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Atheists getting "what they want."

drafterman
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6/7/2013 9:05:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I've seen this fallacious argument from time to time. I can't see how anyone thinks this is a serious statement.

First, yes, there are some atheists that, admittedly, don't want a god to exist. Consider Thomas Nagal:

"It isn"t just that I don"t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I"m right in my belief. It"s that I hope there is no God! I don"t want there to be a God; I don"t want the universe to be like that."

So, yes, there are atheists that don't want there to be a god. Any god. However, it does not follow from this statement that they want to go to a place of eternal punishment. What atheists like Nagel don't want to exist is the entire scenario: Heaven, Hell, God, the entire package. That does not, itself, lead to any preferences should all of that actually exist. If you tell me that someone is behind me, waiting to stab me in the back, and I don't believe you, that doesn't mean I want to be stabbed in the back.

Second, it still possible for me to want a god to exist yet still not believe in one. Since I acknowledge that reality doesn't conform to my wishes, I realize that what I want isn't always the case. This seems like a very basic and fundamental thing to believe, but it seems that some Christians don't. They believe that reality is whatever they want it to be; whatever they believe is the case, they also want to be the case. It seems odd, personally. Regardless, there are plenty of things I want to be the case that I don't believe are the case.

Lastly, this just seems like a lazy cop-out. It's a way of avoiding having to defend a belief in god combined with a underhanded way of cursing an atheist to hell but trying to spin it as acceptable since that's what the atheist "wants."
Rational_Thinker9119
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6/7/2013 9:21:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
There are virtually 0 emotional benefits of Atheism over Theism. Atheists can run the argument that Theists believe out of emotions, but it would be weak for the Theist to try to reverse that. Who wouldn't want a bad place where bad guys go, and a good place where good guys go where all the in justice of reality made up for? If you are alone, who wouldn't want to believe that you are really not alone and that the creator of the universe loves you and is watching over you? If you are going to believe in something for emotional reasons, you would have to be brain damaged to believe in Atheism.

As far as the eternal punishment goes, if I really thought this place existed I would be a Theist in a heart beat because that is a necessary condition for salvation. Why be an Atheist if you fear hell? That would be a self-defeating choice.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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6/7/2013 10:06:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 9:21:37 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
There are virtually 0 emotional benefits of Atheism over Theism. Atheists can run the argument that Theists believe out of emotions, but it would be weak for the Theist to try to reverse that. Who wouldn't want a bad place where bad guys go, and a good place where good guys go where all the in justice of reality made up for? If you are alone, who wouldn't want to believe that you are really not alone and that the creator of the universe loves you and is watching over you? If you are going to believe in something for emotional reasons, you would have to be brain damaged to believe in Atheism.

As far as the eternal punishment goes, if I really thought this place existed I would be a Theist in a heart beat because that is a necessary condition for salvation. Why be an Atheist if you fear hell? That would be a self-defeating choice.

Interesting.

And how would you go from not thinking it exists to "really thinking" it does?
drhead
Posts: 1,475
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6/7/2013 10:25:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 9:21:37 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
There are virtually 0 emotional benefits of Atheism over Theism. Atheists can run the argument that Theists believe out of emotions, but it would be weak for the Theist to try to reverse that. Who wouldn't want a bad place where bad guys go, and a good place where good guys go where all the in justice of reality made up for? If you are alone, who wouldn't want to believe that you are really not alone and that the creator of the universe loves you and is watching over you? If you are going to believe in something for emotional reasons, you would have to be brain damaged to believe in Atheism.

As far as the eternal punishment goes, if I really thought this place existed I would be a Theist in a heart beat because that is a necessary condition for salvation. Why be an Atheist if you fear hell? That would be a self-defeating choice.

Well, this is why secular humanism (moral philosophy that most atheists follow) teaches us to buck up and choose what we think is right.

Really, I can't find myself agreeing with the Bible's idea of morality. It just uses propaganda techniques to add in a load of other things as 'immoral behavior'. It starts by saying that some things that we all would agree with - that murder and stealing are immoral. Then it descends into some things that aren't intrinsically immoral - adultery, then homosexuality, and self-reinforcing rules like atheism being a sin, then before you know it it is telling you that it is immoral to eat pork or pheasant or shellfish and you're accepting it at face value!

And, to be perfectly honest, I don't want to believe that people go to hell over trivial crap like that. If people do bad things, they carry that albatross around their neck. That's all I need to know.
Wall of Fail

"You reject religion... calling it a sickness, to what ends??? Are you a Homosexual??" - Dogknox
"For me, Evolution is a zombie theory. I mean imaginary cartoons and wishful thinking support it?" - Dragonfang
"There are no mental health benefits of atheism. It is devoid of rational thinking and mental protection." - Gabrian
Rational_Thinker9119
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6/7/2013 10:30:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 10:06:43 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/7/2013 9:21:37 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
There are virtually 0 emotional benefits of Atheism over Theism. Atheists can run the argument that Theists believe out of emotions, but it would be weak for the Theist to try to reverse that. Who wouldn't want a bad place where bad guys go, and a good place where good guys go where all the in justice of reality made up for? If you are alone, who wouldn't want to believe that you are really not alone and that the creator of the universe loves you and is watching over you? If you are going to believe in something for emotional reasons, you would have to be brain damaged to believe in Atheism.

As far as the eternal punishment goes, if I really thought this place existed I would be a Theist in a heart beat because that is a necessary condition for salvation. Why be an Atheist if you fear hell? That would be a self-defeating choice.

Interesting.

And how would you go from not thinking it exists to "really thinking" it does?

