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Christian Universalism Part 2

rjohnson741
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6/7/2013 3:33:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
'And these shall go away into everlasting[G166 Aionios] punishment; but the righteous into life eternal[G166 Aionios]' Matthew 25:46.

'Who shall be punished with everlasting[G166 Aionios] destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power' 2Thessalonians 1:9.

The english word for everlasting or eternal in Matthew 25:46 and 2Thessalonians 1:9 is translated for the Greek word aionios[G166]. Aionios is the adjective form of the word aion[G165]. Here is the definition of aion from Strong's Concordance and the Blueletter Bible Lexicon. Aion[G165]:
1) forever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

Wait a minute. Are these lexicons saying this little four letter Greek word has all these meanings? Two thing need to be noted here:
1. Those lexicons have aion meaning both age and eternal. How can a word be it's own antonym? In other words, how can aion mean both age and eternal, when age and eternal have opposite meanings? That's against the laws of grammer.

2. How can aion mean world, age, and eternity when the Greeks have specific words for those english words. Case in point:

The Greek word for world is kosmos[G2889] not aion.

The Greek word for age is aion[G165].

The Greek words to describe eternal are ou[G3756] and telos[G5056] which means no end in describing the duration of God's kingdom in Luke 1:33.

If the Bible writers wanted to convey the idea of eternal in Matthew 25:46 and 2Thessalonians 1:9, they would have used the Greek words 'ou telos' instead of the Greek word aionios.
So aion and it's adjective form aionios always mean age, never eternal. A better translation of aion would be the english word eon or the alternate dictionary spelling aeon, because eon has an adjective form where as age does not. For instance, the adjective form of the Greek word aion is aionios. Likewise the adjective form of the english word eon is eonian. Also get a good dictionary that traces the orgin of words and look up the english words eternal and eon. You will find eternal is traced back to Latin, and you will find eon, which means age or a period of time, is traced back to Greek. The Bible of course was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, not Latin.
And one other point: The Greek word aion and the alternate dictionary spelling of the english word eon(aeon) almost spell the same, aion--aeon. That's because many of the letters of the Greek alphabet are the same as the letters of the English alphabet.
But believers in eternal torment object to this. They say that if aion and it's adjective aionios means age or eon, then not only does the punishment and torment of unbelievers come to an end, but the eternal/aionios life of the believers must come to an end as well, since the same word aionios is used to describe the punishment and life of both groups in Matthew 25:46. I will address that objection in my next post. Blessings.
ExsurgeDomine
Posts: 176
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6/7/2013 3:47:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
May I ask how you think these verses ought to be translated:

'but is now disclosed and through the prophetic writings is made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal (aionios) God, to bring about the obedience of faith'

'who alone has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal (aionios) dominion. Amen.'

