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Sola Scriptura

ExsurgeDomine
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6/7/2013 3:07:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
'Of the dogmas and messages preserved in the Church, some we possess from written teaching and others we receive from the tradition of the apostles, handed on to us in mystery. In respect to piety, both are of the same force. No one will contradict any of these, no one, at any rate, who is even moderately versed in matters ecclesiastical. Indeed, were we to try to reject unwritten customs as having no great authority, we would unwittingly injure the gospel in its vitals; or rather, we would reduce [Christian] message to a mere term.' - St. Basil the Great
Harbinger
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6/7/2013 3:27:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Good post to discuss. I gotta get off but we I get back to this.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Dogknox
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6/7/2013 4:13:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 3:07:50 PM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
'Of the dogmas and messages preserved in the Church, some we possess from written teaching and others we receive from the tradition of the apostles, handed on to us in mystery. In respect to piety, both are of the same force. No one will contradict any of these, no one, at any rate, who is even moderately versed in matters ecclesiastical. Indeed, were we to try to reject unwritten customs as having no great authority, we would unwittingly injure the gospel in its vitals; or rather, we would reduce [Christian] message to a mere term.' - St. Basil the Great
ExsurgeDomine Good to meet you..

I add.... Scriptures themselves reinforce the words of St. Basil the Great.
The Bereans were MORE NOBLE because they listen to the TEACHING of Paul/Church without being told to listen! The Bereans did not trust in only the scriptures.

Fact is.. The Bereans REJECTED the "Scriptures ALONE"!

The people of Thessalonica believed in the "Scriptures ALONE"> Thus they were the LESS NOBLE; They refused to listen to Paul/Church outright!

Acts 17:11
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

BUT....
ExsurgeDomine but the people of Thessalonica have an EXCUSE when they stand in judgement.. Their Old Testament scriptures did not have written "Listen to the Church" as we have in our New Testaments!
Today; All who reject the the teaching of the CHURCH have NO EXCUSE, they are NOT NOBLE: They must reject the scriptures to believe; "Scriptures alone" bring salvation!

Scriptures teach.. "Listen to the Church"!
Scriptures teach.. "The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth"!
Scriptures teach.. "The Church Jesus formed is, Holy & Blameless"!
Scriptures teach.. "Jesus is always with his Church to the end of the world" thus his TEACHING Church never, ever needs to be restored!
Harbinger
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6/9/2013 6:59:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 4:13:31 PM, Dogknox wrote:

I add.... Scriptures themselves reinforce the words of St. Basil the Great.
The Bereans were MORE NOBLE because they listen to the TEACHING of Paul/Church without being told to listen! The Bereans did not trust in only the scriptures.

Well no duh. Paul witnessed the life of Jesus. He was selected by Jesus to pass the Word and teach it. Of course you should listen to PAUL but a Pope thousands of years later is just nonsense. The only thing left of Paul is his teaching in scripture, hence, that is the authority. Jesus is the Word and He is God, the Bible is the Word and the voice of Christ. No man is. Stop blabbing that Satanic cult nonsense.

Fact is.. The Bereans REJECTED the "Scriptures ALONE"!

No, they chose to listen to the man Christ chose to give the word. They are noble for listen to the very man who would have His teachings in the Bible. Are the Bereans teachings in the Bible? I think not. Is the Popes teachings in the Bible? I think not. Does the Bible say listen to men outside the scriptures? Nope!

The people of Thessalonica believed in the "Scriptures ALONE"> Thus they were the LESS NOBLE; They refused to listen to Paul/Church outright!

What a distort of the Word of God. You should be ashamed of yourself. Paul was teachings the Word in the Bible because his teachings are in it. No Pope is. No other churches teachings are.

ExsurgeDomine but the people of Thessalonica have an EXCUSE when they stand in judgement.. Their Old Testament scriptures did not have written "Listen to the Church" as we have in our New Testaments!

Depends who you think that church is. It sure is not the Roman Catholic church. Some people in the Roman Catholic are the church but the Pope today and the RCC today is not that church. They are the whore of Babylon. Who else reflect the whore in revelations? The RCC.

Today; All who reject the the teaching of the CHURCH have NO EXCUSE, they are NOT NOBLE: They must reject the scriptures to believe; "Scriptures alone" bring salvation!

Scriptures teach.. "Listen to the Church"!
Yeah, because His real church are every single Christian who listens to the Word He has given and not some man teaching outside of it.
Scriptures teach.. "The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth"!
Why? The Bible and the Holy Ghost.
Scriptures teach.. "The Church Jesus formed is, Holy & Blameless"!
Why? Because Jesus put your sins on Himself.
Scriptures teach.. "Jesus is always with his Church to the end of the world" thus his TEACHING Church never, ever needs to be restored!
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
ExsurgeDomine
Posts: 176
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6/9/2013 8:19:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/9/2013 6:59:31 AM, Harbinger wrote:
Well no duh.

Concession that sola scriptura is false?

Paul witnessed the life of Jesus. He was selected by Jesus to pass the Word

Personally I always felt that the capital-W Word referred to Jesus.

and teach it. Of course you should listen to PAUL but a Pope thousands of years later is just nonsense.

Why?

'Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account...'

The only thing left of Paul is his teaching in scripture, hence, that is the authority.

These are the kind of assertions that need to be called out because they're actual;y pretty huge assumptions.

Jesus is the Word and He is God, the Bible is the Word and the voice of Christ.

So is the Bible Jesus?

Jesus = Word, Word = Bible, ergo Jesus = Bible?

That sounds more like Satanic cult nonsense. Replace God with a book, ay?

Anyway, the word of the Lord is more than just the Bible.

No man is. Stop blabbing that Satanic cult nonsense.

Where did Dogknox say that, outside of your own imagination?

No, they chose to listen to the man Christ chose to give the word.

Paul SPOKE to them, you know. It's not like he sat there mutely scribbling on paper for them to read. They listened to the oral teachings Paul gave them.

They are noble for listen to the very man who would have His teachings in the Bible.

Yes, LISTENING to him, not reading him.

Are the Bereans teachings in the Bible? I think not. Is the Popes teachings in the Bible? I think not.

Think a little harder, mkay?

Does the Bible say listen to men outside the scriptures? Nope!

2 Timothy 2

'and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.'

What a distort of the Word of God.

He's actually spot-on, and it's necessary that he say things like this because I've often heard people try to submit that the Bereans were more noble for believing sola scriptura, which could not be further from the truth.

