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How to reconcile stillbirths with God?

Enji
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6/26/2013 8:22:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
It's like the problem of evil:

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to prevent the needless deaths of unborn babies.
3. If God is omniscient, then God has the knowledge to prevent the deaths of unborn babies.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to prevent the needless deaths of unborn babies.
5. Babies needlessly die.
6. Therefore God does not exist. (modus tollens)

Thirty-thousand babies in America stillborn each year and approximately two-million babies are stillborn each year worldwide. A large portion of stillbirths in low-risk countries with high-quality health care have no diagnosable cause of death and their deaths could not be prevented even with modern healthcare. God existed well before hospitals and prenatal diagnosis, so if God is responsible for making life and the lives of children in the womb are sacred to him, then why would he create life only to kill it? How do you reconcile God with stillborn children?
bulproof
Posts: 25,263
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6/26/2013 8:30:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/26/2013 8:22:29 AM, Enji wrote:
It's like the problem of evil:

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to prevent the needless deaths of unborn babies.
3. If God is omniscient, then God has the knowledge to prevent the deaths of unborn babies.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to prevent the needless deaths of unborn babies.
5. Babies needlessly die.
6. Therefore God does not exist. (modus tollens)

Thirty-thousand babies in America stillborn each year and approximately two-million babies are stillborn each year worldwide. A large portion of stillbirths in low-risk countries with high-quality health care have no diagnosable cause of death and their deaths could not be prevented even with modern healthcare. God existed well before hospitals and prenatal diagnosis, so if God is responsible for making life and the lives of children in the womb are sacred to him, then why would he create life only to kill it? How do you reconcile God with stillborn children?
It is estimated that upwards of 90% of ALL fertilized human eggs are spontaneously aborted.
Since there are millions of human births every day, then there must be billions of spontaneous abortions abortions every day.
I blame nothing for those abortions.
What do the god believers blame them on?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
slo1
Posts: 4,353
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6/26/2013 9:08:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/26/2013 8:22:29 AM, Enji wrote:
It's like the problem of evil:

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to prevent the needless deaths of unborn babies.
3. If God is omniscient, then God has the knowledge to prevent the deaths of unborn babies.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to prevent the needless deaths of unborn babies.
5. Babies needlessly die.
6. Therefore God does not exist. (modus tollens)

Thirty-thousand babies in America stillborn each year and approximately two-million babies are stillborn each year worldwide. A large portion of stillbirths in low-risk countries with high-quality health care have no diagnosable cause of death and their deaths could not be prevented even with modern healthcare. God existed well before hospitals and prenatal diagnosis, so if God is responsible for making life and the lives of children in the womb are sacred to him, then why would he create life only to kill it? How do you reconcile God with stillborn children?

I think that there is an underlining assumption on #4 that it is immoral to let a human die. That is an over reaching assumption, unless there is some logic.

According to the historical documents there are many instances where God has clearly killed many people, from cleansing the earth of humanity to smiting a guy after Jesus died because he did not give all his money to a disciple who is spreading the word.

The fundamental problem is that in order for the underlining assumption for #4 to be true God has to be bound by the same moral standards that she puts forth to humanity and the written documentation clearly shows that she is not on the same moral standard that she has commanded people to be on.

It is just too easy for people to assume we can't understand God or his moral code or reasons and just dismiss these obvious contradictions of supposed moral code he brought forth. I'm not certain how to close that loop hole.
Enji
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6/26/2013 9:16:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/26/2013 9:08:48 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 6/26/2013 8:22:29 AM, Enji wrote:
It's like the problem of evil:

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to prevent the needless deaths of unborn babies.
3. If God is omniscient, then God has the knowledge to prevent the deaths of unborn babies.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to prevent the needless deaths of unborn babies.
5. Babies needlessly die.
6. Therefore God does not exist. (modus tollens)

Thirty-thousand babies in America stillborn each year and approximately two-million babies are stillborn each year worldwide. A large portion of stillbirths in low-risk countries with high-quality health care have no diagnosable cause of death and their deaths could not be prevented even with modern healthcare. God existed well before hospitals and prenatal diagnosis, so if God is responsible for making life and the lives of children in the womb are sacred to him, then why would he create life only to kill it? How do you reconcile God with stillborn children?