'And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal (aionios) glory in Christ, will himself restore, establish, and strengthen you.'
rjohnson741
Posts: 215
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6/7/2013 4:41:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Believers in eternal torment say that if the Greek word aion means age or eon, then not only does the punishment and torment of unbelievers come to an end, but the eternal life of believers must also come to an end, since the same Greek word aionios is used to describe both groups in Matthew 25:46. They are in fact correct. The eternal/aionios life of believers mentioned in Matthew 25:46 and John 3:16 does in fact come to an end. That's because believers living forever is not contingent on eternal/aionios life. Believers and everyone else will live forever because they will be made alive or vivified[G2227 zoopoieo] and put on immortality[G110 athanasia] at The Consummation(1Corinthians 15:22-23; 1Corinthians 15:53-55). Also if receiving eternal(aionios) life means living forever, why do believers still die? Eternal(aionios) life is the special life that God gives to believers to enjoy now---'And this is life eternal, that, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent' John 17:3. Believers get to enjoy a life of spiritual blessings and a personal relationship with God now and in the ages or eons to come. Here's something else we need to consider concerning the english words eternal an forever:
Revelation 11:15 says Jesus Christ will reign forever[G165] and ever[G165]. But 1Corinthians 15:24-28 says Jesus Christ reigns until He put all enemies under His feet, then delivers the kingdom to God and subjects Himself and everyone to God.
Well which is it? Does Jesus Christ reign forever, or does Jesus Christ reign until He puts all enemies under His feet and delivers the kingdom to God? There would be no discrepency here if the translators had translated aion as age or eon instead of eternal or forever. A literal translation clears up this discrepency. A literal translation reads:
'He shall be reigning for the eons of the eons' Revelation 11:15 Concordant Literal New Testament. Read also Young's Literal Translation. Jesus Christ reigns for at least two or more ages or eons. After these ages or eons end, Jesus Christ delivers the kingdom to God, subjects Himself and everyone else to God at The Consummation(1Corinthians 15:22-28).
Revelation 20:10 says the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are tormented day and night forever[G165] and ever[G165]. And means plus or in addition to. Now if forever means eternity in this passage, what pray tell does 'and ever' mean? How can you add to eternity? 'Eternity' and 'eternity'? 'Two eternities'? Once again, a literal translation clears up this discrepency:
'And they shalll be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons' Revelation 20:10 Concordant Literal New Testament also Young's Literal Translation.
They will be tormented for at least two ages or eons. The duration of these ages or eons is not specified here. So the torment or punishment of the wicked and unbelievers is not eternal. Once their torment or punishment comes to an end, they will be made alive or vivified[G227 zoopoieo] and put on immortality[G110 athanasia] at The Consummation(1Corinthians 15:22-28; 1Corinthians 15:53-55). This means that the torment or punishment of the wicked and unbelievers in the lake of fire is age-during or eonian, not eternal. If aion and it's adjective form aionios had been correctly translated as age or eon, the purpose of God's wrath, judgment, torment or punishment of those in the lake of fire would become clear. The Bible teaches Universal Salvation:

'So then as through one transgression there RESULTED CONDEMNATION TO ALL MEN, even so through the one act of righteousness there RESULTED JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE TO ALL MEN' Romans 5:18 NASB. Blessings.
rjohnson741
Posts: 215
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6/7/2013 5:49:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 3:47:31 PM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
May I ask how you think these verses ought to be translated:

'but is now disclosed and through the prophetic writings is made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal (aionios) God, to bring about the obedience of faith'

'who alone has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal (aionios) dominion. Amen.'

'And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal (aionios) glory in Christ, will himself restore, establish, and strengthen you.'

Hi ExsurgeDomine. You make a valid and logical point. You're saying that if aion and it's adjective form aionios always mean age or eon then the life and glory of God will come to an end since aionios is used to describe God in those verses. Let's take a look at 1Timothy 1:17 which also uses aion to describe God:

'Now unto the King eternal [G165 aion], immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory forever[G165 aion] and ever[G165 aion]' 1Timothy 1:17.

Notice the words I bolded in 1Timothy 1:17. These words I bolded are making statements of descriptions, not statements of limitation. Those words I bolded are describing God, not limiting God. In other words,

God is eternal(G165 aion].
God is immortal.
God is invisible..
God is wise.
I could go on and on with ther word to describe God, such as

God is Creator.
God is loving.
God is merciful. etc. etc, etc.
God is also describe as being the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. Does that limit God to to be the God of just these three people? Of course not. In 1Timothy 1:17 God is call the eonian[G165] God. That of course does not limit God to being just the eonian God. God of course is also the immortal, invisible and wise God as 1Timothy 1:17 clearly states. Why is God call the eonian God? God is the eonian God because He created the eons(Hebrews 1:2). My comments here is also applied to those passages you quoted.
The Bible describes God as being eternal without using the english word eternal:

God has neither beginning of days nor end of life(Hebrews 7:3).

God is the Alpha and Omega the beginning and the end(Revelation 1:8; Revelation 1:11; Revelation 22:13).

God's years have no end(Psalm 102:27).

These passages describe God as eternal without using the english word eternal. The Greek word aion and it's adjective form aionios always means eon or age, and never eternal or forever. Blessings.
rjohnson741
Posts: 215
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6/7/2013 7:30:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Here are the literal word for word translations of Matthew 25:41, Matthew 25:46, 2Thessalonians 1:9, Jude 1:7, and Revelation 20:10:

'Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, Go from Me, you cursed, into fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers' Matthew 25:41 CLNT.

