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Restoring Jesus' Church is making a COPY!

Dogknox
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6/9/2013 4:30:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
All the many man made churches TEACHING.. "Jesus' Church needs to be restored" (The restorational movement) are teaching against the scriptures!

Scriptures are clear.. "Jesus remains FOREVER with his Church to the end of the world"!
Scriptures are clear.. "The CHURCH Jesus formed brings salvation to all the earth"!
Scriptures are clear.. "The Church Jesus formed is Holy & BLAMELESS!"
Scriptures are clear.. "The Church Jesus formed is Jesus' Body!"
Scriptures are clear.. "The Holy Spirit guides Jesus' Church FOREVER!"
Scriptures are clear.. "The Church is the pillar and the foundation of truth"!

To think Jesus' Holy Church failed is thinking; "Satan somehow overpowered Jesus and Satan TOOK Jesus' body from Jesus"!
It is TEACHING.. "The Holy Spirit lead the Church Jesus formed, into ERROR!"
FACT: If the Holy Spirit was to err, then he would not be perfect he would NOT be God!

To teach; Man needs to come to God' rescue and restore Jesus' body back to Jesus, goes against the scriptures; It goes against "All LOGIC"!

LOGIC ALONE says: All that these many, man made restorational churches will ever end up with is, a reproduction, a COPY of the real thing!
Never, ever will any of these many man made "Restorational churches" become the Church Jesus formed!

Clearly to be in a "Restorational Church" you must reject the scriptures and all LOGIC!
AlbinoBunny
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6/9/2013 4:37:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Blasphemology.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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Dogknox
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6/9/2013 4:51:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
FREEDO & AlbinoBunny I hope all is well...
What is the problem with what I have said.. ... Could it be you reject the "LOGIC" I pointed you to!
More then likely you reject the "Scriptures" of my post!? Perhaps you reject the Scriptures and the LOGIC!!?

Clearly from the scriptures ALONE: Jesus did not leave the ONLY CHURCH he formed. Jesus does NOT need men to form a new Bride for him!

Jesus LOVES his bride and he DIED for her! You do not believe me???
Read Jesus' words yourself..
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
annanicole
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6/9/2013 4:59:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The problem, of course, is that you pervert passages and take passages that were never spoken to the church - and were spoken before there WAS a church of Christ - and apply them to the church. That's your major mistake.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Dogknox
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6/9/2013 8:15:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/9/2013 4:59:53 PM, annanicole wrote:
The problem, of course, is that you pervert passages and take passages that were never spoken to the church - and were spoken before there WAS a church of Christ - and apply them to the church. That's your major mistake.
annanicole You say.."I pervert passages and take passages that were never spoken to the church" AND... What.. The teaching of; "Only the scriptures are the truth" is not perverted!!?
Point me to the scriptures that say.. "Man does NOT need the Church and her sacraments, all man needs is the scriptures"!

annanicole Point me to the scriptures .. And your TEACHING of.. "The Church God formed will fail" show me where this TEACHING is found in the scriptures!

Point me to The TEACHING found in the scriptures... "Jesus will leave his LOVE, his Bride, the one he died for". Tell me "Jesus will leave his LOVER, his bride" is NOT perverted!??

annanicole where is The Teaching of "God does NOT want Infants to be Baptized" show me the scriptures!

I tell you "Jesus will never leave his Church".. Because it is found in the scriptures!
I point you to "the CHURCH as the foundation of TRUTH" and "the CHURCH is holy and BLAMELESS!"
>>>> Because they are indeed found in the scriptures! <<<<<<<

FACT: You reject the scriptures!
You are IN a church that teaches WHAT IS not FOUND IN THE SCRIPTURES!!!!!!!

annanicole you reject Jesus!
Scriptures are very clear..
Those who do NOT accept the words of Jesus: "REJECT HIM"!
John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

It is very, very simple!
It is very, very, very LOGICAL!
annanicole All the thousands of man made Churches (yours included) are attacking the Holy Catholic Church>> The ONLY CHURCH Jesus formed, the ONLY CHURCH Jesus remains with to this day!

FACT: You are AGAINST the Catholic Church!
LOGIC says if against then you can't be fore at the same time!
annanicole I reject you, because you reject Jesus, his words and his Holy Bride!
1) Your many thousands of churches are RIGHT and the Catholic Church is wrong!
OR..
2) The Catholic Church is RIGHT and all YOUR THOUSANDS and thousands of man made churches, YOURS included along with the Mormon and Jehovah Witness ALL included are WRONG!

1 or 2 both can't be right.. they are Opposites!

FACT: Jesus formed ONE Church and it is NOT yours!
The ONLY Church Jesus formed is the same Church you say.. "Satan overpowered and took from Jesus"!
The Same Church that "TEACHES all nations and still TEACHES to this day!"

annanicole YOU are WRONG.. Dead WRONG!! And you know it... You condemn yourself by your PRIDE!
You KNOW YOU reject the scriptures outright, because of PRIDE ALONE!!
You reject LOGIC, Documented History and all that CHRISTIANS tell you; Only the Christians of the early Church are found in Jesus' Catholic Church!
annanicole
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6/9/2013 10:46:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Dogknox: "Point me to the scriptures that say.. "Man does NOT need the Church and her sacraments, all man needs is the scriptures"!

Anna: Point #1 is that I never said, "Man does not need the church." Once again, you simply made it up out of thin air. Not only am I POSITIVE that I never said it, but I'm quite sure I never saw anyone else say it.

Why don't you direct me to post where I or anyone else ever said it. Well, scratch that: we'll write it off to just another Catholic misrepresentation.

As far as any so-called "sacraments", I've been studying the Bible for quite awhile, and I do not recall that word.

Dogknox: "Point me to the scriptures .. And your TEACHING of.. "The Church God formed will fail"

Anna: Point me to the one that promises that it can't or won't. Point me to the one that teaches that the church will never and can never fall away.

Dogknox: "Point me to The TEACHING found in the scriptures... "Jesus will leave his LOVE, his Bride, the one he died for".

Anna: Point me to the teaching that says the BRIDE can't become a WHORE - in some circles, known as the Whore of Babylon. You are the one who tried to say Babylon was another name for Rome.

Dogknox: "annanicole where is The Teaching of "God does NOT want Infants to be Baptized" show me the scriptures!

Anna: Point me to the one that says He does! If there was one that said it, I'd be teaching it.

Dogknox: 'I tell you "Jesus will never leave his Church".. Because it is found in the scriptures!"

Anna: .... and you can't find a one that says the church cannot possibly, under any circumstances, simply walk away and leave Jesus. You've never found that one - and you aren't going to.

Dogknox: "I point you to "the CHURCH as the foundation of TRUTH"

Anna: The church is NOT the foundation of the truth. I challenge you to find ONE instance in the Greek language in which the church is described as the FOUNDATION of the truth. You can't do it - and you won't do it. If you could, I wouldn't be daring you to. All you can find is that the church is the SUPPORT ... a PILLAR ... a SUPPORTIVE STRUCTURE to the truth that ALREADY EXISTS! The Greek word for FOUNDATION is themelios (G2310). The church is never the themelios. Jesus Christ is the themelios. The church is simply a pillar or support of the truth.

Dogknox: 'FACT: You reject the scriptures!"

Anna: FACT: doesn't look like it!

I'm not the one who shamefully avoids every question that I'm asked, as you have repeatedly done. I'm not the one who takes a passage spoken to disciples before there was a church - and tries to tell folks that Jesus was speaking to the church. I'm not the one running around saying, "The church is the FOUNDATION. The church is the FOUNDATION" when NOT ONE TIME is the church ever the "themelios". The church is merely a supportive structure of the truth; it's the a stay, prop, support - the hedraioma .

