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The genesis myth

ATHOS
Posts: 123
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6/17/2013 3:29:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
So God goes on and creates Adam and then gets him a date, Eve. Life is paradise. But, God gives them this one rule: Do anything you want kids, knock yourselves out, but don't you dare eat the fruit from that tree of knowledge over there. So the serpent does its thing, Eve takes a bite and tempts Adam just so you can blame women for everything, and then Adam takes a bite. Now there's hell to pay. Big angry Maker kicks Adam and Eve out of paradise. He even tells Eve that she's going to suffer terrible pain during child birth just for good measure. That'll teach her! But wait just a minute here. If God is God, then wouldn't He be perfect? And if He is perfect, then wouldn't He know everything? So if God is God and He knows everything, then what has He done here? Well, apparently God has set up His own children to fail just so He can have the pleasure of ruthlessly punishing them for a scenario which He Himself set into motion.
What can be expected from insane premises except an insane conclusion? The way to undo an insane conclusion is to consider the sanity of the premises on which it rests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How long will contradiction stand when its impossible nature is clearly revealed?
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/17/2013 3:46:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/17/2013 3:29:25 AM, ATHOS wrote:
So God goes on and creates Adam and then gets him a date, Eve. Life is paradise. But, God gives them this one rule: Do anything you want kids, knock yourselves out, but don't you dare eat the fruit from that tree of knowledge over there. So the serpent does its thing, Eve takes a bite and tempts Adam just so you can blame women for everything, and then Adam takes a bite. Now there's hell to pay. Big angry Maker kicks Adam and Eve out of paradise. He even tells Eve that she's going to suffer terrible pain during child birth just for good measure. That'll teach her! But wait just a minute here. If God is God, then wouldn't He be perfect? And if He is perfect, then wouldn't He know everything? So if God is God and He knows everything, then what has He done here? Well, apparently God has set up His own children to fail just so He can have the pleasure of ruthlessly punishing them for a scenario which He Himself set into motion.

You are either WSA or DDave. Which?
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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6/17/2013 4:04:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/17/2013 3:29:25 AM, ATHOS wrote:
So God goes on and creates Adam and then gets him a date, Eve. Life is paradise. But, God gives them this one rule: Do anything you want kids, knock yourselves out, but don't you dare eat the fruit from that tree of knowledge over there. So the serpent does its thing, Eve takes a bite and tempts Adam just so you can blame women for everything, and then Adam takes a bite. Now there's hell to pay. Big angry Maker kicks Adam and Eve out of paradise. He even tells Eve that she's going to suffer terrible pain during child birth just for good measure. That'll teach her! But wait just a minute here. If God is God, then wouldn't He be perfect? And if He is perfect, then wouldn't He know everything? So if God is God and He knows everything, then what has He done here? Well, apparently God has set up His own children to fail just so He can have the pleasure of ruthlessly punishing them for a scenario which He Himself set into motion.
Don't be silly. He did that shite so he could torture and murder himself. Masochism anyone?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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6/17/2013 7:59:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/17/2013 3:29:25 AM, ATHOS wrote:
So God goes on and creates Adam and then gets him a date, Eve. Life is paradise. But, God gives them this one rule: Do anything you want kids, knock yourselves out, but don't you dare eat the fruit from that tree of knowledge over there. So the serpent does its thing, Eve takes a bite and tempts Adam just so you can blame women for everything, and then Adam takes a bite. Now there's hell to pay. Big angry Maker kicks Adam and Eve out of paradise. He even tells Eve that she's going to suffer terrible pain during child birth just for good measure. That'll teach her! But wait just a minute here. If God is God, then wouldn't He be perfect? And if He is perfect, then wouldn't He know everything? So if God is God and He knows everything, then what has He done here? Well, apparently God has set up His own children to fail just so He can have the pleasure of ruthlessly punishing them for a scenario which He Himself set into motion.

Naw, it's just a story about how for humans good enough is never enough.
drhead
Posts: 1,475
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6/17/2013 11:11:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/17/2013 3:29:25 AM, ATHOS wrote:
So God goes on and creates Adam and then gets him a date, Eve. Life is paradise. But, God gives them this one rule: Do anything you want kids, knock yourselves out, but don't you dare eat the fruit from that tree of knowledge over there. So the serpent does its thing, Eve takes a bite and tempts Adam just so you can blame women for everything, and then Adam takes a bite. Now there's hell to pay. Big angry Maker kicks Adam and Eve out of paradise. He even tells Eve that she's going to suffer terrible pain during child birth just for good measure. That'll teach her! But wait just a minute here. If God is God, then wouldn't He be perfect? And if He is perfect, then wouldn't He know everything? So if God is God and He knows everything, then what has He done here? Well, apparently God has set up His own children to fail just so He can have the pleasure of ruthlessly punishing them for a scenario which He Himself set into motion.

Why did he create the serpent and the tree in the first place?
Wall of Fail

"You reject religion... calling it a sickness, to what ends??? Are you a Homosexual??" - Dogknox
"For me, Evolution is a zombie theory. I mean imaginary cartoons and wishful thinking support it?" - Dragonfang
"There are no mental health benefits of atheism. It is devoid of rational thinking and mental protection." - Gabrian
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/17/2013 12:34:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/17/2013 3:29:25 AM, ATHOS wrote:
So God goes on and creates Adam and then gets him a date, Eve. Life is paradise. But, God gives them this one rule: Do anything you want kids, knock yourselves out, but don't you dare eat the fruit from that tree of knowledge over there. So the serpent does its thing, Eve takes a bite and tempts Adam just so you can blame women for everything, and then Adam takes a bite. Now there's hell to pay. Big angry Maker kicks Adam and Eve out of paradise. He even tells Eve that she's going to suffer terrible pain during child birth just for good measure. That'll teach her! But wait just a minute here. If God is God, then wouldn't He be perfect? And if He is perfect, then wouldn't He know everything? So if God is God and He knows everything, then what has He done here? Well, apparently God has set up His own children to fail just so He can have the pleasure of ruthlessly punishing them for a scenario which He Himself set into motion.

Perfect? Yes God is perfect. He is also all powerful so He could know anything HE chooses, do anything He chooses.

But that is the whole point. Whilst He could, if He chose, know our every thought, he not only gave us free will He expected us to use wisely, He also allows us the privacy of our own heads.

He will only invade our thoughts if we ask Him to, and not always then.

Satan, on the other hands has no such moral limitation, nor does he allow us any privacy, so he knows more about us than we do.

Yes God could have known what was going to happen before it did, he may even have had it in the back of His mind as a possibility I don't know. However He chose to trust Adam and Eve, as He had already trusted Satan. It is not His fault that they all let Him down.

All I know is that when it did happen:

He gave Adam time to ask Him for help.

When Adam failed he first asked them what they had done to again give them chance to admit it.

When even that failed He set an alternative plan in motion, warned Adam and Eve how things would be for them, and told Satan that he had time to prove his case but would eventually be proven wrong, and then destroyed.

He then set a fixed time for the "trial" to continue, and we are now near the end of that fixed time.

There are no myths in scripture.

Genesis 1 is told in Chronological order, Genesis 2 is not but is told in the order that Adam discovered or was shown them.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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6/17/2013 2:19:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/17/2013 3:29:25 AM, ATHOS wrote:
So God goes on and creates Adam and then gets him a date, Eve. Life is paradise. But, God gives them this one rule: Do anything you want kids, knock yourselves out, but don't you dare eat the fruit from that tree of knowledge over there. So the serpent does its thing, Eve takes a bite and tempts Adam just so you can blame women for everything, and then Adam takes a bite. Now there's hell to pay. Big angry Maker kicks Adam and Eve out of paradise. He even tells Eve that she's going to suffer terrible pain during child birth just for good measure. That'll teach her! But wait just a minute here. If God is God, then wouldn't He be perfect? And if He is perfect, then wouldn't He know everything? So if God is God and He knows everything, then what has He done here? Well, apparently God has set up His own children to fail just so He can have the pleasure of ruthlessly punishing them for a scenario which He Himself set into motion.