You should be ashamed of yourself. Paul was teachings the Word in the Bible because his teachings are in it.

Prove it.

No Pope is. No other churches teachings are.

lol, that's slightly incoherent, isn't it?

Depends who you think that church is.

I'd say that there's really only two serious contenders.

It sure is not the Roman Catholic church.

Assertion.

Some people in the Roman Catholic are the church but the Pope today and the RCC today is not that church.

Assertion.

They are the whore of Babylon.

Assertion.

Who else reflect the whore in revelations? The RCC.

Assertion.

Yeah, because His real church are every single Christian who listens to the Word He has given and not some man teaching outside of it.

If you say the church is every single Christian who listens to the word, may I ask how you interpret this parable:

"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net which was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind; when it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into vessels but threw away the bad. So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth."

Why? The Bible and the Holy Ghost.

As long as you don't restrict it to the Holy Spirit and just the Bible, this is actually more or less true.

Scriptures teach.. "Jesus is always with his Church to the end of the world" thus his TEACHING Church never, ever needs to be restored!

'course there's no response to this.
Dogknox
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6/9/2013 2:22:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Harbinger
Jesus formed ONE Church.. The Holy Catholic Church!
The ONLY Church he formed he COMMISSIONED to "TEACH ALL NATIONS"!
Jesus tells you as he told all the "De-formers" he is ALWAYS with his Church" Jesus did not leave the Church he formed for any of the thousands and thousands man made churches!!

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

DO YOU SEE IT?? To the End of the world Jesus remains with his Holy Catholic Church!
He started with one Church he remains with the ONE Church!

Ignatius of Antioch is a CATHOLIC BISHOP!!
Ignatius of Antioch was a student of the Apostle John!
Ignatius said.. note the date..
"Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans"8:2 [A.D. 110])."

Do you see it???
"Just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church"

Augustine is a CATHOLIC BISHOP..
He said..
We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is Catholic and is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name, which the whole world employs in her regard (The True Religion 7:12 [A.D. 390]).

Harbinger The ONLY CHURCH Jesus is with is NOT your man made church! Jesus' ONE Holy Catholic Church!
Dogknox
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6/9/2013 4:11:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Harbinger I add to the post above.. Paul was TEACHING the Bereans; "Christ resurrected" and Christ resurrected is not in the Old Testament.. The Bereans needed a TEACHER to find truth and SALVATION!

The Jews to this day have not found the truth from their Old Testament scriptures.. PROVING beyond all doubt; The very idea of "Scriptures ALONE" are all man needs, to find the truth is a "LIE"!

Harbinger CHURCH TEACHES and brings salvation to all the earth!

Acts 13:47
For this is what the Lord has commanded us: ""I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.""

For anyone to think all he needs is the scriptures, they MUST reject the scriptures!
The scriptures tell all CHRISTIANS.. "The Church is HOLY!"
The scriptures tell all CHRISTIANS.. "The Church is the foundation of truth!"
The scriptures tell all CHRISTIANS.. "The Church is Blameless!"
The scriptures tell all CHRISTIANS.. "The Church TEACHES all nations!"
The scriptures tell all CHRISTIANS.. "Jesus died for the Church!"
The scriptures tell all CHRISTIANS.. "The Church is Jesus' body!"
The scriptures tell all CHRISTIANS.. "Jesus loves the Church!"
The scriptures tell all CHRISTIANS.. "The Church was empowered by the Holy Spirit"!
The scriptures tell all CHRISTIANS.. "Jesus is ALWAYS with his Church to the end of time!"

Harbinger The "De-Formers" have to REJECT the scriptures to teach; "All man needs is the scriptures"!! Whack, whack, whack Oooooh!!
annanicole
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6/9/2013 4:26:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"Scriptures teach.. "Jesus is always with his Church to the end of the world" thus his TEACHING Church never, ever needs to be restored!

'course there's no response to this."

LMAO @ "no response". The passage, including the perversions of it (mostly by Catholics), has been "responded to" many, many times - dozen of times by me alone. The "response" is never acknowledged, never challenged. I'm not saying my "response" is necessarily correct: I'm saying it is plausible and reasonable. Yet this next time Dogknox comments on the passage, if he comments, he'll force his same interpretation on it. Why? Well, he has to. Absolutely has to. He simply must take one possible meaning, discard all the others, and run with it. Exsurge would most likely do that same.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Dogknox
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6/9/2013 4:42:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/9/2013 4:26:29 PM, annanicole wrote:
"Scriptures teach.. "Jesus is always with his Church to the end of the world" thus his TEACHING Church never, ever needs to be restored!

'course there's no response to this."

LMAO @ "no response". The passage, including the perversions of it (mostly by Catholics), has been "responded to" many, many times - dozen of times by me alone. The "response" is never acknowledged, never challenged. I'm not saying my "response" is necessarily correct: I'm saying it is plausible and reasonable. Yet this next time Dogknox comments on the passage, if he comments, he'll force his same interpretation on it. Why? Well, he has to. Absolutely has to. He simply must take one possible meaning, discard all the others, and run with it. Exsurge would most likely do that same.

Acts 13:47
For this is what the Lord has commanded us: ""I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.""

annanicole the "US" and the "YOU" in the verse (above) is the Holy Catholic Church Jesus formed the ONLY Church Jesus empowered to TEACH ALL NATIONS!
There was NO others, there was NO man made churches around, thinking they need to RESTORE Jesus' Church! DUH!!

It can ONLY be the Church Jesus is ALWAYS with, to the "End Of the World"! The Holy Blameless Catholic Church with Peter as the first Shepherd!

The Great Commission: Jesus sent HIS CHURCH to TEACH all Nations!
The TEACHING of the ONLY Church Jesus is ALWAYS with, brings salvation to all the earth!

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations....
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

annanicole for you to say anything different, you again will be forced to REJECT the words of Jesus, thus again CONDEMNING yourself!
annanicole
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6/9/2013 4:58:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Dogknox: "For this is what the Lord has commanded us: ""I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.""
annanicole the "US" and the "YOU" in the verse (above) is the Holy Catholic Church Jesus formed the ONLY Church Jesus empowered to TEACH ALL NATIONS!"

Anna: No, it's not. It's Paul and Barnabas. And neither of them ever heard of the Catholic Church.

*****

Dogknox: 'annanicole for you to say anything different, you again will be forced to REJECT the words of Jesus, thus again CONDEMNING yourself!"

