which parts? Which parts did He not fulfill, yet? And, so on. So, we want to address that question, and a lot of this comes from, ironically, Matthew chapter 5 and verse 17.

In Matthew chapter 5 and verse 17, you might as well, if you have a Bible with you, just open up to this passage because we are going to go over it. And this is Messiah talking, here. He says:

Matthew 5:17 - "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 - "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Very interesting. Not one jot or one tittle. Now, He did not want us to even think He came to destroy the Law, or some might say "abolish" or "do away with" the Law. He did not come to do that. That was not His role. That is not something He came to do. He said don't even think like that, let alone believe something like that.

So, we have to get that out of our mind first of all, the idea that the Messiah came and took away the Law or He somehow in any way, shape, or form took away one jot or one tittle, as it says here, right?

So if anyone were to say, "Well, the Messiah, you know, He came and because He fulfilled it, He took away these jots and tittles," well, He said two things.

He said they are not going to pass, not even one jot. Not even one tittle. Not even a single little decorative stroke or a yod is going to pass away from that Law until all (and it has "is fulfilled" here).

So, what did He mean here? He said, "Till heaven and earth pass away." Till heaven and earth pass away. I mean, I checked outside this morning and I just had to make sure. I am not trying to make fun of anybody, but I know I had to walk outside. I saw heaven and I saw earth. It hadn't passed away, yet.

So, not even a jot or a tittle has passed. He said, "Till all is fulfilled." So, a very common notion.

We are going to look a little bit at the Greek here. It is going to help us understand the text (what "fulfill" means). What exactly is this? The first instance of this use "fulfill" comes from the Strong's #4137. The Greek word is 'pleroo."

Interestingly, the second time we see this word "fulfill" in the New King James version it is from a different word all together (Strong's #1096). So, why did they translate that that way? Well, it is a little trick. See? At least it seems to me, because... "He didn't come to destroy it, but He came to fulfill it so you wouldn't have to do it."

Okay, He didn't outright destroy it. He fulfilled it, so "it doesn't really mean anything now." That is kind of the thinking that probably whoever translated this verse had in mind.

Now, let's take a look at this #1096. It is from the Greek word "ginomai" (ghin'-om-ahee). The accent is on the "ghin."

Meaning: 1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being 2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen 2a) of events 3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage 3a) of men appearing in public 4) to be made, finished 4a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought 5) to become, be made.

This is the Thayer's Greek Lexicon. And we see (this is usually a good way to understand the flavor of a word) how it is translated. We see that it is translated in the King James Version with the two-letter word "be" in the English 255 times. Then, "come to pass" 82 times.

Usage: AV - be 255, come to pass 82, be made 69, be done 63, come 52, become 47, God forbid + 3361 15, arise 13, have 5, be fulfilled 3, be married to 3, be preferred 3, not tr 14, misc. 4, vr done 2; 678.

When you see this little "+" right here (God forbid + 3361), what they are telling you is there is another Greek word that translated it that was in conjunction with this word to create "Elohim forbid".

And when you look at the context of each of these ("arise" or "have" or "be fulfilled"), it all really points back to the base meaning, which is, as we see here, "to become" or "to come into existence," or "come to pass" is a pretty good translation. So, kind of interesting.

So, if you were to go back to the text itself and translate it accordingly, this latter verse (Matthew 5:18 - "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."), you might want to put in there "come to pass."

Or another translation has "till all is accomplished." Till everything basically comes to pass. Till everything is fulfilled, everything is done, everything is over with. Till everything is finally accomplished, not one jot or one tittle will pass from the Law.

And He sort of makes as a companion way of understanding here, "until heaven and earth pass away." Okay, so, heaven and earth have to pass away. Everything has to come to pass. What is He talking about? What has to come to pass? Well, a lot of things have yet to be done by the Messiah.