'And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian' Matthew 25:46 CLNT.

'As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian' Jude 1:7 CLNT.

'And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons' Revelation 20:10 CLNT.

CLNT--Concordant Literal New Testament.
rjohnson741
Posts: 215
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6/8/2013 1:58:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 7:30:32 PM, rjohnson741 wrote:
Here are the literal word for word translations of Matthew 25:41, Matthew 25:46, 2Thessalonians 1:9, Jude 1:7, and Revelation 20:10:

'Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, Go from Me, you cursed, into fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers' Matthew 25:41 CLNT.

'And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian' Matthew 25:46 CLNT.

'As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian' Jude 1:7 CLNT.

'And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons' Revelation 20:10 CLNT.

CLNT--Concordant Literal New Testament.

I forgot this one:

'Those who are not obeying the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ---who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength' 2Thessalonians 1:9 CLNT.

The Concordant Literal New Testament correctly translate the Greek words aion and it's adjective form ainios as eon and eonian.

This translation clearly shows that the punishment, torment, and destruction of the wicked and unbelievers is not forever, but comes to an end.
rjohnson741
Posts: 215
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6/9/2013 1:13:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/9/2013 9:24:32 AM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
I'll be honest, that's pretty convincing. I'll have to read up on it a little more.

Thanks ExsurgeDomine for being honest and objective. First of all, I do not know the Greek language, and of course, I am no Greek scholar, far from it. But with good study tools such as concordances, lexicons, and good dictionaries that trace the orgin of words, even the lay person can understand how the Bible writers were using the Greek words aion and aionios. Blessings.
rjohnson741
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6/11/2013 1:42:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The Greek word aion always mean age or eon, and never eternal. If that is true, we should really look at those scriptures that Universalists use to support the salvation of everyone. Here are some of them:

'Say unto God, How terrible art thou in thy works! through the greatness of thy power shall thine enemies submit themselves to thee. ALL THE EARTH SHALL WORSHIP THEE, AND SHALL SING TO THY NAME. SE'-LAH' Psalm 66:3-4 KJV.

'The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. ALL THY WORKS SHALL PRAISE THEE, O LORD; AND THY SAINTS SHALL BLESS THEE' Psalm 145:9-10 KJV.

'So then as through one transgression THERE RESULTED CONDEMNATION TO ALL MEN, even so through one act of righteousness THERE RESULTED JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE TO ALL MEN' Romans 5:18 NASB.

'As I live says the Lord, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD' Romans 14:11 NASB.

'For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. BUT EVERYMAN IN HIS OWN ORDER' 1Corinthians 15:22-23 KJV.

'Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, accordind to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together ALL THINGS IN CHRIST, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him' Ephesians 1:9-10 KJV.

'For it pleased the Father that in him SHOULD ALL FULNESS DWELL; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, BY HIM TO RECONCILE ALL THINGS TO HIMSELF; BY HIM, I SAY, WHETHER THEY BE THINGS IN EARTH, OR THINGS IN HEAVEN' Colossians 1:19-20 KJV.

'For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, WHO IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, specially of those that believe. THESE THINGS COMMAND AND TEACH' 1Timothy 4:10-11 KJV.

'AND EVERY CREATURE WHICH IS IN HEAVEN, AND ON THE EARTH, AND UNDER THE EARTH, AND SUCH AS ARE IN THE SEA, AND ALL THAT ARE IN THEM, HEARD I SAYING, BLESSING, AND HONOUR, AND GLORY, AND POWER, BE UNTO HIM THAT SITTETH UPON THE THRONE, AND UNTO THE LAMB FOREVER AND EVER' Revelation 5:13 KJV.

