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Peoples expectations when discussing religion

Mysterious_Stranger
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7/3/2013 11:28:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
This had occurred several time now to people I have spoke to in real life about religion and various topics that concern a religious element, for example gay marriage, I have discussed the topic several time with others, when I ask others why gays should not be able to marry some simply reply "because the [insert religious scripture] says otherwise" and simply leave it as that, though they fail to realise that the person they are discussing the topic with may not believe in the scripture or their belief system at all. Some people assume that we all just believe what they believe, this annoys me greatly and it also constitutes as failure to produce their own rational arguments just by substituting them with one meagre religious statement.
Turn around, go back.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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7/3/2013 6:42:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/3/2013 11:28:43 AM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
This had occurred several time now to people I have spoke to in real life about religion and various topics that concern a religious element, for example gay marriage, I have discussed the topic several time with others, when I ask others why gays should not be able to marry some simply reply "because the [insert religious scripture] says otherwise" and simply leave it as that, though they fail to realise that the person they are discussing the topic with may not believe in the scripture or their belief system at all. Some people assume that we all just believe what they believe, this annoys me greatly and it also constitutes as failure to produce their own rational arguments just by substituting them with one meagre religious statement.

Nah they know very well people don't believe as they believe. It just some are cocooned in faith, homosexuality is wrong, unnatural, Romans "aposlte" f*cking paul says, God hates and will punish fa$s......end of argument.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
s-anthony
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7/3/2013 7:34:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/3/2013 11:28:43 AM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
This had occurred several time now to people I have spoke to in real life about religion and various topics that concern a religious element, for example gay marriage, I have discussed the topic several time with others, when I ask others why gays should not be able to marry some simply reply "because the [insert religious scripture] says otherwise" and simply leave it as that, though they fail to realise that the person they are discussing the topic with may not believe in the scripture or their belief system at all. Some people assume that we all just believe what they believe, this annoys me greatly and it also constitutes as failure to produce their own rational arguments just by substituting them with one meagre religious statement.

People who feel the need to proselytize others are looking for self-validation. It's not so much they are trying to convince you for your sake, but for theirs.
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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7/3/2013 8:50:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"This had occurred several time now to people I have spoke to in real life about religion and various topics that concern a religious element, for example gay marriage"

Why have marriage at all? Seriously.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/4/2013 8:06:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/3/2013 11:28:43 AM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
This had occurred several time now to people I have spoke to in real life about religion and various topics that concern a religious element, for example gay marriage, I have discussed the topic several time with others, when I ask others why gays should not be able to marry some simply reply "because the [insert religious scripture] says otherwise" and simply leave it as that, though they fail to realise that the person they are discussing the topic with may not believe in the scripture or their belief system at all. Some people assume that we all just believe what they believe, this annoys me greatly and it also constitutes as failure to produce their own rational arguments just by substituting them with one meagre religious statement.

In a way I see your point, and at present it is true that anyone can do anything, with the one proviso that they are prepared to accept the consequences.

The fact that they don't believe the consequences is irrelevant, the consequences are there whether or not we believe them.

Most religious people are in effect telling you what you should do to comply with God's laws, and thereby live.

The simple fact is that God detests any form of Fornication, that is sex outside marriage, whatever the sexual preference, and that He has only made provision for heterosexual marriage.

Homosexuals usually scream about love, and it is true there is no law against tow men loving each other, but in truth love has nothing whatever to do with sex.

That is where the modern day obsession with sex gets it all confused.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/4/2013 9:08:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/3/2013 8:50:37 PM, annanicole wrote:


Why have marriage at all? Seriously.

You claim a faith in God and the bible and you can say something like this? If that ins't hypocritical, nothing is.

Sorry but I find that despicable.

Two reasons for not having same sex marriage:, if you wish to fit in with God's requirements.

Firstly, God conducted the first marriage as the standard for future formation of families. One man one woman in a permanent relationship.

Genesis 2:22-24
ASV(i) 22 and the rib, which Jehovah God had taken from the man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And the man said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Notice it does say "wife".

The method of acknowledging that relationship has changed over the centuries, and now there is a legal arrangement in most companies, which, because it does not infringe God's law, has to be followed by all faithful followers of Christ. (Romans 13).