Anna: Well, I do say different. And for you to take a passage that was uttered to the apostles before the church ever existed - and then try to tell everyone that Jesus was talking to the church is a self-condemnation. This has been explained to you a dozen times.

What does "and lo, I am with you all the way, even until the consummation of the age mean?"

Try this: look at the parallel passage in Mark:

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Those signs ARE the "I am with you always". The passages are parallel. Jesus meant that He was with them - with them in the form of miraculous confirmation - until the very end of the age. The Catholic Church, nor any representatives of it, can perform any miracles; hence, the Lord is NOT with them in the miraculous form. He's not with anyone else in that manner, either.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Dogknox
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6/9/2013 9:21:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"For this is what the Lord has commanded us: ""I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.""
annanicole the "US" and the "YOU" in the verse (above) is the Holy Catholic Church Jesus formed the ONLY Church Jesus empowered to TEACH ALL NATIONS!"

You said.. Anna: No, it's not. It's Paul and Barnabas. And neither of them ever heard of the Catholic Church.


I reply to your illogical statement..
Paul and Barnabas are IN the ONLY CHURCH Jesus formed and the ONLY CHURCH Jesus REMAINS with, even to the very end of the world!
The ONLY CHURCH Jesus is ALWAYS with to the end of TIME!
Paul and Barnabas are IN the ONLY CHURCH Jesus formed
PROVING FOR SURE..Without doubt... The Church Paul and Barnabas are IN is NOT it CANNOT be your church.. LOGIC alone says I am right!

Your church says.. Jesus lied.. Your Church says "Jesus is NOT with his CHURCH to the end of the world"! Thus Paul and Barnabas CANNOT be in your church they are IN the ONLY CHURCH Jesus will never leave!

FACT: Documented, historical, HISTORY! Jesus formed ONE CHURCH, the Holy Catholic Church!
annanicole Your Church teaches, The Church Jesus formed FAILED!!
annanicole Thus your Church the "churches Of Christ" rejects the scriptures!

annanicole Your Church is NOT, it CANNOT be the ONLY CHURCH; Jesus is ALWAYS WITH!!! Whack Ooooh!
FACT: Jesus is NOT with any church that rejects his words! Effectively proving your church is not even close to Jesus!! Your church is a child of Satan.. Satan also rejects Jesus and the words of Jesus!

You say your "churches of Christ" is trying to RESTORE Jesus' Church.. Thus your Church the "churches Of Christ" rejects the scriptures!
Also..
Your Church teaches; "The Scriptures are the only truth" PROVING beyond all doubt; Your man made Church, the "churches Of Christ" rejects the scriptures!

1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God"s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
ExsurgeDomine
Posts: 176
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6/10/2013 2:24:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/9/2013 4:26:29 PM, annanicole wrote:
LMAO @ "no response". The passage, including the perversions of it (mostly by Catholics), has been "responded to" many, many times - dozen of times by me alone. The "response" is never acknowledged, never challenged. I'm not saying my "response" is necessarily correct: I'm saying it is plausible and reasonable. Yet this next time Dogknox comments on the passage, if he comments, he'll force his same interpretation on it. Why? Well, he has to. Absolutely has to. He simply must take one possible meaning, discard all the others, and run with it. Exsurge would most likely do that same.

Well I wasn't talking to you, but I'm not sure what you intend to accomplish by ranting without being so kind as to reproduce the response in question.

Presuming this is the reply:

"With you" in what manner? Personally? Of course not, for He soon ascended. "With you" through grace? No, the grace of God is with all men, or hath appeared to all men. "With you" miraculously? I'd say so, based upon the parallel in Mark 16: 9-20. He WAS with them, miraculously until the consummation of the Jewish Age with the destruction of the temple in AD70.

I searched 'close of the age', and found that that phrase was used only five times, and out of those times three of them were in Matthew 13.

Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field." He answered, "He who sows the good seed is the Son of man; the field is the world, and the good seed means the sons of the kingdom; the weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net which was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind; when it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into vessels but threw away the bad. So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.

The fourth time was in Matthew 24.

As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?"

And of course, the fifth time was in Matthew 28.

It would appear that every time 'close of the age' is used, it is used to denote the end (probably why some translations loosely render it stuff like 'end of the world', 'end of time'). The evildoers are thrown into the fire after the harvest (or the sorting) which is at the close of the age. The Lord will return at the close of age. This corresponds with the Judgement of Nations in Matthew 25, as the Lord will come with his angels and separate the sheep from the goats (or the wheat from the chaff, or the good fish from the bad fish), so there's little room to reasonably doubt that in four out of five usages, this phrase refers to the day of judgement.

It would therefore seem unusual for it to refer to the close of the Jewish age in Matthew 28, especially without any sort of context in that particular section which would lend itself to such an interpretation.
annanicole
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6/10/2013 6:43:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Exsurge: 'Well I wasn't talking to you, but I'm not sure what you intend to accomplish by ranting without being so kind as to reproduce the response in question."

Anna: Well, I wasn't directly talking to you, either, but I sure don't mind doing it. The comment which included your - which was merely an aside comment - with reference to your comment:

Dogknox to Harbinger: Scriptures teach.. "Jesus is always with his Church to the end of the world" thus his TEACHING Church never, ever needs to be restored!

Exsurge: 'course there's no response to this.

The "of course" part was what incited my comment. Why is it "of course"? It is as if it is unanswerable?

Matt 13: age refers to the end of all things
Matt 24: age refers to (or could just as easily refer to) the end of the Jewish economy, the "coming of the Lord" is in judgment of the Jewish nation. That was the context of the chapter. Jesus spoke very little of the 2nd coming in either Matt 24 or Luke 21. At best, the phrase is ambiguous.

We all agree that telios means "end or consummation". That's not the problem. The problem revolves around aion. The word can very well mean "the world" as in "eternity" - this present world: I never said it couldn't or didn't. However, the word just as can easil means a certain period of time or an age or an era. Every lexicon allows this meaning.

Matt 28: 19, 20 thus need not mean that Jesus Christ is personally guiding His apostles until the world ends - in fact, the passage was never spoken to the church in the first place. One must assume that the promise carries forward to the church - then one must assume that the phrase "until the end of the age" means until the world ends.

Yet what I see is this: when faced with very questionable verses - very unrelated passages elsewhere - folks like ole Dogknox will twist them into compliance with Matt. 28: 19, 20. That's fine if Matt 28: 19, 20 has only one possible meaning. That's not the case, though. Tis a poor protocol to based a doctrine upon ONE passage with an ambiguous meaning. That's the objection.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
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6/10/2013 6:49:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Exsurge: "It would therefore seem unusual for it to refer to the close of the Jewish age in Matthew 28, especially without any sort of context in that particular section which would lend itself to such an interpretation."

