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No Prayer in School...OOPS!!!

1Devilsadvocate
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6/6/2013 7:57:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 7:42:23 PM, medic0506 wrote:


This kid is awesome.

He continued speaking while the audience was applauding. That's a public speaking no no.
Speaking of which, I better prepare for my Public speaking final. (Which is basically to give a Eulogy about some random dude that no one knows, well really a couple and their unborn. They don't even have a Wikipedia page :P)
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medic0506
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6/6/2013 8:10:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 7:57:08 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 6/6/2013 7:42:23 PM, medic0506 wrote:


This kid is awesome.

He continued speaking while the audience was applauding. That's a public speaking no no.

lol...I don't think that's as big a no-no as stopping in the middle of a prayer.

Speaking of which, I better prepare for my Public speaking final. (Which is basically to give a Eulogy about some random dude that no one knows, well really a couple and their unborn. They don't even have a Wikipedia page :P)
Skepsikyma
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6/6/2013 8:12:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I disagree with the decision to try and stopping him personally from praying, but agree with the one to stop school officials from leading a prayer. This case is a perfect example of the over-application of the separation of church and state. It's meant to control the actions of government officials, not students.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
medic0506
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6/6/2013 8:27:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 8:12:53 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I disagree with the decision to try and stopping him personally from praying, but agree with the one to stop school officials from leading a prayer. This case is a perfect example of the over-application of the separation of church and state. It's meant to control the actions of government officials, not students.

Good call, I agree with most of what you said here. The only thing that I disagree with is that I don't really see any harm in people praying. School officials have religious beliefs too, and anyone who isn't religious, or doesn't want to pray doesn't have to. Why can't both sides express their beliefs at the same time?? I just can't fathom how atheists are so offended at someone else praying, it's not like we're throwing Holy Water on them or something.
Skepsikyma
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6/6/2013 8:33:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 8:27:45 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/6/2013 8:12:53 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I disagree with the decision to try and stopping him personally from praying, but agree with the one to stop school officials from leading a prayer. This case is a perfect example of the over-application of the separation of church and state. It's meant to control the actions of government officials, not students.

Good call, I agree with most of what you said here. The only thing that I disagree with is that I don't really see any harm in people praying. School officials have religious beliefs too, and anyone who isn't religious, or doesn't want to pray doesn't have to. Why can't both sides express their beliefs at the same time?? I just can't fathom how atheists are so offended at someone else praying, it's not like we're throwing Holy Water on them or something.

They can pray. But not on my taxpayer dollars. I'm paying them to teach, not proselytize.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
medic0506
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6/6/2013 9:12:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 8:33:59 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/6/2013 8:27:45 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/6/2013 8:12:53 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I disagree with the decision to try and stopping him personally from praying, but agree with the one to stop school officials from leading a prayer. This case is a perfect example of the over-application of the separation of church and state. It's meant to control the actions of government officials, not students.

Good call, I agree with most of what you said here. The only thing that I disagree with is that I don't really see any harm in people praying. School officials have religious beliefs too, and anyone who isn't religious, or doesn't want to pray doesn't have to. Why can't both sides express their beliefs at the same time?? I just can't fathom how atheists are so offended at someone else praying, it's not like we're throwing Holy Water on them or something.

They can pray. But not on my taxpayer dollars. I'm paying them to teach, not proselytize.

That's ok, they can use mine. Praying is not proselytizing.
bladerunner060
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6/6/2013 9:39:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
School officials should not be leading prayer because of the fact that, while you claim it's just them expressing their religious beliefs and not proselytizing, that's belied by what actually happens. When students who politely request that they not be subjected to the religion of others get death threats, it's disingenuous to pretend that officials leading prayer are benign.
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bladerunner060
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6/6/2013 9:46:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
medic, I also don't think you'd be extolling the virtues of this kid if he'd brought out a carpet and started allahu-ackbaring up the joint. Or if an atheist had taken the time to extol his avoidance of religion as the reason why he did so well in school.
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Skepsikyma
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6/6/2013 10:00:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 9:12:00 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/6/2013 8:33:59 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/6/2013 8:27:45 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/6/2013 8:12:53 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I disagree with the decision to try and stopping him personally from praying, but agree with the one to stop school officials from leading a prayer. This case is a perfect example of the over-application of the separation of church and state. It's meant to control the actions of government officials, not students.