In Jesus' time, the method was much simpler. The marriage was announced, and the groom simply went in public to the home of the bride's parents and walked her through the streets to his home. That was all that was needed. There was no legal requirement for anything else.

Secondly, any form of sexual relations outside of marriage comes under the heading of fornication, and fornication is totally against God's law. (Acts 15:18;29, 1 Corinthians 6:9,10.)

No arrangement was made for two people of the same gender to marry, so all sexual acts, however minor, between them still count as fornication.

Of course if you don;t want to benefit from all of God's promises, by all means go ahead, just don't complain when you lose out because of your actions.

(Revelation 22:11)
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/4/2013 9:17:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/3/2013 7:34:33 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 7/3/2013 11:28:43 AM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
This had occurred several time now to people I have spoke to in real life about religion and various topics that concern a religious element, for example gay marriage, I have discussed the topic several time with others, when I ask others why gays should not be able to marry some simply reply "because the [insert religious scripture] says otherwise" and simply leave it as that, though they fail to realise that the person they are discussing the topic with may not believe in the scripture or their belief system at all. Some people assume that we all just believe what they believe, this annoys me greatly and it also constitutes as failure to produce their own rational arguments just by substituting them with one meagre religious statement.

People who feel the need to proselytize others are looking for self-validation. It's not so much they are trying to convince you for your sake, but for theirs.

People who feel the need to proselytise others, and do so with truth, are simply obeying the command of Christ to all his followers.

After all it is the example he set, and what he trained his disciples (which means follower) to do.

Those who don't feel driven to do so simply don't have enough faith, because that is what faith drives you to do, as well as love of fellow man. If you love people you want to share the future with them. James 2:24-26
ASV(i) 24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. 25 And in like manner was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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7/4/2013 9:35:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Anna: Why have marriage at all? Seriously.

MCB: You claim a faith in God and the bible and you can say something like this? If that ins't hypocritical, nothing is.

Anna: Hypocritical or not - let 'em answer. I want to know what the concepts of marriage that they are demanding are ultimately based upon.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/4/2013 10:03:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/4/2013 9:35:37 AM, annanicole wrote:
Anna: Why have marriage at all? Seriously.

MCB: You claim a faith in God and the bible and you can say something like this? If that ins't hypocritical, nothing is.

Anna: Hypocritical or not - let 'em answer. I want to know what the concepts of marriage that they are demanding are ultimately based upon.

Maybe you should have just worded it better then.

Of course if you really just want people's answers why not start up a thread on it?
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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7/4/2013 10:09:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
It's worded fine: "Why have marriage in the first place?" Obviously the question is not directed to Christians, Jews, or Jehovah's Witnesses.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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7/4/2013 10:09:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/4/2013 9:17:16 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/3/2013 7:34:33 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 7/3/2013 11:28:43 AM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
This had occurred several time now to people I have spoke to in real life about religion and various topics that concern a religious element, for example gay marriage, I have discussed the topic several time with others, when I ask others why gays should not be able to marry some simply reply "because the [insert religious scripture] says otherwise" and simply leave it as that, though they fail to realise that the person they are discussing the topic with may not believe in the scripture or their belief system at all. Some people assume that we all just believe what they believe, this annoys me greatly and it also constitutes as failure to produce their own rational arguments just by substituting them with one meagre religious statement.

People who feel the need to proselytize others are looking for self-validation. It's not so much they are trying to convince you for your sake, but for theirs.

People who feel the need to proselytise others, and do so with truth, are simply obeying the command of Christ to all his followers.

After all it is the example he set, and what he trained his disciples (which means follower) to do.

Those who don't feel driven to do so simply don't have enough faith, because that is what faith drives you to do, as well as love of fellow man. If you love people you want to share the future with them. James 2:24-26
ASV(i) 24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. 25 And in like manner was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.

If that were true, then, Christians would respect each other's interpretation of the Christian bible, and clearly they don't; which is evidenced by so many different Christian denominations, factions, and splits. Even people in the same family can't agree on that which Christian scriptures actually mean. That's why one family member judges and uses the Bible to beat other family members over the head.