A lot of people will point to this verse and say, "Well, when He said, 'It is finished,' then He fulfilled the whole law. He fulfilled all the prophecies. He fulfilled everything." Not so. He has more to do. He was finished with His work on the earth. Now His work comes from the heavenly places. He is not done, yet. There is still yet more to come.

When He puts an end to all sin, when He destroys the last enemy (which is the devil), when He does all these things-- we are going to get into this in more detail-- why would we need a law?

When we face Him in judgment and He decides what happens to us, and so on, and we are glorified and we are with Him, are we going to need a law to point to us and say, "You're sinning"? Or are we going to need a law that says to us, "This is the right way to walk; walk in it"?

Are we going to need that or are we going to put up an incorruptible nature? We are going to put up an incorruptible nature according to Scripture (that I am going to get into, here), and we won't need the law anymore. It will be in us in such a way that we will just to it. It says the Law is good:
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/7/2013 12:54:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Sower, the only thing you addressed is what is claimed already. I have not said the Law is gone, useless, or finished. I said Jesus fulfilled the penalty for it, when He said it is finished, He meant the penalty for it is finished. So, those who believe in Him and accept Him receives that payment in full. We do not have to live by the Torah because He has placed that law and its penalty on Himself. Therefore, we follow the Messiahs message and Word after He has fulfilled the punishment for it. You brought up heaven and earth, well I agree, heaven and earth are still here and the Law is still active but on Jesus Christ. You have yet to explain why Jesus would come to sacrifice Himself for our inability to follow the Law, then wants us to follow the Law that He has took on Himself. That is why He said we put His sacrifice and purpose to shame if we go back to that. If we go back to a Law we cannot fulfill(His reason for coming and dying) then Jesus Christ's sacrifice is useless. The Law requires works, deeds, actions, to gain and keep salvation. You then shame the sacrifice Jesus has done because you cannot fulfill the Law, only He could. This is why He said He would send the Holy Ghost as well as the scriptures to guide us in His footsteps, but we cannot live up the walk He made. Therefore, by accepting Him, we accept that Jesus fulfilled the penalty that we had to pay by sacrificing Himself and if we go back to a Law trying to fulfill it after He has we put Him to shame. Now, address that and show how and why we should follow that Law again. Because you haven't. You will wiggle out of it by posting long post of nothing that we dont know or accept. You distort the meaning of scripture and the sacrifice Jesus made.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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6/7/2013 12:57:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm a secularist.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
Sower4GS
Posts: 1,718
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6/7/2013 1:02:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 12:54:53 PM, Harbinger wrote:
Sower, the only thing you addressed is what is claimed already. I have not said the Law is gone, useless, or finished. I said Jesus fulfilled the penalty for it, when He said it is finished, He meant the penalty for it is finished. So, those who believe in Him and accept Him receives that payment in full. We do not have to live by the Torah because He has placed that law and its penalty on Himself. Therefore, we follow the Messiahs message and Word after He has fulfilled the punishment for it. You brought up heaven and earth, well I agree, heaven and earth are still here and the Law is still active but on Jesus Christ. You have yet to explain why Jesus would come to sacrifice Himself for our inability to follow the Law, then wants us to follow the Law that He has took on Himself. That is why He said we put His sacrifice and purpose to shame if we go back to that. If we go back to a Law we cannot fulfill(His reason for coming and dying) then Jesus Christ's sacrifice is useless. The Law requires works, deeds, actions, to gain and keep salvation. You then shame the sacrifice Jesus has done because you cannot fulfill the Law, only He could. This is why He said He would send the Holy Ghost as well as the scriptures to guide us in His footsteps, but we cannot live up the walk He made. Therefore, by accepting Him, we accept that Jesus fulfilled the penalty that we had to pay by sacrificing Himself and if we go back to a Law trying to fulfill it after He has we put Him to shame. Now, address that and show how and why we should follow that Law again. Because you haven't. You will wiggle out of it by posting long post of nothing that we dont know or accept. You distort the meaning of scripture and the sacrifice Jesus made.