This is not an exhaustive list of scriptures that show the salvation of everyone. There are many more scriptures throughout the Bible that say so. The Bible clearly teaches Universal Salvation, not eternal torment.
rjohnson741
Posts: 215
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6/11/2013 4:30:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 3:33:32 PM, rjohnson741 wrote:
'And these shall go away into everlasting[G166 Aionios] punishment; but the righteous into life eternal[G166 Aionios]' Matthew 25:46.

'Who shall be punished with everlasting[G166 Aionios] destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power' 2Thessalonians 1:9.

The english word for everlasting or eternal in Matthew 25:46 and 2Thessalonians 1:9 is translated for the Greek word aionios[G166]. Aionios is the adjective form of the word aion[G165]. Here is the definition of aion from Strong's Concordance and the Blueletter Bible Lexicon. Aion[G165]:
1) forever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

Wait a minute. Are these lexicons saying this little four letter Greek word has all these meanings? Two thing need to be noted here:
1. Those lexicons have aion meaning both age and eternal. How can a word be it's own antonym? In other words, how can aion mean both age and eternal, when age and eternal have opposite meanings? That's against the laws of grammer.

2. How can aion mean world, age, and eternity when the Greeks have specific words for those english words. Case in point:

The Greek word for world is kosmos[G2889] not aion.

The Greek word for age is aion[G165].

The Greek words to describe eternal are ou[G3756] and telos[G5056] which means no end in describing the duration of God's kingdom in Luke 1:33.

If the Bible writers wanted to convey the idea of eternal in Matthew 25:46 and 2Thessalonians 1:9, they would have used the Greek words 'ou telos' instead of the Greek word aionios.
So aion and it's adjective form aionios always mean age, never eternal. A better translation of aion would be the english word eon or the alternate dictionary spelling aeon, because eon has an adjective form where as age does not. For instance, the adjective form of the Greek word aion is aionios. Likewise the adjective form of the english word eon is eonian. Also get a good dictionary that traces the orgin of words and look up the english words eternal and eon. You will find eternal is traced back to Latin, and you will find eon, which means age or a period of time, is traced back to Greek. The Bible of course was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, not Latin.
And one other point: The Greek word aion and the alternate dictionary spelling of the english word eon(aeon) almost spell the same, aion--aeon. That's because many of the letters of the Greek alphabet are the same as the letters of the English alphabet.
But believers in eternal torment object to this. They say that if aion and it's adjective aionios means age or eon, then not only does the punishment and torment of unbelievers come to an end, but the eternal/aionios life of the believers must come to an end as well, since the same word aionios is used to describe the punishment and life of both groups in Matthew 25:46. I will address that objection in my next post. Blessings.

Here is a dictionary definition of the english words eternal and eon:

Eternal---[[< L aeturnus]] 1without beginning or end; everlasting 2 always the same; unchanging 3 seeming never to stop.

Eon---[[<Gr aion, an age]] an extremely long indefinite period of time.

Both definitions are from Webster's New World Dictionary Fourth Edition.

As you can see, the english word eternal is traced back to the Latin word aeturnus. And the english word eon is actually traced back to the Greek word aion which means age!! The Bible manuscripts were written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek!!

Bear in mind, secular dictionaries have no religious or theological bias one way or another in defining eternal, eon, or any other word. Blessings.
rjohnson741
Posts: 215
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6/13/2013 2:14:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 1:42:24 PM, rjohnson741 wrote:
The Greek word aion always mean age or eon, and never eternal. If that is true, we should really look at those scriptures that Universalists use to support the salvation of everyone. Here are some of them:

'Say unto God, How terrible art thou in thy works! through the greatness of thy power shall thine enemies submit themselves to thee. ALL THE EARTH SHALL WORSHIP THEE, AND SHALL SING TO THY NAME. SE'-LAH' Psalm 66:3-4 KJV.

'The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. ALL THY WORKS SHALL PRAISE THEE, O LORD; AND THY SAINTS SHALL BLESS THEE' Psalm 145:9-10 KJV.

'So then as through one transgression THERE RESULTED CONDEMNATION TO ALL MEN, even so through one act of righteousness THERE RESULTED JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE TO ALL MEN' Romans 5:18 NASB.

'As I live says the Lord, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD' Romans 14:11 NASB.