Good call, I agree with most of what you said here. The only thing that I disagree with is that I don't really see any harm in people praying. School officials have religious beliefs too, and anyone who isn't religious, or doesn't want to pray doesn't have to. Why can't both sides express their beliefs at the same time?? I just can't fathom how atheists are so offended at someone else praying, it's not like we're throwing Holy Water on them or something.

They can pray. But not on my taxpayer dollars. I'm paying them to teach, not proselytize.

That's ok, they can use mine. Praying is not proselytizing.

When a prayer is lead in front of other people's children, it can be. Notice that I said leading a prayer. There's nothing wrong with a teacher praying in private. But once it becomes a government endorsement of religion we have a problem. Some of the separation of church and state cases were pushed by Jehovah's Witnesses who believed that their parental religious rights were being violated because their children were being taught religious ideas which conflicted with the parents's beliefs. Properly understood, the separation of church and state holds that a child's religious upbringing is solely the business of the parents, and that the government should never be involved in this.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
medic0506
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6/6/2013 10:09:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 9:46:49 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
medic, I also don't think you'd be extolling the virtues of this kid if he'd brought out a carpet and started allahu-ackbaring up the joint. Or if an atheist had taken the time to extol his avoidance of religion as the reason why he did so well in school.

You're right, I wouldn't be.
bladerunner060
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6/6/2013 10:10:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 10:09:05 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/6/2013 9:46:49 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
medic, I also don't think you'd be extolling the virtues of this kid if he'd brought out a carpet and started allahu-ackbaring up the joint. Or if an atheist had taken the time to extol his avoidance of religion as the reason why he did so well in school.

You're right, I wouldn't be.

And the hypocrisy of that doesn't bother you?
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Sidewalker
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6/6/2013 10:28:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 8:26:46 PM, StevenDixon wrote:
I think the kid is stupid.

He was giving the Valedictorian speech, it's stupid to think the kid is stupid.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
proglib
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6/6/2013 10:35:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 8:12:53 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I disagree with the decision to try and stopping him personally from praying, but agree with the one to stop school officials from leading a prayer. This case is a perfect example of the over-application of the separation of church and state. It's meant to control the actions of government officials, not students.

As a libertarian agnostic, I say "amen, brother!"
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.* And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." Barry Goldwater
*Except in a democracy it might lose you an election.

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proglib
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6/6/2013 10:39:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 10:09:05 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/6/2013 9:46:49 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
medic, I also don't think you'd be extolling the virtues of this kid if he'd brought out a carpet and started allahu-ackbaring up the joint. Or if an atheist had taken the time to extol his avoidance of religion as the reason why he did so well in school.

You're right, I wouldn't be.

Oops, you made our point. :)

Freedom of religion doesn't mean just the religions you (or I) approve of.

Remember our history, for Pete's (or heaven's:) sake! The Pilgrims had to leave England NOT because it was an atheist country, but because it was a theocratic country.
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.* And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." Barry Goldwater
*Except in a democracy it might lose you an election.

http://unitedwegovern.org...
bladerunner060
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6/6/2013 10:39:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I would have more patience with this kid if he's just thanked God, instead of forcing all the other attendees to listen to his prayer.
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proglib
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6/6/2013 10:46:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 10:28:51 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 6/6/2013 8:26:46 PM, StevenDixon wrote:
I think the kid is stupid.

He was giving the Valedictorian speech, it's stupid to think the kid is stupid.

I may be getting carried away here, but, you are very right in a literal sense. :D

When I was his age I refused to be forced to say the pledge of allegiance. I would say it, but not under duress. So I COMPLETELY respect and admire him for asserting his freedom of speech to say the Lord's Prayer.

That holds true today, though, as an adult I can't say when there's any duress to say the pledge.

To this day I leave out "under God" 99% of the time. I don't believe in God [most days:)] and even if I did, I don't believe that phrase belongs in our democratic, non-theocratic pledge.

I love my country, its freedoms, and its traditions of freedom. AND, I understand them well enough to know what freedom of speech and freedom of religion mean. [As do several other folks on this thread, obviously.]
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.* And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." Barry Goldwater
*Except in a democracy it might lose you an election.

http://unitedwegovern.org...
Rusty
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6/6/2013 10:54:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 10:53:13 PM, Rusty wrote:
He ripped it!? Oh goodness.

