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Harbinger
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6/7/2013 4:58:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I am interested what this is about. Can someone explain?
http://ivarfjeld.com...
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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6/7/2013 6:10:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
If you're a Christian, then that is just an innovation, God didn't ask people to do this or glorify themselves that way! everybody should be buried according to the commandments in OT for.
Harbinger
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6/7/2013 6:19:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 6:10:45 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
If you're a Christian, then that is just an innovation, God didn't ask people to do this or glorify themselves that way! everybody should be buried according to the commandments in OT for.

I agree. I was wanting a Roman Catholic to explain.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Fruitytree
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6/7/2013 6:25:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 6:19:15 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/7/2013 6:10:45 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
If you're a Christian, then that is just an innovation, God didn't ask people to do this or glorify themselves that way! everybody should be buried according to the commandments in OT for.

I agree. I was wanting a Roman Catholic to explain.

Ok. While you await one of them, take this: innovations are one sure way to destroy the true religion of God, for people see them as good, when they are the worse evil.
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/7/2013 6:55:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 6:49:47 AM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
Not sure what you want explained.

Why do the Vatican have a dead popes corpse on display and pray to it? Note now this pope was dead and buired for over 30 years they dug him up in 2000 and placed him in that case, made a wax dummy of him for viewing and his body is under it. They took his blood and make people kiss the jar it is in. Why?
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
ExsurgeDomine
Posts: 176
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6/7/2013 7:04:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 6:55:43 AM, Harbinger wrote:
Why do the Vatican have a dead popes corpse on display and pray to it?

Presuming that this is talking about the article, this isn't a pope in any typical usage of the word. He's St. George Preca.

Christians have always asked the intersession of the saints.

'Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition.' - St. Cyril of Jerusalem

Note now this pope was dead and buired for over 30 years they dug him up in 2000 and placed him in that case, made a wax dummy of him for viewing and his body is under it. They took his blood and make people kiss the jar it is in. Why?

To show respect to him because he was a great man.
Harbinger
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6/7/2013 7:11:06 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 7:04:12 AM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 6/7/2013 6:55:43 AM, Harbinger wrote:
Why do the Vatican have a dead popes corpse on display and pray to it?

Presuming that this is talking about the article, this isn't a pope in any typical usage of the word. He's St. George Preca.

You are right, my mistake.

Christians have always asked the intersession of the saints.

Where can you find that Biblically?

'Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition.' - St. Cyril of Jerusalem

I do not care about what some guy says, I want scripture. Matter fact the Bible teaches that all the elect are preist and saints, not what some council determines.

Note now this pope was dead and buired for over 30 years they dug him up in 2000 and placed him in that case, made a wax dummy of him for viewing and his body is under it. They took his blood and make people kiss the jar it is in. Why?

To show respect to him because he was a great man.

Say's you. I find it funny that you say that then have him took from the grave and have his dead corpse on display, Mitey respectful there.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
ExsurgeDomine
Posts: 176
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6/7/2013 7:21:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 7:11:06 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/7/2013 7:04:12 AM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
Christians have always asked the intersession of the saints.

Where can you find that Biblically?

'Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.' - James 5

'Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition.' - St. Cyril of Jerusalem

I do not care about what some guy says, I want scripture. Matter fact the Bible teaches that all the elect are preist and saints, not what some council determines.

One of the few times Luther was right in his life was when he said 'Every man is born with a Pope in his belly.'.

To show respect to him because he was a great man.

Say's you.

Well hey, if you don't want me to answer then I won't. I can only answer as far as I know, and I don't every single thing about every single event that ever happened.

I find it funny that you say that then have him took from the grave and have his dead corpse on display,

You've got a really strange sense of humour, then.

Mitey respectful there.

Indeed it is.
Harbinger
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6/7/2013 7:34:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 7:21:50 AM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 6/7/2013 7:11:06 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/7/2013 7:04:12 AM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
Christians have always asked the intersession of the saints.