I would agree that if there is some type of God, he is self-evidently not perfect based on the world we live in. Also, yes, if God is omniscient then he would know all possibilities pertaining to a certain scenario. Therefore, we have to believe that a perfect being picked this scenario, over another. Which is, obviously, inconceivable.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/17/2013 3:14:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/17/2013 2:19:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/17/2013 3:29:25 AM, ATHOS wrote:
So God goes on and creates Adam and then gets him a date, Eve. Life is paradise. But, God gives them this one rule: Do anything you want kids, knock yourselves out, but don't you dare eat the fruit from that tree of knowledge over there. So the serpent does its thing, Eve takes a bite and tempts Adam just so you can blame women for everything, and then Adam takes a bite. Now there's hell to pay. Big angry Maker kicks Adam and Eve out of paradise. He even tells Eve that she's going to suffer terrible pain during child birth just for good measure. That'll teach her! But wait just a minute here. If God is God, then wouldn't He be perfect? And if He is perfect, then wouldn't He know everything? So if God is God and He knows everything, then what has He done here? Well, apparently God has set up His own children to fail just so He can have the pleasure of ruthlessly punishing them for a scenario which He Himself set into motion.

I would agree that if there is some type of God, he is self-evidently not perfect based on the world we live in. Also, yes, if God is omniscient then he would know all possibilities pertaining to a certain scenario. Therefore, we have to believe that a perfect being picked this scenario, over another. Which is, obviously, inconceivable.

All that tells me is how little you know about the story of the Bible, and that taught by Christ and the Apostles.

OK so a brief resume, all of which is in scripture despite what you are told.

First there was God.

Then he created a spirit son, and that spirit son worked with Him in creating everything else.

Finally Adam was created, and then at some later time Eve was created as a wife for him.

God had given His spirit creation and mankind free will, which He expected all to operate wisely, however one Angel didn't. He wanted some of what he saw in the Garden of Eden for himself and fooled Eve into breaking the one simple rule they were given.

Having done that he watched Adam also break that rule, instead of calling to God for help to sort the situation out, as he should have.

God gave them a short while to call for His help, but they didn't so He approached them in the Garden, and since Adam showed no repentance, he told them that the sentence would be carried out and put what I call "plan B" in action.

He also warned Satan what would happen to him.

Why did He not wipe Satan out? All that would prove was that God was a bully, and anyway, for justice to be perfect it has to be given to the guilty as well as the innocent, so God set a period of time for Satan to prove the challenge he made that mankind would never serve God willingly.

During that time He was not idle, or at least His son wasn't, working on his Father's instructions and behalf.

Slowly God sorted out a faithful man to start a Nation from, Abraham.

He gave that Nation, Israel, a special place in His creation, Gave them a Law Code, and when they insisted on it, gave them a human king also.

However they never leased their lessons, and time and again proved unfaithful, often being led astray by the very ones who should be guiding them on the right path.
He sent them prophets to guide them, but they ignored them or even killed them.

He finally allowed His son to come to earth as a human, but they killed him also and were rejected for that.

Jesus pr"cised that well at Matthew 21:33-46 "33 "Hear another illustration: There was a man, a householder, who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and erected a tower, and let it out to cultivators, and traveled abroad. 34 When the season of the fruits came around, he dispatched his slaves to the cultivators to get his fruits. 35 However, the cultivators took his slaves, and one they beat up, another they killed, another they stoned. 36 Again he dispatched other slaves, more than the first, but they did the same to these. 37 Lastly he dispatched his son to them, saying, "They will respect my son." 38 On seeing the son the cultivators said among themselves, "This is the heir; come, let us kill him and get his inheritance!" 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40 Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those cultivators?" 41 They said to him: "Because they are evil, he will bring an evil destruction+ upon them and will let out the vineyard to other cultivators, who will render him the fruits when they become due."
42 Jesus said to them: "Did YOU never read in the Scriptures, "The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes"? 43 This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits. 44 Also, the person falling upon this stone will be shattered. As for anyone upon whom it falls, it will pulverize him."
45 Now when the chief priests and the Pharisees had heard his illustrations, they took note that he was speaking about them. 46 But, although they were seeking to seize him, they feared the crowds, because these held him to be a prophet."

As you can see, the scribes and Pharisees recognised the truth of what he was saying and were not happy about it.

We are nearing the end of that set period now. Satan was, apparently about 150 years ago, ejected from Heaven to the vicinity of the earth, and as scripture tells us that means "woe for the earth". Revelation 12: 10-12 And I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
"Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time."

Satan had already been described by Christ as "the ruler of the world" and that backs up the fact that when tempting Jesus in the wilderness he had been able to offer Christ "all the kingdoms of the earth" for one act of sacrifice, which of Course Christ refused.

The Apostle Paul later referred to Satan as "The God of this system of things",

However Satan's tenure is soon to come to an end. Armageddon will be the start of it, the final test will be the end of it, and everything on earth will be brought back to God's original plan.

After Armageddon, all who have ever lived on the earth will be brought back in the resurrection. Back to perfect human bodies and, once again as with Adam, the chance of eternal life in perfect health. They will also be taught God's few requirements. What happens at the final test will literally be determined by how they have used that second chance.

That is the distinctly potted story of scripture, from Genesis to Revelation.

Simple, logical, and fits the historical evidence as well.

Justice is being done, and will soon have been seen to have been done, to the guilty and the innocent alike.
llamainmypocket
Posts: 253
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6/17/2013 3:25:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/17/2013 3:29:25 AM, ATHOS wrote:
So God goes on and creates Adam and then gets him a date, Eve. Life is paradise. But, God gives them this one rule: Do anything you want kids, knock yourselves out, but don't you dare eat the fruit from that tree of knowledge over there. So the serpent does its thing, Eve takes a bite and tempts Adam just so you can blame women for everything, and then Adam takes a bite. Now there's hell to pay. Big angry Maker kicks Adam and Eve out of paradise. He even tells Eve that she's going to suffer terrible pain during child birth just for good measure. That'll teach her! But wait just a minute here. If God is God, then wouldn't He be perfect? And if He is perfect, then wouldn't He know everything? So if God is God and He knows everything, then what has He done here? Well, apparently God has set up His own children to fail just so He can have the pleasure of ruthlessly punishing them for a scenario which He Himself set into motion.

It's an invalid argument that a finite being who's existence is confined within ignorance can criticize an all knowing and all present being.

Also,It would stand to reason that if you knew everything that you would do the exact same thing.

Do I pretend to understand God? Nope, that would be stupid. You may have your opinion but your argument is invalid.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/17/2013 4:01:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/17/2013 3:25:44 PM, llamainmypocket wrote:
At 6/17/2013 3:29:25 AM, ATHOS wrote:
So God goes on and creates Adam and then gets him a date, Eve. Life is paradise. But, God gives them this one rule: Do anything you want kids, knock yourselves out, but don't you dare eat the fruit from that tree of knowledge over there. So the serpent does its thing, Eve takes a bite and tempts Adam just so you can blame women for everything, and then Adam takes a bite. Now there's hell to pay. Big angry Maker kicks Adam and Eve out of paradise. He even tells Eve that she's going to suffer terrible pain during child birth just for good measure. That'll teach her! But wait just a minute here. If God is God, then wouldn't He be perfect? And if He is perfect, then wouldn't He know everything? So if God is God and He knows everything, then what has He done here? Well, apparently God has set up His own children to fail just so He can have the pleasure of ruthlessly punishing them for a scenario which He Himself set into motion.

It's an invalid argument that a finite being who's existence is confined within ignorance can criticize an all knowing and all present being.

Also,It would stand to reason that if you knew everything that you would do the exact same thing.

Do I pretend to understand God? Nope, that would be stupid. You may have your opinion but your argument is invalid.

Actually it is not stupid, because Jesus made understanding his Father, and himself a condition of everlasting life, so if you don't understand Him, and it is very obvious that you don't, you will never get close to the truth.

Therefore not coming to understand God is what is stupid.