'For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. BUT EVERYMAN IN HIS OWN ORDER' 1Corinthians 15:22-23 KJV.

'Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, accordind to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together ALL THINGS IN CHRIST, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him' Ephesians 1:9-10 KJV.

'For it pleased the Father that in him SHOULD ALL FULNESS DWELL; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, BY HIM TO RECONCILE ALL THINGS TO HIMSELF; BY HIM, I SAY, WHETHER THEY BE THINGS IN EARTH, OR THINGS IN HEAVEN' Colossians 1:19-20 KJV.

'For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, WHO IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, specially of those that believe. THESE THINGS COMMAND AND TEACH' 1Timothy 4:10-11 KJV.

'AND EVERY CREATURE WHICH IS IN HEAVEN, AND ON THE EARTH, AND UNDER THE EARTH, AND SUCH AS ARE IN THE SEA, AND ALL THAT ARE IN THEM, HEARD I SAYING, BLESSING, AND HONOUR, AND GLORY, AND POWER, BE UNTO HIM THAT SITTETH UPON THE THRONE, AND UNTO THE LAMB FOREVER AND EVER' Revelation 5:13 KJV.

This is not an exhaustive list of scriptures that show the salvation of everyone. There are many more scriptures throughout the Bible that say so. The Bible clearly teaches Universal Salvation, not eternal torment.
Harbinger
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6/13/2013 2:21:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You reject the power of the Holy Ghost who has influenced the KJV Bible. Instead you see fit to change the wording and distort that Word, just like these new translation that you probably use. They have took wording and actual important doctrine out. You may not know that. If you was a KJV user you would see the eternal Hell and punishment. It is clear. May I ask, what symbol is on your Bible? What does it look like on the cover?
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
stubs
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6/14/2013 12:19:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think that you make some very good point. I would like to point out that there are no perfect translations. For example you said the word kosmos means world. Well, yes that is in fact true, but it has a semantic range of world, universe, and mankind. Same with the word aion. It has a semantic range from age to eternal. I'm a little more lenient on the universalism stuff than most I would say, but that it something I thought was worth pointing out.
rjohnson741
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6/14/2013 1:02:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/14/2013 11:23:37 AM, medic0506 wrote:
How do universalists read Luke 16 and the story of Lazarus??

First of all, if you believe Luke 16 was a literal, physical event that actually happened, here are a few observations about the rich man and Lazarus:

1. The rich man is still called a Son.

2. The rich man as a Son asks the Father for mercy.

3. The rich man as a Son, has concern for his brothers.

4. The rich man has a physical body in hades(lifted up his eyes, cool my tongue).

In light of these observations here are a few questions:

1. The rich man has a physical body in hades. Does the rich man now have two physical bodies, one in hades, and one in the grave?

2. Are those in hades being eternally tormented still called Sons?

If you believe lazarus and the rich man are talking about their eternal destinies, then you believe there are millions, possibly billions of people being eternally tormented right now as we speak.

I contend Luke 16 is not talking about the eternal destiny of mankind.
I contend that Luke 16 is a parable describing the reversal of the spiritual condition between the pharisees, and Jews(the rich man) and the gentiles(lazarus).
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/14/2013 1:46:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Since we need to check wordings and change them maybe you should write your own Biblical translation and tell us what the Bible actually means.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
rjohnson741
Posts: 215
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6/14/2013 1:59:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/14/2013 1:46:34 PM, Harbinger wrote:
Since we need to check wordings and change them maybe you should write your own Biblical translation and tell us what the Bible actually means.

You didn't address any of my comments.

You say lazarus and the rich man is a literal, physical event that actually happened.

You say the rich man has a physical body in hell. So, does the rich man now have two physical bodies, one in hell and one in the grave?
Harbinger
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6/14/2013 2:09:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/14/2013 1:59:29 PM, rjohnson741 wrote:
At 6/14/2013 1:46:34 PM, Harbinger wrote:
Since we need to check wordings and change them maybe you should write your own Biblical translation and tell us what the Bible actually means.

You didn't address any of my comments.