It is so fundamental it is beyond you right now, well there is still time for u.
Look, ask anyone, you fulfill something u use it. done and finished, not worm food, now shooosh.
Sower4GS
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6/7/2013 1:03:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 12:57:53 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
I'm a secularist.
Your not saved yet rabbit? WOW, that prayer needs more time, scuse me.....
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/7/2013 1:07:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 1:02:37 PM, Sower4GS wrote:
At 6/7/2013 12:54:53 PM, Harbinger wrote:
Sower, the only thing you addressed is what is claimed already. I have not said the Law is gone, useless, or finished. I said Jesus fulfilled the penalty for it, when He said it is finished, He meant the penalty for it is finished. So, those who believe in Him and accept Him receives that payment in full. We do not have to live by the Torah because He has placed that law and its penalty on Himself. Therefore, we follow the Messiahs message and Word after He has fulfilled the punishment for it. You brought up heaven and earth, well I agree, heaven and earth are still here and the Law is still active but on Jesus Christ. You have yet to explain why Jesus would come to sacrifice Himself for our inability to follow the Law, then wants us to follow the Law that He has took on Himself. That is why He said we put His sacrifice and purpose to shame if we go back to that. If we go back to a Law we cannot fulfill(His reason for coming and dying) then Jesus Christ's sacrifice is useless. The Law requires works, deeds, actions, to gain and keep salvation. You then shame the sacrifice Jesus has done because you cannot fulfill the Law, only He could. This is why He said He would send the Holy Ghost as well as the scriptures to guide us in His footsteps, but we cannot live up the walk He made. Therefore, by accepting Him, we accept that Jesus fulfilled the penalty that we had to pay by sacrificing Himself and if we go back to a Law trying to fulfill it after He has we put Him to shame. Now, address that and show how and why we should follow that Law again. Because you haven't. You will wiggle out of it by posting long post of nothing that we dont know or accept. You distort the meaning of scripture and the sacrifice Jesus made.

It is so fundamental it is beyond you right now, well there is still time for u.
Look, ask anyone, you fulfill something u use it. done and finished, not worm food, now shooosh.

You need to ask and stop acting like your a teacher. You should be taught because you know little about the book you talk about and know even less about its meaning. You need to swoosh with your teachings and go back to praying for insight through the Holy Ghost. You are correct and I have not opposed once that the law is still active and used. I oppose having to follow it because Jesus said we did not. Jesus said He fulfilled it, He made it possible for us to receive forgiveness. Not because we must follow a Law that we can't. Explain: Why Jesus came and died for us if we must still follow Law that we cannot follow?
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/7/2013 1:34:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 1:03:35 PM, Sower4GS wrote:
At 6/7/2013 12:57:53 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
I'm a secularist.
Your not saved yet rabbit? WOW, that prayer needs more time, scuse me.....

Discussing things with you is good for me, because it helps me understand how the Christ must have felt trying to get through to the Pharisees, whom you imitate so well.

No-one is completely saved unless the endure to the end, and it isn't quite the end yet.
Sower4GS
Posts: 1,718
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6/7/2013 2:10:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
http://www.eliyah.com...
The Law: For Jews only?
In this study, I would like to deal with a very common misconception. Some are under the guise that I have "rejected Christian holidays in favor of Jewish ones". For various reasons, it is commonly believed that certain things in the word of Yahweh are "Jewish". For instance, some say that we keep the "Jewish" holidays, while others keep the "Christian" holidays. I am reminded of a poem I first heard some years ago. The poem is called "It's Jewish"

When we present Almighty Yahweh's law, And arguments from the Scriptures draw, Objectors say, to pick a flaw, "IT'S JEWISH."

Though at first Almighty Yahweh blessed, And sanctified His day of rest, The same belief is still expressed, "IT'S JEWISH."

Though with the world this rest began, and then through all the Scriptures ran, And Yahushua said, 'Twas made for man" -- "IT'S JEWISH."