A good reason perhaps? To quote Sam Harris:

"Now is there the slightest evidence for this [Hell]? No, it just says so in Mark 9, Matthew 13 and Revelations 14." - Sam Harris

Being scared of some mythical punishment written about by people in a desert thousands of years ago is the pinnacle of gullibility. If the only reason to believe in hell is some passages written in some book, I'll hedge my bets haha
Harbinger
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6/7/2013 10:57:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 10:25:21 AM, drhead wrote:
At 6/7/2013 9:21:37 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
There are virtually 0 emotional benefits of Atheism over Theism. Atheists can run the argument that Theists believe out of emotions, but it would be weak for the Theist to try to reverse that. Who wouldn't want a bad place where bad guys go, and a good place where good guys go where all the in justice of reality made up for? If you are alone, who wouldn't want to believe that you are really not alone and that the creator of the universe loves you and is watching over you? If you are going to believe in something for emotional reasons, you would have to be brain damaged to believe in Atheism.

As far as the eternal punishment goes, if I really thought this place existed I would be a Theist in a heart beat because that is a necessary condition for salvation. Why be an Atheist if you fear hell? That would be a self-defeating choice.

Well, this is why secular humanism (moral philosophy that most atheists follow) teaches us to buck up and choose what we think is right.

Really, I can't find myself agreeing with the Bible's idea of morality. It just uses propaganda techniques to add in a load of other things as 'immoral behavior'. It starts by saying that some things that we all would agree with - that murder and stealing are immoral. Then it descends into some things that aren't intrinsically immoral - adultery, then homosexuality, and self-reinforcing rules like atheism being a sin, then before you know it it is telling you that it is immoral to eat pork or pheasant or shellfish and you're accepting it at face value!

And, to be perfectly honest, I don't want to believe that people go to hell over trivial crap like that. If people do bad things, they carry that albatross around their neck. That's all I need to know.

To be honest, none of that stuff is required and if you actually knew the Bible and allowed someone to tell you what it means then you would know that. But you don't, you make judgments from false views.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Rational_Thinker9119
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6/7/2013 11:02:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 10:57:40 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/7/2013 10:25:21 AM, drhead wrote:
At 6/7/2013 9:21:37 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
There are virtually 0 emotional benefits of Atheism over Theism. Atheists can run the argument that Theists believe out of emotions, but it would be weak for the Theist to try to reverse that. Who wouldn't want a bad place where bad guys go, and a good place where good guys go where all the in justice of reality made up for? If you are alone, who wouldn't want to believe that you are really not alone and that the creator of the universe loves you and is watching over you? If you are going to believe in something for emotional reasons, you would have to be brain damaged to believe in Atheism.

As far as the eternal punishment goes, if I really thought this place existed I would be a Theist in a heart beat because that is a necessary condition for salvation. Why be an Atheist if you fear hell? That would be a self-defeating choice.

Well, this is why secular humanism (moral philosophy that most atheists follow) teaches us to buck up and choose what we think is right.

Really, I can't find myself agreeing with the Bible's idea of morality. It just uses propaganda techniques to add in a load of other things as 'immoral behavior'. It starts by saying that some things that we all would agree with - that murder and stealing are immoral. Then it descends into some things that aren't intrinsically immoral - adultery, then homosexuality, and self-reinforcing rules like atheism being a sin, then before you know it it is telling you that it is immoral to eat pork or pheasant or shellfish and you're accepting it at face value!

And, to be perfectly honest, I don't want to believe that people go to hell over trivial crap like that. If people do bad things, they carry that albatross around their neck. That's all I need to know.

To be honest, none of that stuff is required and if you actually knew the Bible and allowed someone to tell you what it means then you would know that. But you don't, you make judgments from false views.

An Ad Hominem and a Bare Assertion. Anymore fallacies you would like to rack up?
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/7/2013 11:04:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 10:30:51 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/7/2013 10:06:43 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/7/2013 9:21:37 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
There are virtually 0 emotional benefits of Atheism over Theism. Atheists can run the argument that Theists believe out of emotions, but it would be weak for the Theist to try to reverse that. Who wouldn't want a bad place where bad guys go, and a good place where good guys go where all the in justice of reality made up for? If you are alone, who wouldn't want to believe that you are really not alone and that the creator of the universe loves you and is watching over you? If you are going to believe in something for emotional reasons, you would have to be brain damaged to believe in Atheism.

As far as the eternal punishment goes, if I really thought this place existed I would be a Theist in a heart beat because that is a necessary condition for salvation. Why be an Atheist if you fear hell? That would be a self-defeating choice.

Interesting.

And how would you go from not thinking it exists to "really thinking" it does?

A good reason perhaps? To quote Sam Harris:

"Now is there the slightest evidence for this [Hell]? No, it just says so in Mark 9, Matthew 13 and Revelations 14." - Sam Harris

Being scared of some mythical punishment written about by people in a desert thousands of years ago is the pinnacle of gullibility. If the only reason to believe in hell is some passages written in some book, I'll hedge my bets haha

How do you not see the irrational view you display? One, you resort to disrespecting people in the desert like they knew nothing. You pump yourself up so high that you think you know more about it then they. This is the mistake every generation makes and you fail to see that. If you actually thought they were people like us and had very good reason themselves for thinking that way then you mite start to look into it honestly. Instead, you play them off as unintelligent and weak minded to think things were mythical, when your the one who is actually that way. You think a whole people and everyone that followed them are gullible to this day and think some how you are not.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/7/2013 11:05:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 11:02:47 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/7/2013 10:57:40 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/7/2013 10:25:21 AM, drhead wrote:
At 6/7/2013 9:21:37 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
There are virtually 0 emotional benefits of Atheism over Theism. Atheists can run the argument that Theists believe out of emotions, but it would be weak for the Theist to try to reverse that. Who wouldn't want a bad place where bad guys go, and a good place where good guys go where all the in justice of reality made up for? If you are alone, who wouldn't want to believe that you are really not alone and that the creator of the universe loves you and is watching over you? If you are going to believe in something for emotional reasons, you would have to be brain damaged to believe in Atheism.

