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WHO are you in heaven

bulproof
Posts: 25,272
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6/7/2013 8:46:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Are you still you in heaven, can you sin in heaven?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Dogknox
Posts: 5,078
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6/7/2013 9:45:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 8:46:17 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are you still you in heaven, can you sin in heaven?
bulproof good to meet you...
IF...
bulproof if you are IN Heaven then you are without sin!
There is NO sin in heaven!
If you are IN heaven then you have been Judged.
If you have been judged "Sinless" and saved..then you don't sin!
Angels have been judged, they are 100% pure holy sinless.. they do not sin!.. They are 100% love!
Demons have been judged with sin.. they are 100% pure evil.. they can not be good, they would never want to be good!!
They are 100% hate.. They hate you and all of God' creation!
bulproof
Posts: 25,272
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6/7/2013 9:51:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 9:45:22 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 6/7/2013 8:46:17 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are you still you in heaven, can you sin in heaven?
bulproof good to meet you...
IF...
bulproof if you are IN Heaven then you are without sin!
There is NO sin in heaven!
If you are IN heaven then you have been Judged.
If you have been judged "Sinless" and saved..then you don't sin!
Angels have been judged, they are 100% pure holy sinless.. they do not sin!.. They are 100% love!
Demons have been judged with sin.. they are 100% pure evil.. they can not be good, they would never want to be good!!
They are 100% hate.. They hate you and all of God' creation!
Are you still you?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
PrivateEye
Posts: 972
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6/7/2013 10:05:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 9:51:24 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/7/2013 9:45:22 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 6/7/2013 8:46:17 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are you still you in heaven, can you sin in heaven?
bulproof good to meet you...
IF...
bulproof if you are IN Heaven then you are without sin!
There is NO sin in heaven!
If you are IN heaven then you have been Judged.
If you have been judged "Sinless" and saved..then you don't sin!
Angels have been judged, they are 100% pure holy sinless.. they do not sin!.. They are 100% love!
Demons have been judged with sin.. they are 100% pure evil.. they can not be good, they would never want to be good!!
They are 100% hate.. They hate you and all of God' creation!
Are you still you?

lol
bulproof
Posts: 25,272
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6/7/2013 11:35:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 10:05:06 PM, PrivateEye wrote:
At 6/7/2013 9:51:24 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/7/2013 9:45:22 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 6/7/2013 8:46:17 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are you still you in heaven, can you sin in heaven?
bulproof good to meet you...
IF...
bulproof if you are IN Heaven then you are without sin!
There is NO sin in heaven!
If you are IN heaven then you have been Judged.
If you have been judged "Sinless" and saved..then you don't sin!
Angels have been judged, they are 100% pure holy sinless.. they do not sin!.. They are 100% love!
Demons have been judged with sin.. they are 100% pure evil.. they can not be good, they would never want to be good!!
They are 100% hate.. They hate you and all of God' creation!
Are you still you?

lol
I'm missing something ie the funny bit!
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/7/2013 11:37:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 8:46:17 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are you still you in heaven, can you sin in heaven?

Yes you are you and no you cannot sin any longer.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
bulproof
Posts: 25,272
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6/7/2013 11:45:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 11:37:22 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/7/2013 8:46:17 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are you still you in heaven, can you sin in heaven?

Yes you are you and no you cannot sin any longer.
Hmmmmmmmm are you sinless?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/8/2013 12:21:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 11:45:11 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/7/2013 11:37:22 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/7/2013 8:46:17 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are you still you in heaven, can you sin in heaven?

Yes you are you and no you cannot sin any longer.
Hmmmmmmmm are you sinless?

Now or then?
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
bulproof
Posts: 25,272
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6/8/2013 12:27:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/8/2013 12:21:54 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/7/2013 11:45:11 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/7/2013 11:37:22 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/7/2013 8:46:17 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are you still you in heaven, can you sin in heaven?

Yes you are you and no you cannot sin any longer.
Hmmmmmmmm are you sinless?

Now or then?
Wow now your claiming prescience. ARE you sinless? Do you detect any future tense in that question?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/8/2013 12:31:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/8/2013 12:27:51 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:21:54 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/7/2013 11:45:11 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/7/2013 11:37:22 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/7/2013 8:46:17 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are you still you in heaven, can you sin in heaven?