Where can you find that Biblically?

'Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.' - James 5

Where does it say pray to dead people. Your verse is telling indeed. It says pray to one another, so saints pray for us and we pray for them, but then it says we will be healed by prayer, do dead saints need healing?

'Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition.' - St. Cyril of Jerusalem

I do not care about what some guy says, I want scripture. Matter fact the Bible teaches that all the elect are preist and saints, not what some council determines.

One of the few times Luther was right in his life was when he said 'Every man is born with a Pope in his belly.'.

To show respect to him because he was a great man.

Say's you.

Well hey, if you don't want me to answer then I won't. I can only answer as far as I know, and I don't every single thing about every single event that ever happened.

That is fair.

I find it funny that you say that then have him took from the grave and have his dead corpse on display,

You've got a really strange sense of humour, then.

You have mitey strange sense of respect for a saints dead body. Should he not be left in peace?

Mitey respectful there.

Indeed it is.

Really? Do you ignore the passages that says touching a dead corpse is unclean? Praying to the dead is strictly forbidden in the Bible. Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that anyone who "consults with the dead" is "detestable to the Lord." The story of Saul consulting a medium to bring up the spirit of the dead Samuel resulted in his death "because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance" (1 Samuel 28:1-25; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14). Clearly, God has declared that such things are not to be done. Not to mention that Jesus said He is the only intercessor for man.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
ExsurgeDomine
Posts: 176
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6/7/2013 7:49:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 7:34:48 AM, Harbinger wrote:
Where does it say pray to dead people.

When we ask the intercession of the saints, we are asking the intercession of the righteous, which is the most powerful kind of prayer.

Your verse is telling indeed. It says pray to one another, so saints pray for us and we pray for them, but then it says we will be healed by prayer, do dead saints need healing?

There's no point in us praying for the saints, because we can't really help them at all, but there's good reason for the saints to pray for us because, as I posted, 'The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.'.

You have mitey strange sense of respect for a saints dead body. Should he not be left in peace?

I think it's pretty respectful.

'Accordingly, we afterwards took up his bones, as being more precious than the most exquisite jewels, and more purified than gold, and deposited them in a fitting place, whither, being gathered together, as opportunity is allowed us, with joy and rejoicing, the Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom, both in memory of those who have already finished their course, and for the exercising and preparation of those yet to walk in their steps.' - Martyrdom of Polycarp

Really? Do you ignore the passages that says touching a dead corpse is unclean?

So then you just leave corpses lying all over the place?

I'm not exactly an expert on the Bible or anything, but I'm pretty sure touching dead corpses were only absolutely forbidden for the Levites, and it only made other people ritually unclean.

Praying to the dead is strictly forbidden in the Bible. Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that anyone who "consults with the dead" is "detestable to the Lord."

It's kind of one-way, so I wouldn't really call it 'consulting'.

The story of Saul consulting a medium to bring up the spirit of the dead Samuel resulted in his death "because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance" (1 Samuel 28:1-25; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14).

No one's consulting mediums or bringing up the spirits of dead saints to seek some occult knowledge from them or anything.

Clearly, God has declared that such things are not to be done. Not to mention that Jesus said He is the only intercessor for man.

Verse, please?
Harbinger
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6/7/2013 7:54:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 7:49:32 AM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:

Verse, please?

Since this verse dispands everything you have posted, here you go:

1 Timothy 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

And just in case you say that the Pope is Christ in earth:

Matthew 24:5
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mark 13:6
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Luke 4:41
And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.
Luke 21:8
And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
ExsurgeDomine
Posts: 176
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6/7/2013 8:05:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 7:54:43 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/7/2013 7:49:32 AM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
Verse, please?

Since this verse dispands everything you have posted, here you go:

Well not really, because if it did then it would also make the Bible self-contradicting, but okay.

1 Timothy 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 Timothy 2

'First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time.'