You spend too much time listening to men who should, and in some cases probably do, know better.
crossfade102495
Posts: 25
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6/17/2013 5:31:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
MadCornishBiker:

Besides the fact that you should be FAR more concise with your responses, I feel compelled to tell you that there was not a shred of historical evidence outside of the Bible in any of your replies.

Modern historians do not accept the Bible as a valid source of historical information for many reasons. Here are just a few....
-There is no proof outside of the Bible that the Israelites were enslaved by Egypt.
-Jesus's life was not documented by the Romans (one of the best record-keepers of that time).
-The crucifixion of Jesus was not documented by the Romans.
-We know the Genesis account of creation is BS. Evolution is proven quite thoroughly.
-The Bible mistakenly says that the Earth is flat. (Isaiah 11:12, Revelation 7:1, Job 38:13, Matthew 4:8)
-The Bible claims that the Earth does not move in the "firmament," and that the sun revolves around the Earth. (Psalm 104:5, Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10, Ecclesiastes 1:5)
-God supposedly led the Israelites through the land of the Philistines, hundreds of years before the Philistines were established in Canaan.
-It took the Israelites 40 years to travel from Egypt to Canaan, yet such a journey, even at that time, would have taken no more than a few weeks.
-The Bible claims that unicorns exist. (Seriously, Numbers 23:22)

That's only a VERY small and partial list. The Bible contains a massive number of scientific absurdities and historical inaccuracies. Not exactly the work of an omniscient being, if you ask me.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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6/17/2013 6:08:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/17/2013 3:14:43 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/17/2013 2:19:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/17/2013 3:29:25 AM, ATHOS wrote:
So God goes on and creates Adam and then gets him a date, Eve. Life is paradise. But, God gives them this one rule: Do anything you want kids, knock yourselves out, but don't you dare eat the fruit from that tree of knowledge over there. So the serpent does its thing, Eve takes a bite and tempts Adam just so you can blame women for everything, and then Adam takes a bite. Now there's hell to pay. Big angry Maker kicks Adam and Eve out of paradise. He even tells Eve that she's going to suffer terrible pain during child birth just for good measure. That'll teach her! But wait just a minute here. If God is God, then wouldn't He be perfect? And if He is perfect, then wouldn't He know everything? So if God is God and He knows everything, then what has He done here? Well, apparently God has set up His own children to fail just so He can have the pleasure of ruthlessly punishing them for a scenario which He Himself set into motion.

I would agree that if there is some type of God, he is self-evidently not perfect based on the world we live in. Also, yes, if God is omniscient then he would know all possibilities pertaining to a certain scenario. Therefore, we have to believe that a perfect being picked this scenario, over another. Which is, obviously, inconceivable.

All that tells me is how little you know about the story of the Bible, and that taught by Christ and the Apostles.

OK so a brief resume, all of which is in scripture despite what you are told.

First there was God.

Then he created a spirit son, and that spirit son worked with Him in creating everything else.

Finally Adam was created, and then at some later time Eve was created as a wife for him.

God had given His spirit creation and mankind free will, which He expected all to operate wisely, however one Angel didn't. He wanted some of what he saw in the Garden of Eden for himself and fooled Eve into breaking the one simple rule they were given.

Having done that he watched Adam also break that rule, instead of calling to God for help to sort the situation out, as he should have.

God gave them a short while to call for His help, but they didn't so He approached them in the Garden, and since Adam showed no repentance, he told them that the sentence would be carried out and put what I call "plan B" in action.

He also warned Satan what would happen to him.

Why did He not wipe Satan out? All that would prove was that God was a bully, and anyway, for justice to be perfect it has to be given to the guilty as well as the innocent, so God set a period of time for Satan to prove the challenge he made that mankind would never serve God willingly.

During that time He was not idle, or at least His son wasn't, working on his Father's instructions and behalf.

Slowly God sorted out a faithful man to start a Nation from, Abraham.

He gave that Nation, Israel, a special place in His creation, Gave them a Law Code, and when they insisted on it, gave them a human king also.

However they never leased their lessons, and time and again proved unfaithful, often being led astray by the very ones who should be guiding them on the right path.
He sent them prophets to guide them, but they ignored them or even killed them.

He finally allowed His son to come to earth as a human, but they killed him also and were rejected for that.

Jesus pr"cised that well at Matthew 21:33-46 "33 "Hear another illustration: There was a man, a householder, who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and erected a tower, and let it out to cultivators, and traveled abroad. 34 When the season of the fruits came around, he dispatched his slaves to the cultivators to get his fruits. 35 However, the cultivators took his slaves, and one they beat up, another they killed, another they stoned. 36 Again he dispatched other slaves, more than the first, but they did the same to these. 37 Lastly he dispatched his son to them, saying, "They will respect my son." 38 On seeing the son the cultivators said among themselves, "This is the heir; come, let us kill him and get his inheritance!" 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40 Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those cultivators?" 41 They said to him: "Because they are evil, he will bring an evil destruction+ upon them and will let out the vineyard to other cultivators, who will render him the fruits when they become due."
42 Jesus said to them: "Did YOU never read in the Scriptures, "The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes"? 43 This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits. 44 Also, the person falling upon this stone will be shattered. As for anyone upon whom it falls, it will pulverize him."
45 Now when the chief priests and the Pharisees had heard his illustrations, they took note that he was speaking about them. 46 But, although they were seeking to seize him, they feared the crowds, because these held him to be a prophet."

As you can see, the scribes and Pharisees recognised the truth of what he was saying and were not happy about it.

We are nearing the end of that set period now. Satan was, apparently about 150 years ago, ejected from Heaven to the vicinity of the earth, and as scripture tells us that means "woe for the earth". Revelation 12: 10-12 And I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
"Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time."

Satan had already been described by Christ as "the ruler of the world" and that backs up the fact that when tempting Jesus in the wilderness he had been able to offer Christ "all the kingdoms of the earth" for one act of sacrifice, which of Course Christ refused.

The Apostle Paul later referred to Satan as "The God of this system of things",

However Satan's tenure is soon to come to an end. Armageddon will be the start of it, the final test will be the end of it, and everything on earth will be brought back to God's original plan.

After Armageddon, all who have ever lived on the earth will be brought back in the resurrection. Back to perfect human bodies and, once again as with Adam, the chance of eternal life in perfect health. They will also be taught God's few requirements. What happens at the final test will literally be determined by how they have used that second chance.

That is the distinctly potted story of scripture, from Genesis to Revelation.

Simple, logical, and fits the historical evidence as well.

Justice is being done, and will soon have been seen to have been done, to the guilty and the innocent alike.

Your whole post was a red herring, and did not address what I said.
llamainmypocket
Posts: 253
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6/17/2013 6:35:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/17/2013 4:01:33 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/17/2013 3:25:44 PM, llamainmypocket wrote:
At 6/17/2013 3:29:25 AM, ATHOS wrote:
So God goes on and creates Adam and then gets him a date, Eve. Life is paradise. But, God gives them this one rule: Do anything you want kids, knock yourselves out, but don't you dare eat the fruit from that tree of knowledge over there. So the serpent does its thing, Eve takes a bite and tempts Adam just so you can blame women for everything, and then Adam takes a bite. Now there's hell to pay. Big angry Maker kicks Adam and Eve out of paradise. He even tells Eve that she's going to suffer terrible pain during child birth just for good measure. That'll teach her! But wait just a minute here. If God is God, then wouldn't He be perfect? And if He is perfect, then wouldn't He know everything? So if God is God and He knows everything, then what has He done here? Well, apparently God has set up His own children to fail just so He can have the pleasure of ruthlessly punishing them for a scenario which He Himself set into motion.

It's an invalid argument that a finite being who's existence is confined within ignorance can criticize an all knowing and all present being.

Also,It would stand to reason that if you knew everything that you would do the exact same thing.

Do I pretend to understand God? Nope, that would be stupid. You may have your opinion but your argument is invalid.

Actually it is not stupid, because Jesus made understanding his Father, and himself a condition of everlasting life, so if you don't understand Him, and it is very obvious that you don't, you will never get close to the truth.

Therefore not coming to understand God is what is stupid.

You spend too much time listening to men who should, and in some cases probably do, know better.