You say lazarus and the rich man is a literal, physical event that actually happened.

You say the rich man has a physical body in hell. So, does the rich man now have two physical bodies, one in hell and one in the grave?

This was not my comment but I will address it.

We have a spiritual body as well my friend. And that spiritual body also requires manna and waters of life.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
rjohnson741
Posts: 215
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6/14/2013 2:34:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/14/2013 2:09:00 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/14/2013 1:59:29 PM, rjohnson741 wrote:
At 6/14/2013 1:46:34 PM, Harbinger wrote:
Since we need to check wordings and change them maybe you should write your own Biblical translation and tell us what the Bible actually means.

You didn't address any of my comments.

You say lazarus and the rich man is a literal, physical event that actually happened.

You say the rich man has a physical body in hell. So, does the rich man now have two physical bodies, one in hell and one in the grave?

This was not my comment but I will address it.

We have a spiritual body as well my friend. And that spiritual body also requires manna and waters of life.

So you're saying the rich man has a spiritual body in hell. When the rich man's physical body is resurrected from the grave(John 5:28-29) to face judgment at the white throne, he will then have a physical and spiritual body that will feel pain. This is utter nonsense. You are reading that assumption into Luke 16 to support your dogma of eternal torment.

People having a physical and spiritual body after they are resurrected is not only nonsense, it is unbiblical as well.
Eternal hell, and eternal torment are dark age doctrines of satan and demons that blaspheme the name of God. These doctrines should be cast onto the ash heap of gehenna where they belong.
Harbinger
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6/14/2013 2:43:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/14/2013 2:34:19 PM, rjohnson741 wrote:
At 6/14/2013 2:09:00 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/14/2013 1:59:29 PM, rjohnson741 wrote:
At 6/14/2013 1:46:34 PM, Harbinger wrote:
Since we need to check wordings and change them maybe you should write your own Biblical translation and tell us what the Bible actually means.

You didn't address any of my comments.

You say lazarus and the rich man is a literal, physical event that actually happened.

You say the rich man has a physical body in hell. So, does the rich man now have two physical bodies, one in hell and one in the grave?

This was not my comment but I will address it.

We have a spiritual body as well my friend. And that spiritual body also requires manna and waters of life.

So you're saying the rich man has a spiritual body in hell. When the rich man's physical body is resurrected from the grave(John 5:28-29) to face judgment at the white throne, he will then have a physical and spiritual body that will feel pain. This is utter nonsense. You are reading that assumption into Luke 16 to support your dogma of eternal torment.

So, we are not physical and spiritual right as we speak? It seems your spouting nonsense my friend. So, you actually get your physical body back after being in hell? Gives that scripture please.

People having a physical and spiritual body after they are resurrected is not only nonsense, it is unbiblical as well.
Eternal hell, and eternal torment are dark age doctrines of satan and demons that blaspheme the name of God. These doctrines should be cast onto the ash heap of gehenna where they belong.

Of course you cannot back any of your doctrine by the Bible, you need dictionaries and to reuse words. Hmm.. Honesty there. How about using a real Bible with straight forward language and accept what God has said. That is impossible though right?
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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6/14/2013 3:25:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/14/2013 1:02:44 PM, rjohnson741 wrote:
At 6/14/2013 11:23:37 AM, medic0506 wrote:
How do universalists read Luke 16 and the story of Lazarus??

First of all, if you believe Luke 16 was a literal, physical event that actually happened, here are a few observations about the rich man and Lazarus:

1. The rich man is still called a Son.

2. The rich man as a Son asks the Father for mercy.

3. The rich man as a Son, has concern for his brothers.

4. The rich man has a physical body in hades(lifted up his eyes, cool my tongue).

In light of these observations here are a few questions:

1. The rich man has a physical body in hades. Does the rich man now have two physical bodies, one in hades, and one in the grave?

I don't think we can quite grasp what it means to exist in spirit form, so though I am curious, I don't think it is meant for us to fully understand so I don't really have an answer for that. It appears though, that the spirit can experience anguish, unquenchable thirst, etc.

2. Are those in hades being eternally tormented still called Sons?

Apparently

If you believe lazarus and the rich man are talking about their eternal destinies, then you believe there are millions, possibly billions of people being eternally tormented right now as we speak.

That would be consistent with, "Narrow is the gate, and there are few that will find it".

I contend Luke 16 is not talking about the eternal destiny of mankind.
I contend that Luke 16 is a parable describing the reversal of the spiritual condition between the pharisees, and Jews(the rich man) and the gentiles(lazarus).

huh??
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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6/14/2013 3:40:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/14/2013 1:46:34 PM, Harbinger wrote:
Since we need to check wordings and change them maybe you should write your own Biblical translation and tell us what the Bible actually means.

All translations are interpretations. If you read anything other than the original Hebrew and Greek it's an interpretation.
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/14/2013 3:44:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/14/2013 3:40:08 PM, stubs wrote:
At 6/14/2013 1:46:34 PM, Harbinger wrote:
Since we need to check wordings and change them maybe you should write your own Biblical translation and tell us what the Bible actually means.

All translations are interpretations. If you read anything other than the original Hebrew and Greek it's an interpretation.

Only if you believe that the KJV was not an inspired translation. But let me guess, you do that very thing?
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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6/14/2013 3:47:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/14/2013 3:44:17 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/14/2013 3:40:08 PM, stubs wrote:
At 6/14/2013 1:46:34 PM, Harbinger wrote:
Since we need to check wordings and change them maybe you should write your own Biblical translation and tell us what the Bible actually means.

All translations are interpretations. If you read anything other than the original Hebrew and Greek it's an interpretation.

Only if you believe that the KJV was not an inspired translation. But let me guess, you do that very thing?

Yeah lets debate that. I would much rather do that than the old earth. Easy debate haha.
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/14/2013 3:48:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/14/2013 3:47:18 PM, stubs wrote:
At 6/14/2013 3:44:17 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/14/2013 3:40:08 PM, stubs wrote:
At 6/14/2013 1:46:34 PM, Harbinger wrote:
Since we need to check wordings and change them maybe you should write your own Biblical translation and tell us what the Bible actually means.

All translations are interpretations. If you read anything other than the original Hebrew and Greek it's an interpretation.

Only if you believe that the KJV was not an inspired translation. But let me guess, you do that very thing?

Yeah lets debate that. I would much rather do that than the old earth. Easy debate haha.

You jump around from topic to topic often? Is it typical here to just go on forums and challenge people and then do not offer nothing to the convo?
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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6/14/2013 3:50:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/14/2013 3:48:57 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/14/2013 3:47:18 PM, stubs wrote:
At 6/14/2013 3:44:17 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/14/2013 3:40:08 PM, stubs wrote:
At 6/14/2013 1:46:34 PM, Harbinger wrote:
Since we need to check wordings and change them maybe you should write your own Biblical translation and tell us what the Bible actually means.

All translations are interpretations. If you read anything other than the original Hebrew and Greek it's an interpretation.

Only if you believe that the KJV was not an inspired translation. But let me guess, you do that very thing?

Yeah lets debate that. I would much rather do that than the old earth. Easy debate haha.

You jump around from topic to topic often? Is it typical here to just go on forums and challenge people and then do not offer nothing to the convo?

Sorry man you're wrong on so many things I want to debate them all :P I would much rather do a debate then mess around in these forums.
rjohnson741
Posts: 215
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6/14/2013 4:00:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/14/2013 2:43:26 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/14/2013 2:34:19 PM, rjohnson741 wrote:
At 6/14/2013 2:09:00 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/14/2013 1:59:29 PM, rjohnson741 wrote:
At 6/14/2013 1:46:34 PM, Harbinger wrote:
Since we need to check wordings and change them maybe you should write your own Biblical translation and tell us what the Bible actually means.

You didn't address any of my comments.

You say lazarus and the rich man is a literal, physical event that actually happened.

You say the rich man has a physical body in hell. So, does the rich man now have two physical bodies, one in hell and one in the grave?

This was not my comment but I will address it.