Dogknox: "The ONLY CHURCH Jesus formed, the ONLY CHURCH Jesus remains with to this day!

Anna: GIVE ME THE PASSAGE, SPOKEN TO THE CHURCH, THAT TEACHES THAT JESUS CHRIST WILL REMAIN WITH HIS CHURCH UNDER ALL CIRCUMSTANCES. GIVE ME THE PASSAGE THAT TEACHES THAT JESUS WILL BE WITH ANY GROUP OF PEOPLE UNTIL THE END OF TIME! I'd truly like to see it! Surely you aren't still DUMB enough to take Matt 28 (which wasn't even spoken to the church), then apply it to the church, then try to tell us that "until the end of the age" just HAS to mean until the world ends! That aside, why don't you supply us with that passage?

Dogknox: "Jesus formed ONE Church and it is NOT yours!"

Anna: Jesus formed ONE church - and it is whatever church wears His name, teaches his doctrine, worships in spirit and in truth, is organized correctly and worships correctly! The popish church doesn't do any of that: they base each and every claim upon an imaginary perpetuity (which they simply make up). Lots of people are deluded by it, however.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Dogknox
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6/10/2013 12:22:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
annanicole Anna: Point #1 is that I never said, "Man does not need the church." Once again, you simply made it up out of thin air. Not only am I POSITIVE that I never said it, but I'm quite sure I never saw anyone else say it.

I reply: The idea of the TEACHING of "Scriptures ALONE" is to give the scriptures the AUTHORITY OVER the CHURCH, Jesus formed!
NOTE..You said. "The SCRIPTURES are your ONLY TRUTH"!
I answer you... What more needs to be said except; "You must reject the scriptures to think Scriptures ALONE SAVE"! NO? Now you recant and say; "I did not say; I don't need Church"! yeah right!!

You said.. As far as any so-called "sacraments", I've been studying the Bible for quite awhile, and I do not recall that word.
I reply.. You don't need to see the word Sacrament to say.. "Church saves"!
The Church feeds Christians the LIVING forever food from heaven.. It is the CHURCH that Feeds the living food from heaven..
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

annanicole All CHRISTIANS eat this heavenly food "ALWAYS HAVE".. So much for calling yourself Christian!

The Church.. removes Sins.. Not your church because your Church has NO authority given it from God to remove sins.
21 Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone"s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

CHRISTIANS have ALWAYS gone to the church Jesus formed to have sins removed by Confession to a Priest/Bishop! So much for calling yourself Christian!

The Holy CHRISTIAN Church has married and buried her Children with the authority of God.. I point at your church and say; "Impostor... A Charlton, a LIE, Formed by Satan himself!"

annanicole You ask.. Point me to the one that promises that it (CHURCH) can't or won't (FAIL). Point me to the one that teaches that the church will never and can never fall away.

I reply: *Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide his Church into all truth.. The Holy Spirit is always with the ONLY Church Jesus formed FOREVER!
John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

*The HOLY SPIRIT Cannot guide into error!
&
John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever"

*The Holy Spirit is with the Church Jesus formed "FOREVER"!!!!
annanicole The Holy Spirit did not start with your CHURCH, so he is NOT, he CANNOT be with your church. Your church teaches God' church failed.. proving *Your church rejects the words of God.. Proving your church is NOT guided by the Holy Spirit!
&
1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God"s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

*The CHURCH Jesus formed has the TRUTH.. The FOUNDATION of truth!!
Your church does NOT have the truth because we both know, your church rejects the scriptures!
&
Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations..
*All nations: Jesus is ALWAYS with his TEACHERS, teaching all nations!
&
Matthew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.
*Jesus is NOT with your >>>MAN MADE<<< church, your church teaches; Jesus' church failed!

You said.. Point me to the one that says He does (want infants baptized)! If there was one that said it, I'd be teaching it.
I reply: First.. Baptism saves! It adds people to Jesus body!
Second.. Jesus commissioned his CHURCH to Baptize ALL NATIONS!!
Third.. Whole households were Baptized.. WHOLE.. means ALL.. COMPLETE!! No scriptures say.. "Whole households were baptized EXCEPT Infants!
Forth.. The scriptures say.. Salvation comes to CHILDREN!
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.


If the scriptures meant to say "To all generations it would have said ALL Generations!" It said CHILDREN because the Baptism is for CHILDREN!
QUESTION: Do you understand the meaning of the word CHILDREN!?
Fifth.. Jesus said.. "Do NOT stop the little children from coming to him"! HOW can a person STOP them?? Only one way.. Not to IMMERSE them into Jesus' body by Baptism, is the ONLY WAY!
Sixth... CHRISTIANS have always baptized Infants!! You say.. "You do not care"!! Sure you do not care because, you would have to be CHRISTIAN to care! You REJECT CHRISTIANS.. proving you are not one!
Seventh.. No one can baptize themselves.. ALL NEED the Holy Church to immerse them into the Holy Body of Jesus! No Baby naturally can chose his parents!! YOU and all man made churches think it is your right to CHOOSE God as father.. NOT LOGICAL!
Eighth.. All people are BORN outside of God' family.. All are born, Adams child!! Including INFANTS! Unless baptized they remain OUTSIDE of God' family!
Ninth .. John the Baptist was NOT baptized by the Bride.. He did not enter the KINGDOM... He was sinless as a infant!
Tenth.Scriptures say.. Baptism saves! Water saved Noah... All in the boat were saved... Does not matter the age of those in the boat! The people of Moses were saved by the waters of the Red Sea! The waters saved even the Infants, these waters of the Red Sea.. saved the people of Moses from the slavery of Egypt.. The waters of Baptism saves the People of God from the slavery of sin!

Eleventh.. The Thief on the cross ended up in a Garden. He was NOT baptized by the Church/bride. No infant would enter heaven if they like the thief die without the baptism of the bride!

Twelve: Your words.. If there was one that said it, I'd be teaching it.
I reply.. "You can't teach"!! Who are you to teach a thing???! You are NOT Church, you have NO authority from God to teach a lick!
WHAT.... annanicole are you saying; "You are going to start your own church???!" Add your church to the thousands and thousands of these man made churches, all claiming to have the only truth.. ha-ha!!

Run from Satan run from the lies TAUGHT by your church!
Harbinger
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6/10/2013 3:36:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I agree. The church of Christ does not need to be restored. It has been and will be since Jesus gave His message in the New Testament. The real debate is what the church of Christ actually is? It is spiritual, beyond any material building or denomination established by men. It reaches beyond what men claim it is and those who follow the New Testament. Those in such churches are in the church of Christ but the church they fellowship in is not that church and that includes the Roman Catholic one. The church of Christ includes all denominations who actually believe in Christ and His Word and confess to Him their sinful condition. Any man who claims His denomination or church is Christ church misses the entire New Testament and the message of Christ. The Church is men who have gained the Kingdom of God through Christ. They are in that kingdom from the moment of their salvation. What did Jesus say? My Kingdom is not of this world and if it was then MY people in the world would not argue about it.

John 8:23
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
annanicole
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6/10/2013 9:20:06 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Dogknox: 'Jesus said.. "Do NOT stop the little children from coming to him"!

Anna: The little children were coming to Him. Jesus said not to stop them from coming to Him. Why were they coming to him?

You'd better say they were coming to him to be baptized. That's exactly how you're using it. You're saying that they only way to stop them would be to not allow them to be baptized. Hear your argument:

"HOW can a person STOP them?? Only one way.. Not to IMMERSE them into Jesus' body"

So the children WERE coming to Jesus. Jesus was telling people not to prevent them, not to discourage them. But the only way the people could have stopped them would have been, according to you, was "not to immerse them"

I know you wouldn't twist things.

I know you wouldn't pervert things.

I know that NO Catholic would outright LIE about things.

"They only way to stop children from coming to Jesus was and would have been to discourage them - to forbid them - from being baptized." The passage you cite says not to forbid them.

WHY WERE THE LITTLE CHILDREN COMING TO JESUS?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
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6/10/2013 10:04:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Dogknox: ""Whole households were baptized EXCEPT Infants!"

Anna: The statistics that I could find state that about 13% of households have children under 6 years of age. That means that if one says, "A household was baptized" - the chances are about 9 out of 10 that no infants were in it. With those kinds of odds, by what rule do you assume that infants were in the households baptisms in the NT?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bulproof
Posts: 25,184
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6/10/2013 10:15:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/10/2013 10:04:02 AM, annanicole wrote:
Dogknox: ""Whole households were baptized EXCEPT Infants!"

Anna: The statistics that I could find state that about 13% of households have children under 6 years of age. That means that if one says, "A household was baptized" - the chances are about 9 out of 10 that no infants were in it. With those kinds of odds, by what rule do you assume that infants were in the households baptisms in the NT?

Why do you all continue to call yourselves followers of christ? You all fight and hate, is that what following christ means? You all claim that only your sect is the church of christ and all the others are heretics.
Christian...........hahahahaha
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
annanicole
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6/10/2013 10:15:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Dogknox: "First.. Baptism saves! It adds people to Jesus body!"

Anna: Show us that infants are lost! You are the one that gives us "Baptism saves" as a reason to baptize an infant.

*****

Dogknox: Second.. Jesus commissioned his CHURCH to Baptize ALL NATIONS!!

Anna: No, He didn't. He didn't commission the church. But assuming it applies, here's how it reads:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"

Dogknox, is the order in the commission, (1) GO, (2) TEACH, (3) BAPTIZE?

If so, do you skip number 2 when you pour water on a baby's head?

Dogknox, is not the antecedent of "them" the taught "nations"?


*****

Dogknox: "John the Baptist was NOT baptized by the Bride.. He did not enter the KINGDOM... He was sinless as a infant!"

Anna: Prove that John the Baptist never sinned

*****

Dogknox: " All people are BORN outside of God' family.. All are born, Adams child!! Including INFANTS! Unless baptized they remain OUTSIDE of God' family!

Anna: Whose family are they in? Adam doesn't have a spiritual family - he has a fleshly family. The only two spiritual families are God's and the devil's.

*****

Dogknox: "The people of Moses were saved by the waters of the Red Sea! The waters saved even the Infants, these waters of the Red Sea.. saved the people of Moses from the slavery of Egypt"

Anna: The cattle were saved just as well. It's a poor program that carries a figure too far.

Now we'll all sit back and watch Dogknox refuse to answer. Guarantee you he won't answer 'em all.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Dogknox
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6/10/2013 1:14:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/10/2013 3:36:31 AM, Harbinger wrote:
I agree. The church of Christ does not need to be restored. It has been and will be since Jesus gave His message in the New Testament. The real debate is what the church of Christ actually is? It is spiritual, beyond any material building or denomination established by men. It reaches beyond what men claim it is and those who follow the New Testament. Those in such churches are in the church of Christ but the church they fellowship in is not that church and that includes the Roman Catholic one. The church of Christ includes all denominations who actually believe in Christ and His Word and confess to Him their sinful condition. Any man who claims His denomination or church is Christ church misses the entire New Testament and the message of Christ. The Church is men who have gained the Kingdom of God through Christ. They are in that kingdom from the moment of their salvation. What did Jesus say? My Kingdom is not of this world and if it was then MY people in the world would not argue about it.

John 8:23
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Ignatius of Antioch is a CATHOLIC BISHOP!
He said.. "Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans"8:2 [A.D. 110])."

DO YOU SEE IT?? A.D. 110 "Just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church"

Harbinger Jesus formed ONE CHURCH.. He remains ALWAYS with the church he formed to this day!! ..Not any man made churches of the "De-Formation"!

To say Jesus is with all these man made churches is to reject Jesus!
All who reject the scriptures REJECT Jesus!
Harbinger Clearly in the scriptures.. "Jesus' CHURCH will never, ever fail!"
The "de-Formers" TAUGHT; "Satan overpowered Jesus and Satan TOOK Jesus' body from Jesus"!
The "de-Formers" REJECT THE SCRIPTURES!!.. This means "YOU"!!

Dogknox
Dogknox
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6/10/2013 2:15:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
First.. Baptism saves! It adds people to Jesus body!"

annanicole you asked..
Anna: Show us that infants are lost! You are the one that gives us "Baptism saves" as a reason to baptize an infant.
I reply.... OKAY: John the Baptist was NOT Baptized he did not enter the kingdom! No one born is greater then John including INFANTS!

1 Peter 3:21
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also" not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

SCRIPTURES>> "Baptism NOW saves"! Second part.. It saves you by the resurrection!!~
ALL added to the Body of the resurrected Jesus can't die.. because Jesus has been there and done that! He died and RESERRECTED!!
No one can die more then one time.. The Infant ADDED to the resurrected Jesus will live forever!

God commissioned his Church to make Disciples of ALL Nations!
Disciples are IN God' family! The age of the disciple means squat.. All disciples are made by Baptism, even Infants!
Infants are ADDED to God' family as long as they are made a disciple they are God' Adopted Children!
Ephesians 1:5
He predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself, according to His favor and will,

All "IMMERSED" INTO Jesus are adopted "THROUGH Jesus' body"!
NOTHING.. NO THING about; Don't adopt INFANTS!!
NOTHING about being TAUGHT FIRST!!!

YOU SAID.. Dogknox, is the order in the commission, (1) GO, (2) TEACH, (3) BAPTIZE?
If so, do you skip number 2 when you pour water on a baby's head?
Dogknox, is not the antecedent of "them" the taught "nations"?

I reply YOU ARE WRONG... "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them..
If they had to be TAUGHT FIRST it would be very specific about the TEACHING FIRST!!!!

You can't teach INFANTS.. DUH!!
After they are BAPTIZED they are TAUGHT as they GROW in the Family of God!!!! All BISHOPS are NOT born BISHOPS.. They learn as they grow!
annanicole WHAT???.. You were born with a degree to "Princeton University" and you do not need to be TAUGHT a THING!!!? Whack ooh!

THINK: The Old Testament Jews were circumcised before they were nine days old.. As the child grows up it is >>TAUGHT<< the Jewish ways!
annanicole God did not want fully Grown Jews FIRST before they became his people!
THINK: God was about to kill Moses' baby because he had not Circumcised it!
God wanted the Babies ADDED INTO the Jewish Family!!

Baptism is the New testament "Circumcision!"

annanicole You have heathen children running around your house ..
Little PAGANS living in your house until what they are what? Fifteen Sixteen years of age.. And when they decide to be BORN, then they PICK their PARENT!!
THINK
NO BABY DECIDES who it's parents are going to be!!.. It goes against NATURE.. NO BABIES EVER decide who there parents are going to be.. NEVER EVER! it is Whack-oh to preach or even think otherwise!
No one can baptize themselves... ! Baptism is NEVER a action done on the part of the person being saved!! ALL The actions all the work of forming for God hios children is done by the CHURCH!! The person just stands there.. DOING NOTHING to be saved! AS all babies born>> They have ZERO Action in picking their parents! BUT..
annanicole but the protestant (you) can't be BORN until he DECIDES to be born, until he DECIDES who his "Parent" (singular) will be! Until he decides he has learned all there is to know about Jesus and God!

THINK... Were you born OUTSIDE of your family then when you decided when your were good and ready, you decided to join the family!!? NO !!!! It is Whack-oh to even suggest it!! But this is EXACTLY what you are TEACHING in your man made "Protesting Church"!

annanicole It works this way.. The Infant is TAUGHT about God as it grows up in God' Holy Catholic family!! IF...
annanicole If the mature person rejects the truth then they can step out of the family as the Prodigal son did !!.. As the "de-Formers" did!
LOOK...
56 The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood lives in Me, and I in him.

DO YOU SEE IT!!? The person will quit EATTING and then DIE, they will STARVE!!!
The Prodigal Son would have died if he did not return to his father! The father let him go.. He was born and TAUGHT and raised up in the home of his father.. at a later age he decided to LEAVE THEN he has the choice.. The CHOICE was NOT his to enter the family, but the choice was his to LEAVE the family the choic was his to turn his back on his family!!

The "De-Formers" LEFT the Family of God.. They STARVED TO DEATH!! The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood lives in Me, and I in him. They stopped EATTING just as Adam stopped eatting from the Tree Of Life and died! Adam was denied access to the Tree Of Life and also died.. He was BORN into God' family.. He made the CHOICE to leave!!!!
He had NO choice to be formed by God!! Whack whack whack ooh THINK!!

Adam was formed and PLACED in a Garden.. he LEFT he made his CHOICE he decided to LEAVE!!
The Jews were made God' people they rebel and Leave God' protection!!

You are OUTSIDE of God' family born OUTSIDE!! YES you might have been baptized, but LONG LONG ago you have starved to death..53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
annanicole
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6/10/2013 2:37:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Dogknox: "I reply YOU ARE WRONG"

Anna: Really?

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things"

GO .... TEACH ... BAPTIZE .... TEACH

Yet you say: If they had to be TAUGHT FIRST it would be very specific about the TEACHING FIRST!!!!

What could be clearer? Can you count to four?

(1) "Go ye therefore,
(2) and teach all nations,
(3) baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,
(4) teaching them to observe all things"

This isn't higher math, Dogknox. Yet you say it just "could have been clearer."

Look at Matt 28: 19. Place them in order: GO, TEACH, BAPTIZE

It's clear. Plenty clear.

Dogknox, in Matt 28: 19 does TEACH come before BAPTIZE?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
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6/10/2013 2:38:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Dogknox: 'Jesus said.. "Do NOT stop the little children from coming to him"!

Anna: The little children were coming to Him. Jesus said not to stop them from coming to Him. Why were they coming to him?

You'd better say they were coming to him to be baptized. That's exactly how you're using it. You're saying that they only way to stop them would be to not allow them to be baptized. Hear your argument:

"HOW can a person STOP them?? Only one way.. Not to IMMERSE them into Jesus' body"

So the children WERE coming to Jesus. Jesus was telling people not to prevent them, not to discourage them. But the only way the people could have stopped them would have been, according to you, was "not to immerse them"

I know you wouldn't twist things.

I know you wouldn't pervert things.

I know that NO Catholic would outright LIE about things.

"They only way to stop children from coming to Jesus was and would have been to discourage them - to forbid them - from being baptized." The passage you cite says not to forbid them.

WHY WERE THE LITTLE CHILDREN COMING TO JESUS?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Harbinger
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6/10/2013 3:39:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/10/2013 1:14:20 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 6/10/2013 3:36:31 AM, Harbinger wrote:
I agree. The church of Christ does not need to be restored. It has been and will be since Jesus gave His message in the New Testament. The real debate is what the church of Christ actually is? It is spiritual, beyond any material building or denomination established by men. It reaches beyond what men claim it is and those who follow the New Testament. Those in such churches are in the church of Christ but the church they fellowship in is not that church and that includes the Roman Catholic one. The church of Christ includes all denominations who actually believe in Christ and His Word and confess to Him their sinful condition. Any man who claims His denomination or church is Christ church misses the entire New Testament and the message of Christ. The Church is men who have gained the Kingdom of God through Christ. They are in that kingdom from the moment of their salvation. What did Jesus say? My Kingdom is not of this world and if it was then MY people in the world would not argue about it.

John 8:23
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Ignatius of Antioch is a CATHOLIC BISHOP!
He said.. "Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans"8:2 [A.D. 110])."

Who is he? A man with no authority over the church just like me. Why would I listen to him? IDK.

DO YOU SEE IT?? A.D. 110 "Just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church"

So, where was Jesus Christ at in 110 AD? I think He was crucified in 33AD and went to heaven to prepare us a place there. Therefore that quote not correct one bit. The church is were ever the Holy Ghost is.

Harbinger Jesus formed ONE CHURCH.. He remains ALWAYS with the church he formed to this day!! ..Not any man made churches of the "De-Formation"!

True, I do not claim any Protestant church is that church, see you do not read my post. You simply throw up the same drivel. I do not care about what your popes and such and such claims. I care what the Bible claims. You cannot and will not connect the Gospel to your specific church, I do not think Jesus Christ specifically claimed what branch of church His is. You do though.

To say Jesus is with all these man made churches is to reject Jesus!

Well stop claiming His church then, yours is man-made, DUH. Anyone with half a brain knows that, Peter started your church.

All who reject the scriptures REJECT Jesus!

So stop making claims in them that is not there. That is the first sign of rejecting scriptures.

Harbinger Clearly in the scriptures.. "Jesus' CHURCH will never, ever fail!"

Who said it did and will? Your the claiming the RCC is that church and no other, How hypocritical.

The "de-Formers" TAUGHT; "Satan overpowered Jesus and Satan TOOK Jesus' body from Jesus"!

They did no such thing.

The "de-Formers" REJECT THE SCRIPTURES!!.. This means "YOU"!!

It is written everywhere here and in your RCC, what they think, guess what most of it reject the gospel of Christ. It is your own fault if you do not read them.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Dogknox
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6/10/2013 3:43:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/10/2013 2:37:07 PM, annanicole wrote:
Dogknox: "I reply YOU ARE WRONG"

Anna: Really?

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things"

GO .... TEACH ... BAPTIZE .... TEACH

Yet you say: If they had to be TAUGHT FIRST it would be very specific about the TEACHING FIRST!!!!

What could be clearer? Can you count to four?

(1) "Go ye therefore,
(2) and teach all nations,
(3) baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,
(4) teaching them to observe all things"

This isn't higher math, Dogknox. Yet you say it just "could have been clearer."

Look at Matt 28: 19. Place them in order: GO, TEACH, BAPTIZE

It's clear. Plenty clear.

Dogknox, in Matt 28: 19 does TEACH come before BAPTIZE?

Right you are... "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things"

annanicole But other scriptures do NOT mention TEACHING before Baptizing!!
If it was so IMPORTANT God would have made it very clear.. They MUST be taught first!
LOOK.. Baptizing without a teaching!
"All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing
Do you see the word "TEACHING" in the verse (above) Clearly the Scripture Scholer did not put the word "TEACHING" in his interpration.. An error?? I think NOT!!!

Again.. If it was so IMPORTANT God would have made it very clear.. They MUST be taught first! Clearly the TEACHING is not as important, as you think it is!!

Acts 2.. The people just learned they killed God' Son.. so they ask Peter.."What shell we do"???!
Peter's reply.. "repent and Be Baptized"!
annanicole Does Peter say.. Learn first what I teach you, to be saved?! NO!!

Repent &, Repent PLUS... "repent ALSO be baptized!
Not repentance alone.. Repentances alone does NOT save.. NOT TEACHING.. Teaching alone does NOT save.. but Baptizing saves!

The Baptized are "ADDED to Jesus' Body" it is just this simple!
annanicole ONLY being; "IMMERSED into the Holy Catholic Body of Jesus: Saves!"

All who accepted Peters message... were Baptized and were saved!
Peter' MESSAGE was NOT a TEACHING..
Peter's message was; "I WARN you" his message was; "I BEG YOU" be baptized, be saved!

36 "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah."
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off"for all whom the Lord our God will call."

40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation."
41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.


Acts 10.. The people had received the Holy Spirit.. Jesus wanted them Baptized.. So Peter ORDERS.. "Baptize them" speaking for God he ORDERS.. Speaking with the authority of Jesus.. speaking for Jesus in his name representing Jesus; Peter orders them Baptized! Nothing about TEACHING first!

Then Peter said, 47 "Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

THINK.. WHO decide when the TEACHING is enough???!! It makes NO sense! Jesus wanted them BAPTIZED with water.. Period Nothing mentioned about how much they know or should know first before being baptized!

annanicole The Great Commission does NOT stop at verse 19!! Verse #20 tells you "The CHURCH; Jesus is ALWAYS with, has all the authority of God to TEACH ALL NATIONS!"
The ONLY CHURCH Jesus formed Two Thousand Years ago... TEACHES with all of God' authority.. "Baptize INFANTS!"

The words of GOD tell you.. "All authority is given to the CHURCH to teach all nations!"
"All power in Heaven and on earth has been given to me. You, then, are to go and make disciples of all the nations and baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Teach them to observe all that I have commanded you and, remember, I am with you always, even to the end of the world."

The CHURCH with; "All power in Heaven and on earth" TEACHES... "Baptize all INFANTS!"

CHRISTIANS have always baptized INFANTS!!
Not until the "de-formation" and the rejecting of the Church and her sacraments did men decide Baptism does NOT SAVES! Or as your church TEACHES.. from OUTSIDE of the scriptures.. "Scriptures teach Do not baptize Infants"!

POINT ME to the Scriptures that say.. "Do NOT baptize INFANTS!"
annanicole
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6/10/2013 5:43:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Please note that Dogknox struggled severely with the fact that the Commission says, (1) Go, then (2) Teach, then (3) Baptize, then (4) continue teaching. He's admitted it - and just complains that it's not in there often enough to suit him! One time is enough, Dogknox.

*****

Dogknox: "But other scriptures do NOT mention TEACHING before Baptizing!!"

Anna: Once is enough - God presumed you'd have gumption enough to know that every conversion is the same - the order of events is the same.

*****

Dogknox: "If it was so IMPORTANT God would have made it very clear.. They MUST be taught first!"

Anna: How could it be any clearer? "Go ... Teach ... Baptize. What did Peter do on Pentecost? He WENT .. he TAUGHT .. he BAPTIZED! To follow the Catholic order, he should have baptized them FIRST.

*****

Dogknox: "Do you see the word "TEACHING" in the verse (above)" - referring to the Commission

Anna: Sure I do! "Teach" and "make disciples" are interchangeable: they mean the same thing

*****

Dogknox: "Not repentance alone.. Repentances alone does NOT save.. NOT TEACHING.. Teaching alone does NOT save.. but Baptizing saves!"

Anna: That's not what Peter said! Certainly not. Peter connected BOTH repentance and baptism to salvation - equally.

"Repent and be baptized every one of you unto the remission of sins."

To baptize a person PRESUPPOSES repentance. You can't scripturally baptize an impenitent man - and you can't scripturally baptize a non-believer. Baptism is simply the LAST thing. Hearing the gospel is the FIRST.

Look at Acts 2: Peter preached gospel. They heard it. They believed it. They were pricked in their hearts. They were then told to repent and be baptized.

Every conversion will be the same! There's not a single exception.

*****

Dogknox: "Nothing mentioned about how much they know or should know first before being baptized!"

Anna: Look at Acts 8: "What doth hinder me to be baptized?"

According to a Catholic, NOTHING should hinder! You know that's true. What did Philip say? "IF ... IF ... if thou believest, thou mayest". What does a Catholic say? "Nothing hinders you. Get baptized, and we'll teach you later."

*****

Dogknox now comes to Acts 2 - absolutely the worst place for him to go - and tries to convince people that Peter's sermon was not "teaching."

Peter said, "be this known unto you" - but he wasn't teaching!
Peter said, "this is that which was spoken", i. e. Peter explains prophesy - but he wasn't teaching!
Peter said, "hear these words" - but he wasn't teaching!
Peter said, "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly" - but he wasn't teaching!

What does the Catholic Encyclopedia have to say about it?

"Peter standing at the head of the Apostles delivers the first public sermon to proclaim the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, and wins a large number of Jews as converts to the Christian community."

Hear it: the first public sermon to proclaim the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ - yet Saint Dogknox has ascertained that Peter was not TEACHING! Dogknox, your weak quibble falls under its own weight, and I need not comment further on it.

*****

Dogknox then virtually admits defeat and whines: "POINT ME to the Scriptures that say.. "Do NOT baptize INFANTS!"

Anna: Dogknox, the Commission says not to baptize infants. An infant can't be taught! To be baptized, a person must be taught - and must believe.

Acts 8: 35-36: "And Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture, preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on the way, they came unto a certain water; and the eunuch saith, Behold, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?"

What's the Catholic answer to that, Dogknox?

Dogknox, did Philip place any condition on baptism?

Dogknox, is there any condition, any pre-requisite, for baptism?


Please note that Dogknox has virtually given up his point. He - and everyone else - knows that he can't find a clear-cut case of infant baptism in the entire Bible. Not only that, he can't find a case on "nonbeliever baptism". To the contrary, we find belief and repentance as conditions.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Dogknox
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6/10/2013 7:52:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You said.. the Commission says not to baptize infants. An infant can't be taught! To be baptized, a person must be taught - and must believe.

I reply: RIGHT ON... An infant can't be taught! I could not have said it better!
THUS teaching is not important to be Baptized!
The TEACHING comes from the CHURCH as the Infant grows up!
The TEACHING comes from the Parents as the Infant grows up!!
The Baptism "ADDS" the Infants to the Body of Jesus the Holy Catholic Church!

annanicole Being ADDED to God' family the INFANT receives the Holy Spirit to guide and teach them!
They do NOT have the Holy Spirit until they are baptized!

"Repent be Baptized for the foregiveness of your sins, receive the GIFT of the Holy Spirit!"
SPIRIT PLUS BAPTISM.. makes God' children!

Until the infant is Baptized they remain OUTSIDE of God' holy Family!

Baptism "ADDS" Christians to God' BODY!
annanicole No one is "ADDED" until they are baptized; Including INFANTS!

All protestant infants die without baptism, do not enter the KINGDOM! It is just this simple!
John the Baptist died before Pentecost, he was NOT in the Kingdom! John is greater then all infants NO ONE was greater then he!!
John died before he was Baptized by the Church!

Jesus said.. "Do not stop them from coming to him"!
INFANTS must be carried.. "Jesus said DO NOT STOP them from coming to him. Can't mean do not stop CARRYING them.. It can only mean Baptism!
Do not stop the Infants from coming to Jesus can ONLY MEAN... BAPTIZE THEM!

2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.
Causing to Stumble
6 "If anyone causes one of these little ones" those who believe in me" to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!


annanicole verse #7 is directed directly at you, WOE to you!!!

1 Corinthians 3:1
Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly"mere infants in Christ.

INFANTS are IN Jesus only one way.. mere infants in Christ BY BAPTISM!!
Paul is addressing the church in 1 Corinthians 3:1 as if they were just baptized >>>> as INFANTS!
Dogknox
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6/10/2013 8:04:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
NOTHING should hinder! You know that's true. What did Philip say? "IF ... IF ... if thou believest, thou mayest". What does a Catholic say? "Nothing hinders you. Get baptized, and we'll teach you later."