If this would be interpreted the way you seem to want to, it would result in a contradiction a mere four lines before, when Paul urges that 'supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be made for all men'.

The word 'mesites' in that passage, translated as 'mediator', is defined in Thayer's lexicon as meaning 'one who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant'. The Lord Jesus is the sole mediator of the New Covenant, who by his blood ratified it, but that doesn't mean no one else can intercede or you run afoul of all the requests for prayers.

And just in case you say that the Pope is Christ in earth:

Rest assured that I'd never say anything quite so whack-o.
Harbinger
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6/7/2013 8:15:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 8:05:50 AM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
1 Timothy 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 Timothy 2

'First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time.'

If this would be interpreted the way you seem to want to, it would result in a contradiction a mere four lines before, when Paul urges that 'supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be made for all men'.

I never said to do not pray for people. I said justify praying to dead human beings. We can pray that Jesus Christ intercedes. I agree there. That is not what we are discussing. We are discussing praying to saints and Mary, were no where in the Bible says to do that. It plainly says Jesus Christ is the only one to pray to.

The word 'mesites' in that passage, translated as 'mediator', is defined in Thayer's lexicon as meaning 'one who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant'. The Lord Jesus is the sole mediator of the New Covenant, who by his blood ratified it, but that doesn't mean no one else can intercede or you run afoul of all the requests for prayers.

You are trying to have it both ways. Jesus Christ said He intercedes and no one else. You are taking the passage and running down the street with inserting your own version of it. If you are right then show it Biblically. I maintain that you only should pray to Jesus Christ and no one else. I am not maintaining that we should not pray for people to Jesus Christ.

And just in case you say that the Pope is Christ in earth:

Rest assured that I'd never say anything quite so whack-o.

The RCC says that very thing. So, the RCC is whack-o? I agree.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
ExsurgeDomine
Posts: 176
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6/7/2013 8:21:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 8:15:29 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/7/2013 8:05:50 AM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
1 Timothy 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 Timothy 2

'First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time.'

If this would be interpreted the way you seem to want to, it would result in a contradiction a mere four lines before, when Paul urges that 'supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be made for all men'.

I never said to do not pray for people. I said justify praying to dead human beings. We can pray that Jesus Christ intercedes.

Can the saints pray for the Lord Jesus to intercede as well? Yes or no.

I agree there. That is not what we are discussing. We are discussing praying to saints and Mary, were no where in the Bible says to do that. It plainly says Jesus Christ is the only one to pray to.

The passage you posted actually says nothing about praying to Jesus Christ at all.

The word 'mesites' in that passage, translated as 'mediator', is defined in Thayer's lexicon as meaning 'one who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant'. The Lord Jesus is the sole mediator of the New Covenant, who by his blood ratified it, but that doesn't mean no one else can intercede or you run afoul of all the requests for prayers.

You are trying to have it both ways. Jesus Christ said He intercedes and no one else.

Who is Paul urging to make 'supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving' for all men?

You are taking the passage and running down the street with inserting your own version of it.

How so?

If you are right then show it Biblically. I maintain that you only should pray to Jesus Christ and no one else. I am not maintaining that we should not pray for people to Jesus Christ.

I refer you to my question two lines above.

The RCC says that very thing.

No it doesn't. Don't be ridiculous.
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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6/7/2013 8:25:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 4:58:53 AM, Harbinger wrote:
I am interested what this is about. Can someone explain?
http://ivarfjeld.com...

Good netiquette would have the topic made clear in the thread title. If you aren't clear there, then you should definitely be clear in the opening post. If you don't make the topic clear in either of those places, you're being rude.
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/7/2013 8:31:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 8:21:51 AM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 6/7/2013 8:15:29 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/7/2013 8:05:50 AM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
1 Timothy 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 Timothy 2

'First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time.'

If this would be interpreted the way you seem to want to, it would result in a contradiction a mere four lines before, when Paul urges that 'supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be made for all men'.