I think that there is an underlining assumption on #4 that it is immoral to let a human die. That is an over reaching assumption, unless there is some logic.

According to the historical documents there are many instances where God has clearly killed many people, from cleansing the earth of humanity to smiting a guy after Jesus died because he did not give all his money to a disciple who is spreading the word.

The fundamental problem is that in order for the underlining assumption for #4 to be true God has to be bound by the same moral standards that she puts forth to humanity and the written documentation clearly shows that she is not on the same moral standard that she has commanded people to be on.

It is just too easy for people to assume we can't understand God or his moral code or reasons and just dismiss these obvious contradictions of supposed moral code he brought forth. I'm not certain how to close that loop hole.

I think justification for that premise comes from anti-abortion arguments; if life in the womb is sacred to God, then why would God create life knowing it would die and doing nothing to prevent its death. Unless either God does not exist or life in the womb is not sacred to God.
slo1
Posts: 4,353
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6/26/2013 9:16:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/26/2013 8:22:29 AM, Enji wrote:
It's like the problem of evil:

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to prevent the needless deaths of unborn babies.
3. If God is omniscient, then God has the knowledge to prevent the deaths of unborn babies.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to prevent the needless deaths of unborn babies.
5. Babies needlessly die.
6. Therefore God does not exist. (modus tollens)

Thirty-thousand babies in America stillborn each year and approximately two-million babies are stillborn each year worldwide. A large portion of stillbirths in low-risk countries with high-quality health care have no diagnosable cause of death and their deaths could not be prevented even with modern healthcare. God existed well before hospitals and prenatal diagnosis, so if God is responsible for making life and the lives of children in the womb are sacred to him, then why would he create life only to kill it? How do you reconcile God with stillborn children?

On a more practical note, here are the responses I have heard over the years:

1. God is punishing the parents for something he did. (the bible is filled with curses)
2. Free will, God does not cause bad things to happen. He put the world in motion so we have the opportunity to know him, live by his standards, and gain eternal peace. However, we have free will which goes hand in hand with pain and suffering, after all could you know love and happiness, without pain and suffering. (that is a bad paraphrasing of it, but usually the explanations I have heard over the years is just as terrible.)

3. God works in mysterious ways and we can't come close to understanding his motives. Just trust.
Enji
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6/26/2013 9:18:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/26/2013 9:16:33 AM, slo1 wrote:

2. Free will, God does not cause bad things to happen. He put the world in motion so we have the opportunity to know him, live by his standards, and gain eternal peace. However, we have free will which goes hand in hand with pain and suffering, after all could you know love and happiness, without pain and suffering. (that is a bad paraphrasing of it, but usually the explanations I have heard over the years is just as terrible.)

People use free will as a justification for stillborn babies?
Enji
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6/26/2013 9:32:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/26/2013 9:27:39 AM, drafterman wrote:
Maybe stillbirths are God's form of Dead Baby Humor?

I think he just wants more cherubs.
Harbinger
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6/26/2013 9:40:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/26/2013 8:22:29 AM, Enji wrote:
It's like the problem of evil:

There is no problem of evil.

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.

Yes He is.

2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to prevent the needless deaths of unborn babies.

He does but humans don't. I think this will apply below.

3. If God is omniscient, then God has the knowledge to prevent the deaths of unborn babies.

The babies go right back to God, who suffers? Parents.

4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to prevent the needless deaths of unborn babies.

That is the problem. They are not needless deaths. They die because of the sin of parents. Though the parents blame God and not themselves. If we followed God's Laws this type thing WOULD NOT happen. But we don't and they do.