Yes you are you and no you cannot sin any longer.
Hmmmmmmmm are you sinless?

Now or then?
Wow now your claiming prescience. ARE you sinless? Do you detect any future tense in that question?

First off you created the Op so you should now what is being discussed. Second, your Op is talking about heaven not earth. Third, you did not make the question clear then or now. Fourth, no man woman on the face of the earth is sinless.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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6/8/2013 12:38:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Harbinger, if you think that once you're in Heaven, it is a fact that you no longer sin, then the question that comes up is: do you lose your free will? Or is it possible to have free will, and be sinless, yet this world isn't that way?
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
bulproof
Posts: 25,272
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6/8/2013 12:47:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/8/2013 12:31:24 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:27:51 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:21:54 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/7/2013 11:45:11 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/7/2013 11:37:22 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/7/2013 8:46:17 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are you still you in heaven, can you sin in heaven?

Yes you are you and no you cannot sin any longer.
Hmmmmmmmm are you sinless?

Now or then?
Wow now your claiming prescience. ARE you sinless? Do you detect any future tense in that question?

First off you created the Op so you should now what is being discussed. Second, your Op is talking about heaven not earth. Third, you did not make the question clear then or now. Fourth, no man woman on the face of the earth is sinless.
The blade is right, YOU are incapable of being sinless. So how can YOU be sinless in heaven and still be YOU.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/8/2013 12:47:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/8/2013 12:38:03 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
Harbinger, if you think that once you're in Heaven, it is a fact that you no longer sin, then the question that comes up is: do you lose your free will? Or is it possible to have free will, and be sinless, yet this world isn't that way?

Lets remember I am human and do not know everything. Though I assume some if not most of our free-will to choose unGodly things will no longer be allowed. I think we will return to a state like Adam and Eve before the fall(mentally) without temptation as they had.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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6/8/2013 12:50:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/8/2013 12:47:40 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:38:03 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
Harbinger, if you think that once you're in Heaven, it is a fact that you no longer sin, then the question that comes up is: do you lose your free will? Or is it possible to have free will, and be sinless, yet this world isn't that way?

Lets remember I am human and do not know everything. Though I assume some if not most of our free-will to choose unGodly things will no longer be allowed. I think we will return to a state like Adam and Eve before the fall(mentally) without temptation as they had.

Doesn't that make the PoE stronger, though? The most common objection to it is the free will argument...
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bulproof
Posts: 25,272
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6/8/2013 12:53:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/8/2013 12:47:40 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:38:03 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
Harbinger, if you think that once you're in Heaven, it is a fact that you no longer sin, then the question that comes up is: do you lose your free will? Or is it possible to have free will, and be sinless, yet this world isn't that way?

Lets remember I am human and do not know everything. Though I assume some if not most of our free-will to choose unGodly things will no longer be allowed. I think we will return to a state like Adam and Eve before the fall(mentally) without temptation as they had.
So you will no longer be you. You will be the automaton that your god "doesn't" want?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/8/2013 12:54:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/8/2013 12:50:42 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:47:40 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:38:03 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
Harbinger, if you think that once you're in Heaven, it is a fact that you no longer sin, then the question that comes up is: do you lose your free will? Or is it possible to have free will, and be sinless, yet this world isn't that way?

Lets remember I am human and do not know everything. Though I assume some if not most of our free-will to choose unGodly things will no longer be allowed. I think we will return to a state like Adam and Eve before the fall(mentally) without temptation as they had.

Doesn't that make the PoE stronger, though? The most common objection to it is the free will argument...

I think the Poe is a human argument and not a divine one. Meaning that evil does not exist in heaven therefore no Poe there. Free-will is a good a objection here on earth because we now have free-will.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/8/2013 12:55:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/8/2013 12:38:03 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
Harbinger, if you think that once you're in Heaven, it is a fact that you no longer sin, then the question that comes up is: do you lose your free will? Or is it possible to have free will, and be sinless, yet this world isn't that way?

I know this is directed at harbinger, but I'd like to respond.

You can't lose something you don't have. We don't have free-will in this life, only the will to sin; in an of ourselves. So, once we become "sinless", we will only have the will to be righteous.