Was Philip talking to an INFANT!! NO!!
Until you can point to the CHURCH demanding Faith and TEACHING of INFANTS you can't say; "Believing and TEACHING of INFANTS is a prerequisite to baptism!!"
It is JUST this simple...
You must become as little children.. Accepting Jesus and truth without question!
The TEACHING comes AFTER an INFANT is baptized!

OF COURCE TEACHING and Repentance MUST come first to an ADULT.. DUH!!
An Adult... Has SINS so an adult must repent first!
An Adult... MUST understand before they are Baptized because as an adult they will need Faith. A Infant does NOT need faith...Again DUH!!

Not until the age when reason happens.. But by then they will have been TAUGHT about what in means to be CHRISTIAN>> Something very clearly you are NOT!
annanicole Christians believe the scriptures.. It is this BELIEVING in the unbelievable that makes a CHRISTIAN a "Christ Follower"!

You reject the scriptures outright.. You reject Jesus! You are NOT a Christian you are IN DIRECT PROTEST against Jesus!

Dogknox
annanicole
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6/11/2013 1:44:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Notice that Dogknox has entirely different reasons for baptizing an infant than an adult. That's the crux of his argument - even though he'd hate to admit it. Does the Bible teach any such nonsense? Of course not: Dogknox made it up.

He says: "OF COURCE TEACHING and Repentance MUST come first to an ADULT.. DUH!!"

WHY? Why, Dogknox, must one teach an adult FIRST?

He pontificates:

(1) "A Infant does NOT need faith...Again DUH!!"

Comment: Certainly not! An infant does not need baptism, either.

(2) "You must become as little children.. Accepting Jesus and truth without question!"

Comment: An infant does not accept Jesus and truth, period.

Here's the inexplicable difference:

Bible: "(1) GO, (2) TEACH, (3) BAPTIZE
Dogknox: "THUS teaching is not important to be Baptized!"

Dogknox, then WHY did the Lord place it BEFORE baptism in the Commission? Why didn't He say, "Go and baptize, then teach 'em as they grow up?" Note the clear discrepancy between Christianity and Catholicism!

*****

Dogknox: "The Baptism "ADDS" the Infants to the Body of Jesus the Holy Catholic Church!"

Anna: Point #1 is that the body of Jesus Christ is not and never was the "Holy Catholic Church." Point #2 is that the church is the saved. An infant has no sins - it is S-A-F-E. An infant has no need of being "saved". An infant CAN'T be saved - it is not lost.

Why don't you answer the following, and give the passage that clearly teaches it:

(1) The church is the saved. Yes or No?
(2) An infant is lost. Yes or No?
(3) An infant can be numbered among the saved. Yes or No?
(4) An infant can be numbered among the church. Yes or No?

Do you recall the terribly difficulty that Dogknox had in even defining "the church". He can't find ONE definition that fits. I can. He can't tell us when it began! I can. There's a reason for it, too. Catholicism is notoriously full of contradictions on the subject.

Dogknox: "annanicole Being ADDED to God' family the INFANT receives the Holy Spirit to guide and teach them"

Anna: Oh, nonsense! Then why do SO MANY infants who are forced into what the Catholics call "baptism" - as infants, later grow up to be atheists or Protestants? I'd hate to know that percentage! Did the Holy Spirit guide them right out of popery?

Imagine someone who thinks so little of the gospel as to claim that a Catholic priest sprinkles a little water on a helpless infant - which causes the Holy Spirit to enter the infant and "guide" it? Such supersitions incited the Protestant Reformation! Oddly enough, most of the Protestant Reformers were "baptized" as infants in the Catholic Church!

*****

Dogknox: ""Repent be Baptized for the foregiveness of your sins, receive the GIFT of the Holy Spirit!" SPIRIT PLUS BAPTISM.. makes God' children!

Anna: That's an absurd analysis of the passage. Repentance is just as must a condition as baptism, is it not? We'll try this:

Dogknox, according to Acts 2: 38, is repentance necessary to the reception of the Holy Spirit? Yes or no!

*****

Dogknox: "Until the infant is Baptized they remain OUTSIDE of God' holy Family!"

Anna: If by God's Holy Family you mean "the church" - infants are outside of it after baptism. The church is the saved. An infant cannot be numbered among "the saved."

*****

Dogknox: "Baptism "ADDS" Christians to God' BODY!"

Anna: No, it doesn't! Find a passage that teaches such a thing! There is no such thing as an unbaptized Christian.

*****

Dogknox: "All protestant infants die without baptism, do not enter the KINGDOM! It is just this simple!"

Anna: The kingdom is the church of Christ, and the church of Christ is the saved. Infants do not enter it, period - whether someone has ignorantly dabbed some water on their heads or not.

*****

Dogknox: "John the Baptist died before Pentecost, he was NOT in the Kingdom!"

Anna: Nobody ever said he was. The kingdom (the church) did not exist prior to Pentecost.

*****

Dogknox: Jesus said.. "Do not stop them from coming to him"!
Anna: CORRECT
Dogknox: INFANTS must be carried..
Anna: CORRECT
Dogknox: "Jesus said DO NOT STOP them from coming to him.
Anna: CORRECT
Dogknox: Can't mean do not stop CARRYING them..
Anna: CORRECT
Dogknox: It can only mean Baptism!
Anna: Four out of five ain't bad! The people weren't bringing the infants to Jesus for baptism - and he nor anyone else baptized them.

So we'll ask the question, Dogknox, WHY WERE THE PEOPLE BRINGING THE LITTLE CHILDREN TO JESUS? WAS IT FOR BAPTISM?

We'll see how well your flawed reasoning works!

In fact, I'll broaden it: Dogknox, IS THERE ANY RECORD - ANYWHERE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT - OF ANY PARENT BRINGING ANY CHILD TO ANYONE FOR THE PURPOSE OF BAPTISM?

*****

Dogknox: "Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly, mere infants in Christ."

Anna: Why does the Catholic Encyclopedia state that the passage is metaphorical - that it refers to new converts? In other words, the passage has no reference to age?

*****

Poor Dogknox sees that the Commission says, "Go ... teach .. baptize." That's the order, Dogknox. I can't help it. Did anyone ever present his child, an infant, to any apostle for baptism? Of course not. Dogknox - and Catholicism - can't even define what the church is! Or when it started! Watch and see if he does!

Dogknox said the church was simply a body of believers. Sir, the Lord had THAT at the very time he said, "I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH." Thus, you evidently gave us an incorrect definition, didn't you? Of course, to get infants IN it, you'd have to MISDEFINE it!
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Dogknox
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6/11/2013 6:07:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hippolytus is CHRISTIAN!!
His words are opposit to yours!!
"Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

Christians have always TAUGHT Infant Baptism saves them!
Augustine is just one more CHRISTIAN saying the same!
annanicole You MUST reject CHRISTIANS to believe your man made church, a church that rejects the scriptures!
"What the universal Church holds, not as instituted [invented] by councils but as something always held, is most correctly believed to have been handed down by apostolic authority. Since others respond for children, so that the celebration of the sacrament may be complete for them, it is certainly availing to them for their consecration, because they themselves are not able to respond" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:24:31 [A.D. 400]).
annanicole
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6/11/2013 8:36:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I could care less what Augustine or Hippolytus had to say - other than the time Augustine reminded you the Peter was not the ROCK. Took you a week to admit that one - I even had it fill-in-the-blank for you, and you continually missed it.

"The church was not built on a man .... " - Augustine
"The church was built upon Peter" - Dogknox

I realize that sprinkling was introduced very early into the church - over protests, of course. Sprinkling of infants revolved around the silly doctrine of depravity.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Dogknox
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6/12/2013 11:41:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 8:36:45 PM, annanicole wrote:
I could care less what Augustine or Hippolytus had to say - other than the time Augustine reminded you the Peter was not the ROCK. Took you a week to admit that one - I even had it fill-in-the-blank for you, and you continually missed it.