5. Babies needlessly die.

No, they go to heaven without having to suffer this piss poor world. The parents suffer and rightly so, we are sinners and defy God's Laws.

6. Therefore God does not exist. (modus tollens)

Never was close to this conclusion.

Thirty-thousand babies in America stillborn each year and approximately two-million babies are stillborn each year worldwide.

Multi-millions are aborted, we do not want them to live anyway.

A large portion of stillbirths in low-risk countries with high-quality health care have no diagnosable cause of death and their deaths could not be prevented even with modern healthcare.

Why not, man knows better, do they not?

God existed well before hospitals and prenatal diagnosis, so if God is responsible for making life and the lives of children in the womb are sacred to him, then why would he create life only to kill it?

He hasn't, men kill them.

How do you reconcile God with stillborn children?

I just did. Men are deplorable and cause affliction on himself and innocent babies.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Enji
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6/26/2013 10:45:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
This line-by-line approach is annoying.

At 6/26/2013 9:40:47 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/26/2013 8:22:29 AM, Enji wrote:
It's like the problem of evil:

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to prevent the needless deaths of unborn babies.
3. If God is omniscient, then God has the knowledge to prevent the deaths of unborn babies.

The babies go right back to God, who suffers? Parents.

If God places causing the parents to suffer over the life of the child, then God considers the parents more important than the life of their unborn child. However, if the parents are to be placed over the life of the unborn child then abortion should be acceptable. Pro-life advocates claim that life has sacred value from conception and conception is a gift from God and they would put the value of the unborn child's life over the parents'.

4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to prevent the needless deaths of unborn babies.

That is the problem. They are not needless deaths. They die because of the sin of parents. Though the parents blame God and not themselves. If we followed God's Laws this type thing WOULD NOT happen. But we don't and they do.

The Bible teaches that all humans are sinners, yet not all children are stillborn. Being Christian and asking forgiveness for your sins does not prevent stillbirth.

5. Babies needlessly die.
6. Therefore God does not exist. (modus tollens)

Thirty-thousand babies in America stillborn each year and approximately two-million babies are stillborn each year worldwide.

Multi-millions are aborted, we do not want them to live anyway.

If you want to make an accurate comparison, you should only consider the number of babies aborted in the third trimester - which is about 100. Otherwise, you should use the number of miscarriages. Approximately one in four clinically recognized pregnancies end in a miscarriage in America.

A large portion of stillbirths in low-risk countries with high-quality health care have no diagnosable cause of death and their deaths could not be prevented even with modern healthcare.

Why not, man knows better, do they not?

Approximately half of stillbirths are still explained after fetopsy and placental examination, but you think that these could be prevented?

God existed well before hospitals and prenatal diagnosis, so if God is responsible for making life and the lives of children in the womb are sacred to him, then why would he create life only to kill it?

He hasn't, men kill them.

Let's just put every woman who's had a miscarriage or stillbirth in jail for manslaughter because they're killing their children.
Enji
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6/26/2013 10:52:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/26/2013 10:45:16 AM, Enji wrote:

Approximately half of stillbirths are still unexplained after fetopsy and placental examination, but you think that these could be prevented?

Fixed
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/26/2013 10:57:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/26/2013 10:45:16 AM, Enji wrote:

If God places causing the parents to suffer over the life of the child,

There is where you are mistaken. All life is a concern to God but see, your wrapped up in the physical one and God is concerned about your eternal and spiritual one.

then God considers the parents more important than the life of their unborn child.

No, He is concerned about them both. The death should be a wake-up call but they ignore that call and then blame God for their wickedness.

However, if the parents are to be placed over the life of the unborn child then abortion should be acceptable. Pro-life advocates claim that life has sacred value from conception and conception is a gift from God and they would put the value of the unborn child's life over the parents'.

You are just lost. You are concerned about this poor physical body and God, myself, and Christians, are concerned about your eternal soul. See the baby has been given eternal salvation, the parents need it and God is sending His warning to them but like you, they just refuse that warning and is something wring with God and not themselves.