I never said to do not pray for people. I said justify praying to dead human beings. We can pray that Jesus Christ intercedes.

Can the saints pray for the Lord Jesus to intercede as well? Yes or no.

Oh, I agree that saints pray to the Lord. You are suggesting we pray to saints and not solely to Christ. You also are thinking all the elect living or not are saints.

I agree there. That is not what we are discussing. We are discussing praying to saints and Mary, were no where in the Bible says to do that. It plainly says Jesus Christ is the only one to pray to.

The passage you posted actually says nothing about praying to Jesus Christ at all.

Jesus did say to ask to God in His name (John 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23-26)

The word 'mesites' in that passage, translated as 'mediator', is defined in Thayer's lexicon as meaning 'one who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant'. The Lord Jesus is the sole mediator of the New Covenant, who by his blood ratified it, but that doesn't mean no one else can intercede or you run afoul of all the requests for prayers.

You are trying to have it both ways. Jesus Christ said He intercedes and no one else.

Who is Paul urging to make 'supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving' for all men?

Us. The elect.

The RCC says that very thing.

No it doesn't. Don't be ridiculous.

Ahh, but they do. Pope Leo XIII said these things about the role of the Papacy and the Roman Church:
Our thoughts went out towards the immense multitude of those who are strangers to the gladness that filled all Catholic hearts: some because they lie in absolute ignorance of the Gospel; others because they dissent from the Catholic belief, though they bear the name of Christians.

This thought has been, and is, a source of deep concern to Us; for it is impossible to think of such a large portion of mankind deviating, as it were, from the right path, as they move away from Us, and not experience a sentiment of innermost grief. But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty..

And more recently, Pope John Paul II wrote that names like "Holy Father" are applicable to the Pope, even though calling him that is counter to the Gospel:
Have no fear when people call me the "Vicar of Christ," when they say to me "Holy Father," or "Your Holiness," or use titles similar to these, which seem even inimical to the Gospel.x

In 1996 he also gave his ascent to calling the Pope "Lord" and "Christ on earth":
we readily understand the devotion of Saint Francis of Assisi for "the Lord Pope",the daughterly outspokenness of Saint Catherine of Siena towards the one whom she called "sweet Christ on earth".
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
ExsurgeDomine
Posts: 176
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6/7/2013 8:41:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 8:31:29 AM, Harbinger wrote:
Oh, I agree that saints pray to the Lord. You are suggesting we pray to saints and not solely to Christ.

To pray to someone just means to ask or entreat them to do something. So we can ask them to pray for us. That's pretty much the extent of the intercession of the saints.

You also are thinking all the elect living or not are saints.

Yes I am.

Jesus did say to ask to God in His name (John 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23-26)

Not disputing that.

Us. The elect.

How can we make intercessions if 'Jesus Christ said He intercedes and no one else'?

Ahh, but they do. Pope Leo XIII said these things about the role of the Papacy and the Roman Church:

For starters, Pope Leo XIII wasn't a church.

..But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty..

Holding the place of someone does not mean you are someone, obviously.

And more recently, Pope John Paul II wrote that names like "Holy Father" are applicable to the Pope, even though calling him that is counter to the Gospel:
Have no fear when people call me the "Vicar of Christ," when they say to me "Holy Father," or "Your Holiness," or use titles similar to these, which seem even inimical to the Gospel.x

Could you give me a reliable source for this, please? I've heard a lot of ridiculous quotes attributed to Blessed John Paul the Great, most of which were complete fabrications.

A quick Google search only turns up anti-Catholic websites.
Harbinger
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6/7/2013 2:10:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 8:41:26 AM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 6/7/2013 8:31:29 AM, Harbinger wrote:
Oh, I agree that saints pray to the Lord. You are suggesting we pray to saints and not solely to Christ.

To pray to someone just means to ask or entreat them to do something.

What makes you think you should pray to someone who is no longer on this earth? That they have power over you? They have some power that Jesus Christ dont?

