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God is Flawed: Adam, Noah and Jesus

AtheistExile
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12/1/2009 5:17:11 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
"God tells Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If this was the only way they could understand the difference between good and evil, how could they have known that it was wrong to disobey God and eat the fruit?" ~Laurie Lynn

Haven't you ever done something you regret? If so, how does that compare to eating a fruit from the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil"? If all sins are the same to God and all sins are disobedience to God, then eating the apple was, by God's own terms, a pedestrian sin.

Yet God condemned all of us to death because of a single sin: the first sin ever sinned. Are you guilty of Eve's sin? Of course not! No more so than for Hillary Clinton's sins or for mine. Right off the bat, common sense tells us that the Bible, in Genesis, is preaching a twisted morality. It puts us in opposition to ourselves by claiming our nature is sinful.

I'm no genius but I know a scam when I see one. Biblical sin is God's heads-I-win-tails-you-lose con game: it's a sham used to manipulate and control us via fear and guilt. I reject the neurosis of biblical sin: I believe our nature is basically good but we sometimes make mistakes. Hell, if we believe we're not good, we probably won't be.

But that's definitely not what the Bible preaches, is it? We're ALL unworthy, wretched, sinners.

The Bible says God created the universe and everything in it, including Adam and Eve. He did this in 6 days; executing his allegedly perfect plan on schedule and without a hitch (except that Eve was an afterthought). Adam and Eve were pure and sinless: they had all eternity, in Eden, to bask in God's glory.

Unless, of course, they pissed him off.

And it doesn't take much to piss off God. No sir! And second chances? Forget about it. One mistake and you're history. By the way, all of your offspring, forever, will also be cursed with death. How do you like them apples?

Because of Adam and Eve, we're all born guilty of "Original Sin". So much for God's perfect plan (let's call it, "plan A"). In fact, Original Sin made the human condition so intractably degenerate that God had to wipe out all life (human or not) with a catastrophic flood so that Noah's family could start humanity anew, from scratch. This was God's idea of plan B.

Well guess what? God's plan B was all for naught. A few thousand years later, humanity had repopulated itself from Noah's incestuous Ark and – surprise, surprise – was no better than before. I guess that's what inbreeding gets you. You'd think God would know that.

Time for plan C.

This time, instead of genocide, God chose suicide. He came to Earth personally, as Jesus, to act out a script he divinely inspired, in biblical prophesy, that ended with his own trial, crucifixion, resurrection and ascension back home to heaven.

Why did God do this to himself? Original Sin. Because of Original Sin, we can never be innocent enough for eternal life. We must be forgiven before heaven's gates will open for us. If you know your dogma, you know Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross so that we may be redeemed from sin (and have everlasting life). Because God eternally cursed mankind with death, he had to provide some means for our redemption. The alternative was to abandon us. Quite a conundrum God put himself in, no?

Basically, God had to "save" us from the curse he imputed upon us to begin with. I'm amazed that so many people don't see through this preposterous charade. Perhaps the pretzel logic is too tangled for most to unravel. The Bible would have us believe – and doctrine upholds – that we are all miserable wretches who will be granted eternal life only if we love Jesus. Of course, this assumes we can trust God not to resort to a plan D or E or whatever. After all, God is perfect and all-powerful: who's going to stop him from tossing out plan C if he decides, yet again, that he still hasn't gotten creation right?

God must regret cursing mankind with death. If God is perfect, we can't say he makes mistakes; so I prefer to say he has regrets. Anyway, I suppose God was hot-headed in his youth; the Old Testament clearly depicts him with a short fuse. So once he imputed death upon us, he couldn't "un-impute" it. I mean, he's God! Right? His word is law and immutable. What kind of self-respecting God would change his mind? If God is love, then I guess it's true that, "love means never having to say you're sorry".

Eventually, God found a loophole in his own immutable law: leave mankind cursed but offer individuals an exemption by redemption. Yeah, that's the ticket! For Christ's sake – why didn't God think of plan C before plan B? After all, if redemption is a workable plan, God flooded the Earth and wiped-out humanity for nothing. I hate when that happens!

From Original Sin to redemption, the story twists a pretzel-logic plot of servile spiritual entrapment, with a theme of self-loathing morality.