That is the problem. They are not needless deaths. They die because of the sin of parents. Though the parents blame God and not themselves. If we followed God's Laws this type thing WOULD NOT happen. But we don't and they do.

The Bible teaches that all humans are sinners, yet not all children are stillborn. Being Christian and asking forgiveness for your sins does not prevent stillbirth.

No, forsaking God does. Stillborn deaths are a result of sin. Now if you lived Godly then that would not occur but we do not. I say we because even though I do live Godly to a point, I fail, then I also live amoungst a nation who careless about God and His Laws and that effects all of us.

If you want to make an accurate comparison, you should only consider the number of babies aborted in the third trimester - which is about 100. Otherwise, you should use the number of miscarriages. Approximately one in four clinically recognized pregnancies end in a miscarriage in America.

None of this addressed my point. We kill babies by the millions willingly, they want to.

Why not, man knows better, do they not?

Approximately half of stillbirths are still explained after fetopsy and placental examination, but you think that these could be prevented?

Yes they could. Live Godly. Otherwise no matter how much you event cures, diseases and disorders will continue.

God existed well before hospitals and prenatal diagnosis, so if God is responsible for making life and the lives of children in the womb are sacred to him, then why would he create life only to kill it?

He hasn't, men kill them.

Let's just put every woman who's had a miscarriage or stillbirth in jail for manslaughter because they're killing their children.

Good point but that was not my suggestion. By that point every single one of us, men included, women who did not have them would have to be. It is a people not just individuals.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
bulproof
Posts: 25,263
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6/26/2013 11:05:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Why have you ignored this?

At 6/26/2013 8:30:15 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/26/2013 8:22:29 AM, Enji wrote:
It's like the problem of evil:

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to prevent the needless deaths of unborn babies.
3. If God is omniscient, then God has the knowledge to prevent the deaths of unborn babies.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to prevent the needless deaths of unborn babies.
5. Babies needlessly die.
6. Therefore God does not exist. (modus tollens)

Thirty-thousand babies in America stillborn each year and approximately two-million babies are stillborn each year worldwide. A large portion of stillbirths in low-risk countries with high-quality health care have no diagnosable cause of death and their deaths could not be prevented even with modern healthcare. God existed well before hospitals and prenatal diagnosis, so if God is responsible for making life and the lives of children in the womb are sacred to him, then why would he create life only to kill it? How do you reconcile God with stillborn children?
It is estimated that upwards of 90% of ALL fertilized human eggs are spontaneously aborted.
Since there are millions of human births every day, then there must be billions of spontaneous abortions abortions every day.
I blame nothing for those abortions.
What do the god believers blame them on?

Why have you ignored this?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Enji
Posts: 1,022
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6/26/2013 11:25:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/26/2013 10:57:19 AM, Harbinger said some stuff:

If the Christian God exists, then God is merciful and he is willing to forgive us for our sins. Your claim that stillbirth is the result of sin would have merit if it could be established that parents who pray for god's mercy and ask for his forgiveness for their sins are less likely to have stillborn children than atheists or sinners who don't ask for God's forgiveness. However, we don't find any correlation between religious belief or prayer and the likelihood of stillbirth; instead the likelihood of stillbirth is related to the quality of healthcare. Does this mean that countries with better quality healthcare are less sinful than those with worse quality healthcare? That seems like a pretty awful correlation-implies-causation argument to me..
Enji
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6/26/2013 11:27:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/26/2013 11:05:15 AM, bulproof wrote:
Why have you ignored this?