"The church was not built on a man .... " - Augustine
"The church was built upon Peter" - Dogknox

I realize that sprinkling was introduced very early into the church - over protests, of course. Sprinkling of infants revolved around the silly doctrine of depravity.

annanicole I point out.. Augustine & Hippolytus are CHRISTIAN!!
You do not believe the same as CHRISTIANS do.. Proving... Only one conclusion is possible! Christians believe the scriptures, Christians KNOW Jesus cannot lie!

The early Church "CHRISTIANS" Baptized INFANTS because "Baptism SAVES"! Scriptures MUST be rejected to say different!
Until a person (Infants included) is "IMMERSED INTO JESUS" they are NOT "IN" Jesus!
If not "IN Jesus" then you are NOT God' CHILD>> Infants included! UNTIL..
annanicole until a person is IMMERSED into the Body of Jesus, they remain "Adams Child" and we both know, Adams children go to the Garden> Paradise!

God' Children enter the KINGDOM!
Matthew 11:11
Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

John the Baptist was without sin.. He was NOT "IMMERSED" into the body of Jesus, he died before Pentecost! John the Baptist was NOT God' Child! He remained "Child of Adam"!
annanicole
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6/13/2013 4:48:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Deal with the questions/statement in BOLD rather than running to Hippolytus. I could care less what he thought.

Notice that Dogknox has entirely different reasons for baptizing an infant than an adult. That's the crux of his argument - even though he'd hate to admit it. Does the Bible teach any such nonsense? Of course not: Dogknox made it up.

He says: "OF COURCE TEACHING and Repentance MUST come first to an ADULT.. DUH!!"

WHY? Why, Dogknox, must one teach an adult FIRST?

He pontificates:

(1) "A Infant does NOT need faith...Again DUH!!"

Comment: Certainly not! An infant does not need baptism, either.

(2) "You must become as little children.. Accepting Jesus and truth without question!"

Comment: An infant does not accept Jesus and truth, period.

Here's the inexplicable difference:

Bible: "(1) GO, (2) TEACH, (3) BAPTIZE
Dogknox: "THUS teaching is not important to be Baptized!"

Dogknox, then WHY did the Lord place it BEFORE baptism in the Commission? Why didn't He say, "Go and baptize, then teach 'em as they grow up?" Note the clear discrepancy between Christianity and Catholicism!

*****

Dogknox: "The Baptism "ADDS" the Infants to the Body of Jesus the Holy Catholic Church!"

Anna: Point #1 is that the body of Jesus Christ is not and never was the "Holy Catholic Church." Point #2 is that the church is the saved. An infant has no sins - it is S-A-F-E. An infant has no need of being "saved". An infant CAN'T be saved - it is not lost.

Why don't you answer the following, and give the passage that clearly teaches it:

(1) The church is the saved. Yes or No?
(2) An infant is lost. Yes or No?
(3) An infant can be numbered among the saved. Yes or No?
(4) An infant can be numbered among the church. Yes or No?

Do you recall the terribly difficulty that Dogknox had in even defining "the church". He can't find ONE definition that fits. I can. He can't tell us when it began! I can. There's a reason for it, too. Catholicism is notoriously full of contradictions on the subject.

Dogknox: "annanicole Being ADDED to God' family the INFANT receives the Holy Spirit to guide and teach them"

Anna: Oh, nonsense! Then why do SO MANY infants who are forced into what the Catholics call "baptism" - as infants, later grow up to be atheists or Protestants? I'd hate to know that percentage! Did the Holy Spirit guide them right out of popery?

Imagine someone who thinks so little of the gospel as to claim that a Catholic priest sprinkles a little water on a helpless infant - which causes the Holy Spirit to enter the infant and "guide" it? Such superstitions incited the Protestant Reformation! Oddly enough, most of the Protestant Reformers were "baptized" as infants in the Catholic Church!

*****

Dogknox: ""Repent be Baptized for the foregiveness of your sins, receive the GIFT of the Holy Spirit!" SPIRIT PLUS BAPTISM.. makes God' children!

Anna: That's an absurd analysis of the passage. Repentance is just as must a condition as baptism, is it not? We'll try this:

Dogknox, according to Acts 2: 38, is repentance necessary to the reception of the Holy Spirit? Yes or no!

*****

Dogknox: "Until the infant is Baptized they remain OUTSIDE of God' holy Family!"

Anna: If by God's Holy Family you mean "the church" - infants are outside of it after baptism. The church is the saved. An infant cannot be numbered among "the saved."

*****

Dogknox: "Baptism "ADDS" Christians to God' BODY!"

Anna: No, it doesn't! Find a passage that teaches such a thing! There is no such thing as an unbaptized Christian.

*****

Dogknox: "All protestant infants die without baptism, do not enter the KINGDOM! It is just this simple!"

Anna: The kingdom is the church of Christ, and the church of Christ is the saved. Infants do not enter it, period - whether someone has ignorantly dabbed some water on their heads or not.

*****

Dogknox: "John the Baptist died before Pentecost, he was NOT in the Kingdom!"

Anna: Nobody ever said he was. The kingdom (the church) did not exist prior to Pentecost.

*****

Dogknox: Jesus said.. "Do not stop them from coming to him"!
Anna: CORRECT
Dogknox: INFANTS must be carried..
Anna: CORRECT
Dogknox: "Jesus said DO NOT STOP them from coming to him.
Anna: CORRECT
Dogknox: Can't mean do not stop CARRYING them..
Anna: CORRECT
Dogknox: It can only mean Baptism!
Anna: Four out of five ain't bad! The people weren't bringing the infants to Jesus for baptism - and he nor anyone else baptized them.

So we'll ask the question, Dogknox, WHY WERE THE PEOPLE BRINGING THE LITTLE CHILDREN TO JESUS? WAS IT FOR BAPTISM?

We'll see how well your flawed reasoning works!

In fact, I'll broaden it: Dogknox, IS THERE ANY RECORD - ANYWHERE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT - OF ANY PARENT BRINGING ANY CHILD TO ANYONE FOR THE PURPOSE OF BAPTISM?

*****

Dogknox: "Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly, mere infants in Christ."

Anna: Why does the Catholic Encyclopedia state that the passage is metaphorical - that it refers to new converts? In other words, the passage has no reference to age?

*****

Poor Dogknox sees that the Commission says, "Go ... teach .. baptize." That's the order, Dogknox. I can't help it. Did anyone ever present his child, an infant, to any apostle for baptism? Of course not. Dogknox - and Catholicism - can't even define what the church is! Or when it started! Watch and see if he does!

Dogknox said the church was simply a body of believers. Sir, the Lord had THAT at the very time he said, "I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH." Thus, you evidently gave us an incorrect definition, didn't you? Of course, to get infants IN it, you'd have to MISDEFINE it!
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Dogknox
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6/13/2013 3:25:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
annanicole you said..
Deal with the questions/statement in BOLD rather than running to Hippolytus. I could care less what he thought.

Notice that Dogknox has entirely different reasons for baptizing an infant than an adult. That's the crux of his argument - even though he'd hate to admit it. Does the Bible teach any such nonsense? Of course not: Dogknox made it up.
He says: "OF COURCE TEACHING and Repentance MUST come first to an ADULT.. DUH!!"
WHY? Why, Dogknox, must one teach an adult FIRST?


I reply.. "Christians have ALWAYS Baptized INFANTS!" This is an HISTORICAL FACT!
annanicole Not until the "De-formation" and the teaching "Church is NOT needed" did men decide OUTSIDE of the scriptures that "Baptism does NOT SAVE!"
Man needs CHURCH to baptize thus they rejected Baptism!