So we can ask them to pray for us.

No, they are dead and you are praying to them, instead of Jesus Christ. Support that theology.

That's pretty much the extent of the intercession of the saints.

It extends that they have some power that Christ doesn't not. And if they do not then it is obvious your prayers are reserved for the one who can, Jesus.

You also are thinking all the elect living or not are saints.
I said that wrong sorry. I meant all the living elect are also saints.

How can we make intercessions if 'Jesus Christ said He intercedes and no one else'?

The living saints can pray for you. They pray straight to Christ for you. By praying to saints who are dead is ignoring Christ and upserping Him as the one who can answer your prayers, not them. I know they pray in heaven but they will for all the elect if you ask or not.

http://www.trueorthodoxy.org...
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
ExsurgeDomine
Posts: 176
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6/7/2013 2:24:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 2:10:19 PM, Harbinger wrote:
What makes you think you should pray to someone who is no longer on this earth? That they have power over you? They have some power that Jesus Christ dont?

Why does the Bible tell us to pray for other people? Do we have power over them? Can we do something for them Jesus Christ can't?

No, they are dead and you are praying to them, instead of Jesus Christ. Support that theology.

It extends that they have some power that Christ doesn't not.

No it doesn't. Seriously, I just explained that.

And if they do not then it is obvious your prayers are reserved for the one who can, Jesus.

It is written that the prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. I am not particularly righteous, so while I will pray, I don't expect it to be as effective as the prayers of the saints.

I said that wrong sorry. I meant all the living elect are also saints.

Okay.

The living saints can pray for you.

That's not what I asked.

They pray straight to Christ for you.

What do dead saints do, then? Do they somehow not pray to Christ?

By praying to saints who are dead is ignoring Christ and upserping Him as the one who can answer your prayers, not them.

What is this I don't even.

Anyway, you still haven't answered my question, so I'll ask it again.

How can we make intercessions if 'Jesus Christ said He intercedes and no one else'?

I know they pray in heaven but they will for all the elect if you ask or not.

It's not going to hurt to ask them then, will it?

http://www.trueorthodoxy.org...

Yeah, that doesn't really provide the quotes from Blessed John Paul the Great I was asking for.
Harbinger
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6/7/2013 3:25:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 2:24:58 PM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 6/7/2013 2:10:19 PM, Harbinger wrote:
What makes you think you should pray to someone who is no longer on this earth? That they have power over you? They have some power that Jesus Christ dont?

Why does the Bible tell us to pray for other people? Do we have power over them? Can we do something for them Jesus Christ can't?

I did not say do not pray for people. Matter of fact I said that was very much good. I am saying praying to those who are dead, to pray to Jesus for you.

No, they are dead and you are praying to them, instead of Jesus Christ. Support that theology.

It extends that they have some power that Christ doesn't not.

No it doesn't. Seriously, I just explained that.

No you haven't. If you are praying to someone deceased person then you are saying they have some power over you and Jesus is unable to hear you and therefore they have power Jesus don't. Otherwise Jesus can hear without them.

It is written that the prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. I am not particularly righteous, so while I will pray, I don't expect it to be as effective as the prayers of the saints.

I am a saint and I will pray for you. You can for me if your a saint. Though you want to pray to people who are with Jesus or are asleep, which ever you believe, or maybe something different, instead of going right Jesus. Like you asking the Pope to pray for you is fine. I am talking about dead people in Christ have no more power than you and certainly not Christ.

What do dead saints do, then? Do they somehow not pray to Christ?

Why would they? They are with Him. You should tell me what you think death entails. They pray for us to bless you, yes. But praying to them is going past Christ.

By praying to saints who are dead is ignoring Christ and upserping Him as the one who can answer your prayers, not them.

What is this I don't even.

Yes you do. You know very well you are resorting to men who dies already instead Christ himself. Do you not see that is not a personal relationship with Christ, it is with saints. And it is not even with them because they would not do no such thing themselves.