At 6/26/2013 8:30:15 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/26/2013 8:22:29 AM, Enji wrote:
It's like the problem of evil:

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to prevent the needless deaths of unborn babies.
3. If God is omniscient, then God has the knowledge to prevent the deaths of unborn babies.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to prevent the needless deaths of unborn babies.
5. Babies needlessly die.
6. Therefore God does not exist. (modus tollens)

Thirty-thousand babies in America stillborn each year and approximately two-million babies are stillborn each year worldwide. A large portion of stillbirths in low-risk countries with high-quality health care have no diagnosable cause of death and their deaths could not be prevented even with modern healthcare. God existed well before hospitals and prenatal diagnosis, so if God is responsible for making life and the lives of children in the womb are sacred to him, then why would he create life only to kill it? How do you reconcile God with stillborn children?
It is estimated that upwards of 90% of ALL fertilized human eggs are spontaneously aborted.
Since there are millions of human births every day, then there must be billions of spontaneous abortions abortions every day.
I blame nothing for those abortions.
What do the god believers blame them on?

Why have you ignored this?

I am responding to this so you don't think I have ignored it. But I also don't have any comment.
Sower4GS
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6/26/2013 11:34:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
You reconcile with God through obedeince. Man brings sorrow on Himself. God offers peace and man spits in His face,
One needs to follow Yahshua the Living Torah! Christians do not though so this is a true Christian.
CJB) For Moshe writes about the righteousness grounded in the Torah that the person who does these things will attain life through them.

(KJV) For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

(The Scriptures 1998+) For Mosheh writes about the righteousness which is of the Torah, "The man who does these shall live by them."
slo1
Posts: 4,353
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6/26/2013 11:34:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/26/2013 9:18:22 AM, Enji wrote:
At 6/26/2013 9:16:33 AM, slo1 wrote:

2. Free will, God does not cause bad things to happen. He put the world in motion so we have the opportunity to know him, live by his standards, and gain eternal peace. However, we have free will which goes hand in hand with pain and suffering, after all could you know love and happiness, without pain and suffering. (that is a bad paraphrasing of it, but usually the explanations I have heard over the years is just as terrible.)

People use free will as a justification for stillborn babies?

Yes, in short, free will does not exist if God is controlling everything.
Sower4GS
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6/26/2013 11:37:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/26/2013 8:22:29 AM, Enji wrote:
It's like the problem of evil:

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to prevent the needless deaths of unborn babies.
3. If God is omniscient, then God has the knowledge to prevent the deaths of unborn babies.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to prevent the needless deaths of unborn babies.
5. Babies needlessly die.
6. Therefore God does not exist. (modus tollens)

Thirty-thousand babies in America stillborn each year and approximately two-million babies are stillborn each year worldwide. A large portion of stillbirths in low-risk countries with high-quality health care have no diagnosable cause of death and their deaths could not be prevented even with modern healthcare. God existed well before hospitals and prenatal diagnosis, so if God is responsible for making life and the lives of children in the womb are sacred to him, then why would he create life only to kill it? How do you reconcile God with stillborn children?
You reconcile with God through obedeince. Man brings sorrow on Himself. God offers peace and man spits in His face,
One needs to follow Yahshua the Living Torah! Christians do not though so this is a true Christian.
CJB) For Moshe writes about the righteousness grounded in the Torah that the person who does these things will attain life through them.

(KJV) For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

(The Scriptures 1998+) For Mosheh writes about the righteousness which is of the Torah, "The man who does these shall live by them."
It is not God's fault man brings these problems on man's self. Beleive me God is in control and He is Just, man will pay severly for the horrible things that man has done, like the horror you are talking about. Don't blame the consequences of men's sin on God. His ways are not yours, how dare you.
Harbinger
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6/26/2013 12:03:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/26/2013 11:25:50 AM, Enji wrote:
At 6/26/2013 10:57:19 AM, Harbinger said some stuff:

If the Christian God exists, then God is merciful and he is willing to forgive us for our sins. Your claim that stillbirth is the result of sin would have merit if it could be established that parents who pray for god's mercy and ask for his forgiveness for their sins are less likely to have stillborn children than atheists or sinners who don't ask for God's forgiveness. However, we don't find any correlation between religious belief or prayer and the likelihood of stillbirth; instead the likelihood of stillbirth is related to the quality of healthcare. Does this mean that countries with better quality healthcare are less sinful than those with worse quality healthcare? That seems like a pretty awful correlation-implies-causation argument to me..