It's not about living in peace with one another; it's about shoving your own private interpretation of the Bible down the throats of others.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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7/4/2013 10:27:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/3/2013 11:28:43 AM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
This had occurred several time now to people I have spoke to in real life about religion and various topics that concern a religious element, for example gay marriage, I have discussed the topic several time with others, when I ask others why gays should not be able to marry some simply reply "because the [insert religious scripture] says otherwise" and simply leave it as that, though they fail to realise that the person they are discussing the topic with may not believe in the scripture or their belief system at all. Some people assume that we all just believe what they believe, this annoys me greatly and it also constitutes as failure to produce their own rational arguments just by substituting them with one meagre religious statement.

Many people including religious do not really understand the demand for spiritual purity and why God desires it and why He wants us to lean towards it. The subject of homosexual activity is quite misconstrued, while you have the religious spouting off commands and instructions they forget the process and why God wants obedience.

The one thing I could NOT stress more is that the rejection of a gay lifestyle simply has NOTHING to do with hate at all! It has to do with aligning ourselves with what God considers Holy and pure, this includes ALL sin not just some, ALL. Part of the process of eliminating sin and spiritual destruction is releasing the grip we have on our own flesh and submitting to the will of God to grow spiritually and become one with His nature and will.
However there is a process that believers endure before we have that desire. The desire to eliminate sin or weakness in our flesh does not just come natural, it is WORKED into us. So we must understand that there are things that must transpire before an individual is willing to be obedient and follow the will of God in their life. The more we desire to please God and to live by the Spirit, the more we submit our flesh and the appetite we have to live in sin and please our own temptations.

Since by nature we really have no wanting to do only what God wants and to live a life that would honor and please Him, we misconstrue what religious people say and what God wants for us and we perceive His instructions as hate and tyranny and we end up missing the point as well as the learning and benefits that follow. What God really wants is us to conform to His Spirit and will, the type of sin is irrelevant it is the outcome that we are looking for, when we obey God's word we then receive and inherit the blessings that follow.

It is my contention that addressing the issue of sin with an unbeliever will do no good without the desire to please God. Once we realize what sin is and what sin does and why God expects a certain level of integrity and spiritual purity we then can look at our flesh in a different light, but until we get to that point it just appears unfair and mean so we miss what God is trying to accomplish within us. It is important to understand WHY God is giving instructions rather than just what He is saying.

Romans 12:1,2 because Romans 8:5-9
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/4/2013 11:03:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/4/2013 10:09:19 AM, annanicole wrote:
It's worded fine: "Why have marriage in the first place?" Obviously the question is not directed to Christians, Jews, or Jehovah's Witnesses.

I didn't think it was aimed at anyone in particular it is just the way you worded it it sounded more you like you were challenging the need for marriage, rather than asking others what they thought.

If you had asked people why they thought we need marriage that would have been more understandable as meaning what you now say you meant.

Whilst it is true that however you word things someone will misunderstand it, you still need to take care over it. You have to remember that others cannot read your mind, only your words.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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7/4/2013 11:27:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/4/2013 9:08:27 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/3/2013 8:50:37 PM, annanicole wrote:


Why have marriage at all? Seriously.

You claim a faith in God and the bible and you can say something like this? If that ins't hypocritical, nothing is.

Sorry but I find that despicable.

Two reasons for not having same sex marriage:, if you wish to fit in with God's requirements.

Firstly, God conducted the first marriage as the standard for future formation of families. One man one woman in a permanent relationship.

Genesis 2:22-24
ASV(i) 22 and the rib, which Jehovah God had taken from the man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And the man said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Notice it does say "wife".

The method of acknowledging that relationship has changed over the centuries, and now there is a legal arrangement in most companies, which, because it does not infringe God's law, has to be followed by all faithful followers of Christ. (Romans 13).

In Jesus' time, the method was much simpler. The marriage was announced, and the groom simply went in public to the home of the bride's parents and walked her through the streets to his home. That was all that was needed. There was no legal requirement for anything else.

Secondly, any form of sexual relations outside of marriage comes under the heading of fornication, and fornication is totally against God's law. (Acts 15:18;29, 1 Corinthians 6:9,10.)

No arrangement was made for two people of the same gender to marry, so all sexual acts, however minor, between them still count as fornication.

Of course if you don;t want to benefit from all of God's promises, by all means go ahead, just don't complain when you lose out because of your actions.