Anyway, you still haven't answered my question, so I'll ask it again.

How can we make intercessions if 'Jesus Christ said He intercedes and no one else'?

I did answer you. Living saints pray for you. That is interceding in your behalf. They still pray to Jesus Christ as you should. When you pray to dead people then you are using them to talk to Christ for you and instead of you doing for yourself.

I know they pray in heaven but they will for all the elect if you ask or not.

It's not going to hurt to ask them then, will it?

Yes, because you are trying to say they have some place where Christ is not. Answer this, If me and Jesus was standing beside each other, which will you prefer to talk to? Me or Him?

http://www.trueorthodoxy.org...

Yeah, that doesn't really provide the quotes from Blessed John Paul the Great I was asking for.

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com...
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
ExsurgeDomine
Posts: 176
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6/7/2013 3:42:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 3:25:31 PM, Harbinger wrote:
I did not say do not pray for people.

I did, though. And so does the Bible (I hope you won't make me dig up all the references, but rest assured I can if pressed).

Matter of fact I said that was very much good.

Indeed.

I am saying praying to those who are dead, to pray to Jesus for you.

So why does everything suddenly take a twist for the bizarre when the people you ask to pray for you are dead instead of alive?

If it's fine to ask living people to pray for you (I'll provide scripture if necessary, but this should be fairly obvious), then why is it not fine to ask dead people to pray for you?

No you haven't. If you are praying to someone deceased person then you are saying they have some power over you and Jesus is unable to hear you and therefore they have power Jesus don't. Otherwise Jesus can hear without them.

Well, could Jesus hear Paul? If he could, then why would Paul ask other people to pray for him (Romans 15:30)?

I am a saint and I will pray for you. You can for me if your a saint. Though you want to pray to people who are with Jesus or are asleep, which ever you believe, or maybe something different, instead of going right Jesus. Like you asking the Pope to pray for you is fine. I am talking about dead people in Christ have no more power than you and certainly not Christ.

If those dead people in Christ have no more power than me, and I can pray for you, then what in this precludes those dead people from praying for you too?

Why would they? They are with Him.

Exactly. So why not ask them to pray for me?

You should tell me what you think death entails. They pray for us to bless you, yes. But praying to them is going past Christ.

How is it going past Christ any more than asking a living person to pray for us would be?

Yes you do. You know very well you are resorting to men who dies already instead Christ himself.

wut

Do you not see that is not a personal relationship with Christ, it is with saints. And it is not even with them because they would not do no such thing themselves.

Of course I don't have any personal relationship with any saints, since they don't communicate back. I'm just asking them to pray for me, and it seems you've agreed that it's fine to ask living people to pray for you, so why does everything change when the people are dead?

I did answer you. Living saints pray for you. That is interceding in your behalf.

Okay, now how does this jive with your claim that 'Jesus Christ said He intercedes and no one else'? If they're interceding on your behalf too, how is that possible if only Jesus Christ intercedes?

They still pray to Jesus Christ as you should. When you pray to dead people then you are using them to talk to Christ for you and instead of you doing for yourself.

I'll still pray to the Lord Jesus myself, but the prayers of the saints are probably more efficacious than my own.

Yes, because you are trying to say they have some place where Christ is not.

How?

Answer this, If me and Jesus was standing beside each other, which will you prefer to talk to? Me or Him?

Probably Him, if he would listen.

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com...

Sedevacantists are just as anti-Catholic as those Orthodox you posted a while ago and all the Protestant sites I dug up. I want a sort of unbiased news source if possible.

Alright, I'm going to ask you a couple of questions.

Is it okay to ask a living person to pray for you? (If it is not okay, then why did Paul do so repeatedly?)

If it is okay to ask a living person to pray for you, why is it not okay to ask a dead person to pray for you?
Harbinger
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6/7/2013 4:27:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 3:42:31 PM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 6/7/2013 3:25:31 PM, Harbinger wrote:
I did not say do not pray for people.