I'm pretty sure, this will make us a lot different. However, I think we'll still be us; have our memories, personality, etc. Think of yourself when you were 10. Your were probably a lot different, since you didn't know as much as you do now, but you were still you.

Now, imagine yourself without fear, pain, uncertainty, anger. You will be the perfect you. So the real question might be, are you you now? or will you be who you really are then?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
bulproof
Posts: 25,272
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6/8/2013 12:58:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/8/2013 12:55:30 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:38:03 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
Harbinger, if you think that once you're in Heaven, it is a fact that you no longer sin, then the question that comes up is: do you lose your free will? Or is it possible to have free will, and be sinless, yet this world isn't that way?

I know this is directed at harbinger, but I'd like to respond.

You can't lose something you don't have. We don't have free-will in this life, only the will to sin; in an of ourselves. So, once we become "sinless", we will only have the will to be righteous.

I'm pretty sure, this will make us a lot different. However, I think we'll still be us; have our memories, personality, etc. Think of yourself when you were 10. Your were probably a lot different, since you didn't know as much as you do now, but you were still you.

Now, imagine yourself without fear, pain, uncertainty, anger. You will be the perfect you. So the real question might be, are you you now? or will you be who you really are then?
Wow everything you chose to do is sin......WOW.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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6/8/2013 12:58:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/8/2013 12:55:30 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:38:03 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
Harbinger, if you think that once you're in Heaven, it is a fact that you no longer sin, then the question that comes up is: do you lose your free will? Or is it possible to have free will, and be sinless, yet this world isn't that way?

I know this is directed at harbinger, but I'd like to respond.

You can't lose something you don't have. We don't have free-will in this life, only the will to sin; in an of ourselves. So, once we become "sinless", we will only have the will to be righteous.

I'm pretty sure, this will make us a lot different. However, I think we'll still be us; have our memories, personality, etc. Think of yourself when you were 10. Your were probably a lot different, since you didn't know as much as you do now, but you were still you.

Now, imagine yourself without fear, pain, uncertainty, anger. You will be the perfect you. So the real question might be, are you you now? or will you be who you really are then?

Can we be sure that we're saved?
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/8/2013 12:59:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/8/2013 12:55:30 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:

You can't lose something you don't have. We don't have free-will in this life, only the will to sin; in an of ourselves. So, once we become "sinless", we will only have the will to be righteous.

I do not follow. The Bible talks of many men who were righteous. How do you contend we have no free-will?

Think of yourself when you were 10. Your were probably a lot different, since you didn't know as much as you do now, but you were still you.

Great analogy.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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6/8/2013 1:01:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/8/2013 12:54:29 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:50:42 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:47:40 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:38:03 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
Harbinger, if you think that once you're in Heaven, it is a fact that you no longer sin, then the question that comes up is: do you lose your free will? Or is it possible to have free will, and be sinless, yet this world isn't that way?

Lets remember I am human and do not know everything. Though I assume some if not most of our free-will to choose unGodly things will no longer be allowed. I think we will return to a state like Adam and Eve before the fall(mentally) without temptation as they had.

Doesn't that make the PoE stronger, though? The most common objection to it is the free will argument...

I think the Poe is a human argument and not a divine one. Meaning that evil does not exist in heaven therefore no Poe there. Free-will is a good a objection here on earth because we now have free-will.

Right...but either you have free-will in heaven, or you don't. If you don't have free will, you can't possibly sin, but you certainly aren't a being in your own right. If you have free will, it would seem to follow that sin is possible.

Free-will answers the objection by saying "Well, he couldn't eliminate evil and keep free will". Which causes problems in heaven.

I was actually under the impression it was generally considered true that it was at least possible to sin in heaven (isn't that what Lucifer did?)
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YYW
Posts: 36,335
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6/8/2013 1:01:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 8:46:17 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are you still you in heaven, can you sin in heaven?

Idk... but I'm watching Kingdom of Heaven right now.
Tsar of DDO
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/8/2013 1:01:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/8/2013 12:58:35 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:55:30 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:38:03 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
Harbinger, if you think that once you're in Heaven, it is a fact that you no longer sin, then the question that comes up is: do you lose your free will? Or is it possible to have free will, and be sinless, yet this world isn't that way?

I know this is directed at harbinger, but I'd like to respond.