As far as the eternal punishment goes, if I really thought this place existed I would be a Theist in a heart beat because that is a necessary condition for salvation. Why be an Atheist if you fear hell? That would be a self-defeating choice.

Well, this is why secular humanism (moral philosophy that most atheists follow) teaches us to buck up and choose what we think is right.

Really, I can't find myself agreeing with the Bible's idea of morality. It just uses propaganda techniques to add in a load of other things as 'immoral behavior'. It starts by saying that some things that we all would agree with - that murder and stealing are immoral. Then it descends into some things that aren't intrinsically immoral - adultery, then homosexuality, and self-reinforcing rules like atheism being a sin, then before you know it it is telling you that it is immoral to eat pork or pheasant or shellfish and you're accepting it at face value!

And, to be perfectly honest, I don't want to believe that people go to hell over trivial crap like that. If people do bad things, they carry that albatross around their neck. That's all I need to know.

To be honest, none of that stuff is required and if you actually knew the Bible and allowed someone to tell you what it means then you would know that. But you don't, you make judgments from false views.

An Ad Hominem and a Bare Assertion. Anymore fallacies you would like to rack up?

I haven't given any yet. All facts. Do you want to rack some up. It is a bare assertion to think someone who has no idea(it was shown by his statement) what they are talking about, actually makes claims on what they do not know.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Rational_Thinker9119
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6/7/2013 11:21:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 11:05:47 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/7/2013 11:02:47 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/7/2013 10:57:40 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/7/2013 10:25:21 AM, drhead wrote:
At 6/7/2013 9:21:37 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
There are virtually 0 emotional benefits of Atheism over Theism. Atheists can run the argument that Theists believe out of emotions, but it would be weak for the Theist to try to reverse that. Who wouldn't want a bad place where bad guys go, and a good place where good guys go where all the in justice of reality made up for? If you are alone, who wouldn't want to believe that you are really not alone and that the creator of the universe loves you and is watching over you? If you are going to believe in something for emotional reasons, you would have to be brain damaged to believe in Atheism.

As far as the eternal punishment goes, if I really thought this place existed I would be a Theist in a heart beat because that is a necessary condition for salvation. Why be an Atheist if you fear hell? That would be a self-defeating choice.

Well, this is why secular humanism (moral philosophy that most atheists follow) teaches us to buck up and choose what we think is right.

Really, I can't find myself agreeing with the Bible's idea of morality. It just uses propaganda techniques to add in a load of other things as 'immoral behavior'. It starts by saying that some things that we all would agree with - that murder and stealing are immoral. Then it descends into some things that aren't intrinsically immoral - adultery, then homosexuality, and self-reinforcing rules like atheism being a sin, then before you know it it is telling you that it is immoral to eat pork or pheasant or shellfish and you're accepting it at face value!

And, to be perfectly honest, I don't want to believe that people go to hell over trivial crap like that. If people do bad things, they carry that albatross around their neck. That's all I need to know.

To be honest, none of that stuff is required and if you actually knew the Bible and allowed someone to tell you what it means then you would know that. But you don't, you make judgments from false views.

An Ad Hominem and a Bare Assertion. Anymore fallacies you would like to rack up?

I haven't given any yet. All facts. Do you want to rack some up. It is a bare assertion to think someone who has no idea(it was shown by his statement) what they are talking about, actually makes claims on what they do not know.

That's an Ad Hominem. You are attacking the person (their understanding) to justify that you are right. This is a logical fallacy.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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6/7/2013 11:22:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 11:04:02 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/7/2013 10:30:51 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/7/2013 10:06:43 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/7/2013 9:21:37 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
There are virtually 0 emotional benefits of Atheism over Theism. Atheists can run the argument that Theists believe out of emotions, but it would be weak for the Theist to try to reverse that. Who wouldn't want a bad place where bad guys go, and a good place where good guys go where all the in justice of reality made up for? If you are alone, who wouldn't want to believe that you are really not alone and that the creator of the universe loves you and is watching over you? If you are going to believe in something for emotional reasons, you would have to be brain damaged to believe in Atheism.

As far as the eternal punishment goes, if I really thought this place existed I would be a Theist in a heart beat because that is a necessary condition for salvation. Why be an Atheist if you fear hell? That would be a self-defeating choice.

Interesting.

And how would you go from not thinking it exists to "really thinking" it does?

A good reason perhaps? To quote Sam Harris:

"Now is there the slightest evidence for this [Hell]? No, it just says so in Mark 9, Matthew 13 and Revelations 14." - Sam Harris

Being scared of some mythical punishment written about by people in a desert thousands of years ago is the pinnacle of gullibility. If the only reason to believe in hell is some passages written in some book, I'll hedge my bets haha

How do you not see the irrational view you display? One, you resort to disrespecting people in the desert like they knew nothing. You pump yourself up so high that you think you know more about it then they. This is the mistake every generation makes and you fail to see that. If you actually thought they were people like us and had very good reason themselves for thinking that way then you mite start to look into it honestly. Instead, you play them off as unintelligent and weak minded to think things were mythical, when your the one who is actually that way. You think a whole people and everyone that followed them are gullible to this day and think some how you are not.

ADDD HOMMMMINEEEMM.
bulproof
Posts: 25,197
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6/7/2013 11:25:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 11:04:02 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/7/2013 10:30:51 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/7/2013 10:06:43 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/7/2013 9:21:37 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
There are virtually 0 emotional benefits of Atheism over Theism. Atheists can run the argument that Theists believe out of emotions, but it would be weak for the Theist to try to reverse that. Who wouldn't want a bad place where bad guys go, and a good place where good guys go where all the in justice of reality made up for? If you are alone, who wouldn't want to believe that you are really not alone and that the creator of the universe loves you and is watching over you? If you are going to believe in something for emotional reasons, you would have to be brain damaged to believe in Atheism.