I did, though. And so does the Bible (I hope you won't make me dig up all the references, but rest assured I can if pressed).

You will have to because you are wrong.

Job 42:10 And the Lord restored the fortunes of Job, when he had prayed for his friends. And the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before.

James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

I am saying praying to those who are dead, to pray to Jesus for you.

I know what you are saying. Please provide evidence that we should pray to deceased people.

So why does everything suddenly take a twist for the bizarre when the people you ask to pray for you are dead instead of alive?

Because they with Christ and instead of praying to Christ you pray to them. It is odd. See it is different for alive people, they are not with Christ yet and the Bible tells us to do such. The Bible does not say pray to those who have died and the only reference to it is damning.

If it's fine to ask living people to pray for you (I'll provide scripture if necessary, but this should be fairly obvious), then why is it not fine to ask dead people to pray for you?

Because the Bible says nothing about it and it also damns the only mention of such things, I have given verses to it already. It does not make any sense, they are dead and with Christ, why just by pass Christ and go to them?

Well, could Jesus hear Paul? If he could, then why would Paul ask other people to pray for him (Romans 15:30)?

Why would he not ask people to pray for him? This is not what we are talking about and just leave out anyone who is alive. We are talking dead people, Jesus is our Lord and of course you will pray to Him.

If those dead people in Christ have no more power than me, and I can pray for you, then what in this precludes those dead people from praying for you too?

They do pray for you, constantly, without you asking, so asking is senseless and unnecessary. Not to mention that Christ is right there and you could pray to Him.

Exactly. So why not ask them to pray for me?

Why ask them? Why just not pray to God yourself? Not to mention no where in the Bible does it say to pray to people who are dead. If it does show me.

How is it going past Christ any more than asking a living person to pray for us would be?

Good point. You can pray for yourself, only the Bible says that is ok and says nothing on dead people.

Of course I don't have any personal relationship with any saints,:

Bammm..you comprehend but refuse to drop that teaching.

since they don't communicate back. I'm just asking them to pray for me, and it seems you've agreed that it's fine to ask living people to pray for you, so why does everything change when the people are dead?

I answered that. So, tell me, what ever made you think they hear you or even know you are praying? Jesus does of course, but them, how?

I did answer you. Living saints pray for you. That is interceding in your behalf.

Okay, now how does this jive with your claim that 'Jesus Christ said He intercedes and no one else'? If they're interceding on your behalf too, how is that possible if only Jesus Christ intercedes?

You miss that they pray to Christ. Christ intercedes to God the Father.

I'll still pray to the Lord Jesus myself, but the prayers of the saints are probably more efficacious than my own.

No they are not. Jesus Christ hears you just the same and will give you what you need.

Answer this, If me and Jesus was standing beside each other, which will you prefer to talk to? Me or Him?

Probably Him, if he would listen.

You sound doubtful in faith. My question goes along with the saints, they are with Christ but instead of talking to your God, you go around Him and address mere men.

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com...

Sedevacantists are just as anti-Catholic as those Orthodox you posted a while ago and all the Protestant sites I dug up. I want a sort of unbiased news source if possible.

Do you think a RCC source will say such things? Ok, the vicar of Christ, you do know the Pope calls himself that? Look up in a regular dictionary, anyone, what Vicar means. Anti.........

Alright, I'm going to ask you a couple of questions.

Is it okay to ask a living person to pray for you? (If it is not okay, then why did Paul do so repeatedly?)

I thought I made it plain, yes that is ok.

If it is okay to ask a living person to pray for you, why is it not okay to ask a dead person to pray for you?

Provide verses that say too and that will be sufficient. If not then provide verses that say that dead people can hear you and know you are praying.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
ExsurgeDomine
Posts: 176
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6/9/2013 8:19:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 4:27:35 PM, Harbinger wrote:
You will have to because you are wrong.

