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Mysterious_Stranger
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6/11/2013 10:32:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
As an atheist I am curious of how others perceive Hell or which kinds of people would be placed in Hell after death. Hell is often perceived as a place of demons and fire however I have heard the term Hell used in a metaphorical sense such as Hell being the place that people who are far from God reside. I am interested in how Hell is portrayed to different people.
Turn around, go back.
Harbinger
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6/11/2013 10:39:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hell is place the those who refuse God reside. There are many levels of hell and some worse than others. The normal description, Lake of Fire, is true. It is in a spirit place though it is hard to explain and to label it with physical humanistic terms. It is actually freedom for those who chose to reject God or ignored Him.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
MadCornishBiker
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6/11/2013 11:49:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 10:32:00 AM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
As an atheist I am curious of how others perceive Hell or which kinds of people would be placed in Hell after death. Hell is often perceived as a place of demons and fire however I have heard the term Hell used in a metaphorical sense such as Hell being the place that people who are far from God reside. I am interested in how Hell is portrayed to different people.

Guess it depends on who you believe.

The God I know, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, would not countenance something so cruel as a hell of torment.

It only really became a settled belief thanks to the Roman Catholic Church who taught the doctrine to frighten people into obedience, and it is still used that way today. That was never God's way nor is it His sons.

Fear of Hell-fire gives far too much power to Priests, and some take advantage of it, abusing women and children who dare not say "no" since the Priest, they are taught, has the keys of Heaven and Hell for them. I have known of husbands walking away and leaving their wives in bed with the Priest for exactly the same reason. So much for celibacy!

It comes from what may be a mistranslation, or simply a misunderstanding of what is meant at Revelation 20:10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The problem is that if it were a literal eternal torment how come death and Hell are also thrown into that same Lake, whihc as the scripture goes on to say "means the second death".

That means that the only way you can describe their torment as eternal is that it is the last thing they ever know, before they are destroyed completely.

So then? what is Hell, (Greek - Hades, Hebrew Sheol)?

A broad enough study of scripture indicates that it is nothiong more than the common grave of mankind into whihc all go, and in which all are completely unconscious, until they are resurrected after Armageddon.

Some see this simply as being in God's memory, so that HE can remember each of us and place our consciousness in a new perfect body when the time comes.

When going to resurrect Lazarus, who had been dead for 4 days by the time he arrived Jesus told his disciples that he was going to "waken him from sleep" The Apostles also spoke humans as being "asleep in death".

Not many will agree with me, because most like to stick to the heaven / hell belief. However it appears that Christ and the Apostles believed the same as I so I am happy with that.
Harbinger
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6/11/2013 11:55:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 11:49:13 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/11/2013 10:32:00 AM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
As an atheist I am curious of how others perceive Hell or which kinds of people would be placed in Hell after death. Hell is often perceived as a place of demons and fire however I have heard the term Hell used in a metaphorical sense such as Hell being the place that people who are far from God reside. I am interested in how Hell is portrayed to different people.

Guess it depends on who you believe.

The God I know, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, would not countenance something so cruel as a hell of torment.

It only really became a settled belief thanks to the Roman Catholic Church who taught the doctrine to frighten people into obedience, and it is still used that way today. That was never God's way nor is it His sons.


Fear of Hell-fire gives far too much power to Priests, and some take advantage of it, abusing women and children who dare not say "no" since the Priest, they are taught, has the keys of Heaven and Hell for them. I have known of husbands walking away and leaving their wives in bed with the Priest for exactly the same reason. So much for celibacy!

It comes from what may be a mistranslation, or simply a misunderstanding of what is meant at Revelation 20:10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The problem is that if it were a literal eternal torment how come death and Hell are also thrown into that same Lake, whihc as the scripture goes on to say "means the second death".

That means that the only way you can describe their torment as eternal is that it is the last thing they ever know, before they are destroyed completely.

So then? what is Hell, (Greek - Hades, Hebrew Sheol)?