I'm not in a position to postulate the meaning of scripture but assuming a word is universally constant in meaning seems inconsistent with the world around us. I would propose that understand is relative to the context in which it is used.

Can it be said that understand within that context of its use is consistent with the Understand of the criticism? Does God require that I understand all of his actions or does he require that I understand a part which is implied?

You are correct that I do not know him and I will congratulate you on good inductive reasoning. I call myself agnostic.
llamainmypocket
Posts: 253
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6/17/2013 6:42:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/17/2013 5:31:36 PM, crossfade102495 wrote:
MadCornishBiker:


Besides the fact that you should be FAR more concise with your responses, I feel compelled to tell you that there was not a shred of historical evidence outside of the Bible in any of your replies.

Modern historians do not accept the Bible as a valid source of historical information for many reasons. Here are just a few....
-There is no proof outside of the Bible that the Israelites were enslaved by Egypt.
-Jesus's life was not documented by the Romans (one of the best record-keepers of that time).
-The crucifixion of Jesus was not documented by the Romans.
-We know the Genesis account of creation is BS. Evolution is proven quite thoroughly.
-The Bible mistakenly says that the Earth is flat. (Isaiah 11:12, Revelation 7:1, Job 38:13, Matthew 4:8)
-The Bible claims that the Earth does not move in the "firmament," and that the sun revolves around the Earth. (Psalm 104:5, Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10, Ecclesiastes 1:5)
-God supposedly led the Israelites through the land of the Philistines, hundreds of years before the Philistines were established in Canaan.
-It took the Israelites 40 years to travel from Egypt to Canaan, yet such a journey, even at that time, would have taken no more than a few weeks.
-The Bible claims that unicorns exist. (Seriously, Numbers 23:22)

That's only a VERY small and partial list. The Bible contains a massive number of scientific absurdities and historical inaccuracies. Not exactly the work of an omniscient being, if you ask me.

There isn't proof of anything and evidence is subjective. Your interpretation of both the bible and what you perceive to be cosmology and evolution are founded in reason. Reason is a philosophy that makes inferences from premises. You can't derive truth from reason anymore than you can derive blood from stone. You can only derive what is reasonable from reasoning.
MadCornishBiker
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6/17/2013 6:51:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/17/2013 5:31:36 PM, crossfade102495 wrote

:Besides the fact that you should be FAR more concise with your responses, I feel compelled to tell you that there was not a shred of historical evidence outside of the Bible in any of your replies.

Not quite true, some of my replies have, where necessary, cited books such as "The Bible as History" by Werner Keller.

The British Museum alone has more than enough evidence not only of the Bible's historical accuracy, but also of it's prophetic accuracy.

Even recent history (last 150 years) underlines, in the eyes of those of us open minded enough to see it, the accuracy of prophecy aimed at our time..

The massive and inexplicably sudden advancement of mankind over the last 150 years or so, the vast majority of which has put the planet and the human race in danger of extinction and lost us dozens of species daily is fairly compelling if circumstantial evidence that Satan was indeed cast down to the vicinity of the earth, as prophesied, about 150 years ago. Right on schedule.Not only that but it is also evidence of the reason that Revelation tells us that soon God will "bring to ruin those ruining the earth".

Yes, maybe I do need to be more succinct, not something I am very good at I admit. I am always afraid I will leave out something important.
:
Modern historians do not accept the Bible as a valid source of historical information for many reasons. Here are just a few....
-There is no proof outside of the Bible that the Israelites were enslaved by Egypt.

Werner Keller would not agree with you on that.

: -Jesus's life was not documented by the Romans (one of the best record-keepers of that time).

Why would they? I am sure there are many other thigns that weren't documented by them. For instance they leave us very little information about Cleopatra, as I found when I had to study her for an Open University course.

They were well known for not documenting anything that made them look bad.

: -The crucifixion of Jesus was not documented by the Romans.

I wonder how many of the thousands of people they killed as criminals were documented? Very few I suspect. As far as they were concerned Christ was no different.

: -We know the Genesis account of creation is BS. Evolution is proven quite thoroughly.

In fact the opposite is true. Evolution so far has only succeeded in proving adaptation within defined kinds, that does not contradict the bible account at all when read properly. In fact it supports it.

Try reading "The Design Revolution" by William B Dembski, for one.

-The Bible mistakenly says that the Earth is flat.

Does it?

Isaiah 11:12, "And he will certainly raise up a signal for the nations and gather the dispersed ones of Israel; and the scattered ones of Judah he will collect together from the four extremities of the earth."

That does not say that the earth is flat any more than it says it is square, we still use the expression "the four corners of the earth" today.

Revelation 7:1 "After this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow upon the earth or upon the sea or upon any tree."

Oh come on. See above explanation.

Job 38:13 "To take hold on the extremities of the earth, That the wicked ones might be shaken out from it?"

Where does that say that the earth is flat? It is simply using poetic language, as it often does.

Matthew 4:8 "Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory,"

That says nothing definite about the shape of the earth. In fact the only way that it would be possible for Satan to do that would be in vision, probably one after the other.

: -The Bible claims that the Earth does not move in the "firmament," and that the sun revolves around the Earth.

Again does it?

Psalm 104:5 "He has founded the earth upon its established places; It will not be made to totter to time indefinite, or forever."

You are reading into that what you want to see. Totter means fall or become unstable, it says nothing about the firmament whatever. All that is saying is that the earth will always be here,

Psalm 93:1, "Jehovah himself has become king! With eminence he is clothed; Jehovah is clothed"with strength he has girded himself. The productive land also becomes firmly established so that it cannot be made to totter."

Again you read into that what you wish to see, and twist it"s meaning to suit.

Psalm 96:10 Say among the nations: "Jehovah himself has become king. The productive land also becomes firmly established so that it cannot be made to totter. He will plead the cause of the peoples in uprightness.",

See above reply.

Ecclesiastes 1:5 "And the sun also has flashed forth, and the sun has set, and it is coming panting to its place where it is going to flash forth."

Again you are interpreting what is said to suit yourself, to me that only means that the sun rises, moves across the sky and sets, it is describing what we see, not necessarily what happens.

: -God supposedly led the Israelites through the land of the Philistines, hundreds of years before the Philistines were established in Canaan.


How do you know that? Where is your evidence? Somehow I doubt it is any more accurate than what you have said so far is.

: -It took the Israelites 40 years to travel from Egypt to Canaan, yet such a journey, even at that time, would have taken no more than a few weeks.

And that is what it would have taken had they not been unfaithful and sentenced by God to 40 years wandering in the wilderness. You obviously are busily criticising something you don"t know, just because someone else has told you and you haven"t bothered checking up. Believing what you want to believe, just because it sounds good is a dangerous game.

Numbers 14:31 "And YOUR little ones who YOU said would become plunder, these also I shall certainly bring in, and they will indeed know the land that YOU have rejected. 32 But the carcasses of YOU yourselves will fall in this wilderness. 33 And YOUR sons will become shepherds in the wilderness forty years, and they will have to answer for YOUR acts of fornication, until YOUR carcasses come to their end in the wilderness. 34 By the number of the days that YOU spied out the land, forty days, a day for a year, a day for a year, YOU will answer for YOUR errors forty years, as YOU must know what my being estranged means."

: -The Bible claims that unicorns exist.

Again does it?

Numbers 23:22 "God is bringing them out of Egypt. The swift course like that of a wild bull is his."

OK, to be fair to you, as the footnote on "bull" in my reference bible says that one manuscript does indeed have the unicorn, but not all. That footnote reads : Or, "a buffalo." LXX, "unicorn"; Vg, "rhinoceros.". Maybe you have been reading a bible based on the wrong manuscript or again, maybe you have just been listening and not checking up.
:
That's only a VERY small and partial list. The Bible contains a massive number of scientific absurdities and historical inaccuracies. Not exactly the work of an omniscient being, if you ask me.

Did I ask you, lol?

OK bring them on and I"ll show you how wrong you are. It won"t be the first time I"ve done it. Do you think I haven"t done my own research? More fool you if you think that. I know scripture far better than you obviously do. I also know better than to take someone else's word for anything no matter what letters they have after their name. All those letters represent is the status quo, not necessarily the truth.