As far as the eternal punishment goes, if I really thought this place existed I would be a Theist in a heart beat because that is a necessary condition for salvation. Why be an Atheist if you fear hell? That would be a self-defeating choice.

Interesting.

And how would you go from not thinking it exists to "really thinking" it does?

A good reason perhaps? To quote Sam Harris:

"Now is there the slightest evidence for this [Hell]? No, it just says so in Mark 9, Matthew 13 and Revelations 14." - Sam Harris

Being scared of some mythical punishment written about by people in a desert thousands of years ago is the pinnacle of gullibility. If the only reason to believe in hell is some passages written in some book, I'll hedge my bets haha

How do you not see the irrational view you display? One, you resort to disrespecting people in the desert like they knew nothing. You pump yourself up so high that you think you know more about it then they. This is the mistake every generation makes and you fail to see that. If you actually thought they were people like us and had very good reason themselves for thinking that way then you mite start to look into it honestly. Instead, you play them off as unintelligent and weak minded to think things were mythical, when your the one who is actually that way. You think a whole people and everyone that followed them are gullible to this day and think some how you are not.
Actually they certainly appear, quite justifiably, superstitious and ignorant. Ignorant of their place in a scheme of things that didn't even extend to a solar system, let alone a universe. A belief in their superiority to the other animals and a greater destiny based on that perceived superiority. A search for a reason to explain the lights in the sky a reason to explain the seasons a reason to explain life and death. A search that could not and did not involve any sort of even pseudo scientific approach. Fear was the greatest influence on their deliberations. Tell me I can't prove that and you are correct. But I possess that that is suppressed and repressed in the religious, imagination. I can place myself in that world of fear from whence their stories came. Their stories didn't just pop into existence in the iron age, they were and are an accumulation of many thousands of years of human story telling. The attempts of the earliest humans to understand what they saw around them.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Harbinger
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6/7/2013 11:25:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 10:25:21 AM, drhead wrote:

Well, this is why secular humanism (moral philosophy that most atheists follow) teaches us to buck up and choose what we think is right.

What if what we think is right, is not right? Are you saying that we should just go with what we want to think it is, as right?

Really, I can't find myself agreeing with the Bible's idea of morality.

The Bible does even have the words moral or morality in it at all. It has laws. Laws do not have to what you think is moral. We all can find things in the law of our government that we think it immoral but still follow them.

It just uses propaganda techniques to add in a load of other things as 'immoral behavior'. It starts by saying that some things that we all would agree with - that murder and stealing are immoral. Then it descends into some things that aren't intrinsically immoral - adultery, then homosexuality, and self-reinforcing rules like atheism being a sin, then before you know it it is telling you that it is immoral to eat pork or pheasant or shellfish and you're accepting it at face value!

Again, like I said above, you insert personal opinion and it may be wrong. If the Law on earth says something is immoral and outlawed, it is and you must abide with it. If you do not then you pay the cost.

And, to be perfectly honest, I don't want to believe that people go to hell over trivial crap like that.

Do you think saved people do not do trivial things like that? They will still go to heaven and this shows your lack of actually understanding the Bible.

If people do bad things, they carry that albatross around their neck. That's all I need to know.

No we dont. Im saved and I do not worry about my sins taking me to hell. I still sin but I tend not as much not because I think I going to hell but because Jesus Christ has made want to change.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
SovereignDream
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6/7/2013 11:28:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 9:05:09 AM, drafterman wrote:
I've seen this fallacious argument from time to time. I can't see how anyone thinks this is a serious statement.

First, yes, there are some atheists that, admittedly, don't want a god to exist. Consider Thomas Nagal:

"It isn"t just that I don"t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I"m right in my belief. It"s that I hope there is no God! I don"t want there to be a God; I don"t want the universe to be like that."

So, yes, there are atheists that don't want there to be a god. Any god. However, it does not follow from this statement that they want to go to a place of eternal punishment. What atheists like Nagel don't want to exist is the entire scenario: Heaven, Hell, God, the entire package. That does not, itself, lead to any preferences should all of that actually exist. If you tell me that someone is behind me, waiting to stab me in the back, and I don't believe you, that doesn't mean I want to be stabbed in the back.

"It is true that a fear of death, a craving for cosmic justice, and a desire to see our lives as meaningful can lead us to want to believe that we have immortal souls specially created by God who will reward or punish us for our deeds in this life. But it is no less true that a desire to be free of traditional moral standards, and fear of certain -- real or imagined -- political and social consequences of the truth of religious belief, can also lead us to want to believe that we are just clever animals with no purpose to our lives other than the purposes we choose to give them, and that there is no cosmic judge who will punish us for disobeying an objective moral law. Atheism, like religion, can rest on a will to believe than on dispassionate rational arguments. Indeed, as the philosopher CFJ Martin has pointed out, the element of divine punishment -- traditionally damnation in Hell -- shows that atheism is hardly less plausibly motivated by wishful thinking than theism is. For while it is hard to understand why someone would want to believe that he is in danger of perpetual hellfire, it is not at all hard to see why one would desperately want not to believe this."

Edward Feser


Second, it still possible for me to want a god to exist yet still not believe in one. Since I acknowledge that reality doesn't conform to my wishes, I realize that what I want isn't always the case. This seems like a very basic and fundamental thing to believe, but it seems that some Christians don't. They believe that reality is whatever they want it to be; whatever they believe is the case, they also want to be the case. It seems odd, personally. Regardless, there are plenty of things I want to be the case that I don't believe are the case.