You just totally ignored my post. I told you even Christians sin and do not follow the Law and even we did, we would live amoungst sinner who did not and that effects everyone. That is why people had to be stoned in the OT. To rid them from the ranks to stop such plagues.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Enji
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6/26/2013 12:28:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/26/2013 12:03:52 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/26/2013 11:25:50 AM, Enji wrote:
At 6/26/2013 10:57:19 AM, Harbinger said some stuff:

If the Christian God exists, then God is merciful and he is willing to forgive us for our sins. Your claim that stillbirth is the result of sin would have merit if it could be established that parents who pray for god's mercy and ask for his forgiveness for their sins are less likely to have stillborn children than atheists or sinners who don't ask for God's forgiveness. However, we don't find any correlation between religious belief or prayer and the likelihood of stillbirth; instead the likelihood of stillbirth is related to the quality of healthcare. Does this mean that countries with better quality healthcare are less sinful than those with worse quality healthcare? That seems like a pretty awful correlation-implies-causation argument to me..

You just totally ignored my post. I told you even Christians sin and do not follow the Law and even we did, we would live amoungst sinner who did not and that effects everyone. That is why people had to be stoned in the OT. To rid them from the ranks to stop such plagues.

Atheists are more likely to ignore the teachings of God than Christians. If stillbirth is caused by not following the teachings of God, then Atheists are more likely to give birth to stillborn babies than Christians. Atheists are not more likely to give birth to stillborn babies than Christians, hence stillbirth isn't caused by not following the teachings of God.
Enji
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6/26/2013 12:36:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
How does disobedience to God or sinning cause any of the following to occur:

Bacterial infection
Chromosomal aberrations
Maternal diabetes
Placental abruption
Umbilical cord accidents

and thus cause stillbirths?
Harbinger
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6/26/2013 12:54:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/26/2013 12:28:21 PM, Enji wrote:
At 6/26/2013 12:03:52 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/26/2013 11:25:50 AM, Enji wrote:
At 6/26/2013 10:57:19 AM, Harbinger said some stuff:

If the Christian God exists, then God is merciful and he is willing to forgive us for our sins. Your claim that stillbirth is the result of sin would have merit if it could be established that parents who pray for god's mercy and ask for his forgiveness for their sins are less likely to have stillborn children than atheists or sinners who don't ask for God's forgiveness. However, we don't find any correlation between religious belief or prayer and the likelihood of stillbirth; instead the likelihood of stillbirth is related to the quality of healthcare. Does this mean that countries with better quality healthcare are less sinful than those with worse quality healthcare? That seems like a pretty awful correlation-implies-causation argument to me..

You just totally ignored my post. I told you even Christians sin and do not follow the Law and even we did, we would live amoungst sinner who did not and that effects everyone. That is why people had to be stoned in the OT. To rid them from the ranks to stop such plagues.

Atheists are more likely to ignore the teachings of God than Christians. If stillbirth is caused by not following the teachings of God, then Atheists are more likely to give birth to stillborn babies than Christians. Atheists are not more likely to give birth to stillborn babies than Christians, hence stillbirth isn't caused by not following the teachings of God.

Do you have stats on that or is it just assumptions? Wait, there are more Christians than Atheist. You still have ignored my post. I just said again for the third time, "Christians themselves do not follow the word fully, that cost them, atheist do not at all or most, that hurts them, together as a group we all hurt each other, why? Because we do not follow Gods Laws, all of us.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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6/26/2013 12:57:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/26/2013 9:40:47 AM, Harbinger wrote:
The babies go right back to God, who suffers? Parents.

By this logic, it would be moral and necessary to immediately kill every single baby as they immediately go to God, rather than letting them experience life and sin.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/26/2013 12:57:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/26/2013 12:36:14 PM, Enji wrote:
How does disobedience to God or sinning cause any of the following to occur:

Bacterial infection
Chromosomal aberrations
Maternal diabetes
Placental abruption
Umbilical cord accidents

and thus cause stillbirths?