You know, the more I think about it, the more I think the Supreme Being should be an elected position. Surely we can put somebody with more compassion and foresight onto the throne of the Ruler of the Universe. At least, if we elect poorly, we can vote for a replacement next time.
Jim Ashby
http://AtheistExile.com...

"Knowledge is a relatively safe addiction . . . that is, until it becomes idolatry." ~Anonymous

"The Abrahamic religions have been THE most persistently divisive influence in the history of mankind." ~Jim Ashby
DevinKing
Posts: 206
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12/2/2009 2:28:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
AtheistExile: "Haven't you ever done something you regret? If so, how does that compare to eating a fruit from the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil"? If all sins are the same to God and all sins are disobedience to God, then eating the apple was, by God's own terms, a pedestrian sin."

--When you say that it is a "pedestrian" sin, you assume that if all sins are equall, then they must all be trivial. However, this is false, the truth is actually the opposite; All sins are extremely severe, even "small" ones like white lies.

AtheistExile:"Yet God condemned all of us to death because of a single sin: the first sin ever sinned."

--"The wages of sin is death." ~Bible

AtheistExile: "I'm no genius... "

--Agreed

AtheistExile: "And second chances? Forget about it."

--The fact that we are still here is a testiment to the fact that we did recieve a second chance. This is why he sent down his son Jesus. Jesus is our second chance.

AtheistExile: "Basically, God had to "save" us from the curse he imputed upon us to begin with."

--We brought that curse down upon ourselves. He cursed us because he was Just and we had sinned. He could have struck us down on the spot and have been completely fair. Rather, he chose to let us live.

AtheistExile: "You know, the more I think about it, the more I think the Supreme Being should be an elected position. Surely we can put somebody with more compassion and foresight onto the throne of the Ruler of the Universe. At least, if we elect poorly, we can vote for a replacement next time."

--This is sheer mockery. You have little base in reason.
After demonstrating his existence with complete certainty with the proposition "I think, therefore I am", Descartes walks into a bar, sitting next to a gorgeous priest. The priest asks Descartes, "Would you like a drink?" Descartes responds, "I think not," and then proceeds to vanish in a puff of illogic.
crackofdawn_Jr
Posts: 1,350
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12/2/2009 2:34:04 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
right/wrong != good/evil
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics"
-Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine success"

"Therefore love moderately. Long love doth so.
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow."
- William Shakespeare

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."
- Adolf Hitler
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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12/2/2009 2:35:05 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 12/2/2009 2:34:04 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
right/wrong != good/evil

Agree.

Original sin is bogus. Invented by the Catholic church, I believe.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
heart_of_the_matter
Posts: 408
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12/2/2009 6:22:11 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 12/1/2009 5:17:11 PM, AtheistExile wrote:
"God tells Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If this was the only way they could understand the difference between good and evil, how could they have known that it was wrong to disobey God and eat the fruit?" ~Laurie Lynn

Yet God condemned all of us to death because of a single sin: the first sin ever sinned. Are you guilty of Eve's sin? Of course not! No more so than for Hillary Clinton's sins or for mine. Right off the bat, common sense tells us that the Bible, in Genesis, is preaching a twisted morality. It puts us in opposition to ourselves by claiming our nature is sinful.

First, I would like to start off by saying that I don't agree with the doctrine of "original sin". I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon) and our 2nd Article of Faith deals with this topic:
THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

Second, when you say that Adam chose to "sin" I wanted to qualify that word. The forbidden fruit was from the Tree of "Knowledge of Good and Evil". Adam had not yet eaten of it...so if a man does not know good from evil how could he "sin"? James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

I will call it a transgression though, because God told them not to partake of that fruit. BUT also consider this: in Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Do you find it peculiar that the tree was placed in the "midst" of the garden...Do parents put cookies in front of their kids and tell them "I don't want you to eat those cookies...nevertheless you may choose for yourself" and then leave the room...?

What is going on is that "The Fall of Adam and Eve" is part of the plan. It was supposed to happen and the necessary preparations have been made (The Atonement of Jesus Christ) for people to be saved from the Fall!
1 Cor. 15: 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Haven't you ever done something you regret? If so, how does that compare to eating a fruit from the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil"? If all sins are the same to God and all sins are disobedience to God, then eating the apple was, by God's own terms, a pedestrian sin.