Right. I simply think that the majority of theists don't believe that there exists a God because they personally like the idea of there existing a God, but rather because they simply have good reason to believe that God exists, or, alternatively, God's existence simply feels to them to be as undeniable as, say, the existence of the external world.

Lastly, this just seems like a lazy cop-out. It's a way of avoiding having to defend a belief in god combined with a underhanded way of cursing an atheist to hell but trying to spin it as acceptable since that's what the atheist "wants."

Putting the question of whether God exists to one side, what I often don't understand is what is so undesirable of there existing an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, personal God who has created us and decided to reveal himself to us. I ask this as an open question to anybody willing to answer: what is so undesirable about such a being's existing? Often I hear public New Atheist figures harp on about how horrible it would be if a God existed, or how, a-la-Hitchens, God would be comparable to a Kim Jung Un, etc. But these figures often seem to have in mind a being who is not omnibenevolent.
Harbinger
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6/7/2013 11:28:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 11:21:33 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/7/2013 11:05:47 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/7/2013 11:02:47 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/7/2013 10:57:40 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/7/2013 10:25:21 AM, drhead wrote:
At 6/7/2013 9:21:37 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
There are virtually 0 emotional benefits of Atheism over Theism. Atheists can run the argument that Theists believe out of emotions, but it would be weak for the Theist to try to reverse that. Who wouldn't want a bad place where bad guys go, and a good place where good guys go where all the in justice of reality made up for? If you are alone, who wouldn't want to believe that you are really not alone and that the creator of the universe loves you and is watching over you? If you are going to believe in something for emotional reasons, you would have to be brain damaged to believe in Atheism.

As far as the eternal punishment goes, if I really thought this place existed I would be a Theist in a heart beat because that is a necessary condition for salvation. Why be an Atheist if you fear hell? That would be a self-defeating choice.

Well, this is why secular humanism (moral philosophy that most atheists follow) teaches us to buck up and choose what we think is right.

Really, I can't find myself agreeing with the Bible's idea of morality. It just uses propaganda techniques to add in a load of other things as 'immoral behavior'. It starts by saying that some things that we all would agree with - that murder and stealing are immoral. Then it descends into some things that aren't intrinsically immoral - adultery, then homosexuality, and self-reinforcing rules like atheism being a sin, then before you know it it is telling you that it is immoral to eat pork or pheasant or shellfish and you're accepting it at face value!

And, to be perfectly honest, I don't want to believe that people go to hell over trivial crap like that. If people do bad things, they carry that albatross around their neck. That's all I need to know.

To be honest, none of that stuff is required and if you actually knew the Bible and allowed someone to tell you what it means then you would know that. But you don't, you make judgments from false views.

An Ad Hominem and a Bare Assertion. Anymore fallacies you would like to rack up?

I haven't given any yet. All facts. Do you want to rack some up. It is a bare assertion to think someone who has no idea(it was shown by his statement) what they are talking about, actually makes claims on what they do not know.

That's an Ad Hominem. You are attacking the person (their understanding) to justify that you are right. This is a logical fallacy.

I did not attack him. If that is an attack then it is to sensitive around here. Buck up. And it is just incorrect to think you can play gold like Tiger Woods or play BB like Lebron James or play baseball like Miguel Cabrera. You can play them but not near as good because you need practice and to learn.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Harbinger
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6/7/2013 11:29:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 11:22:47 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/7/2013 11:04:02 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/7/2013 10:30:51 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/7/2013 10:06:43 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/7/2013 9:21:37 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
There are virtually 0 emotional benefits of Atheism over Theism. Atheists can run the argument that Theists believe out of emotions, but it would be weak for the Theist to try to reverse that. Who wouldn't want a bad place where bad guys go, and a good place where good guys go where all the in justice of reality made up for? If you are alone, who wouldn't want to believe that you are really not alone and that the creator of the universe loves you and is watching over you? If you are going to believe in something for emotional reasons, you would have to be brain damaged to believe in Atheism.

As far as the eternal punishment goes, if I really thought this place existed I would be a Theist in a heart beat because that is a necessary condition for salvation. Why be an Atheist if you fear hell? That would be a self-defeating choice.

Interesting.

And how would you go from not thinking it exists to "really thinking" it does?

A good reason perhaps? To quote Sam Harris:

"Now is there the slightest evidence for this [Hell]? No, it just says so in Mark 9, Matthew 13 and Revelations 14." - Sam Harris

Being scared of some mythical punishment written about by people in a desert thousands of years ago is the pinnacle of gullibility. If the only reason to believe in hell is some passages written in some book, I'll hedge my bets haha

How do you not see the irrational view you display? One, you resort to disrespecting people in the desert like they knew nothing. You pump yourself up so high that you think you know more about it then they. This is the mistake every generation makes and you fail to see that. If you actually thought they were people like us and had very good reason themselves for thinking that way then you mite start to look into it honestly. Instead, you play them off as unintelligent and weak minded to think things were mythical, when your the one who is actually that way. You think a whole people and everyone that followed them are gullible to this day and think some how you are not.

ADDD HOMMMMINEEEMM.

Maybe that was but your comment was also. It was not wrong, not one bit and your lack of response proves that.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
SovereignDream
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6/7/2013 11:32:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Also, I think a more sophisticated understanding of hell is that, rather than hell being a sort of red-hot, fiery cavern where you are poked at by a red, horned figure with a trident, hell is simply living in (perhaps eternal) separation from God.
Rational_Thinker9119
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6/7/2013 11:32:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 11:29:43 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/7/2013 11:22:47 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/7/2013 11:04:02 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/7/2013 10:30:51 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/7/2013 10:06:43 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/7/2013 9:21:37 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
There are virtually 0 emotional benefits of Atheism over Theism. Atheists can run the argument that Theists believe out of emotions, but it would be weak for the Theist to try to reverse that. Who wouldn't want a bad place where bad guys go, and a good place where good guys go where all the in justice of reality made up for? If you are alone, who wouldn't want to believe that you are really not alone and that the creator of the universe loves you and is watching over you? If you are going to believe in something for emotional reasons, you would have to be brain damaged to believe in Atheism.