You can't lose something you don't have. We don't have free-will in this life, only the will to sin; in an of ourselves. So, once we become "sinless", we will only have the will to be righteous.

I'm pretty sure, this will make us a lot different. However, I think we'll still be us; have our memories, personality, etc. Think of yourself when you were 10. Your were probably a lot different, since you didn't know as much as you do now, but you were still you.

Now, imagine yourself without fear, pain, uncertainty, anger. You will be the perfect you. So the real question might be, are you you now? or will you be who you really are then?
Wow everything you chose to do is sin......WOW.

Everything I "choose" to do--present tense. All of my own decisions are tainted with sin.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/8/2013 1:02:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/8/2013 12:58:37 AM, Rusty wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:55:30 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:38:03 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
Harbinger, if you think that once you're in Heaven, it is a fact that you no longer sin, then the question that comes up is: do you lose your free will? Or is it possible to have free will, and be sinless, yet this world isn't that way?

I know this is directed at harbinger, but I'd like to respond.

You can't lose something you don't have. We don't have free-will in this life, only the will to sin; in an of ourselves. So, once we become "sinless", we will only have the will to be righteous.

I'm pretty sure, this will make us a lot different. However, I think we'll still be us; have our memories, personality, etc. Think of yourself when you were 10. Your were probably a lot different, since you didn't know as much as you do now, but you were still you.

Now, imagine yourself without fear, pain, uncertainty, anger. You will be the perfect you. So the real question might be, are you you now? or will you be who you really are then?

Can we be sure that we're saved?

Yes.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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6/8/2013 1:03:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/8/2013 12:55:30 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:38:03 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
Harbinger, if you think that once you're in Heaven, it is a fact that you no longer sin, then the question that comes up is: do you lose your free will? Or is it possible to have free will, and be sinless, yet this world isn't that way?

I know this is directed at harbinger, but I'd like to respond.

You can't lose something you don't have. We don't have free-will in this life, only the will to sin; in an of ourselves.

So then the PoE is sound?

So, once we become "sinless", we will only have the will to be righteous.

So we will have no free will then, in heaven.

I'm pretty sure, this will make us a lot different. However, I think we'll still be us; have our memories, personality, etc. Think of yourself when you were 10. Your were probably a lot different, since you didn't know as much as you do now, but you were still you.

But I still had what I consider free will at age 10. You're talking about a fundamental difference in the concept of free will.

Now, imagine yourself without fear, pain, uncertainty, anger. You will be the perfect you. So the real question might be, are you you now? or will you be who you really are then?

No, the real question is, if that's the "perfect" us, why aren't we that way now? The normal response to the PoE is that God wants us to have free will, and is sad when we use it for evil, but that he can't give us free will if we can't choose evil, because then it's not free will. But your argument seems to bolster the PoE, by saying that there's no reason for God to give us free will, and he'll take it away when we die, but he allows suffering now...even though he doesn't have to.
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Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/8/2013 1:05:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/8/2013 12:59:02 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:55:30 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:

You can't lose something you don't have. We don't have free-will in this life, only the will to sin; in an of ourselves. So, once we become "sinless", we will only have the will to be righteous.

I do not follow. The Bible talks of many men who were righteous. How do you contend we have no free-will?

The bible talks of many men who are righteous by faith. We don't have free-will if our hearts are only set on evil, or if we are dead in our trespasses.

A corpse doesn't have a will.

Think of yourself when you were 10. Your were probably a lot different, since you didn't know as much as you do now, but you were still you.

Great analogy.

;)
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/8/2013 1:05:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/8/2013 1:01:01 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:54:29 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:50:42 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:47:40 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:38:03 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
Harbinger, if you think that once you're in Heaven, it is a fact that you no longer sin, then the question that comes up is: do you lose your free will? Or is it possible to have free will, and be sinless, yet this world isn't that way?

Lets remember I am human and do not know everything. Though I assume some if not most of our free-will to choose unGodly things will no longer be allowed. I think we will return to a state like Adam and Eve before the fall(mentally) without temptation as they had.

Doesn't that make the PoE stronger, though? The most common objection to it is the free will argument...

I think the Poe is a human argument and not a divine one. Meaning that evil does not exist in heaven therefore no Poe there. Free-will is a good a objection here on earth because we now have free-will.