I have tried to fault scripture, and failed dismally.
llamainmypocket
Posts: 253
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6/17/2013 7:02:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Madcornishbiker,

I agree with you. He is interpreting a meaning and then making inferences based on his subjective interpretation. A classic example is where he assumes the earth to be the center of the solar system because if that's how he was going to create the earth then that's how he would do it. It's completely baseless.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/17/2013 7:04:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/17/2013 6:42:31 PM, llamainmypocket wrote:
At 6/17/2013 5:31:36 PM, crossfade102495 wrote:
MadCornishBiker:


Besides the fact that you should be FAR more concise with your responses, I feel compelled to tell you that there was not a shred of historical evidence outside of the Bible in any of your replies.

Modern historians do not accept the Bible as a valid source of historical information for many reasons. Here are just a few....
-There is no proof outside of the Bible that the Israelites were enslaved by Egypt.
-Jesus's life was not documented by the Romans (one of the best record-keepers of that time).
-The crucifixion of Jesus was not documented by the Romans.
-We know the Genesis account of creation is BS. Evolution is proven quite thoroughly.
-The Bible mistakenly says that the Earth is flat. (Isaiah 11:12, Revelation 7:1, Job 38:13, Matthew 4:8)
-The Bible claims that the Earth does not move in the "firmament," and that the sun revolves around the Earth. (Psalm 104:5, Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10, Ecclesiastes 1:5)
-God supposedly led the Israelites through the land of the Philistines, hundreds of years before the Philistines were established in Canaan.
-It took the Israelites 40 years to travel from Egypt to Canaan, yet such a journey, even at that time, would have taken no more than a few weeks.
-The Bible claims that unicorns exist. (Seriously, Numbers 23:22)

That's only a VERY small and partial list. The Bible contains a massive number of scientific absurdities and historical inaccuracies. Not exactly the work of an omniscient being, if you ask me.

There isn't proof of anything and evidence is subjective. Your interpretation of both the bible and what you perceive to be cosmology and evolution are founded in reason. Reason is a philosophy that makes inferences from premises. You can't derive truth from reason anymore than you can derive blood from stone. You can only derive what is reasonable from reasoning.

Actually there is a lot of objective proof.

You could try reading "The Bible as History" by Werner Keller for a start. Or, "The Bible in the British Museum" (you'll have to google it for the authors name and a .pdf of it).

"The Bible as History" has been revised many times to take in further discoveries, which are frequently made.

However, it s true that much of the evidence is subjective, but far from all.
llamainmypocket
Posts: 253
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6/17/2013 7:19:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I don't understand the great conflict between cosmology, evolution and the bible. There are aspects of science which are philosophical in their nature and they used as a medium for the pursuit of science. Its been my experience that when it offends it is largely based on philosophy.

The bible seems very consistent with both cosmology and evolution in a raw form. You've got an order by which the species arose, it's consistent with the bible. The bible says that God made us from the dust off the earth, I think. In cosmology, you have a beginning in both. Both beginnings imply a supernatural origin. The way the planet came to be is easily consistent with cosmology.

For me, and I am an agnostic, I would say, for us to understand that one species arose from another the conclusion would be that's how god did it. If Einstein says that time is relative then that just make more sense to me in a seven day creation. If evolution says the world isn't perfect then I say, so does the bible.

I don't know. I just don't see the big deal. It's like a battle among philosophers. Some are religious and others are scientific but both are taking their respective roles out of context. A scientist is supposed to be ignorant and the religious are supposed to have faith.
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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6/17/2013 8:22:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"Holy Scripture: A book sent down from heaven.... Holy Scriptures contain all
that a Christian should know and believe, provided he adds to it a million or so
commentaries.
[Voltaire]
At 6/17/2013 7:04:36 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/17/2013 6:42:31 PM, llamainmypocket wrote:
At 6/17/2013 5:31:36 PM, crossfade102495 wrote:
MadCornishBiker:


Besides the fact that you should be FAR more concise with your responses, I feel compelled to tell you that there was not a shred of historical evidence outside of the Bible in any of your replies.

Modern historians do not accept the Bible as a valid source of historical information for many reasons. Here are just a few....
-There is no proof outside of the Bible that the Israelites were enslaved by Egypt.
-Jesus's life was not documented by the Romans (one of the best record-keepers of that time).
-The crucifixion of Jesus was not documented by the Romans.
-We know the Genesis account of creation is BS. Evolution is proven quite thoroughly.
-The Bible mistakenly says that the Earth is flat. (Isaiah 11:12, Revelation 7:1, Job 38:13, Matthew 4:8)
-The Bible claims that the Earth does not move in the "firmament," and that the sun revolves around the Earth. (Psalm 104:5, Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10, Ecclesiastes 1:5)
-God supposedly led the Israelites through the land of the Philistines, hundreds of years before the Philistines were established in Canaan.
-It took the Israelites 40 years to travel from Egypt to Canaan, yet such a journey, even at that time, would have taken no more than a few weeks.
-The Bible claims that unicorns exist. (Seriously, Numbers 23:22)

That's only a VERY small and partial list. The Bible contains a massive number of scientific absurdities and historical inaccuracies. Not exactly the work of an omniscient being, if you ask me.

There isn't proof of anything and evidence is subjective. Your interpretation of both the bible and what you perceive to be cosmology and evolution are founded in reason. Reason is a philosophy that makes inferences from premises. You can't derive truth from reason anymore than you can derive blood from stone. You can only derive what is reasonable from reasoning.

Actually there is a lot of objective proof.

You could try reading "The Bible as History" by Werner Keller for a start. Or, "The Bible in the British Museum" (you'll have to google it for the authors name and a .pdf of it).

"The Bible as History" has been revised many times to take in further discoveries, which are frequently made.

However, it s true that much of the evidence is subjective, but far from all.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
crossfade102495
Posts: 25
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6/17/2013 8:40:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/17/2013 6:42:31 PM, llamainmypocket wrote:
At 6/17/2013 5:31:36 PM, crossfade102495 wrote:
MadCornishBiker:


Besides the fact that you should be FAR more concise with your responses, I feel compelled to tell you that there was not a shred of historical evidence outside of the Bible in any of your replies.

Modern historians do not accept the Bible as a valid source of historical information for many reasons. Here are just a few....
-There is no proof outside of the Bible that the Israelites were enslaved by Egypt.
-Jesus's life was not documented by the Romans (one of the best record-keepers of that time).
-The crucifixion of Jesus was not documented by the Romans.
-We know the Genesis account of creation is BS. Evolution is proven quite thoroughly.
-The Bible mistakenly says that the Earth is flat. (Isaiah 11:12, Revelation 7:1, Job 38:13, Matthew 4:8)
-The Bible claims that the Earth does not move in the "firmament," and that the sun revolves around the Earth. (Psalm 104:5, Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10, Ecclesiastes 1:5)
-God supposedly led the Israelites through the land of the Philistines, hundreds of years before the Philistines were established in Canaan.
-It took the Israelites 40 years to travel from Egypt to Canaan, yet such a journey, even at that time, would have taken no more than a few weeks.
-The Bible claims that unicorns exist. (Seriously, Numbers 23:22)

That's only a VERY small and partial list. The Bible contains a massive number of scientific absurdities and historical inaccuracies. Not exactly the work of an omniscient being, if you ask me.

There isn't proof of anything and evidence is subjective. Your interpretation of both the bible and what you perceive to be cosmology and evolution are founded in reason. Reason is a philosophy that makes inferences from premises. You can't derive truth from reason anymore than you can derive blood from stone. You can only derive what is reasonable from reasoning.