As far as the eternal punishment goes, if I really thought this place existed I would be a Theist in a heart beat because that is a necessary condition for salvation. Why be an Atheist if you fear hell? That would be a self-defeating choice.

Interesting.

And how would you go from not thinking it exists to "really thinking" it does?

A good reason perhaps? To quote Sam Harris:

"Now is there the slightest evidence for this [Hell]? No, it just says so in Mark 9, Matthew 13 and Revelations 14." - Sam Harris

Being scared of some mythical punishment written about by people in a desert thousands of years ago is the pinnacle of gullibility. If the only reason to believe in hell is some passages written in some book, I'll hedge my bets haha

How do you not see the irrational view you display? One, you resort to disrespecting people in the desert like they knew nothing. You pump yourself up so high that you think you know more about it then they. This is the mistake every generation makes and you fail to see that. If you actually thought they were people like us and had very good reason themselves for thinking that way then you mite start to look into it honestly. Instead, you play them off as unintelligent and weak minded to think things were mythical, when your the one who is actually that way. You think a whole people and everyone that followed them are gullible to this day and think some how you are not.

ADDD HOMMMMINEEEMM.

Maybe that was but your comment was also. It was not wrong, not one bit and your lack of response proves that.

First, I ever attacked anyone personally to show I was right. I attacked the idea of believing wild claims just because they are written in text from books that are thousands of years old. Thus, you just committed the straw-man fallacy my misrepresenting my argument. Secondly, I did respond. I responded by pointing out the fallacies in your comments. Thus, making your comments invalidated and discredited.
Rational_Thinker9119
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6/7/2013 11:34:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 11:32:01 AM, SovereignDream wrote:
Also, I think a more sophisticated understanding of hell is that, rather than hell being a sort of red-hot, fiery cavern where you are poked at by a red, horned figure with a trident, hell is simply living in (perhaps eternal) separation from God.

If I said I'm so hungry I can eat a horse, that shouldn't be taken literally. However, if I keep talking about horses over and over again then there is obviously something literal going on. Thus, I'm not convinced by the theistic "retreat" from the Biblical account of Hell. It mentions fire and things of that nature too much to just be metaphorical in my opinion. If I am wrong, feel free to correct me.
Sower4GS
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6/7/2013 11:35:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Atheist's are getting the filth they want!:/

Psa_81:12 So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.

Eph_2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

oh_8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you wish to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.

Psa_37:4 And delight yourself in YHWH And let Him give you the desires of your heart.
Psa_140:8 "Do not grant the desires of the wrong, O YHWH; Do not promote his scheme. Selah.
Rational_Thinker9119
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6/7/2013 11:37:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 11:35:53 AM, Sower4GS wrote:
Atheist's are getting the filth they want!:/

Psa_81:12 So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.

Eph_2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

oh_8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you wish to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.

Psa_37:4 And delight yourself in YHWH And let Him give you the desires of your heart.
Psa_140:8 "Do not grant the desires of the wrong, O YHWH; Do not promote his scheme. Selah.

You are a religious nutcase. People like you make me glad I'm non-theist.
Harbinger
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6/7/2013 11:37:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 11:25:16 AM, bulproof wrote:

Actually they certainly appear, quite justifiably, superstitious and ignorant. Ignorant of their place in a scheme of things that didn't even extend to a solar system, let alone a universe.

Really? You know little. These people knew a lot about out universe and many people of those times did. Obviously you have done little research into this fact.

A belief in their superiority to the other animals and a greater destiny based on that perceived superiority.

What? Human beings are superior to animals in almost every way.

A search for a reason to explain the lights in the sky a reason to explain the seasons a reason to explain life and death. A search that could not and did not involve any sort of even pseudo scientific approach.

This is the same whole dishonest garb being taught in schools every where. Go study. These people were almost as advanced as we. You not knowing so shows the lies that still persist today.

Fear was the greatest influence on their deliberations. Tell me I can't prove that and you are correct.

I know you can't. This society is in fear of everything. These people did not have police or justice like we have today and you say they were in fear. They had to defend themselves from everything without some law man to help.

But I possess that that is suppressed and repressed in the religious, imagination.

No, it is just plain wrong.

I can place myself in that world of fear from whence their stories came. Their stories didn't just pop into existence in the iron age, they were and are an accumulation of many thousands of years of human story telling. The attempts of the earliest humans to understand what they saw around them.

LOL. We do not that today. We are sooooo smart. We are sooo aware.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Harbinger
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6/7/2013 11:38:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 11:32:01 AM, SovereignDream wrote:
Also, I think a more sophisticated understanding of hell is that, rather than hell being a sort of red-hot, fiery cavern where you are poked at by a red, horned figure with a trident, hell is simply living in (perhaps eternal) separation from God.

Indeed.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Harbinger
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6/7/2013 11:40:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 11:32:34 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

First, I ever attacked anyone personally to show I was right. I attacked the idea of believing wild claims just because they are written in text from books that are thousands of years old. Thus, you just committed the straw-man fallacy my misrepresenting my argument. Secondly, I did respond. I responded by pointing out the fallacies in your comments. Thus, making your comments invalidated and discredited.

Ooooooowww.. that scares me. I change my mind.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
drafterman
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6/7/2013 11:41:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 11:28:09 AM, SovereignDream wrote:
At 6/7/2013 9:05:09 AM, drafterman wrote:
I've seen this fallacious argument from time to time. I can't see how anyone thinks this is a serious statement.