Sorry, I misread you as saying the exact opposite of what you actually did say.

Because they with Christ and instead of praying to Christ you pray to them. It is odd.

Why would you ask someone else to pray to Christ for you instead of praying to Christ yourself? It is odd.

See it is different for alive people, they are not with Christ yet and the Bible tells us to do such.

WHY is it different for alive people?

The Bible does not say pray to those who have died and the only reference to it is damning.

It doesn't say not to, and there is no damning reference.

Because the Bible says nothing about it and it also damns the only mention of such things, I have given verses to it already.

As I've already pointed out, those mentions are in no way damning. Also, it can't say nothing about it while simultaneously damning it, that's incoherent.

It does not make any sense, they are dead and with Christ, why just by pass Christ and go to them?

Well it doesn't make any sense to ask someone else to pray for you, why not just pray to the Lord Jesus directly yourself?

Why would he not ask people to pray for him?

Please don't answer my questions with questions, it's not very helpful.

I'm not saying he couldn't ask people to pray for him, I agree that he could, but I'm asking why he would ask other people instead of just praying directly himself.

This is not what we are talking about and just leave out anyone who is alive.

Again, why is it okay to ask someone who's alive to pray for you, but not ask someone who's dead?

We are talking dead people, Jesus is our Lord and of course you will pray to Him.

Ya.

They do pray for you, constantly, without you asking, so asking is senseless and unnecessary.

That wouldn't necessarily make it in error, though.

Not to mention that Christ is right there and you could pray to Him.

He was right there when Paul asked other people to pray for him, so why didn't Paul just pray directly instead of wasting time asking other people to pray for him?

Why ask them?

Because asking other people to pray for you is good.

Why just not pray to God yourself?

Ask Paul why he felt the need to ask others instead of just praying to God himself.

Not to mention no where in the Bible does it say to pray to people who are dead. If it does show me.

I don't know if it does, to be honest.

Good point. You can pray for yourself, only the Bible says that is ok and says nothing on dead people.

Since I don't really see how this answers, I'll ask it again.

How is it going past Christ any more than asking a living person to pray for us would be?

Bammm..you comprehend but refuse to drop that teaching.

The teaching never says anything about having personal relationships with saints or anything. I'm roughly 95% sure about that.

I answered that.

I don't really think your answer makes too much sense, but I've already addressed this above.

So, tell me, what ever made you think they hear you or even know you are praying? Jesus does of course, but them, how?

It is written:

'Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us,'

If they had no idea what was going on, they wouldn't really be witnesses, would they?

You miss that they pray to Christ.

No, I don't miss that.

Christ intercedes to God the Father.

So when you said 'Jesus Christ said He intercedes and no one else', you meant that he is the only one who intercedes to Father God, but that other people can intercede to him on the behalf of others?

If you meant that, then this doesn't in any way affect praying to dead people, and if you didn't mean that then you're self-contradicting.

No they are not. Jesus Christ hears you just the same and will give you what you need.

So when St. James wrote that 'The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.', he meant that it had no greater power than that of an unrighteous man? That seems kind of pointless, and in fact misleading.

You sound doubtful in faith.

I know my faith is small.

My question goes along with the saints, they are with Christ but instead of talking to your God, you go around Him and address mere men.

Do you have a problem with St. Paul when he asks mere men to pray for him? Why could he not pray directly to God?

Do you think a RCC source will say such things?

Maybe, but I'm not necessarily asking for such a source. An unbiased source will do fine, but I do find it suspicious that you've only provided anti-Catholics so far.

Ok, the vicar of Christ, you do know the Pope calls himself that?

Yes.

Look up in a regular dictionary, anyone, what Vicar means. Anti.........

Vicar does not mean anti.

I thought I made it plain, yes that is ok.

Excellent.

Provide verses that say too and that will be sufficient. If not then provide verses that say that dead people can hear you and know you are praying.

Provided the latter, not sure if the former exist.