No unclean thing can enter into God's presence. Whether you are a little dirty or a lot dirty...NO uncleaness is allowed...that is why a Redeemer is needed. Here is an explanation from the Book of Mormon:

Alma 11: 37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.

I'm no genius but I know a scam when I see one. Biblical sin is God's heads-I-win-tails-you-lose con game: it's a sham used to manipulate and control us via fear and guilt. I reject the neurosis of biblical sin: I believe our nature is basically good but we sometimes make mistakes. Hell, if we believe we're not good, we probably won't be.

You have probably been observing false churches:
2 Tim. 3: 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

But that's definitely not what the Bible preaches, is it? We're ALL unworthy, wretched, sinners.

We will all sin at some point in our lives...we will all need the Savior Jesus Christ.
God does not EVER force us to sin...we all CHOOSE to sin.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

The Bible says God created the universe and everything in it, including Adam and Eve. He did this in 6 days; executing his allegedly perfect plan on schedule and without a hitch (except that Eve was an afterthought). Adam and Eve were pure and sinless: they had all eternity, in Eden, to bask in God's glory.

I agree for the most part with you here...except that Eve was not an afterthought! All things were first created spiritually before they were temporally created!

Moses 3: 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, acreated all things, of which I have spoken, bspiritually, before they were cnaturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had dcreated all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the eground; for in fheaven gcreated I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;

We were spirits living with God in the Premortal world before we receive our temporal bodies of flesh and blood.

Unless, of course, they pissed him off.

And it doesn't take much to piss off God. No sir! And second chances? Forget about it. One mistake and you're history. By the way, all of your offspring, forever, will also be cursed with death. How do you like them apples?

Anyone can repent and be forgiven, in fact God will forgive a person each and every time that they sincerely repent! It is simply that it must be done in GOD'S way...not OUR way!

Mosiah 26:30 Yea, and as often as my people repent will I forgive them their trespasses against me.

Because of Adam and Eve, we're all born guilty of "Original Sin". So much for God's perfect plan (let's call it, "plan A"). In fact, Original Sin made the human condition so intractably degenerate that God had to wipe out all life (human or not) with a catastrophic flood so that Noah's family could start humanity anew, from scratch. This was God's idea of plan B.

Original sin is a false teaching! I have already previously discussed that.

Well guess what? God's plan B was all for naught. A few thousand years later, humanity had repopulated itself from Noah's incestuous Ark and – surprise, surprise – was no better than before. I guess that's what inbreeding gets you. You'd think God would know that.

Not exactly...there is one significant difference...In Noah's day all the righteous were taken up to the city of Enoch then the Earth was flooded....In our day the righteous have been permitted to live among the wicked. In fact I believe that this is the ONLY reason that the wicked are allowed to remain on the Earth.

Alma 10:22 Yea, and I say unto you that if it were not for the prayers of the righteous, who are now in the land, that ye would even now be visited with utter destruction; yet it would not be by flood, as were the people in the days of Noah, but it would be by famine, and by pestilence, and the sword.
23 But it is by the prayers of the righteous that ye are spared; now therefore, if ye will cast out the righteous from among you then will not the Lord stay his hand; but in his fierce anger he will come out against you; then ye shall be smitten by famine, and by pestilence, and by the sword; and the time is soon at hand except ye repent.
heart_of_the_matter
Posts: 408
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12/2/2009 6:47:09 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 12/1/2009 5:17:11 PM, AtheistExile wrote:
Time for plan C.

There has been 1 plan all along...

This time, instead of genocide, God chose suicide. He came to Earth personally, as Jesus, to act out a script he divinely inspired, in biblical prophesy, that ended with his own trial, crucifixion, resurrection and ascension back home to heaven.

If you will notice even in the BEGINNING of the Bible it talks about offering of sacrifices...
Genesis 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

Moses 5:6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me.
7 And then the angel spake, saying: This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father, which is full of grace and truth.

In verse 7 there we can see...the sacrifices are symbolic! pointing to the time when the Lord Jesus Christ would offer Himself as a sacrifice for sin.