First, yes, there are some atheists that, admittedly, don't want a god to exist. Consider Thomas Nagal:

"It isn"t just that I don"t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I"m right in my belief. It"s that I hope there is no God! I don"t want there to be a God; I don"t want the universe to be like that."

So, yes, there are atheists that don't want there to be a god. Any god. However, it does not follow from this statement that they want to go to a place of eternal punishment. What atheists like Nagel don't want to exist is the entire scenario: Heaven, Hell, God, the entire package. That does not, itself, lead to any preferences should all of that actually exist. If you tell me that someone is behind me, waiting to stab me in the back, and I don't believe you, that doesn't mean I want to be stabbed in the back.


"It is true that a fear of death, a craving for cosmic justice, and a desire to see our lives as meaningful can lead us to want to believe that we have immortal souls specially created by God who will reward or punish us for our deeds in this life. But it is no less true that a desire to be free of traditional moral standards, and fear of certain -- real or imagined -- political and social consequences of the truth of religious belief, can also lead us to want to believe that we are just clever animals with no purpose to our lives other than the purposes we choose to give them, and that there is no cosmic judge who will punish us for disobeying an objective moral law. Atheism, like religion, can rest on a will to believe than on dispassionate rational arguments. Indeed, as the philosopher CFJ Martin has pointed out, the element of divine punishment -- traditionally damnation in Hell -- shows that atheism is hardly less plausibly motivated by wishful thinking than theism is. For while it is hard to understand why someone would want to believe that he is in danger of perpetual hellfire, it is not at all hard to see why one would desperately want not to believe this."

Edward Feser

Which proves my point. Even if atheism is rooted in a desire to be "free" of these consequences of there being a god (and even Ed chooses his words carefully as not to imply the necessity of this) then this, logically, can't result in the conclusion that the atheist deliberately desires any particular consequence of their being a god! Ergo it is still erroneous to conclude that going to hell is what the atheist wants!



Second, it still possible for me to want a god to exist yet still not believe in one. Since I acknowledge that reality doesn't conform to my wishes, I realize that what I want isn't always the case. This seems like a very basic and fundamental thing to believe, but it seems that some Christians don't. They believe that reality is whatever they want it to be; whatever they believe is the case, they also want to be the case. It seems odd, personally. Regardless, there are plenty of things I want to be the case that I don't believe are the case.


Right. I simply think that the majority of theists don't believe that there exists a God because they personally like the idea of there existing a God, but rather because they simply have good reason to believe that God exists, or, alternatively, God's existence simply feels to them to be as undeniable as, say, the existence of the external world.

Ok. Not sure what this has to do with my point, but ok.


Lastly, this just seems like a lazy cop-out. It's a way of avoiding having to defend a belief in god combined with a underhanded way of cursing an atheist to hell but trying to spin it as acceptable since that's what the atheist "wants."

Putting the question of whether God exists to one side, what I often don't understand is what is so undesirable of there existing an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, personal God who has created us and decided to reveal himself to us. I ask this as an open question to anybody willing to answer: what is so undesirable about such a being's existing? Often I hear public New Atheist figures harp on about how horrible it would be if a God existed, or how, a-la-Hitchens, God would be comparable to a Kim Jung Un, etc. But these figures often seem to have in mind a being who is not omnibenevolent.

The problem is you have generalized the conception of god. Almost all individual and specific depictions of any and all gods portray them as petty, malicious, jealous, vindictive, and overall uncaring of the plight of humanity outside of our existence as worshippers and ego strokers for it.
Graincruncher
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6/7/2013 11:52:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 11:04:02 AM, Harbinger wrote:
How do you not see the irrational view you display? One, you resort to disrespecting people in the desert like they knew nothing. You pump yourself up so high that you think you know more about it then they. This is the mistake every generation makes and you fail to see that. If you actually thought they were people like us and had very good reason themselves for thinking that way then you mite start to look into it honestly. Instead, you play them off as unintelligent and weak minded to think things were mythical, when your the one who is actually that way. You think a whole people and everyone that followed them are gullible to this day and think some how you are not.

The irrational view of asking for evidence when presented with fantastical claims?
Harbinger
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6/7/2013 12:06:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 11:52:57 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 6/7/2013 11:04:02 AM, Harbinger wrote:
How do you not see the irrational view you display? One, you resort to disrespecting people in the desert like they knew nothing. You pump yourself up so high that you think you know more about it then they. This is the mistake every generation makes and you fail to see that. If you actually thought they were people like us and had very good reason themselves for thinking that way then you mite start to look into it honestly. Instead, you play them off as unintelligent and weak minded to think things were mythical, when your the one who is actually that way. You think a whole people and everyone that followed them are gullible to this day and think some how you are not.

The irrational view of asking for evidence when presented with fantastical claims?
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
SovereignDream
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6/7/2013 12:07:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 11:41:42 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/7/2013 11:28:09 AM, SovereignDream wrote:
At 6/7/2013 9:05:09 AM, drafterman wrote:
I've seen this fallacious argument from time to time. I can't see how anyone thinks this is a serious statement.

First, yes, there are some atheists that, admittedly, don't want a god to exist. Consider Thomas Nagal:

"It isn"t just that I don"t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I"m right in my belief. It"s that I hope there is no God! I don"t want there to be a God; I don"t want the universe to be like that."

So, yes, there are atheists that don't want there to be a god. Any god. However, it does not follow from this statement that they want to go to a place of eternal punishment. What atheists like Nagel don't want to exist is the entire scenario: Heaven, Hell, God, the entire package. That does not, itself, lead to any preferences should all of that actually exist. If you tell me that someone is behind me, waiting to stab me in the back, and I don't believe you, that doesn't mean I want to be stabbed in the back.