You do not care what "CHRISTIANS did"!
I do n ot care what you think>> What you think Still does NOT change a thing>> "CHRISTIANS HAVE ALWAYS BAPTIZED INFANTS"!
Scriptures tell you>> Baptism SAVES!

AS FAR..
annanicole as far as "Why did the Adults have to repent"? Simply because Adults have SINS!! DUH!
Infants do not have sins so they do not need to REPENT.. DUH! BUT...
annanicole but they still need to be; "IMMERSED" into the holy Body of Jesus!

Your question...Why, Dogknox, must one teach an adult FIRST?
I answer: When the church was NEW there was ONLY ADULTS!!
Peter was preaching to "ADULTS"!
Not even one INFANT heard Peter' preaching, Peter was not addressing INFANTS! Peter was talking to Adults, thus his message "REPENT"!
Unless a person is IMMERSED into the ONLY Son, the ONE SON of God, they are NOT>> They CANNOT be a Child of God! It is just this simple!

The Infant does NOT NEED FAITH!
A infant all infants are born without any faith.. Faith must be TAUGHT!!
"Faith comes from hearing"!

Faith of the INFANT is not needed but the Faith of the Parents is a MUST!
annanicole NO JEW WOULD CIRCUMCIZE THEIR INFANT IF, THEY DID NOT BELIEVE Circumcision did not IMMERSE their child into the Nation of Israel!
THINK.... Forget the lies you have been taught from outside of the scriptures!

All Jews are Jews because they were CIRCUMCIZED as an Infant!
All Christians are Christians today because they were BAPTIZED, Infants included!!

When the idea came from God to CIRCUMCIZE the Adults were circumcised first..
AT FIRST it was the ADULTS who were Circumcised!!!!!... LOGIC ALONE TELLS YOU I AM RIGHT!
THEN..
annanicole then from there on, their INFANTS were circumcised on the Eighth Day after birth. NONE..
annanicole none of these Jewish INFANTS knew what "Jew Was" they were TAUGHT as they grew up!!! DUH!!

LOGIC alone prove your ERROR!
No baby can decide who his parents are going to be.. IMPOSSABLE to think otherwise!! YET..
annanicole yet this is what you are TEACHING.. The impossible!

You THINK all BABIES have the RIGHT to chose there Parents!!! Whack-whack-whack Ooooh!
Run from the evil of your church.. thousands and thousands of these protestant babies are "Stopped from coming to Jesus!"
NOTHING...
annanicole nothing less then a millstone around your neck is what you deserve!
annanicole
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6/13/2013 3:50:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Dogknox: "I reply.. "Christians have ALWAYS Baptized INFANTS!" This is an HISTORICAL FACT!"

Anna: Really? There were Christians in the first century. Thousands upon thousands of them. Name ONE infant who was baptized. I think your "history" will run out somewhere prior to century number 1.

*****

Dogknox: "You do not care what "CHRISTIANS did"!

Anna: It depends upon WHICH Christians: I have yet to find a single Christian in the entire Bible who ran around baptizing babies. I've also yet to find a single infant who was baptized for a hundred years. 'Tis YOU who does not care what Christians did or didn't do.

Dogknox, since you are concerning over HISTORY and HISTORICAL FACT, name one person in the entire first century who baptized an infant. If you can't do that, tell us who the infant was.

*****

Dogknox: '"CHRISTIANS HAVE ALWAYS BAPTIZED INFANTS"!"

Anna: Now's your chance to prove it

*****

Dogknox: "I answer: When the church was NEW there was ONLY ADULTS!!"

Anna: WHY? You see an infant in a household, but you can't find one out of thousands of people on Pentecost. That's a little strange. I think perhaps that is simply your assertion.

*****

Dogknox: "Not even one INFANT heard Peter' preaching, Peter was not addressing INFANTS!"

Anna: Prove it. Prove there wasn't a single mother or father there who happened to bring along their child.

*****

Dogknox: "The Infant does NOT NEED FAITH!"

Anna: The infant does not need baptism, either.

*****

LOOK AT ALL THE QUESTIONS/STATEMENTS YOU MISSED! I wouldn't have done that! Nope, I've have dealt with each and every one of them.

Dogknox, then WHY did the Lord place it BEFORE baptism in the Commission? Why didn't He say, "Go and baptize, then teach 'em as they grow up?" Note the clear discrepancy between Christianity and Catholicism!

An infant has no need of being "saved". An infant CAN'T be saved - it is not lost.

Do you recall the terribly difficulty that Dogknox had in even defining "the church". He can't find ONE definition that fits. I can. He can't tell us when it began! I can.

Then why do SO MANY infants who are forced into what the Catholics call "baptism" - as infants, later grow up to be atheists or Protestants?

according to Acts 2: 38, is repentance necessary to the reception of the Holy Spirit? Yes or no!

So we'll ask the question, Dogknox, WHY WERE THE PEOPLE BRINGING THE LITTLE CHILDREN TO JESUS? WAS IT FOR BAPTISM?

IS THERE ANY RECORD - ANYWHERE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT - OF ANY PARENT BRINGING ANY CHILD TO ANYONE FOR THE PURPOSE OF BAPTISM?

Did anyone ever present his child, an infant, to any apostle for baptism? Of course not. Dogknox - and Catholicism - can't even define what the church is! Or when it started! Watch and see if he does!

Dogknox said the church was simply a body of believers. Sir, the Lord had THAT at the very time he said, "I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH." Thus, you evidently gave us an incorrect definition, didn't you?

***** LOOK AT ALL OF THAT ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ *************

I'd be embarrassed, but not Dogknox, He trudges right along.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Dogknox
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6/13/2013 4:12:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Dogknox: "I reply.. "Christians have ALWAYS Baptized INFANTS!" This is an HISTORICAL FACT!"

Anna: Really? There were Christians in the first century. Thousands upon thousands of them. Name ONE infant who was baptized. I think your "history" will run out somewhere prior to century number 1.

I reply: ALL CHRISTIANS Baptized Infants! The only argument that arose was "WHEN"? When to baptize the INFANT!!
On birth on the eighth day of in the first month!
NO writting of CHRISTIANS saying "Do not baptize infants"!

annanicole The Great Commision is very clear>> "Baptize ALL NATIONS"!
All nations, includes INFANTS!

You ask.. Then why do SO MANY infants who are forced into what the Catholics call "baptism" - as infants, later grow up to be atheists or Protestants?

I reply.. "Baptism "ADDS" people to Jesus' holy Catholic Body!!!
Communion KEEPS them "IN IT"!

annanicole LOOK the words of God...
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

DO YOU SEE IT??
Remains in me, and I in them

You might have been saved by baptism.. But you have NOT remained in Jesus' body!
annanicole You have very long ago >>STARVED TO DEATH!!!

The person at the age of reason decides to continue IN Jesus' holy Body or they can leave!
Leaving, then they will stop eating as Adam stopped eating from the "LIFE" found on the "Tree In Paradise" when he was removed from the GARDEN he DIED he STARVED TO DEATH!!

Do you understand the meaning of the word>> "REMAIN"!
.......................
DICTIONARY DOT COM
re"main [ri-meyn] Show IPA
verb (used without object)
1.to continue in the same state; continue to be as specified: to remain at peace.
2. to stay behind or in the same place: to remain at home; I'll remain here when you go to the airport.
3. to be left after the removal, loss, destruction, etc., of all else: The front wall is all that remains of the fort.
4 to be left to be done, told, shown, etc.: Only the dishwashing remains.
5 .to be reserved or in store.
...................................

You can't REMAIN if first your were NOT ADDED!!! DUH!!
Baptism ADDS!
The lack of food removes "By DEATH of the spirit!"

55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

annanicole Run from your stinking man made church.. Trust in Jesus believe his words! Run from Satan!