Why did God do this to himself? Original Sin. Because of Original Sin, we can never be innocent enough for eternal life. We must be forgiven before heaven's gates will open for us. If you know your dogma, you know Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross so that we may be redeemed from sin (and have everlasting life). Because God eternally cursed mankind with death, he had to provide some means for our redemption. The alternative was to abandon us. Quite a conundrum God put himself in, no?

There was an alternate plan offered...Lucifer suggested that everyone be FORCED to always do what is right...apparently God was not alright with slavery...
You are correct though in that it would be a difficult situation to be in...but that is what Gods do...they deal with difficult situations.

Basically, God had to "save" us from the curse he imputed upon us to begin with. I'm amazed that so many people don't see through this preposterous charade. Perhaps the pretzel logic is too tangled for most to unravel. The Bible would have us believe – and doctrine upholds – that we are all miserable wretches who will be granted eternal life only if we love Jesus. Of course, this assumes we can trust God not to resort to a plan D or E or whatever. After all, God is perfect and all-powerful: who's going to stop him from tossing out plan C if he decides, yet again, that he still hasn't gotten creation right?

Still just one plan...if you had read those scriptures I cited you would have known ALL ALONG that the Atonement of Jesus Christ was central to the plan.

God must regret cursing mankind with death. If God is perfect, we can't say he makes mistakes; so I prefer to say he has regrets. Anyway, I suppose God was hot-headed in his youth; the Old Testament clearly depicts him with a short fuse. So once he imputed death upon us, he couldn't "un-impute" it. I mean, he's God! Right? His word is law and immutable. What kind of self-respecting God would change his mind? If God is love, then I guess it's true that, "love means never having to say you're sorry".

Not exactly sure what you are getting at here, but I will take a shot at it...
I am thinking that you think that the Israelites in the OT were treated more harshly than people in the NT?...
I would answer with an example...if there is a Father with a stubborn child and a Father with an obedient child and he loves them both equally...will the Father discipline them the same?
Here are just a couple scriptures from Deuteronomy:
Deut. 9: 6, 13
6 Understand therefore, that the Lord thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.
• • •
13 Furthermore the Lord spake unto me, saying, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
Ex. 32: 9
9 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

in summary the Israelites were a "stiffnecked" people...they needed "tough love".

Eventually, God found a loophole in his own immutable law: leave mankind cursed but offer individuals an exemption by redemption. Yeah, that's the ticket! For Christ's sake – why didn't God think of plan C before plan B? After all, if redemption is a workable plan, God flooded the Earth and wiped-out humanity for nothing. I hate when that happens!

mute point...again...still just 1 plan...

From Original Sin to redemption, the story twists a pretzel-logic plot of servile spiritual entrapment, with a theme of self-loathing morality.

You know, the more I think about it, the more I think the Supreme Being should be an elected position. Surely we can put somebody with more compassion and foresight onto the throne of the Ruler of the Universe. At least, if we elect poorly, we can vote for a replacement next time.

You do get a choice...is anyone MAKING you worship God? You have more freedom that you seem to think...although we have freedom...we are never free from the CONSEQUENCES of our decisions...

anyway those are just a couple of my thoughts I had while I was reading your post...
gr33k_fr33k5
Posts: 321
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12/3/2009 7:41:40 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Yet God condemned all of us to death because of a single sin: the first sin ever sinned. Are you guilty of Eve's sin? Of course not!

Am I guilty of Eve's sin? no, and lets just humor you and saaay original sin never existed. How about you just name one person who has never. . . . hmm gotten angry. . . . or maybe, has never said anything malicious. . . . has never done anything but shown love for other people. Has never been jealous. Has never lied. The list goes on . . ..

Eve's sin brought sin into the world, original sin or not, we still have all sinned and fallen short. . . done deal, we are going to Hell. . . ..
I am free, free indeed!

ignorance is bliss
Wolfman
Posts: 7
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12/3/2009 3:25:37 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 12/2/2009 6:51:36 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/1/2009 5:17:11 PM, AtheistExile wrote:
I believe our nature is basically good...

I just wanted to pick out that line for my own personal lulz.

Lol, humans being mostly good. That's funny.
heart_of_the_matter
Posts: 408
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12/3/2009 6:51:01 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
"I believe our nature is basically good"

I actually do agree with AtheistExile on that point.

...but that does not mean that we don't sin....because we do.