Because not following His Laws, are sin, sin causes plagues, disease, and many things in this world. That was what Adam and Eve did, they did not follow God Laws, to not eat of the tree and sin came not only on man but beast and the whole earth. We can reduce such things by trying to follow His Laws but we do not. We just do what we want and because of that we will have these horrible things happen. I am including myself here. I am saved because I believe in Christ but I still sin.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/26/2013 1:00:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/26/2013 12:57:23 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 6/26/2013 9:40:47 AM, Harbinger wrote:
The babies go right back to God, who suffers? Parents.

By this logic, it would be moral and necessary to immediately kill every single baby as they immediately go to God, rather than letting them experience life and sin.

Go ahead, they will go to heaven and you will go to hell. That goes against the Law of God.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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6/26/2013 1:03:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/26/2013 1:00:12 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/26/2013 12:57:23 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 6/26/2013 9:40:47 AM, Harbinger wrote:
The babies go right back to God, who suffers? Parents.

By this logic, it would be moral and necessary to immediately kill every single baby as they immediately go to God, rather than letting them experience life and sin.

Go ahead, they will go to heaven and you will go to hell. That goes against the Law of God.

Nuh uh. You're dodging the point. Disregard all consequences that would occur to X if he/she were to kill every single newborn baby in the world. Instead, focus on the notion that killing every single baby would in fact produce equal or better outcome for the baby in the afterlife, than if the baby had been allowed to grow. Therefore, the concept of killing babies is at least morally on par or (for the vast majority) superior to letting the baby live.

Fvck religion, right?
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Harbinger
Posts: 778
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6/26/2013 1:07:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/26/2013 1:03:11 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 6/26/2013 1:00:12 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/26/2013 12:57:23 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 6/26/2013 9:40:47 AM, Harbinger wrote:
The babies go right back to God, who suffers? Parents.

By this logic, it would be moral and necessary to immediately kill every single baby as they immediately go to God, rather than letting them experience life and sin.

Go ahead, they will go to heaven and you will go to hell. That goes against the Law of God.

Nuh uh. You're dodging the point. Disregard all consequences that would occur to X if he/she were to kill every single newborn baby in the world. Instead, focus on the notion that killing every single baby would in fact produce equal or better outcome for the baby in the afterlife, than if the baby had been allowed to grow. Therefore, the concept of killing babies is at least morally on par or (for the vast majority) superior to letting the baby live.

Fvck religion, right?

If you want to kill babies so they will go to heaven(because they will) and you go to hell for it, then go right ahead. Not only will you go to hell for(most likely cause only someone pure evil would do it and think it) but you will be in prison forever. You are just dodging here. I have stated the same thing over and over. The concept is not morally par with any thing, God said do not kill-murder and that is what you doing. It still does not change the baby will go to heaven.
Psalm 118:8, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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6/26/2013 1:15:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/26/2013 9:40:47 AM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/26/2013 8:22:29 AM, Enji wrote:
3. If God is omniscient, then God has the knowledge to prevent the deaths of unborn babies.

The babies go right back to God, who suffers? Parents.

You don't think God is saddened when babies die?
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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6/26/2013 1:18:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/26/2013 1:00:12 PM, Harbinger wrote:
At 6/26/2013 12:57:23 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 6/26/2013 9:40:47 AM, Harbinger wrote:
The babies go right back to God, who suffers? Parents.

By this logic, it would be moral and necessary to immediately kill every single baby as they immediately go to God, rather than letting them experience life and sin.

Go ahead, they will go to heaven and you will go to hell. That goes against the Law of God.

But if one person killed all babies then we would, from your logic, literally save everyone. One person would then go to hell. Is that not better than what will happen if that scenario is not what happens? Please don't misunderstand me, I am absolutely not for killing babies haha. But you have to understand the argument