Right...but either you have free-will in heaven, or you don't. If you don't have free will, you can't possibly sin, but you certainly aren't a being in your own right. If you have free will, it would seem to follow that sin is possible.

I do not think we will have free-will. I do think we are individuals seperate from God but fully under His divine will.

Free-will answers the objection by saying "Well, he couldn't eliminate evil and keep free will". Which causes problems in heaven.

I think I answered that above. We have no free-choice in heaven, I think.

I was actually under the impression it was generally considered true that it was at least possible to sin in heaven (isn't that what Lucifer did?)

Angels and men have different purposes. Man is mortal physically and angels are not suppose to be because that was not their design nor purpose. That was why the fallen angels have such a bad punishment and why things on earth that go against what God made them for is considered abominations.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/8/2013 1:09:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/8/2013 1:05:22 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:59:02 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:55:30 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:

You can't lose something you don't have. We don't have free-will in this life, only the will to sin; in an of ourselves. So, once we become "sinless", we will only have the will to be righteous.

I do not follow. The Bible talks of many men who were righteous. How do you contend we have no free-will?

The bible talks of many men who are righteous by faith. We don't have free-will if our hearts are only set on evil, or if we are dead in our trespasses.

A corpse doesn't have a will.

I do not follow that we are fully set on evil all the time esp. if we have the Spirit working in us. Without that I would agree with you.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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6/8/2013 1:11:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/8/2013 1:02:46 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:58:37 AM, Rusty wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:55:30 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:38:03 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
Harbinger, if you think that once you're in Heaven, it is a fact that you no longer sin, then the question that comes up is: do you lose your free will? Or is it possible to have free will, and be sinless, yet this world isn't that way?

I know this is directed at harbinger, but I'd like to respond.

You can't lose something you don't have. We don't have free-will in this life, only the will to sin; in an of ourselves. So, once we become "sinless", we will only have the will to be righteous.

I'm pretty sure, this will make us a lot different. However, I think we'll still be us; have our memories, personality, etc. Think of yourself when you were 10. Your were probably a lot different, since you didn't know as much as you do now, but you were still you.

Now, imagine yourself without fear, pain, uncertainty, anger. You will be the perfect you. So the real question might be, are you you now? or will you be who you really are then?

Can we be sure that we're saved?

Yes.

Are there people who think that they're saved when they actually aren't?
Paradox_7
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6/8/2013 1:14:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/8/2013 1:03:58 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:55:30 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/8/2013 12:38:03 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
Harbinger, if you think that once you're in Heaven, it is a fact that you no longer sin, then the question that comes up is: do you lose your free will? Or is it possible to have free will, and be sinless, yet this world isn't that way?

I know this is directed at harbinger, but I'd like to respond.

You can't lose something you don't have. We don't have free-will in this life, only the will to sin; in an of ourselves.

So then the PoE is sound?

No.
So, once we become "sinless", we will only have the will to be righteous.

So we will have no free will then, in heaven.

No.
I'm pretty sure, this will make us a lot different. However, I think we'll still be us; have our memories, personality, etc. Think of yourself when you were 10. Your were probably a lot different, since you didn't know as much as you do now, but you were still you.

But I still had what I consider free will at age 10. You're talking about a fundamental difference in the concept of free will.

It would appear so. I reject the libertarian view of free-will, and hold to the compatibilist form.

Now, imagine yourself without fear, pain, uncertainty, anger. You will be the perfect you. So the real question might be, are you you now? or will you be who you really are then?

No, the real question is, if that's the "perfect" us, why aren't we that way now?
Because we love sin.

The normal response to the PoE is that God wants us to have free will, and is sad when we use it for evil, but that he can't give us free will if we can't choose evil, because then it's not free will.

I know, and its a weak argument.

But your argument seems to bolster the PoE, by saying that there's no reason for God to give us free will, and he'll take it away when we die, but he allows suffering now...even though he doesn't have to.

I didn't say anything about God not having a reason to give us free-will. I said we don't have it, because we only have the will to sin. We're not broken, and its not as if we're missing a few parts, we simply love sin and hate righteousness. But, you look at suffering as if its the ultimate evil, or that it's not good for ppl to suffer.

I understand from our perspective, it sucks @ss, but what is our perspective really worth?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.