Anna: Oh, I forgot the context. Mark 16: 15-20 would be a parallel account of the Great Commission. The reason for thinking that Matt 28 could very possibly refer to the miraculous activity as the "presence" of Christ with His apostles until the end of the Jewish era is .... "in MY name, ye shall .... (essentially be able to confirm your inspiration with miracles all the way though verse 20). The context does mention miracles: it does not directly mention the church/kingdom of God although it is implied.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Harbinger
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6/10/2013 7:40:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 3:07:50 PM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
Well no duh.
Concession that sola scriptura is false?

No sir. That is a concession that we must obey the teachings of Paul without question. May I ask, is going outside the Bible that very thing?

Paul witnessed the life of Jesus. He was selected by Jesus to pass the Word
Personally I always felt that the capital-W Word referred to Jesus.

It does and it is Written in the Bible. Therefore, why do we need extra teaching that Christ never provided?

and teach it. Of course you should listen to PAUL but a Pope thousands of years later is just nonsense.
Why?

No, the question is why should we?
'Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account...'

I agree here. You should submit to those you make your authority. The RCC is not my authority. The Word of God is.

The only thing left of Paul is his teaching in scripture, hence, that is the authority.
These are the kind of assertions that need to be called out because they're actual;y pretty huge assumptions.

It is an assertion that Paul's teachings are in the Bible and no where else? I think that is plain. It is you that should provide reason why we should teach outside the scriptures and why we need more improvement and teaching from them. You would think if there was more to it, Christ would have given it to the apostles.

Jesus is the Word and He is God, the Bible is the Word and the voice of Christ.
So is the Bible Jesus?
Jesus = Word, Word = Bible, ergo Jesus = Bible?

Almost. The Bible is the voice of Christ through the Holy Ghost.

That sounds more like Satanic cult nonsense. Replace God with a book, ay?
Anyway, the word of the Lord is more than just the Bible.

Oh, I agree. What makes you think you can go outside the Word that Jesus has given?

No man is. Stop blabbing that Satanic cult nonsense.
Where did Dogknox say that, outside of your own imagination?

All over the place. One who knows His Bible and considers it the authority os things about Jesus and His teachings would see that.

No, they chose to listen to the man Christ chose to give the word.
Paul SPOKE to them, you know. It's not like he sat there mutely scribbling on paper for them to read. They listened to the oral teachings Paul gave them.

What kind of point is that? Paul's teachings are in the Bible and He was directly influenced by Christ.

They are noble for listen to the very man who would have His teachings in the Bible.
Yes, LISTENING to him, not reading him.

So, Paul is at the RCC still teaching? He has not died?

Are the Bereans teachings in the Bible? I think not. Is the Popes teachings in the Bible? I think not.
Think a little harder, mkay?

Whatever that suppose to mean. Answer the questions. Is the Popes words canon? Is the Bereans teachings in the canon?

Does the Bible say listen to men outside the scriptures? Nope!
2 Timothy 2
'and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.'

If we read further in that chapter we will see HIS teachings. Not some others teachings, HIS.

What a distort of the Word of God.
He's actually spot-on, and it's necessary that he say things like this because I've often heard people try to submit that the Bereans were more noble for believing sola scriptura, which could not be further from the truth.

I did not claim that and you nor him have made your points through scripture. See you want to use scripture but then claim it is not the authority. If it is not the authority, why do we need it at all? Really, we could just all be inspired or a sucession of people would be. We it need for direction in righteousness, can a man offer that? I have not seen one.

You should be ashamed of yourself. Paul was teachings the Word in the Bible because his teachings are in it.
Prove it.

Prove Pauls teachings are not in the Bible. Seriously man.

No Pope is. No other churches teachings are.
lol, that's slightly incoherent, isn't it?

Umm. Let's see....Is any Pope's teachings in the Bible? In the books of men, the following titles are commonly used with reference to a man: "Pope," "Holy Father," "Vicar of Christ," "Sovereign Pontiff." All of these are titles that rightly belong only to the Lord Jesus Christ and to God the Father.

Depends who you think that church is.
I'd say that there's really only two serious contenders.

Who is that? I'd one is, anyone man, woman, and child who believes in Christ as Lord and Savior.

It sure is not the Roman Catholic church.
Assertion.

It is an assertion that the RCC claims it is. Show it is.

Some people in the Roman Catholic are the church but the Pope today and the RCC today is not that church.
Assertion.

Nope. Fact Jack.

They are the whore of Babylon.
Assertion.

Ok, Let's look at that Whore.
"And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour" Is not the RCC arryaed with scarlet and purple? Yes it is.
"and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls"
Is not the RCC one of the richest institutes in the world? Is not the Pope arrayed in Jewels and gold? Yes they are.
"having a golden cup in her hand"
Is not the insignia of the RCC a woman with a golden cup? Yes it is.
"And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth." Does Rome sit on seven mountains? Yes it does.
"And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus" Who has killed many Christians they called against the church? The RCC.

Yeah, because His real church are every single Christian who listens to the Word He has given and not some man teaching outside of it.
If you say the church is every single Christian who listens to the word, may I ask how you interpret this parable:
"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net which was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind; when it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into vessels but threw away the bad. So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth."

Yes, great verse. People call themselves Christian and are in the net but they claim falsely. Men have made choices who was good and bad, not their position to make. The angels will come and make that decision at the end of the age.

Why? The Bible and the Holy Ghost.
As long as you don't restrict it to the Holy Spirit and just the Bible, this is actually more or less true.

That is what I am claiming. The Holy Ghost and The Bible strictly.

Scriptures teach.. "Jesus is always with his Church to the end of the world" thus his TEACHING Church never, ever needs to be restored!

It needs no restoring. True Christains are passing that Word and Gods will is being done.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Dogknox
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6/10/2013 3:00:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Harbinger Scripture PROPHESY proves you are WRONG!! First..
Luke 1:46
And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me"
holy is his name.
50 His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.


When this PROPHESY left Marys mouth.. Mary' family started and to this day it continues! The "FRON NOW ON" tells you Mary' the GENERATIONAL family started!
Harbinger You are NOT in Mary' family, your roots do not go back two thousand years to Mary... THUS.. Clearly; "Mary is NOT your mother!"
Harbinger You do not have roots back to the "FROM NOW ON"!
Harbinger Mary is NOT your mother so; Jesus cannot be your BROTHER!! It is JUST THIS SIMPLE!!

Mary is NOT your mother so God is NOT he CANNOT be your father! And it is just this simple!
Harbinger You are forced to reject the scriptures!
You MUST reject this PROPHESY from the scriptures to remain in your protest against Jesus' Holy Church!

NEXT this PROPHESY.. You must also reject
2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them"bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.

The "De-Formers" came from among the Catholic Church! The Catholic Church did not.. come from among the "De-Formers"! The Prophesy can only work in ONE Direction..
there will be false teachers among you.

Martin Luther taught against the scriptures.. He taught "Reject the CHURCH, all man needs is the scriptures"! Martin Luther was AMONG Catholic's, he was a Catholic Priest, The PROPHESY points at him.. he was truly a False Teacher!

Scriptures teach.. "The Church is Holy"!
Scriptures teach.. "The Church is BLAMELESS"!
Scriptures teach.. "Listen to the Church"!
Scriptures teach.. "The Church is the Pillar and foundation of TRUTH"!
Scriptures teach.. "Jesus loves the CHURCH"!
Scriptures teach.. "The CHURCH is his Body"!
Scriptures teach.. "Jesus died for the CHURCH"!
Scriptures teach.. "Jesus is ALWAYS with the CHURCH to the end of time"!

Harbinger You have Placed the salvation of you soul in the teaching of the False Teacher, Martin Luther! You believe; "Scriptures ALONE save" but to believe this you MUST REJECT the scriptures, just as your "False teacher" Martin Luther had to do!!
WAIT... It continues.. verse #2...
2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.

Harbinger The Prophesy only works in the one direction.. The "De-Formers" are False teachers... Thus the Holy Blameless Catholic Church is the "Way Of Truth"!

The Prophesy also proves.. because the Prophesy can only work in the one direction.. All the prodagy of the "De-Formers" all who believe the teaching of "Faith ALONE" and "Scriptures ALONE" are NOT "the way of TRUTH"!

The Catholic Church is Two Thousand years Old...
She made the Bible.. The Bible came AFTER the Church!
The Church Jesus formed brought salvation to all the world.. For the first SIXTEEN HUNDRED Years there were few Bibles.. Church TAUGHT about Jesus!

Dogknox
Harbinger
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6/10/2013 3:27:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/10/2013 3:00:16 PM, Dogknox wrote:

No Biblical source. No proof. All assertion. Dogknox, Jesus Christ told to us to always have a reason for why we believe the way we do. None of yours are backed by scripture. It is backed by mere assertion by men. Why don't get out of the church who has graven images they bow and kiss, that is condemend. My church not one graven image nor the cross with fake Christs on it. God is a jealous God. What made Pagan Rome, Pagan? They had false idols of graven images, did the RCC change that, nope, not really. They simply converted them to apostles and Mary. Mary was not Catholic and it is a flat out lie to say so. Has Protestant factions ever went around killing other Christians? No, who did? The Roman Catholics did. They have been since their inception by the Roman Government(they would now if they could without war), What Christian church would come out the gate by killing people who also believe in the same God they do? IDK, someone who is not what they say, meaning Christian.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
TULIP
Posts: 398
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6/10/2013 3:42:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/10/2013 3:27:43 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/10/2013 3:00:16 PM, Dogknox wrote:

No Biblical source. No proof. All assertion. Dogknox, Jesus Christ told to us to always have a reason for why we believe the way we do. None of yours are backed by scripture. It is backed by mere assertion by men. Why don't get out of the church who has graven images they bow and kiss, that is condemend. My church not one graven image nor the cross with fake Christs on it. God is a jealous God. What made Pagan Rome, Pagan? They had false idols of graven images, did the RCC change that, nope, not really. They simply converted them to apostles and Mary. Mary was not Catholic and it is a flat out lie to say so. Has Protestant factions ever went around killing other Christians? No, who did? The Roman Catholics did. They have been since their inception by the Roman Government(they would now if they could without war), What Christian church would come out the gate by killing people who also believe in the same God they do? IDK, someone who is not what they say, meaning Christian.

It's saddening to know that Catholics hold to these traditions and beliefs all because a man told them. They don't cling to scripture and that's wrong. They wear a cross with a person on it to demonstrate Jesus, but Jesus isn't dead He's alive! Maybe they don't know that. And your absolutely right it is pagan worship. :/ so sad... Just continue to pray..
"We conclude that our salvation is of The Lord. He is the One who regenerates us. Those whom He regenerates come to Christ. Without regeneration no one will ever come to Christ. With regeneration no one will ever reject Him. God's saving grace effects what He intends to effect by it. ~ R. C. Sproul
Harbinger
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6/10/2013 3:53:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/10/2013 3:42:33 PM, TULIP wrote:
At 6/10/2013 3:27:43 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/10/2013 3:00:16 PM, Dogknox wrote:

No Biblical source. No proof. All assertion. Dogknox, Jesus Christ told to us to always have a reason for why we believe the way we do. None of yours are backed by scripture. It is backed by mere assertion by men. Why don't get out of the church who has graven images they bow and kiss, that is condemend. My church not one graven image nor the cross with fake Christs on it. God is a jealous God. What made Pagan Rome, Pagan? They had false idols of graven images, did the RCC change that, nope, not really. They simply converted them to apostles and Mary. Mary was not Catholic and it is a flat out lie to say so. Has Protestant factions ever went around killing other Christians? No, who did? The Roman Catholics did. They have been since their inception by the Roman Government(they would now if they could without war), What Christian church would come out the gate by killing people who also believe in the same God they do? IDK, someone who is not what they say, meaning Christian.

It's saddening to know that Catholics hold to these traditions and beliefs all because a man told them. They don't cling to scripture and that's wrong. They wear a cross with a person on it to demonstrate Jesus, but Jesus isn't dead He's alive! Maybe they don't know that. And your absolutely right it is pagan worship. :/ so sad... Just continue to pray..

Indeed TULIP. I do not hate them, I want to open their eyes to Christ's real message. Indeed, pray for them.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Dogknox
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6/10/2013 4:04:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/10/2013 3:27:43 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/10/2013 3:00:16 PM, Dogknox wrote:

No Biblical source. No proof. All assertion. Dogknox, Jesus Christ told to us to always have a reason for why we believe the way we do. None of yours are backed by scripture. It is backed by mere assertion by men. Why don't get out of the church who has graven images they bow and kiss, that is condemend. My church not one graven image nor the cross with fake Christs on it. God is a jealous God. What made Pagan Rome, Pagan? They had false idols of graven images, did the RCC change that, nope, not really. They simply converted them to apostles and Mary. Mary was not Catholic and it is a flat out lie to say so. Has Protestant factions ever went around killing other Christians? No, who did? The Roman Catholics did. They have been since their inception by the Roman Government(they would now if they could without war), What Christian church would come out the gate by killing people who also believe in the same God they do? IDK, someone who is not what they say, meaning Christian.

I reply: You must reject the scriptures to say what you say..
Scriptures.. "My flesh is real food, my Blood is real drink!"
Christians have always eaten the flesh of Jesus!
Christians have always believed the words of Jesus!

Ignatius of Antioch was a student of the Apostle John!
He said..
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

Harbinger NO scriptures say.. "Symbolic Communion!"

Jesus said.. GOD SAID.."This is my body" as he held up bread!

Augustine is CHRISTIAN..
He said..
"Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, "This is my body" [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands" (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).

Christians have always believed the scriptures..Jews are NOT CHRISTIAN!!
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

Harbinger began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
The reason you reject Jesus is you lack faith in him!
You do not believe in Jesus!
You reject the words of Jesus as LIES!

Christians have faith.. we believe in Jesus, our God can take any formed he wants to take.. "Fire" yes! The form of "Smoke or even a Dove" YES!
MY God the God of the Christian can even take the form of a MAN.. any form he takes is okay to any Christian! YES even the form of ordinary BREAD!

Dogknox
Dogknox
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6/10/2013 4:15:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/10/2013 3:42:33 PM, TULIP wrote:
At 6/10/2013 3:27:43 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/10/2013 3:00:16 PM, Dogknox wrote:

No Biblical source. No proof. All assertion. Dogknox, Jesus Christ told to us to always have a reason for why we believe the way we do. None of yours are backed by scripture. It is backed by mere assertion by men. Why don't get out of the church who has graven images they bow and kiss, that is condemend. My church not one graven image nor the cross with fake Christs on it. God is a jealous God. What made Pagan Rome, Pagan? They had false idols of graven images, did the RCC change that, nope, not really. They simply converted them to apostles and Mary. Mary was not Catholic and it is a flat out lie to say so. Has Protestant factions ever went around killing other Christians? No, who did? The Roman Catholics did. They have been since their inception by the Roman Government(they would now if they could without war), What Christian church would come out the gate by killing people who also believe in the same God they do? IDK, someone who is not what they say, meaning Christian.

It's saddening to know that Catholics hold to these traditions and beliefs all because a man told them. They don't cling to scripture and that's wrong. They wear a cross with a person on it to demonstrate Jesus, but Jesus isn't dead He's alive! Maybe they don't know that. And your absolutely right it is pagan worship. ://so sad... Just continue to pray..

1 Corinthians 11:2
I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you.

Catholics believe the scriptures and the TRADITIONS passed on from the Apostles!

TULIP You have your traditions.. "Scriptures ALONE" is a tradition passed on by you!
This teaching is NOT found in the scriptures!
The teaching of; "Don't need Church all man needs is the scriptures" first appeared Sixteen Hundred years AFTER Jesus! It is a MAN MADE TRADITION!!
It is the work of the Heretic, Martin Luther a, False TEACHER!

Same with the TEACHING of "All Man needs is Faith ALONE" this also is not found in the scriptures.. This teaching sends many protestant souls to Satan!

Catholics are IN the Body of Jesus, only the Catholic Church is two thousand years old. Only the Catholic Church has roots back to Jesus!
Peter the Apostle is Jesus' first Shepherd!
The Church Jesus is ALWAYS with to the very end of the world, is the Holy Catholic Church!
Your thousands and thousands of man made churches reject the scriptures otherwise you would be Catholics!

Dogknox
Harbinger
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6/10/2013 4:18:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/10/2013 4:04:15 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 6/10/2013 3:27:43 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/10/2013 3:00:16 PM, Dogknox wrote:

No Biblical source. No proof. All assertion. Dogknox, Jesus Christ told to us to always have a reason for why we believe the way we do. None of yours are backed by scripture. It is backed by mere assertion by men. Why don't get out of the church who has graven images they bow and kiss, that is condemend. My church not one graven image nor the cross with fake Christs on it. God is a jealous God. What made Pagan Rome, Pagan? They had false idols of graven images, did the RCC change that, nope, not really. They simply converted them to apostles and Mary. Mary was not Catholic and it is a flat out lie to say so. Has Protestant factions ever went around killing other Christians? No, who did? The Roman Catholics did. They have been since their inception by the Roman Government(they would now if they could without war), What Christian church would come out the gate by killing people who also believe in the same God they do? IDK, someone who is not what they say, meaning Christian.

I reply: You must reject the scriptures to say what you say..

When you start using scriptures then I will reply to them. I will not reply to man outside the scriptures. Why should I? I shouldn't, If I did, then I would have to listen to anyone who claims to be Christian.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
TULIP
Posts: 398
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6/10/2013 4:28:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/10/2013 4:18:08 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/10/2013 4:04:15 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 6/10/2013 3:27:43 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/10/2013 3:00:16 PM, Dogknox wrote:

No Biblical source. No proof. All assertion. Dogknox, Jesus Christ told to us to always have a reason for why we believe the way we do. None of yours are backed by scripture. It is backed by mere assertion by men. Why don't get out of the church who has graven images they bow and kiss, that is condemend. My church not one graven image nor the cross with fake Christs on it. God is a jealous God. What made Pagan Rome, Pagan? They had false idols of graven images, did the RCC change that, nope, not really. They simply converted them to apostles and Mary. Mary was not Catholic and it is a flat out lie to say so. Has Protestant factions ever went around killing other Christians? No, who did? The Roman Catholics did. They have been since their inception by the Roman Government(they would now if they could without war), What Christian church would come out the gate by killing people who also believe in the same God they do? IDK, someone who is not what they say, meaning Christian.

I reply: You must reject the scriptures to say what you say..

When you start using scriptures then I will reply to them. I will not reply to man outside the scriptures. Why should I? I shouldn't, If I did, then I would have to listen to anyone who claims to be Christian.

Amen to that!!
"We conclude that our salvation is of The Lord. He is the One who regenerates us. Those whom He regenerates come to Christ. Without regeneration no one will ever come to Christ. With regeneration no one will ever reject Him. God's saving grace effects what He intends to effect by it. ~ R. C. Sproul
TULIP
Posts: 398
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6/10/2013 4:40:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/10/2013 4:15:39 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 6/10/2013 3:42:33 PM, TULIP wrote:
At 6/10/2013 3:27:43 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/10/2013 3:00:16 PM, Dogknox wrote:

No Biblical source. No proof. All assertion. Dogknox, Jesus Christ told to us to always have a reason for why we believe the way we do. None of yours are backed by scripture. It is backed by mere assertion by men. Why don't get out of the church who has graven images they bow and kiss, that is condemend. My church not one graven image nor the cross with fake Christs on it. God is a jealous God. What made Pagan Rome, Pagan? They had false idols of graven images, did the RCC change that, nope, not really. They simply converted them to apostles and Mary. Mary was not Catholic and it is a flat out lie to say so. Has Protestant factions ever went around killing other Christians? No, who did? The Roman Catholics did. They have been since their inception by the Roman Government(they would now if they could without war), What Christian church would come out the gate by killing people who also believe in the same God they do? IDK, someone who is not what they say, meaning Christian.

It's saddening to know that Catholics hold to these traditions and beliefs all because a man told them. They don't cling to scripture and that's wrong. They wear a cross with a person on it to demonstrate Jesus, but Jesus isn't dead He's alive! Maybe they don't know that. And your absolutely right it is pagan worship. ://so sad... Just continue to pray..

1 Corinthians 11:2
I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you.

Catholics believe the scriptures and the TRADITIONS passed on from the Apostles!

TULIP You have your traditions.. "Scriptures ALONE" is a tradition passed on by you!
This teaching is NOT found in the scriptures!
The teaching of; "Don't need Church all man needs is the scriptures" first appeared Sixteen Hundred years AFTER Jesus! It is a MAN MADE TRADITION!!
It is the work of the Heretic, Martin Luther a, False TEACHER!

Same with the TEACHING of "All Man needs is Faith ALONE" this also is not found in the scriptures.. This teaching sends many protestant souls to Satan!

Catholics are IN the Body of Jesus, only the Catholic Church is two thousand years old. Only the Catholic Church has roots back to Jesus!
Peter the Apostle is Jesus' first Shepherd!
The Church Jesus is ALWAYS with to the very end of the world, is the Holy Catholic Church!
Your thousands and thousands of man made churches reject the scriptures otherwise you would be Catholics!

Dogknox

Oh, hello DogKnox. Been awhile since I've spoken to you. How are you doing sir?

Anyways, how often do you read your Bible? Or even study it?

Also I do believe that the man teaching on Sundays is someone that was placed there to give the message. But to just take what any man says without searching the scriptures ourselves to test to see what they were saying is true is dangerous grounds :/ I. John 4 tells us to test the spirits.. Talks about false teachers.. And you and I both know that there are false teachers.. Question is who though? You may think of a person who holds to scripture and believes that through faith in Christ is wrong, but what about believing that Jesus came to the world lived a perfect life died to save us from our sin and Gods wrath to give us life.. We (hopefully) can agree with this? Right? That's all that ultimately matters because scripture, church, people, and praying doesn't save us.. Jesus saved us! That's it!

Why do you seem to always pick a fight with another person who has a small similarity to your beliefs and not realize that there are cults out there that believe God to be some force or something?? Instead of arguing about the same things with the same type of people why not speak to someone who doesn't have a belief as you and be patient with them? Doesn't the Bible say, speak the truth in love? Love is patient? Whatever you do do to the Glory of God?

What is it that your doing?
"We conclude that our salvation is of The Lord. He is the One who regenerates us. Those whom He regenerates come to Christ. Without regeneration no one will ever come to Christ. With regeneration no one will ever reject Him. God's saving grace effects what He intends to effect by it. ~ R. C. Sproul
annanicole
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6/10/2013 4:54:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Dogknox, can you not call Mary "blessed" without venerating, adoring, and praying to her - and doing all the other things that Catholics have tagged on? Why don't you do just as the passage says? Call her "blessed among woman", and be done with her?

*****

I don't reject II Pet 2: 1 at all.

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of."

Why would I not believe that? It seems to me that the person most likely to reject it would be a Catholic, for Catholics try to make the ridiculous assertion that Peter was sitting there talking to people about something that would happen 1,500 years later! How absurd is that? The truth is that false teachers DID exist among early Christians, and they DID bring in damnable heresies. One heresy was the elevation of one bishop above another one - a kind-of a "bishop's bishop", also known as an archbishop. Peter never knew anything about any "archbishop", did he?

Yet what does Dogknox have to say? What is he forced to say? He says, "No, Peter, there weren't false teachers among them right then. The false teachers came along 1,500 years later!" Hear Dogknox:

"The PROPHESY points at him.. he (Martin Luther) was truly a False Teacher!"

That's impossible. Martin Luther was never "among you." Martin Luther was a member of an apostate church in the first place.

*****

"Howbeit the son by the handmaid is born after the flesh; but the son by the freewoman is born through promise. Which things contain an allegory: for these women are two covenants; one from mount Sinai, bearing children unto bondage, which is Hagar. Now this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia and answereth to the Jerusalem that now is: for she is in bondage with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother."

Dogknox, my spiritual mother is the new covenant, the Jerusalem which is above that is not in bondage, but is free. All this circuitous and rambling nonsense about "Mary is our mother" is just a bunch of superstitious popish pontification. The Bible says the New Covenant, the gospel, is our mother - and when we obey the gospel, we are born again. Here's the difference:

Christian: mother is the Gospel, the new covenant
Catholic: mother is Mary

LOL @ some Catholic trying to say that "Mary is my mother, so Jesus is my brother." Jesus becomes our elder brother when we obey the gospel.

*****

The rest of the post is just Dogknox's usual popish pretentions and assertions, and does not warrant a reply.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Harbinger
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6/10/2013 5:45:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/10/2013 4:54:23 PM, annanicole wrote:

Why would I not believe that? It seems to me that the person most likely to reject it would be a Catholic, for Catholics try to make the ridiculous assertion that Peter was sitting there talking to people about something that would happen 1,500 years later! How absurd is that? The truth is that false teachers DID exist among early Christians, and they DID bring in damnable heresies. One heresy was the elevation of one bishop above another one - a kind-of a "bishop's bishop", also known as an archbishop. Peter never knew anything about any "archbishop", did he?

Great point.

Yet what does Dogknox have to say? What is he forced to say? He says, "No, Peter, there weren't false teachers among them right then. The false teachers came along 1,500 years later!" Hear Dogknox:

Another valid point ;)

"The PROPHESY points at him.. he (Martin Luther) was truly a False Teacher!"

That's impossible. Martin Luther was never "among you." Martin Luther was a member of an apostate church in the first place.

I know what you are saying and I agree. I think that the RCC is the apostate and Martin Luther was in the real church.

Christian: mother is the Gospel, the new covenant
Catholic: mother is Mary

Spot on.

LOL @ some Catholic trying to say that "Mary is my mother, so Jesus is my brother." Jesus becomes our elder brother when we obey the gospel.

I agree. Jesus is our brother, lol. No, Jesus is our Shepherd and Redeemer and God. Beyond a brother, my fellow Christians are brothers and sisters. Obviously anyone who claims Jesus is a brother is not my brother or sister, they do not know Jesus Christ in the first place.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Dogknox
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6/10/2013 8:23:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Question is who though? You may think of a person who holds to scripture and believes that through faith in Christ is wrong, but what about believing that Jesus came to the world lived a perfect life died to save us from our sin and Gods wrath to give us life.. We (hopefully) can agree with this? Right? That's all that ultimately matters because scripture, church, people, and praying doesn't save us.. Jesus saved us! That's it!

Jesus saves US YES..>> All who believe in Jesus are saved!
To believe IN Jesus you MUST believe the words of Jesus.. DUH!!
TULIP Jesus wrote the scriptures! Rejecting the scriptures is NOT believing in Jesus!

Rejecting the scriptures is NOT having Faith In Jesus!.. it is just this simple!

All who do NOT accept the words of Jesus>>REJECT JESUS!
48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

TULIP Do you see it (above) You do not have Faith in Jesus by not accepting the scriptures! fact is you CONDEMN yourself!! the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

NOW..
TULIP now that you understand where I am coming from, you know I am a Catholic, you will understand why I say.. "You do NOT believe in Jesus, you reject the scriptures!"
Catholic' are CHRISTIANS.. Christians are Christ Followers: We believe the words of Jesus!

YOU REJECT Jesus!
Example.. These people (below) are NOT Christian!
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
I could easily substitute your name..
52 Then TULIP began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

You reject the words of Jesus as LIES from the mouth of God!

Christians eat the flesh of Jesus we HAVE ALWAYS eatten the flesh of Jesus!
Ignatius of Antioch was a student of the Apostle John!
He said..
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

SCRIPTURE... 53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

TULIP See the verse 54 (above).. does it remind you of this verse.. (below)
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

NO scriptures say.. "Symbolic Communion!"

Jesus said.. GOD SAID.."This is my body" as he held up bread!

Augustine is CHRISTIAN..
He said..
"Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, "This is my body" [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands" (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).

Christians are BELIEVERS because they do NOT reject the scriptures!

This is a start... I will continue to point at you and the scriptures you MUST outright reject so you can stay in your protest against Jesus and his Holy Church!
Dogknox
Posts: 5,078
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6/10/2013 9:09:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
annanicole IF you were "IN the Body Of Jesus" then Mary would in deed be your mother!
As it is you are motherless.. You claim the Gospel is your mother..?
1) You would have to believe the words of Jesus first... Don't you think!
2) Saying Jesus lied as you do.. "The Church is NOT blameless" seems to prove my point!

annanicole I believe the Church is BLAMELESS because; God says it is and because I don't have to make any excuses for NOT being IN the Holy Catholic Body of Jesus!

annanicole You believe opposite to what Christians believe... You are not Christian or all the Early Church was not Christian.. It is just this simple!
Your words.. "I don't accept any of what the Early Church said, they are not scriptures"!
BUT..
annanicolebut you have proved to reject the scriptures also.. or twist them at best!

FACTS CAN'T change... "You are in Man made church trying to RESTORE back to Jesus a church you believe FAILED!"
Scriptures say to you.. "Jesus is ALWAYS with his Church to the end of time"!
They say.. "The Holy Spirit is GUIDING the Church forever"!
They say.. "The Church is Holy and Blameless"!
They say.. "The CHURCH is the body of Jesus"!

You believe against the words of God.. to you the words of God LIE...You believe "the Body of Jesus failed, Jesus left his body his Holy body is to be BLAMED!"

I can go on.. but as it is, I am sure you get my point.
You are right or the scriptures are right.. you both are opposed!!
Dogknox
Posts: 5,078
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6/11/2013 11:28:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
TULIP I add.. You said... Jesus died to save us from our sin and Gods wrath to give us life.

YES Jesus died for all men.. But not all people are saved..
Romans 6:8
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

TULIP Baptism ADDS Christians to the "resurrected Jesus!"
To DIE with Christ you must be Baptized!
1 Peter 3:21
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also"not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

No one can die twice.. IF you are IN the Resurrected Christthen you have died!! Being IN the Resurrected Christ means you can't die again!

TULIP Peter "ADDED 3000" to the Body of the resurrected Jesus the first day of Pentecost by >> BAPTISM!
Acts 2:40
With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.


You reject the words of God... You wrongfully believe "Baptism is only symbolic" ! To be part of the "US" to be CHRISTIAN means you have to "Believe in Jesus.. Believe HIS WORDS"!
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/11/2013 11:35:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 11:28:47 AM, Dogknox wrote:
TULIP I add.. You said... Jesus died to save us from our sin and Gods wrath to give us life.

YES Jesus died for all men.. But not all people are saved..
Romans 6:8
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

TULIP Baptism ADDS Christians to the "resurrected Jesus!"
To DIE with Christ you must be Baptized!
1 Peter 3:21
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also"not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

No one can die twice.. IF you are IN the Resurrected Christthen you have died!! Being IN the Resurrected Christ means you can't die again!

TULIP Peter "ADDED 3000" to the Body of the resurrected Jesus the first day of Pentecost by >> BAPTISM!
Acts 2:40
With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.


You reject the words of God... You wrongfully believe "Baptism is only symbolic" ! To be part of the "US" to be CHRISTIAN means you have to "Believe in Jesus.. Believe HIS WORDS"!

Dogknox Tulip is Christian and you telling someone they are not shows who is Christian and who is not. Just shut-up. I will address you every time you spout that devil nonsense. Go address my remarks to you. I have been waiting.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."