"It is true that a fear of death, a craving for cosmic justice, and a desire to see our lives as meaningful can lead us to want to believe that we have immortal souls specially created by God who will reward or punish us for our deeds in this life. But it is no less true that a desire to be free of traditional moral standards, and fear of certain -- real or imagined -- political and social consequences of the truth of religious belief, can also lead us to want to believe that we are just clever animals with no purpose to our lives other than the purposes we choose to give them, and that there is no cosmic judge who will punish us for disobeying an objective moral law. Atheism, like religion, can rest on a will to believe than on dispassionate rational arguments. Indeed, as the philosopher CFJ Martin has pointed out, the element of divine punishment -- traditionally damnation in Hell -- shows that atheism is hardly less plausibly motivated by wishful thinking than theism is. For while it is hard to understand why someone would want to believe that he is in danger of perpetual hellfire, it is not at all hard to see why one would desperately want not to believe this."

Edward Feser

Which proves my point. Even if atheism is rooted in a desire to be "free" of these consequences of there being a god (and even Ed chooses his words carefully as not to imply the necessity of this) then this, logically, can't result in the conclusion that the atheist deliberately desires any particular consequence of their being a god! Ergo it is still erroneous to conclude that going to hell is what the atheist wants!

Right. I wasn't contesting that. In fact, I agree with you.




Second, it still possible for me to want a god to exist yet still not believe in one. Since I acknowledge that reality doesn't conform to my wishes, I realize that what I want isn't always the case. This seems like a very basic and fundamental thing to believe, but it seems that some Christians don't. They believe that reality is whatever they want it to be; whatever they believe is the case, they also want to be the case. It seems odd, personally. Regardless, there are plenty of things I want to be the case that I don't believe are the case.


Right. I simply think that the majority of theists don't believe that there exists a God because they personally like the idea of there existing a God, but rather because they simply have good reason to believe that God exists, or, alternatively, God's existence simply feels to them to be as undeniable as, say, the existence of the external world.

Ok. Not sure what this has to do with my point, but ok.


Lastly, this just seems like a lazy cop-out. It's a way of avoiding having to defend a belief in god combined with a underhanded way of cursing an atheist to hell but trying to spin it as acceptable since that's what the atheist "wants."

Putting the question of whether God exists to one side, what I often don't understand is what is so undesirable of there existing an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, personal God who has created us and decided to reveal himself to us. I ask this as an open question to anybody willing to answer: what is so undesirable about such a being's existing? Often I hear public New Atheist figures harp on about how horrible it would be if a God existed, or how, a-la-Hitchens, God would be comparable to a Kim Jung Un, etc. But these figures often seem to have in mind a being who is not omnibenevolent.

The problem is you have generalized the conception of god. Almost all individual and specific depictions of any and all gods portray them as petty, malicious, jealous, vindictive, and overall uncaring of the plight of humanity outside of our existence as worshippers and ego strokers for it.

I'm convinced those depictions are wrong. But, for the sake of the conversation, suppose that they are, in fact, wrong and that God is truly omnibenevolent. What is so undesirable about such a being existing?
Sower4GS
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6/7/2013 12:10:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 12:07:34 PM, SovereignDream wrote:d -- political and social consequences of the truth of religious belief, can also lead us to want to believe that we are just clever animals with no purpose to our lives other than the purposes we choose to give them, and that there is no cosmic judge who will punish us for disobeying an objective moral law. Atheism, like religion, can rest on a will to believe than on dispassionate rational arguments. Indeed, as the philosopher CFJ Martin has pointed out, the element of divine punishment -- traditionally damnation in Hell -- shows that atheism is hardly less plausibly motivated by wishful thinking than theism is. For while it is hard to understand why someone would want to believe that he is in danger of perpetual hellfire, it is not at all hard to see why one would desperately want not to believe this."

Edward Feser

Which proves my point. Even if atheism is rooted in a desire to be "free" of these consequences of there being a god (and even Ed chooses his words carefully as not to imply the necessity of this) then this, logically, can't result in the conclusion that the atheist deliberately desires any particular consequence of their being a god! Ergo it is still erroneous to conclude that going to hell is what the atheist wants!

Right. I wasn't contesting that. In fact, I agree with you.




Second, it still possible for me to want a god to exist yet still not believe in one. Since I acknowledge that reality doesn't conform to my wishes, I realize that what I want isn't always the case. This seems like a very basic and fundamental thing to believe, but it seems that some Christians don't. They believe that reality is whatever they want it to be; whatever they believe is the case, they also want to be the case. It seems odd, personally. Regardless, there are plenty of things I want to be the case that I don't believe are the case.


Right. I simply think that the majority of theists don't believe that there exists a God because they personally like the idea of there existing a God, but rather because they simply have good reason to believe that God exists, or, alternatively, God's existence simply feels to them to be as undeniable as, say, the existence of the external world.

Ok. Not sure what this has to do with my point, but ok.


Lastly, this just seems like a lazy cop-out. It's a way of avoiding having to defend a belief in god combined with a underhanded way of cursing an atheist to hell but trying to spin it as acceptable since that's what the atheist "wants."

Putting lous, vindictive, and overall uncaring of the plight of humanity outside of our existence

Atheist's are getting the filth they want!:/

Psa_81:12 So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.

Eph_2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

oh_8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you wish to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.

Psa_37:4 And delight yourself in YHWH And let Him give you the desires of your heart.
Psa_140:8 "Do not grant the desires of the wrong, O YHWH; Do not promote his scheme. Selah.
http://www.beithakavod.com......
Graincruncher
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6/7/2013 12:12:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Harbinger, what makes you for a second think that I'd have any interest in watching whatever videos they are (neither are loading for me, so the point is moot), when you can't even string together a remotely coherent post?