(Revelation 22:11)

I wonder, if God permitted all these other non-ideal "non-traditional" forms of marriage (polygamy, forcible marriage after rape, etc), why wouldn't he permit ssm? It would be no worse, and in some cases a lot better than other examples of permitted marriage in the bible....
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/4/2013 12:10:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/4/2013 11:27:25 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/4/2013 9:08:27 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/3/2013 8:50:37 PM, annanicole wrote:


Why have marriage at all? Seriously.

You claim a faith in God and the bible and you can say something like this? If that ins't hypocritical, nothing is.

Sorry but I find that despicable.

Two reasons for not having same sex marriage:, if you wish to fit in with God's requirements.

Firstly, God conducted the first marriage as the standard for future formation of families. One man one woman in a permanent relationship.

Genesis 2:22-24
ASV(i) 22 and the rib, which Jehovah God had taken from the man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And the man said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Notice it does say "wife".

The method of acknowledging that relationship has changed over the centuries, and now there is a legal arrangement in most companies, which, because it does not infringe God's law, has to be followed by all faithful followers of Christ. (Romans 13).

In Jesus' time, the method was much simpler. The marriage was announced, and the groom simply went in public to the home of the bride's parents and walked her through the streets to his home. That was all that was needed. There was no legal requirement for anything else.

Secondly, any form of sexual relations outside of marriage comes under the heading of fornication, and fornication is totally against God's law. (Acts 15:18;29, 1 Corinthians 6:9,10.)

No arrangement was made for two people of the same gender to marry, so all sexual acts, however minor, between them still count as fornication.

Of course if you don;t want to benefit from all of God's promises, by all means go ahead, just don't complain when you lose out because of your actions.

(Revelation 22:11)

I wonder, if God permitted all these other non-ideal "non-traditional" forms of marriage (polygamy, forcible marriage after rape, etc), why wouldn't he permit ssm? It would be no worse, and in some cases a lot better than other examples of permitted marriage in the bible....

God hasn't permitted any, as such, however neither has he, for the time being, prevented them except by pointing out how He feels about them and then leaving it to us to make up our minds whether we wish to comply.

Revelation 22:11
ASV(i) 11 He that is unrighteous, let him do unrighteousness still: and he that is filthy, let him be made filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him do righteousness still: and he that is holy, let him be made holy still.

However He has set a time limit on all these things, and those practicing them will not survive the judgement that is soon to come.

It is all part of a "Court Case" which has been given a set time to be conducted, and if the accused Satan, has not proven his case by then, which he can't and hasn't, he, and all who knowingly, or in ignorance, follow him will be destroyed also.

Unfair?

Well there is no excuse for ignorance.

The whole thing is laid out for us in scripture, and is now being preached throughout the entire inhabited earth as foretold at Matthew 24:14, before the end comes. That means the only ones who will be ignorant are the ones who have refused to listen, therefore they have no excuse left. In human law it is called deliberate ignorance.

Any who have not had chance to learn in the past, and have died before Armageddon, will get their chance in the resurrection, before a final test for comes after they have had time to practice.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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7/4/2013 3:38:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/4/2013 11:27:25 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
I wonder, if God permitted all these other non-ideal "non-traditional" forms of marriage (polygamy, forcible marriage after rape, etc), why wouldn't he permit ssm? It would be no worse, and in some cases a lot better than other examples of permitted marriage in the bible....

I think the word "permitted" is key. Polygamy especially seems to have a negative tone throughout the entire bible even in the OT. Solomon event tells his sons that women are not what will make you happy.
stubs
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7/4/2013 3:39:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
My apologies. Now thinking about it "permit" is probably not a great word. Certainly it was allowed to happen, but I don't think God was overjoyed with it by any means.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/4/2013 4:03:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/4/2013 3:39:47 PM, stubs wrote:
My apologies. Now thinking about it "permit" is probably not a great word. Certainly it was allowed to happen, but I don't think God was overjoyed with it by any means.

No, he wasn't Solomon went wrong in so many ways, and paid the price for it
DakotaKrafick
Posts: 1,517
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7/4/2013 7:54:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/3/2013 8:50:37 PM, annanicole wrote:
"This had occurred several time now to people I have spoke to in real life about religion and various topics that concern a religious element, for example gay marriage"

Why have marriage at all? Seriously.

I agree. Marriage, as being legally recognized by the government, should be abolished altogether.