I don't at all agree with your understanding of reality, which puts us at odds in the first place. I myself went through a period of Nihilism where I believed that nothing could be known as fact or truth whatsoever.
While I do agree that I use reason to determine truth, I would argue that reason has a good track record for PROVIDING the truth through recognizable results and predictions. When we utilize science and reason, we create something called models to help us understand the universe around us. If those models demonstrate a capability for predictive powers, we consider them to be logically sound. When Einstein created the model of General Relativity, for example, he was able to make predictions about how things should work. Once experiments were carried out, the results were found to actually coincide with the predictions of Einstein's theory. This is how we progress through science and knowledge. This is how we gain information about everything around us- observation, hypothesis making, predictions, experimentation, and tweaking of the hypothesis based upon the results. We explain the results with our theories, instead of grabbing for results to validate our theories. I hope the difference is lucid to you.
"You can only derive what is reasonable from reasoning."
...Well, I would sure hope so! Reason is basically the deduction of how things work based upon what we observe. This obviously means that only a reasonable (or rational) conclusion can come from reasonable (or rational) observations. Again, that's how we progress as a species.
Your idea of "subjective facts" is incoherent, I'm afraid. Facts are things which are TRUE about something, in the sense that they are observably true. In science (of which I am speaking), facts are things which we can either observe to be true (observations) or things which we can deduce are consistently true through experimentation. There's no "subjective" to that.
crossfade102495
Posts: 25
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6/17/2013 8:41:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
MadCornishBiker:

For starters, I do apologize for not quoting your responses (it seems rather rude of me), but it runs down the available characters for me to make a point.

Secondly, I understand what you mean when you say that you aren't always able to be succinct. It was inconsiderate of me to say such a thing, and I apologize. It happens to me too from time to time.

Now, as to the actual points you make...
I believe you could take any events in the past xx years and say that they are OBVIOUSLY a sign of the fulfillment of some odd prophecy, be it Biblical or otherwise. People have always thought that the world would end within their lifetime and many of them believed that Christ Himself would return before they died. Of course, most of them are dead today. And yet the world goes on..
As to the advancement being "inexplicable:" hardly so. The advancement can be traced back rather easily to the Renaissance of the 15th century (some 580 years ago or so), along with the Enlightenment of the 18th and 19th centuries. Unsurprisingly, these were the result of science and the scientific method, NOT religion (particularly not Christianity).
We are not anywhere near being in danger of extinction, my friend. To say that events have gone on for the past 150 years (truly the last half a millennium) that should cause our extinction is, well, simply untrue. We have become more successful than ever before. We are in the wave of a relatively new period of science and secularism which offers to increase the quality of life for literally billions of people.

I wish I could provide you with a truly convincing and reliable source regarding the myth of the Jewish enslavement, but I don't have one on hand at the moment. Sorry about that, though I might find one soon.

My good sir, you can't possibly be proposing that the Romans would fail to record the life of a man who healed people of sicknesses, walked on water, rose from the dead, claimed to be the Son of God, ascended into the skies, fed thousands of people, etc? Not to mention the massive earthquake after His death, the tearing of the temple curtain, and THE RESURRECTION OF A MYRIAD OF PEOPLE WHOM SUPPOSEDLY WALKED AMONG THE LIVING. Those aren't exactly things that happen every day... I don't think you're giving the Romans due credit, sir. Or you're simply shrugging off the lack of historical records. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt here.

The Romans recorded the executions that they carried out. They were meticulous record-keepers.

In regards to evolution, your statement is untrue. There is a plethora of instances of speciation (http://www.talkorigins.org...). Evolution is actually one of most well-proven theories of biology.
I believe the William Dembski to which you refer is the same one who would not defend Intelligent Design in the court room under oath. Does "Kitzmiller v Dover" ring a bell? Very reliable source.

Implying that the Earth has corners at all is an obvious implication that it is flat. Why would an all-knowing being make such a reference? Why not just be completely lucid and leave no room for misinterpretation?

As to the "geocentric" theory advocated by the Bible, I'll even concede that you're right (I don't agree with that, and could in fact pursue the matter but it wouldn't be conducive to our discussion). Even IF I make such a concession, you've already condemned yourself. To say that the Earth always will be is patently false. We know that in the next five billion years the sun will expand and engulf the Earth. It is not infinite.

Run a quick Google search for the "Philistines" to find out when they established their first city. Now that you've presumably done that, you'll see that they appeared around 1175 BCE. The Bible claims that the land of Canaan (the Philistines) was conquered 480 years before the fourth year of Solomon's reign, which gives you roughly the year 1404 BCE. That's a difference of 229 years- not exactly a small amount of time.

Your argument for the time of the Israelites to go through the desert is unfalsifiable simply because it relies on the existence of an unfalsifiable God. Therefore, I won't bother with a refutation because it isn't possible.

You've conceded that it has the translation "unicorn." However, you charmingly used the NIV (or equivalent) translation. See, the thing is, the King James Version is one of the oldest translations and is thus the most likely to adhere to the original manuscripts (we have, of course, lost those). If you actually take the time to consult the KJV, you'll find this: "God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn."

I don't think I asked for a confirmation from you, though I do appreciate it. Very generous of you.
Anyway, I don't believe even for a second that you have "tried to fault Scripture." I'm not so conceited as to talk up my knowledge of the Bible (unlike some whom I could name). I have read it, certainly, but I don't claim to know everything about it. My knowledge is demonstrably finite (:

However, I'd encourage you to go through a few simple Google searches of things like "Biblical contradictions," "absurdities in the Bible," "scientific inaccuracies of the Bible," and the like. After all, the Internet is the place where religion comes to die.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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6/17/2013 9:22:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/17/2013 3:29:25 AM, ATHOS wrote:
So God goes on and creates Adam and then gets him a date, Eve. Life is paradise. But, God gives them this one rule: Do anything you want kids, knock yourselves out, but don't you dare eat the fruit from that tree of knowledge over there. So the serpent does its thing, Eve takes a bite and tempts Adam just so you can blame women for everything, and then Adam takes a bite. Now there's hell to pay. Big angry Maker kicks Adam and Eve out of paradise. He even tells Eve that she's going to suffer terrible pain during child birth just for good measure. That'll teach her! But wait just a minute here. If God is God, then wouldn't He be perfect? And if He is perfect, then wouldn't He know everything? So if God is God and He knows everything, then what has He done here? Well, apparently God has set up His own children to fail just so He can have the pleasure of ruthlessly punishing them for a scenario which He Himself set into motion.

What about the time he told Abraham to kill his son, waited until he'd taken his son up a mountain and was about to stab him to death and popped up like 'lol, just kidding."

God is an arsehole. This is known.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
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llamainmypocket
Posts: 253
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6/17/2013 9:22:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/17/2013 8:40:37 PM, crossfade102495 wrote:
At 6/17/2013 6:42:31 PM, llamainmypocket wrote:
At 6/17/2013 5:31:36 PM, crossfade102495 wrote:
MadCornishBiker:


Besides the fact that you should be FAR more concise with your responses, I feel compelled to tell you that there was not a shred of historical evidence outside of the Bible in any of your replies.

Modern historians do not accept the Bible as a valid source of historical information for many reasons. Here are just a few....
-There is no proof outside of the Bible that the Israelites were enslaved by Egypt.
-Jesus's life was not documented by the Romans (one of the best record-keepers of that time).
-The crucifixion of Jesus was not documented by the Romans.
-We know the Genesis account of creation is BS. Evolution is proven quite thoroughly.
-The Bible mistakenly says that the Earth is flat. (Isaiah 11:12, Revelation 7:1, Job 38:13, Matthew 4:8)
-The Bible claims that the Earth does not move in the "firmament," and that the sun revolves around the Earth. (Psalm 104:5, Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10, Ecclesiastes 1:5)
-God supposedly led the Israelites through the land of the Philistines, hundreds of years before the Philistines were established in Canaan.
-It took the Israelites 40 years to travel from Egypt to Canaan, yet such a journey, even at that time, would have taken no more than a few weeks.
-The Bible claims that unicorns exist. (Seriously, Numbers 23:22)

That's only a VERY small and partial list. The Bible contains a massive number of scientific absurdities and historical inaccuracies. Not exactly the work of an omniscient being, if you ask me.

There isn't proof of anything and evidence is subjective. Your interpretation of both the bible and what you perceive to be cosmology and evolution are founded in reason. Reason is a philosophy that makes inferences from premises. You can't derive truth from reason anymore than you can derive blood from stone. You can only derive what is reasonable from reasoning.