If from the bible we present, The Sabbath's meaning and intent, This answers every argument-- "IT'S JEWISH."

Though the disciples, Luke and Saul, Continue still this rest to call, The 'Sabbath Day', this answers all, "IT'S JEWISH."

The evangels taught a plain expression, That "Sin is of the law transgression", Seems not to make the least impression-- "IT'S JEWISH."

They love the rest of man's invention, But if Almighty Yahweh's Day we mention, That puts an end to all contention, "IT'S JEWISH."

Well, those who Yahweh's Day abuse, Simply because 'Twas made for Jews', The Savior, too, you must refuse, for "HE'S JEWISH!"

Indeed, Yahushua the Messiah is the Lion of the tribe of Judah. The term "Jewish" primarily refers to Judah, one of the 12 tribes of Israel, though it can also refer to other tribes who mixed in with Judah. As we read in the poem, many claim that we need not follow the Sabbath or the Torah/law because it is (in their mind) Jewish. But is this true? Is the law really Jewish? I believe that there are 2 answers to that question depending on what you mean by it. If someone is asking me if the law is 'Jewish', in one sense I would say yes. To be "Jew-ish" in one sense is to be Jew-like. If one were to say that the law is Jewish in that perspective, I would agree for Jews have at least believed in keeping the law/Torah for thousands of years although tradition and the Talmud has placed unnecessary things on top of the law. It is also true that the Jews were given the oracles of Yahweh. But I think we need to get beyond that, and really look at what the scriptures have to say about His Torah/law.

Let's first examine what is meant by "righteousness". Noah and his family were saved because they were righteous.

Genesis 7:1 - And YAHWEH said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Noah was a righteous man before there were ever a man of Judah. Abraham too:
Genesis 15:5 - And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 - And he believed in YAHWEH; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Contrary to popular opinion, Abraham's belief wasn't an empty belief. It was backed up by action and works..
Genesis 18:19 - For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of YAHWEH, to do justice and judgment; that YAHWEH may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Genesis 26:4 - And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;Genesis 26:5 - Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Yes, there were commandments, statutes and laws even in those days.. long before there was ever a Jewish man. Yahweh is righteous!
Psalms 40:10 - I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.

Even Pharaoh acknowledged that Yahweh is righteous:
Exodus 9:27 - And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: YAHWEH is righteous, and I and my people are wicked.

As did Yahushua:
John 17:25 - O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

The scriptures say that keeping the Torah/LAW is righteousness:
Deuteronomy 6:25 - And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before YAHWEH our Elohim, as he hath commanded us.

Notice it says "All these" not just a part here or there. His word is His law...His word is righteous.
Psalms 119:123 - Mine eyes fail for thy salvation, and for the word of thy righteousness.

Psalms 119:172 - My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.
Psalms 119:160 - Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
Every one? forever? YES. And Yahushua agreed. When praying, He said to the Father:
John 17:17 - Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

His commandments are part of His word, and His word sanctifies us.
Luke 1:5 - There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 - And they were both righteous before YAHWEH, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of YAHWEH blameless.

Even in Yahushua's day the parents of John the Baptist were considered righteous because they were walking in the commandments and ordinances of Yahweh blameless. Now it can be certain that the scriptures teach that the opposite of "righteousness" is "unrighteousness" or "sin":
Romans 6:15 - What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under favor? By no means!! 16 - Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Here we see that Sin and righteousness are opposites. Sin leads to death and obedience leads to righteousness. Here is another verse showing that sin is simply "unrighteousness":
1John 5:17 - All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

This brings us to the question: "What exactly is sin?". Well, if obedience to the law is righteousness---then would not transgression of the law (breaking the commandments in the law) be sin/unrighteousness? YES. Scripture says so:
1John 3:4 - Whoever commits sin trangresses also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 - And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 - Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 - Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 - He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of YAHWEH was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 - Whoever has been born of YAHWEH does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of YAHWEH. 10 - In this the children of YAHWEH and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of YAHWEH, nor is he who does not love his brother.