A broad enough study of scripture indicates that it is nothiong more than the common grave of mankind into whihc all go, and in which all are completely unconscious, until they are resurrected after Armageddon.

Some see this simply as being in God's memory, so that HE can remember each of us and place our consciousness in a new perfect body when the time comes.

When going to resurrect Lazarus, who had been dead for 4 days by the time he arrived Jesus told his disciples that he was going to "waken him from sleep" The Apostles also spoke humans as being "asleep in death".

Not many will agree with me, because most like to stick to the heaven / hell belief. However it appears that Christ and the Apostles believed the same as I so I am happy with that.

Did they now. Ok. You most certainly are teachings falsely. Lets let the scriptures speak:

Psalm 9:17
The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Deuteronomy 32:22
For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Psalm 18:5
The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.

Psalm 116:3
The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 18:9
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

James 3:6
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

Mark 9:45
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:43
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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6/11/2013 12:04:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 10:39:59 AM, Harbinger wrote:
Hell is place the those who refuse God reside. There are many levels of hell and some worse than others. The normal description, Lake of Fire, is true. It is in a spirit place though it is hard to explain and to label it with physical humanistic terms. It is actually freedom for those who chose to reject God or ignored Him.

If that really is the case (I strongly suspect that it isn't; mainly because the free will defense for an eternal hell is weak) I wish God wouldn't have gave us that level of freedom.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/11/2013 12:06:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 12:04:56 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/11/2013 10:39:59 AM, Harbinger wrote:
Hell is place the those who refuse God reside. There are many levels of hell and some worse than others. The normal description, Lake of Fire, is true. It is in a spirit place though it is hard to explain and to label it with physical humanistic terms. It is actually freedom for those who chose to reject God or ignored Him.

If that really is the case (I strongly suspect that it isn't; mainly because the free will defense for an eternal hell is weak) I wish God wouldn't have gave us that level of freedom.

It really does not matter what you like. It is what the Bible teaches.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/11/2013 12:11:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

2Peter 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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6/11/2013 12:18:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 12:06:27 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/11/2013 12:04:56 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/11/2013 10:39:59 AM, Harbinger wrote:
Hell is place the those who refuse God reside. There are many levels of hell and some worse than others. The normal description, Lake of Fire, is true. It is in a spirit place though it is hard to explain and to label it with physical humanistic terms. It is actually freedom for those who chose to reject God or ignored Him.

If that really is the case (I strongly suspect that it isn't; mainly because the free will defense for an eternal hell is weak) I wish God wouldn't have gave us that level of freedom.

It really does not matter what you like. It is what the Bible teaches.

Good thing the bible doesn't teach that then. :D
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/11/2013 12:19:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 12:18:01 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/11/2013 12:06:27 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/11/2013 12:04:56 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/11/2013 10:39:59 AM, Harbinger wrote:
Hell is place the those who refuse God reside. There are many levels of hell and some worse than others. The normal description, Lake of Fire, is true. It is in a spirit place though it is hard to explain and to label it with physical humanistic terms. It is actually freedom for those who chose to reject God or ignored Him.

If that really is the case (I strongly suspect that it isn't; mainly because the free will defense for an eternal hell is weak) I wish God wouldn't have gave us that level of freedom.

It really does not matter what you like. It is what the Bible teaches.

Good thing the bible doesn't teach that then. :D

You better read it then.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/11/2013 12:32:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 12:11:43 PM, Harbinger wrote:
Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Yes, though they have not been put in those chains yet as far as we know, that reservation will be filled at Armageddon. However they do not go to Hell, they are simply imprisoned along with their "boss".

And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

2Peter 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Peter there is talking about before the flood, where the disobedient angels took on human for so that they could fornicate with human women.

However hell is not there described as a place of torment, nor is it anywhere else in scripture.

The Lake of fire cannot be hell, nor any level of such, since hell is thrown into it after the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign.

The Hell-fire teaching as propagated by the Catholic Church has no place in scripture nor in Christianity.

Do you honestly believe that the God who so despised the passing of children through the fire to the god Molech would countenance such a thing?

Jeremiah 32:35 Furthermore, they built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to make their sons and their daughters pass through [the fire] to Molech, a thing that I did not command them, neither did it come up into my heart to do this detestable thing, for the purpose of making Judah sin."
AlbinoBunny
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6/11/2013 12:40:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 10:39:59 AM, Harbinger wrote:
Hell is place the those who refuse God reside. There are many levels of hell and some worse than others. The normal description, Lake of Fire, is true. It is in a spirit place though it is hard to explain and to label it with physical humanistic terms. It is actually freedom for those who chose to reject God or ignored Him.



So we can get drunk and bang hot women?
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rjohnson741
Posts: 215
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6/11/2013 12:42:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 12:19:27 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/11/2013 12:18:01 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/11/2013 12:06:27 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/11/2013 12:04:56 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/11/2013 10:39:59 AM, Harbinger wrote:
Hell is place the those who refuse God reside. There are many levels of hell and some worse than others. The normal description, Lake of Fire, is true. It is in a spirit place though it is hard to explain and to label it with physical humanistic terms. It is actually freedom for those who chose to reject God or ignored Him.

If that really is the case (I strongly suspect that it isn't; mainly because the free will defense for an eternal hell is weak) I wish God wouldn't have gave us that level of freedom.

It really does not matter what you like. It is what the Bible teaches.

Good thing the bible doesn't teach that then. :D

You better read it then.

The Bible does not teach eternal torment or eternal hell. The Bible teaches the salvation of all through Jesus Christ.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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6/11/2013 12:43:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hell is the place people made up who did not like the fact that reality is unfair. Thus, a delusion was born to help people cope with injustice. If a man rapes your daughter, it would help to believe that he is going to punished when he dies even though he is not. My perception of hell, it that it stems from simple psychology. Its nice to know that even the people we haven't caught are still going to be punished. Since hell is unfalsifiable, then the belief is safe.
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/11/2013 12:48:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 12:32:16 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/11/2013 12:11:43 PM, Harbinger wrote:
Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Yes, though they have not been put in those chains yet as far as we know, that reservation will be filled at Armageddon. However they do not go to Hell, they are simply imprisoned along with their "boss".

You better read that verse again, I underlined it for you.

And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

2Peter 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Peter there is talking about before the flood, where the disobedient angels took on human for so that they could fornicate with human women.

LOL. Peter describes before the flood and the angels that sinned to warn of our possible damnation. Why dont you just through way the entire purpose of Christ why dont you.

However hell is not there described as a place of torment, nor is it anywhere else in scripture.

I provided many verse before these that does that very thing. No one can make you accept scriptures. I am not Catholic by any means. I am against the RCC but in this instance they had it right.

The Lake of fire cannot be hell, nor any level of such, since hell is thrown into it after the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign.

You said it. God throws hell into the lake of fire. lololol

The Hell-fire teaching as propagated by the Catholic Church has no place in scripture nor in Christianity.

No, your point has no where in Christianity and sure is not Biblical. You need to pray and read your Bible, again.

Do you honestly believe that the God who so despised the passing of children through the fire to the god Molech would countenance such a thing?

Absolutely, that is what they actually worship and the god they serve and they will get that. Act like God will spare people who been in whoredom with false gods. It is a nice sentiment but not in scriptures.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/11/2013 12:49:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 12:42:16 PM, rjohnson741 wrote:
At 6/11/2013 12:19:27 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/11/2013 12:18:01 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/11/2013 12:06:27 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/11/2013 12:04:56 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/11/2013 10:39:59 AM, Harbinger wrote:
Hell is place the those who refuse God reside. There are many levels of hell and some worse than others. The normal description, Lake of Fire, is true. It is in a spirit place though it is hard to explain and to label it with physical humanistic terms. It is actually freedom for those who chose to reject God or ignored Him.

If that really is the case (I strongly suspect that it isn't; mainly because the free will defense for an eternal hell is weak) I wish God wouldn't have gave us that level of freedom.

It really does not matter what you like. It is what the Bible teaches.

Good thing the bible doesn't teach that then. :D

You better read it then.

The Bible does not teach eternal torment or eternal hell. The Bible teaches the salvation of all through Jesus Christ.

Prove it. Prove it, with your assertion.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/11/2013 12:53:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Luke 16:23
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Why is there need for repentance, because of hell.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/11/2013 1:06:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I find it odd. That you all say there is no hell fire and torment and it is all over the Bible. Address the scriptures.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/11/2013 1:46:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 1:06:01 PM, Harbinger wrote:
I find it odd. That you all say there is no hell fire and torment and it is all over the Bible. Address the scriptures.

That is the whole point, it is not all of scripture in the sense you mean, and to understand it the way you do doesn't fit in with God's personality either

Your signature says that it is better to rely on God than man. Very true, and yet you rely on the understandings of a provably Apostate church or so it seems.

Since the scriptures tell us things like:

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.

Psalm 146:4 His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish.

Ezekiel 18:4 Look! All the souls"to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son"to me they belong. The soul that is sinning"it itself will die.

If as scripture assure us, the dead are unconscious how can they be tormented?

However, iIs there eternal punishment for the wicked?

Matt. 25:46, KJ: "These shall go away into everlasting punishment ["lopping off," Int; Greek, koR42;la"sin]: but the righteous into life eternal." (The Emphatic Diaglott reads "cutting-off" instead of "punishment." A footnote states: "Kolasin . . . is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. . . . 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment;"hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word. The primary signification has been adopted, because it agrees better with the second member of the sentence, thus preserving the force and beauty of the antithesis. The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death. See 2 Thess. 1.9.")

2 Thess. 1:9, RS: "They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might." ("Eternal ruin," NAB, NE; "lost eternally," JB; "condemn them to eternal punishment," Kx; "eternal punishment in destruction," Douay.)

So as you see, even the Catholics own Douay version doesn't agree with their doctrine.

Jude 7, KJV: "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." (The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah ceased burning thousands of years ago. But the effect of that fire has been lasting; the cities have not been rebuilt. God"s judgment, however, was against not merely those cities but also their wicked inhabitants. What happened to them is a warning example.

ALuke 17:29, Jesus says that they were "destroyed";

Jude 7 shows that the destruction was eternal.)

So, in the original manuscripts it was not eternal punishment but eternal destruction.

Oh dear, Scriptures 1 Catholics 0, again.
MadCornishBiker
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6/11/2013 2:32:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 12:53:49 PM, Harbinger wrote:
Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Luke 16:23
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Why is there need for repentance, because of hell.

No, there is need for repentance because we are in the wrong and not living the best way for the benefit of all humanity.

I think you need to do a bit of a comparison of translations to see what those scriptures really should say, rather than the Apostate version.

The Lake of fire, as Revelation 20 tells us, represents the second and permanent death. Since death as we know it, and Hell are thrown into it ,it cannot be a place of torment.
MadCornishBiker
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6/11/2013 2:34:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 12:43:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Hell is the place people made up who did not like the fact that reality is unfair. Thus, a delusion was born to help people cope with injustice. If a man rapes your daughter, it would help to believe that he is going to punished when he dies even though he is not. My perception of hell, it that it stems from simple psychology. Its nice to know that even the people we haven't caught are still going to be punished. Since hell is unfalsifiable, then the belief is safe.

The version of hell that the Roman Catholic Church teaches is
just that, manufactured and based o some twisted and mistranslated scripture, not on scripture itself.
Harbinger
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6/11/2013 2:50:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 1:46:05 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/11/2013 1:06:01 PM, Harbinger wrote:
I find it odd. That you all say there is no hell fire and torment and it is all over the Bible. Address the scriptures.

That is the whole point, it is not all of scripture in the sense you mean, and to understand it the way you do doesn't fit in with God's personality either

Like this?

Exodus 32:22
And Aaron said, Let not the anger of my lord wax hot: thou knowest the people, that they are set on mischief.

Numbers 12:9
And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them; and he departed.

Psalm 21:9
Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the Lord shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.

Isaiah 30:27
Behold, the name of the Lord cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:

Isaiah 66:15
For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Lamentations 4:11
The Lord hath accomplished his fury; he hath poured out his fierce anger, and hath kindled a fire in Zion, and it hath devoured the foundations thereof.

I can literally go on and on.....

Your signature says that it is better to rely on God than man. Very true, and yet you rely on the understandings of a provably Apostate church or so it seems.

No. I listen to the scriptures. Why dont you? You have not address any of the scriptures and the anger and fury of the Lord in them.

Since the scriptures tell us things like:

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.

Dead without the Lord absolutely. Why dont you explain this to us instead of just posting it? Can you?

Psalm 146:4 His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish.

Right, point!

Ezekiel 18:4 Look! All the souls"to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son"to me they belong. The soul that is sinning"it itself will die.

This did not help you one bit.

If as scripture assure us, the dead are unconscious how can they be tormented?

However, iIs there eternal punishment for the wicked?

Matt. 25:46, KJ: "These shall go away into everlasting punishment ["lopping off," Int; Greek, koR42;la"sin]: but the righteous into life eternal." (The Emphatic Diaglott reads "cutting-off" instead of "punishment." A footnote states: "Kolasin . . . is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. . . . 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment;"hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word. The primary signification has been adopted, because it agrees better with the second member of the sentence, thus preserving the force and beauty of the antithesis. The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death. See 2 Thess. 1.9.")

Have no idea how this proves your point. It proves mine.

2 Thess. 1:9, RS: "They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might." ("Eternal ruin," NAB, NE; "lost eternally," JB; "condemn them to eternal punishment," Kx; "eternal punishment in destruction," Douay.)

So as you see, even the Catholics own Douay version doesn't agree with their doctrine.

LOL, do you read what you post?

Jude 7, KJV: "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." (The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah ceased burning thousands of years ago. But the effect of that fire has been lasting; the cities have not been rebuilt. God"s judgment, however, was against not merely those cities but also their wicked inhabitants. What happened to them is a warning example.

ALuke 17:29, Jesus says that they were "destroyed";

Jude 7 shows that the destruction was eternal.)

So, in the original manuscripts it was not eternal punishment but eternal destruction.

Destruction is the concept of damage to an object. Hence, being destryoed in eternal punishment.

Oh dear, Scriptures 1 Catholics 0, again.

I am not Catholic.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/11/2013 2:51:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 2:32:52 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/11/2013 12:53:49 PM, Harbinger wrote:
Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Luke 16:23
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Why is there need for repentance, because of hell.

No, there is need for repentance because we are in the wrong and not living the best way for the benefit of all humanity.

I think you need to do a bit of a comparison of translations to see what those scriptures really should say, rather than the Apostate version.

The Lake of fire, as Revelation 20 tells us, represents the second and permanent death. Since death as we know it, and Hell are thrown into it ,it cannot be a place of torment.

When will you support that though?
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/11/2013 2:52:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 2:34:55 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/11/2013 12:43:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Hell is the place people made up who did not like the fact that reality is unfair. Thus, a delusion was born to help people cope with injustice. If a man rapes your daughter, it would help to believe that he is going to punished when he dies even though he is not. My perception of hell, it that it stems from simple psychology. Its nice to know that even the people we haven't caught are still going to be punished. Since hell is unfalsifiable, then the belief is safe.

The version of hell that the Roman Catholic Church teaches is
just that, manufactured and based o some twisted and mistranslated scripture, not on scripture itself.

LOLOLOLOL. Ok dude. What Bible do you use? These new versions? These manipulated ones?
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Dogknox
Posts: 5,051
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6/11/2013 2:54:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 2:34:55 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/11/2013 12:43:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Hell is the place people made up who did not like the fact that reality is unfair. Thus, a delusion was born to help people cope with injustice. If a man rapes your daughter, it would help to believe that he is going to punished when he dies even though he is not. My perception of hell, it that it stems from simple psychology. Its nice to know that even the people we haven't caught are still going to be punished. Since hell is unfalsifiable, then the belief is safe.

The version of hell that the Roman Catholic Church teaches is
just that, manufactured and based o some twisted and mistranslated scripture, not on scripture itself.
SCRIPTURES..
Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Mark 3:29
but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin."
..................................
DICTIONARY DOT COM
e"ter"nal [ih-tur-nl] Show IPA
adjective
1. without beginning or end; lasting forever; always existing ( opposed to temporal ): eternal life.
2. perpetual; ceaseless; endless: eternal quarreling; eternal chatter.
3. enduring; immutable: eternal principles.
4. Metaphysics . existing outside all relations of time; not subject to change.
noun
5. something that is eternal.
6. the Eternal, God.

......................................

Matthew 3:12
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, "Raca," is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, "You fool!" will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Mark 9:48
where ""the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched."

Ignatius of Antioch
CHRISTIANS have always taught the Fires of Hell will never ever go out!!
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1"2 [A.D. 110]).

Second Clement said..
Note the early date...
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

Clearly the "Watch Tower" is anti-Christian.. working for Satan they teach.. "DO IT... You will never be punished forever!!"

Justin Martyr is NOT Jehovah's Witness...
He is CHRISTIAN..
He said..
"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).

Scriptures the Early Church Father, CHRISTIANS and all LOGIC says the "Watch Tower" works for Satan!

LOGIC ALONE SAYS... If there is ETERNAL LIFE.. then there is Eternal Punishment! Eternal LIFE in Hell as Satan cannot die!

SCRIPTURES ALONE say.. "Jesus cannot LIE"!
Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

MadCornishBiker Run from all Whack-Ooooh's, run fro your life from the "Watch Tower"!
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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6/11/2013 2:55:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 2:54:02 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 6/11/2013 2:34:55 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/11/2013 12:43:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Hell is the place people made up who did not like the fact that reality is unfair. Thus, a delusion was born to help people cope with injustice. If a man rapes your daughter, it would help to believe that he is going to punished when he dies even though he is not. My perception of hell, it that it stems from simple psychology. Its nice to know that even the people we haven't caught are still going to be punished. Since hell is unfalsifiable, then the belief is safe.

The version of hell that the Roman Catholic Church teaches is
just that, manufactured and based o some twisted and mistranslated scripture, not on scripture itself.
SCRIPTURES..
Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Mark 3:29
but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin."
..................................
DICTIONARY DOT COM
e"ter"nal [ih-tur-nl] Show IPA
adjective
1. without beginning or end; lasting forever; always existing ( opposed to temporal ): eternal life.
2. perpetual; ceaseless; endless: eternal quarreling; eternal chatter.
3. enduring; immutable: eternal principles.
4. Metaphysics . existing outside all relations of time; not subject to change.
noun
5. something that is eternal.
6. the Eternal, God.

......................................

Matthew 3:12
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, "Raca," is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, "You fool!" will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Mark 9:48
where ""the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched."

Ignatius of Antioch
CHRISTIANS have always taught the Fires of Hell will never ever go out!!
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1"2 [A.D. 110]).

Second Clement said..
Note the early date...
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

Clearly the "Watch Tower" is anti-Christian.. working for Satan they teach.. "DO IT... You will never be punished forever!!"

Justin Martyr is NOT Jehovah's Witness...
He is CHRISTIAN..
He said..
"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).

Scriptures the Early Church Father, CHRISTIANS and all LOGIC says the "Watch Tower" works for Satan!

LOGIC ALONE SAYS... If there is ETERNAL LIFE.. then there is Eternal Punishment! Eternal LIFE in Hell as Satan cannot die!

SCRIPTURES ALONE say.. "Jesus cannot LIE"!
Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

MadCornishBiker Run from all Whack-Ooooh's, run fro your life from the "Watch Tower"!

All metaphors bro, all metaphors.
Suqua
Posts: 433
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6/12/2013 11:23:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 11:55:35 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/11/2013 11:49:13 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/11/2013 10:32:00 AM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
As an atheist I am curious of how others perceive Hell or which kinds of people would be placed in Hell after death. Hell is often perceived as a place of demons and fire however I have heard the term Hell used in a metaphorical sense such as Hell being the place that people who are far from God reside. I am interested in how Hell is portrayed to different people.

Guess it depends on who you believe.

The God I know, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, would not countenance something so cruel as a hell of torment.

It only really became a settled belief thanks to the Roman Catholic Church who taught the doctrine to frighten people into obedience, and it is still used that way today. That was never God's way nor is it His sons.


Fear of Hell-fire gives far too much power to Priests, and some take advantage of it, abusing women and children who dare not say "no" since the Priest, they are taught, has the keys of Heaven and Hell for them. I have known of husbands walking away and leaving their wives in bed with the Priest for exactly the same reason. So much for celibacy!

It comes from what may be a mistranslation, or simply a misunderstanding of what is meant at Revelation 20:10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The problem is that if it were a literal eternal torment how come death and Hell are also thrown into that same Lake, whihc as the scripture goes on to say "means the second death".

That means that the only way you can describe their torment as eternal is that it is the last thing they ever know, before they are destroyed completely.

So then? what is Hell, (Greek - Hades, Hebrew Sheol)?

A broad enough study of scripture indicates that it is nothiong more than the common grave of mankind into whihc all go, and in which all are completely unconscious, until they are resurrected after Armageddon.

Some see this simply as being in God's memory, so that HE can remember each of us and place our consciousness in a new perfect body when the time comes.

When going to resurrect Lazarus, who had been dead for 4 days by the time he arrived Jesus told his disciples that he was going to "waken him from sleep" The Apostles also spoke humans as being "asleep in death".

Not many will agree with me, because most like to stick to the heaven / hell belief. However it appears that Christ and the Apostles believed the same as I so I am happy with that.

Did they now. Ok. You most certainly are teachings falsely. Lets let the scriptures speak:

Psalm 9:17
The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Deuteronomy 32:22
For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Psalm 18:5
The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.

Psalm 116:3
The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 18:9
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

James 3:6
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

Mark 9:45
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:43
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

How about more scripture? Like the one that says that Sodom and Gommorah received the punishment of eternal fire. I don't see any fire going on their. I'll bring out more after. I need to go to work.
Harbinger
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6/12/2013 11:28:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/12/2013 11:23:55 AM, Suqua wrote:

How about more scripture? Like the one that says that Sodom and Gommorah received the punishment of eternal fire. I don't see any fire going on their. I'll bring out more after. I need to go to work.

I believe that the adjective "eternal" does not only refer to the duration of the fire of Sodom, but rather to the kind of fire that was used.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/12/2013 12:15:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/12/2013 11:28:48 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/12/2013 11:23:55 AM, Suqua wrote:

How about more scripture? Like the one that says that Sodom and Gommorah received the punishment of eternal fire. I don't see any fire going on their. I'll bring out more after. I need to go to work.

I believe that the adjective "eternal" does not only refer to the duration of the fire of Sodom, but rather to the kind of fire that was used.

I would say that in this case "eternal" applies to the fact that the effect of that fire will never be reversed. In fact the bible uses the word eternal in that sense very frequently, especially when talking of judgements.