I don't at all agree with your understanding of reality, which puts us at odds in the first place. I myself went through a period of Nihilism where I believed that nothing could be known as fact or truth whatsoever.
While I do agree that I use reason to determine truth, I would argue that reason has a good track record for PROVIDING the truth through recognizable results and predictions. When we utilize science and reason, we create something called models to help us understand the universe around us. If those models demonstrate a capability for predictive powers, we consider them to be logically sound. When Einstein created the model of General Relativity, for example, he was able to make predictions about how things should work. Once experiments were carried out, the results were found to actually coincide with the predictions of Einstein's theory. This is how we progress through science and knowledge. This is how we gain information about everything around us- observation, hypothesis making, predictions, experimentation, and tweaking of the hypothesis based upon the results. We explain the results with our theories, instead of grabbing for results to validate our theories. I hope the difference is lucid to you.
"You can only derive what is reasonable from reasoning."
...Well, I would sure hope so! Reason is basically the deduction of how things work based upon what we observe. This obviously means that only a reasonable (or rational) conclusion can come from reasonable (or rational) observations. Again, that's how we progress as a species.
Your idea of "subjective facts" is incoherent, I'm afraid. Facts are things which are TRUE about something, in the sense that they are observably true. In science (of which I am speaking), facts are things which we can either observe to be true (observations) or things which we can deduce are consistently true through experimentation. There's no "subjective" to that.

I did not find this compelling and I'm not even religious. I'm not trying to prove anything but if your intent was to convince me of something then it didn't work. I think I could make a more convincing argument for science than you. Yet I remain unconvinced of our capability to understand the world around us.
crossfade102495
Posts: 25
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6/17/2013 10:11:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/17/2013 9:22:31 PM, llamainmypocket wrote:
At 6/17/2013 8:40:37 PM, crossfade102495 wrote:
At 6/17/2013 6:42:31 PM, llamainmypocket wrote:
At 6/17/2013 5:31:36 PM, crossfade102495 wrote:
MadCornishBiker:


Besides the fact that you should be FAR more concise with your responses, I feel compelled to tell you that there was not a shred of historical evidence outside of the Bible in any of your replies.

Modern historians do not accept the Bible as a valid source of historical information for many reasons. Here are just a few....
-There is no proof outside of the Bible that the Israelites were enslaved by Egypt.
-Jesus's life was not documented by the Romans (one of the best record-keepers of that time).
-The crucifixion of Jesus was not documented by the Romans.
-We know the Genesis account of creation is BS. Evolution is proven quite thoroughly.
-The Bible mistakenly says that the Earth is flat. (Isaiah 11:12, Revelation 7:1, Job 38:13, Matthew 4:8)
-The Bible claims that the Earth does not move in the "firmament," and that the sun revolves around the Earth. (Psalm 104:5, Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10, Ecclesiastes 1:5)
-God supposedly led the Israelites through the land of the Philistines, hundreds of years before the Philistines were established in Canaan.
-It took the Israelites 40 years to travel from Egypt to Canaan, yet such a journey, even at that time, would have taken no more than a few weeks.
-The Bible claims that unicorns exist. (Seriously, Numbers 23:22)

That's only a VERY small and partial list. The Bible contains a massive number of scientific absurdities and historical inaccuracies. Not exactly the work of an omniscient being, if you ask me.

There isn't proof of anything and evidence is subjective. Your interpretation of both the bible and what you perceive to be cosmology and evolution are founded in reason. Reason is a philosophy that makes inferences from premises. You can't derive truth from reason anymore than you can derive blood from stone. You can only derive what is reasonable from reasoning.

I don't at all agree with your understanding of reality, which puts us at odds in the first place. I myself went through a period of Nihilism where I believed that nothing could be known as fact or truth whatsoever.
While I do agree that I use reason to determine truth, I would argue that reason has a good track record for PROVIDING the truth through recognizable results and predictions. When we utilize science and reason, we create something called models to help us understand the universe around us. If those models demonstrate a capability for predictive powers, we consider them to be logically sound. When Einstein created the model of General Relativity, for example, he was able to make predictions about how things should work. Once experiments were carried out, the results were found to actually coincide with the predictions of Einstein's theory. This is how we progress through science and knowledge. This is how we gain information about everything around us- observation, hypothesis making, predictions, experimentation, and tweaking of the hypothesis based upon the results. We explain the results with our theories, instead of grabbing for results to validate our theories. I hope the difference is lucid to you.
"You can only derive what is reasonable from reasoning."
...Well, I would sure hope so! Reason is basically the deduction of how things work based upon what we observe. This obviously means that only a reasonable (or rational) conclusion can come from reasonable (or rational) observations. Again, that's how we progress as a species.
Your idea of "subjective facts" is incoherent, I'm afraid. Facts are things which are TRUE about something, in the sense that they are observably true. In science (of which I am speaking), facts are things which we can either observe to be true (observations) or things which we can deduce are consistently true through experimentation. There's no "subjective" to that.

I did not find this compelling and I'm not even religious. I'm not trying to prove anything but if your intent was to convince me of something then it didn't work. I think I could make a more convincing argument for science than you. Yet I remain unconvinced of our capability to understand the world around us.

Not to be rude and with all due respect, but your opinion of my argument doesn't actually hold any significance to me. Sorry. Now if you'd like to perhaps COUNTER the things I have stated there, then go ahead by all means.
The fact that you haven't said anything to counter what I've said speaks volumes as to your ability to create and present a coherent and meaningful argument. The logic speaks for itself in this case. Yours is, put lightly, lacking... Particularly in light of your argumentum ad hominem in that post.
question4u
Posts: 492
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6/17/2013 10:23:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I: At 6/17/2013 3:29:25 AM, ATHOS wrote:
So God goes on and creates Adam and then gets him a date, Eve. Life is paradise. But, God gives them this one rule: Do anything you want kids, knock yourselves out, but don't you dare eat the fruit from that tree of knowledge over there. So the serpent does its thing, Eve takes a bite and tempts Adam just so you can blame women for everything, and then Adam takes a bite. Now there's hell to pay. Big angry Maker kicks Adam and Eve out of paradise. He even tells Eve that she's going to suffer terrible pain during child birth just for good measure. That'll teach her! But wait just a minute here. If God is God, then wouldn't He be perfect? And if He is perfect, then wouldn't He know everything? So if God is God and He knows everything, then what has He done here? Well, apparently God has set up His own children to fail just so He can have the pleasure of ruthlessly punishing them for a scenario which He Himself set into motion.

I guess we came up with the police system knowing that humans will fell, what a terrible idea, we blame the creator who we dont know but don't blame ourselves for our on mistakes...to be honest if the story is true and they did what they was suppose to do...then how would the story play out.
llamainmypocket
Posts: 253
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6/17/2013 10:52:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/17/2013 10:11:56 PM, crossfade102495 wrote:
At 6/17/2013 9:22:31 PM, llamainmypocket wrote:
At 6/17/2013 8:40:37 PM, crossfade102495 wrote:
At 6/17/2013 6:42:31 PM, llamainmypocket wrote:
At 6/17/2013 5:31:36 PM, crossfade102495 wrote:
MadCornishBiker:


Besides the fact that you should be FAR more concise with your responses, I feel compelled to tell you that there was not a shred of historical evidence outside of the Bible in any of your replies.

Modern historians do not accept the Bible as a valid source of historical information for many reasons. Here are just a few....
-There is no proof outside of the Bible that the Israelites were enslaved by Egypt.
-Jesus's life was not documented by the Romans (one of the best record-keepers of that time).
-The crucifixion of Jesus was not documented by the Romans.
-We know the Genesis account of creation is BS. Evolution is proven quite thoroughly.
-The Bible mistakenly says that the Earth is flat. (Isaiah 11:12, Revelation 7:1, Job 38:13, Matthew 4:8)
-The Bible claims that the Earth does not move in the "firmament," and that the sun revolves around the Earth. (Psalm 104:5, Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10, Ecclesiastes 1:5)
-God supposedly led the Israelites through the land of the Philistines, hundreds of years before the Philistines were established in Canaan.
-It took the Israelites 40 years to travel from Egypt to Canaan, yet such a journey, even at that time, would have taken no more than a few weeks.
-The Bible claims that unicorns exist. (Seriously, Numbers 23:22)

That's only a VERY small and partial list. The Bible contains a massive number of scientific absurdities and historical inaccuracies. Not exactly the work of an omniscient being, if you ask me.