Anyhow, judging from his accent... yeah, he's from South Carolina. So brave. <_<

To clarify, more power to him. I'm just saying it's not like it's super edgy as many people are making it out to be.
IslamAhmadiyya
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6/6/2013 11:28:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If he wants to make a prayer, let him, nobody should stop him from doing so.

Since I am Muslim, every Friday, we got special Friday prayers, and I have to take 20 minutes off my 8th period class to perform them.

I would decline any law that was created that will prevent people from performing prayers in school or college or whatever else.

Society will change, religion won't, people will adapt.
bladerunner060
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6/6/2013 11:40:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 11:28:34 PM, IslamAhmadiyya wrote:
If he wants to make a prayer, let him, nobody should stop him from doing so.

Since I am Muslim, every Friday, we got special Friday prayers, and I have to take 20 minutes off my 8th period class to perform them.

There's a vast difference between leaving your class in order to perform your prayers, and subjecting all your classmates to them.


I would decline any law that was created that will prevent people from performing prayers in school or college or whatever else.

Society will change, religion won't, people will adapt.
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IslamAhmadiyya
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6/7/2013 12:00:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 11:40:58 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/6/2013 11:28:34 PM, IslamAhmadiyya wrote:
If he wants to make a prayer, let him, nobody should stop him from doing so.

Since I am Muslim, every Friday, we got special Friday prayers, and I have to take 20 minutes off my 8th period class to perform them.

There's a vast difference between leaving your class in order to perform your prayers, and subjecting all your classmates to them.


I would decline any law that was created that will prevent people from performing prayers in school or college or whatever else.

Society will change, religion won't, people will adapt.

Anyone can say whatever they want during their graduation speech. He decided to make a prayer. Pretty simple.
Wallstreetatheist
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6/7/2013 12:10:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm sure you'd be just as ecstatic if it were a Muslim kid reciting a prayer in arabic at his American HS graduation.
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bladerunner060
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6/7/2013 12:27:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 12:00:32 AM, IslamAhmadiyya wrote:
At 6/6/2013 11:40:58 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/6/2013 11:28:34 PM, IslamAhmadiyya wrote:
If he wants to make a prayer, let him, nobody should stop him from doing so.

Since I am Muslim, every Friday, we got special Friday prayers, and I have to take 20 minutes off my 8th period class to perform them.

There's a vast difference between leaving your class in order to perform your prayers, and subjecting all your classmates to them.


I would decline any law that was created that will prevent people from performing prayers in school or college or whatever else.

Society will change, religion won't, people will adapt.

Anyone can say whatever they want during their graduation speech. He decided to make a prayer. Pretty simple.

Actually, that's not true whatsoever. One cannot, for example, go on a racist rant about how the Jews are ruining the country. It would be shut down immediately. And there is a purpose to the Valedictorian address:

http://en.wikipedia.org...
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medic0506
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6/7/2013 1:31:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 10:10:41 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/6/2013 10:09:05 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/6/2013 9:46:49 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
medic, I also don't think you'd be extolling the virtues of this kid if he'd brought out a carpet and started allahu-ackbaring up the joint. Or if an atheist had taken the time to extol his avoidance of religion as the reason why he did so well in school.

You're right, I wouldn't be.

And the hypocrisy of that doesn't bother you?

Why would a Christian be impressed by a kid turning to allah, or denying that God exists?? There is no hypocrisy there.
medic0506
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6/7/2013 1:36:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/6/2013 10:39:55 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
I would have more patience with this kid if he's just thanked God, instead of forcing all the other attendees to listen to his prayer.

Sounded to me like they appreciated his courage, not like they were being forced to sit through something offensive.
bladerunner060
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6/7/2013 1:38:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 1:36:11 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/6/2013 10:39:55 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
I would have more patience with this kid if he's just thanked God, instead of forcing all the other attendees to listen to his prayer.

Sounded to me like they appreciated his courage, not like they were being forced to sit through something offensive.

What, exactly, was courageous about it, if the majority of people liked it?

There was nothing courageous or admirable about what this kid did. That doesn't make it the most awful thing ever, but don't pretend it's something it isn't. He hijacked the graduation so that he could subject everyone to a prayer, and the only reason it wasn't a problem is because he happens to be of a majority religion.
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