We have a spiritual body as well my friend. And that spiritual body also requires manna and waters of life.

So you're saying the rich man has a spiritual body in hell. When the rich man's physical body is resurrected from the grave(John 5:28-29) to face judgment at the white throne, he will then have a physical and spiritual body that will feel pain. This is utter nonsense. You are reading that assumption into Luke 16 to support your dogma of eternal torment.

So, we are not physical and spiritual right as we speak? It seems your spouting nonsense my friend. So, you actually get your physical body back after being in hell? Gives that scripture please.

People having a physical and spiritual body after they are resurrected is not only nonsense, it is unbiblical as well.
Eternal hell, and eternal torment are dark age doctrines of satan and demons that blaspheme the name of God. These doctrines should be cast onto the ash heap of gehenna where they belong.

Of course you cannot back any of your doctrine by the Bible, you need dictionaries and to reuse words. Hmm.. Honesty there. How about using a real Bible with straight forward language and accept what God has said. That is impossible though right?

You are the one spouting nonsense and unbiblical doctrines. You are the one who believes the rich man will have two bodies at the white throne judgment.

And no, we do not have physical and spiritual bodies at the same time. We have physical bodies now. We become spiritual after we are resurrected and put on immortality at the Consummation:

'It is sown in a natural body, IT IS RAISED IN A SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body' 1Corinthian 15:44.

Howbeit THAT WAS NOT FIRST which is spiritual, but that which is natural; AND AFTERWARDS THAT WHICH IS SPIRITUAL' 1Corinthians 15:46.

Now here is scripture:

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves SHALL HEAR HIS VOICE, AND SHALL COME FORTH; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life: and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation' John 5:28-29.

This scripture clearly says the rich man and everyone else when they die are in the grave, not being burned alive in some torture chamber. John 5:28-29 says the wicked shall hear his voice and come forth from the grave not some mythical pagan hell.
The rich man and Lazarus is a parable, not a literal physical event. You are adding to scripture, and twisting that parable to support your unblical dogmas of eternal torment and eternal hell.
rjohnson741
Posts: 215
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6/14/2013 6:30:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/14/2013 3:25:42 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/14/2013 1:02:44 PM, rjohnson741 wrote:
At 6/14/2013 11:23:37 AM, medic0506 wrote:
How do universalists read Luke 16 and the story of Lazarus??

First of all, if you believe Luke 16 was a literal, physical event that actually happened, here are a few observations about the rich man and Lazarus:

1. The rich man is still called a Son.

2. The rich man as a Son asks the Father for mercy.

3. The rich man as a Son, has concern for his brothers.

4. The rich man has a physical body in hades(lifted up his eyes, cool my tongue).

In light of these observations here are a few questions:

1. The rich man has a physical body in hades. Does the rich man now have two physical bodies, one in hades, and one in the grave?

I don't think we can quite grasp what it means to exist in spirit form, so though I am curious, I don't think it is meant for us to fully understand so I don't really have an answer for that. It appears though, that the spirit can experience anguish, unquenchable thirst, etc.

2. Are those in hades being eternally tormented still called Sons?

Apparently

If you believe lazarus and the rich man are talking about their eternal destinies, then you believe there are millions, possibly billions of people being eternally tormented right now as we speak.

That would be consistent with, "Narrow is the gate, and there are few that will find it".

I contend Luke 16 is not talking about the eternal destiny of mankind.
I contend that Luke 16 is a parable describing the reversal of the spiritual condition between the pharisees, and Jews(the rich man) and the gentiles(lazarus).

huh??

So you believe God abandons, tortures and burns alive His Sons, whom he loves in an eternal prison house. What a sick, evil, cruel, preverted and twisted view christians have of God.
In Luke 16:25, the rich man is still called a Son, and this is how God deals with Sons:

'My Son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor faint when you are reproved by Him; For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every Son whom He receives' Hebrews 12:5-6 NASB.

That is how God deals with His disobedient sons or children. The torment of the rich man, who was still called a son, was chastening or disipline by God.

This is why I reject your unbiblical dogmas of eternal torment and eternal hell.