There isn't proof of anything and evidence is subjective. Your interpretation of both the bible and what you perceive to be cosmology and evolution are founded in reason. Reason is a philosophy that makes inferences from premises. You can't derive truth from reason anymore than you can derive blood from stone. You can only derive what is reasonable from reasoning.

I don't at all agree with your understanding of reality, which puts us at odds in the first place. I myself went through a period of Nihilism where I believed that nothing could be known as fact or truth whatsoever.
While I do agree that I use reason to determine truth, I would argue that reason has a good track record for PROVIDING the truth through recognizable results and predictions. When we utilize science and reason, we create something called models to help us understand the universe around us. If those models demonstrate a capability for predictive powers, we consider them to be logically sound. When Einstein created the model of General Relativity, for example, he was able to make predictions about how things should work. Once experiments were carried out, the results were found to actually coincide with the predictions of Einstein's theory. This is how we progress through science and knowledge. This is how we gain information about everything around us- observation, hypothesis making, predictions, experimentation, and tweaking of the hypothesis based upon the results. We explain the results with our theories, instead of grabbing for results to validate our theories. I hope the difference is lucid to you.
"You can only derive what is reasonable from reasoning."
...Well, I would sure hope so! Reason is basically the deduction of how things work based upon what we observe. This obviously means that only a reasonable (or rational) conclusion can come from reasonable (or rational) observations. Again, that's how we progress as a species.
Your idea of "subjective facts" is incoherent, I'm afraid. Facts are things which are TRUE about something, in the sense that they are observably true. In science (of which I am speaking), facts are things which we can either observe to be true (observations) or things which we can deduce are consistently true through experimentation. There's no "subjective" to that.

I did not find this compelling and I'm not even religious. I'm not trying to prove anything but if your intent was to convince me of something then it didn't work. I think I could make a more convincing argument for science than you. Yet I remain unconvinced of our capability to understand the world around us.

Not to be rude and with all due respect, but your opinion of my argument doesn't actually hold any significance to me. Sorry. Now if you'd like to perhaps COUNTER the things I have stated there, then go ahead by all means.
The fact that you haven't said anything to counter what I've said speaks volumes as to your ability to create and present a coherent and meaningful argument. The logic speaks for itself in this case. Yours is, put lightly, lacking... Particularly in light of your argumentum ad hominem in that post

It doesn't look like an argument because it isn't one. It's a statement. I had presumed that you were trying to convince me of something and was therefore informing you that it did not. it was informative. :-)

There is no need to argue this post either.
crossfade102495
Posts: 25
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6/17/2013 10:59:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/17/2013 10:52:11 PM, llamainmypocket wrote:
At 6/17/2013 10:11:56 PM, crossfade102495 wrote:
At 6/17/2013 9:22:31 PM, llamainmypocket wrote:
At 6/17/2013 8:40:37 PM, crossfade102495 wrote:
At 6/17/2013 6:42:31 PM, llamainmypocket wrote:
At 6/17/2013 5:31:36 PM, crossfade102495 wrote:
MadCornishBiker:


Besides the fact that you should be FAR more concise with your responses, I feel compelled to tell you that there was not a shred of historical evidence outside of the Bible in any of your replies.

Modern historians do not accept the Bible as a valid source of historical information for many reasons. Here are just a few....
-There is no proof outside of the Bible that the Israelites were enslaved by Egypt.
-Jesus's life was not documented by the Romans (one of the best record-keepers of that time).
-The crucifixion of Jesus was not documented by the Romans.
-We know the Genesis account of creation is BS. Evolution is proven quite thoroughly.
-The Bible mistakenly says that the Earth is flat. (Isaiah 11:12, Revelation 7:1, Job 38:13, Matthew 4:8)
-The Bible claims that the Earth does not move in the "firmament," and that the sun revolves around the Earth. (Psalm 104:5, Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10, Ecclesiastes 1:5)
-God supposedly led the Israelites through the land of the Philistines, hundreds of years before the Philistines were established in Canaan.
-It took the Israelites 40 years to travel from Egypt to Canaan, yet such a journey, even at that time, would have taken no more than a few weeks.
-The Bible claims that unicorns exist. (Seriously, Numbers 23:22)

That's only a VERY small and partial list. The Bible contains a massive number of scientific absurdities and historical inaccuracies. Not exactly the work of an omniscient being, if you ask me.

There isn't proof of anything and evidence is subjective. Your interpretation of both the bible and what you perceive to be cosmology and evolution are founded in reason. Reason is a philosophy that makes inferences from premises. You can't derive truth from reason anymore than you can derive blood from stone. You can only derive what is reasonable from reasoning.

I don't at all agree with your understanding of reality, which puts us at odds in the first place. I myself went through a period of Nihilism where I believed that nothing could be known as fact or truth whatsoever.
While I do agree that I use reason to determine truth, I would argue that reason has a good track record for PROVIDING the truth through recognizable results and predictions. When we utilize science and reason, we create something called models to help us understand the universe around us. If those models demonstrate a capability for predictive powers, we consider them to be logically sound. When Einstein created the model of General Relativity, for example, he was able to make predictions about how things should work. Once experiments were carried out, the results were found to actually coincide with the predictions of Einstein's theory. This is how we progress through science and knowledge. This is how we gain information about everything around us- observation, hypothesis making, predictions, experimentation, and tweaking of the hypothesis based upon the results. We explain the results with our theories, instead of grabbing for results to validate our theories. I hope the difference is lucid to you.
"You can only derive what is reasonable from reasoning."
...Well, I would sure hope so! Reason is basically the deduction of how things work based upon what we observe. This obviously means that only a reasonable (or rational) conclusion can come from reasonable (or rational) observations. Again, that's how we progress as a species.
Your idea of "subjective facts" is incoherent, I'm afraid. Facts are things which are TRUE about something, in the sense that they are observably true. In science (of which I am speaking), facts are things which we can either observe to be true (observations) or things which we can deduce are consistently true through experimentation. There's no "subjective" to that.

I did not find this compelling and I'm not even religious. I'm not trying to prove anything but if your intent was to convince me of something then it didn't work. I think I could make a more convincing argument for science than you. Yet I remain unconvinced of our capability to understand the world around us.

Not to be rude and with all due respect, but your opinion of my argument doesn't actually hold any significance to me. Sorry. Now if you'd like to perhaps COUNTER the things I have stated there, then go ahead by all means.
The fact that you haven't said anything to counter what I've said speaks volumes as to your ability to create and present a coherent and meaningful argument. The logic speaks for itself in this case. Yours is, put lightly, lacking... Particularly in light of your argumentum ad hominem in that post

It doesn't look like an argument because it isn't one. It's a statement. I had presumed that you were trying to convince me of something and was therefore informing you that it did not. it was informative. :-)

There is no need to argue this post either.

Then we've reached an impasse and I'm done with this line of discussion. Too bad you didn't learn anything, though I suppose it's none of my concern. Adieu to all (:
crossfade102495
Posts: 25
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6/17/2013 11:18:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Oh and for the record, llamainmypocket, I was only trying to be educational. I was not attempting to sway you either way (: Your comments showed signs of ignorance in respect to how things work in the scientific world, and so I thought it would be appropriate to shed some light on it for you.
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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6/18/2013 12:11:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/17/2013 12:34:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/17/2013 3:29:25 AM, ATHOS wrote:


Genesis 1 is told in Chronological order, Genesis 2 is not but is told in the order that Adam discovered or was shown them.
Chronological:
Earth came before the stars.
Light came before the stars
Water came before the stars
Plants came before the stars.
Just to name a few. You may need to check your chronometer.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin