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How can anyone be gullible enough to believe.

MadCornishBiker
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7/6/2013 7:10:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
How can anyone be gullible enough to believe that Jesus be Gods son, and be God at the same time?

The truth of the matter is, that he isn't, wasn't and never could be

John 1:14 makes that very clear indeed:

John 1:14
ASV(i) 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.

If you are begotten you are either born or created

If you are the only-begotten son you are the only son created, by the one who created you, without assistance.

There is literally no other way to understand that which is why trinitarians try so hard to wriggle out of it or ignore it.

Was the one who became Jesus God's only son, either in heaven or in the flesh?

Job 2:1
ASV(i) 1 Again it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, that Satan came also among them to present himself before Jehovah.

So that is a No to the first.

Luke 3:38
ASV(i) 38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

So that's a No to that also.

Therefore the statement can only be taken as a whole and to mean that Christ was the only creation that God performed alone.

Those are not the only scriptures that knock the Trinity on the head. There are many of them:

(1 Corinthians 11:3)"But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God

(Mark 12:28-30)" Now one of the scribes that had come up and heard them disputing, knowing that he had answered them in a fine way, asked him: "Which commandment is first of all?" 29"Jesus answered: "The first is, "Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah, 30"and you must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength. Cross references to Deuteronomy 6:4""Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah - footnote, "Or, "Jehovah is our God, Jehovah is one [or, there is one Jehovah]." Lit., "Jehovah our God [is] Jehovah one." Heb., Yehwah' 'Elo"heh'nu Yehwah' 'e"chadh'."

(Deuteronomy 5:7) You must never have any other gods against my face.

(Isaiah 42:8) "I am Jehovah. That is my name; and [b]to no one else shall I give my own glory[/b], neither my praise to graven images.

(Zechariah 14:9) And Jehovah must become king over all the earth. In that day Jehovah will prove to be one, and his name one.

(Mark 12:29) Jesus answered: "The first is, "Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah,

(1 Corinthians 8:6) there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.

(Matt. 26:39) "Going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt."", Revised Standard Translation

(John 8:17,18) In your law it is written that the testimony of two men is true; I bear witness to myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness to me." Revised Standard Translation:

(John 5:30) I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.

(John 8:28) Therefore Jesus said: "When once YOU have lifted up the Son of man, then YOU will know that I am [he], and that I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me I speak these things.

(John 12:49) because I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak.

(John 4:34) Jesus said to them: "My food is for me to do the will of him that sent me and to finish his work.

(John 5:36) But I have the witness greater than that of John, for the very works that my Father assigned me to accomplish, the works themselves that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father dispatched me.

(John 17:4) I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do.

(Romans 15:6) that with one accord YOU may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(2 Corinthians 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort,

(Ephesians 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ

(1 Peter 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

All of those scriptures show that Christ is not and never was equal to God. Four of them even say that Jehovah is Christ's God, that being the case there is no way on earth or in heaven they can be equal. Pick any translation you will find that the majority of them say the same or similar in those verses.

And there are more where they came from.

(Deuteronomy 5:7)
(Isaiah 42:8)
(Zechariah 14:9)
(Matt. 26:39)
(Mark 12:28-30)
(John 4:34)
(John 5:30)
(John 5:36)
(John 8:17,18)
(John 8:28)
(John 12:49)
(John 17:4)
(Romans 15:6)
(1 Corinthians 8:6)
(1 Corinthians 11:3)
(2 Corinthians 1:3)
(Ephesians 1:3)
(1 Peter 1:3)

Even history is against it.

History of The Trinity

The growth of the doctrine of a triune God, is briefly but plainly, set forth in the following historical facts about official doctrine:

A.D. 29 Jesus said, "The Lord our God is one Lord" (Mark 12:29).

A.D. 57 Paul said, "To us there is but one God" (1 Cor. 8:6).

A.D. 96 Clement said, "Christ was sent by God".

A.D. 120 "Apostles' Creed": "I believe in God the Father".

A.D. 150 Justin Martyr, introduces Greek Philosophy.

A.D. 170 The word "Trias", appears first in Christian literature.

A.D. 200. "Trinitas" is first introduced by Tertullian.

A.D. 280 Origen, opposes prayers to Christ.

A.D. 260 Sabellius: "Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three names for the same God".

A.D. 300 Trinitarian prayers unknown in the Church.

A.D. 325 "Nicene Creed" afflrms Christ to be "Very God of Very God".

A.D. 370 Doxology composed.

A.D. 381. Council of Constantinople invents "Three persons in One God".

A.D. 388 Emperor Theodosius threatens punishment to all who won't worship the Trinity.

A.D. 519 Doxology ordered to be sung in all the Churches.

A.D. 669 Clergy commanded to commit to memory the "Athanasian Creed".

A.D. 826 Bishop Basil, required the clergy to repeat the " Athanasian Creed" every Sunday.

Are people who believe in the trinity truly gullible?

Of course thy are they are being suckered in by Satan and his Apostate churches, and ignoring any scripture that goes against it, just because their bibles have been deliberately changed

http://archive.org...

Compare John 1:1 in the Interlinear columns and the English only column and see for yourselves
justin.graves
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7/6/2013 7:33:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Trinity verses:

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Matthew 28:19
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

1 John 5:7
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Matthew 3:17
"And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

You can either twist words from verses and try to squeeze out a doctrine of no trinity... or you can look at the obvious verses.
-Justin K. Graves, Demon Hunter
MadCornishBiker
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7/6/2013 7:56:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 7:33:29 AM, justin.graves wrote:
Trinity verses:

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Matthew 28:19
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

1 John 5:7
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Matthew 3:17
"And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

You can either twist words from verses and try to squeeze out a doctrine of no trinity... or you can look at the obvious verses.

Matthew 3:17 proves only that Christ was, God's son.

1 John 5:7 is a well known addition which came into such disrepute that it has been removed from many translations.

Again, Matthew 28:19 by separating the two with a comma, and putting "and the son" shows them to be two separate beings.

John 1:1? Well looked at in the original Greek it is such an obvious mistranslation, even to those of us who don;t know the languaae.

A comparison of the interlinear and the English only column proves that it has been deliberately altered as http://archive.org... shows clearly.

You have just demonstrated exactly what I mean by "gullible".
MadCornishBiker
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7/6/2013 8:06:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 7:35:20 AM, justin.graves wrote:
Or how about John 10:30?

"I and the Father are one."

One in what sense?

How about:

John 10:38
NWT 38 But if I am doing them, even though YOU do not believe me, believe the works, in order that YOU may come to know and may continue knowing that the Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father."

John 10:38
ASV(i) 38 But if I do them, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.

They cannot literally be "in" each other except in the manner shown in the NWT version above.

John 17:11
NWT 11 "Also, I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world+and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are.

John 17:11
ASV(i) 11 And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are.

All be one, literally? lol, that's what I name about gullible

John 17:21
NWT 21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth.

John 17:21
ASV(i) 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me.

Doh!

You see, that's what I mean by gullible. You have accepted what you have been told without first testing it to destruction.

You have to test every theory to destruction, not try to prove it, try to prove it wrong.

When you fail you can be reasonably sure you're not too far off. The trinity is far too easy to destroy because it simply doesn't make sense, nor fit in with the entirety of scripture.
justin.graves
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7/6/2013 9:28:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 8:06:40 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/6/2013 7:35:20 AM, justin.graves wrote:
Or how about John 10:30?

"I and the Father are one."

One in what sense?

How about:

John 10:38
NWT 38 But if I am doing them, even though YOU do not believe me, believe the works, in order that YOU may come to know and may continue knowing that the Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father."

John 10:38
ASV(i) 38 But if I do them, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.

They cannot literally be "in" each other except in the manner shown in the NWT version above.


John 17:11
NWT 11 "Also, I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world+and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are.

John 17:11
ASV(i) 11 And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are.

All be one, literally? lol, that's what I name about gullible

John 17:21
NWT 21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth.

John 17:21
ASV(i) 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me.

Doh!

You see, that's what I mean by gullible. You have accepted what you have been told without first testing it to destruction.

You have to test every theory to destruction, not try to prove it, try to prove it wrong.

When you fail you can be reasonably sure you're not too far off. The trinity is far too easy to destroy because it simply doesn't make sense, nor fit in with the entirety of scripture.

Oh, I see. It's the NWT. No use arguing with a Bible that was created to get rid of anything that would contradict a cult.
-Justin K. Graves, Demon Hunter
Fruitytree
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7/6/2013 10:20:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 7:35:20 AM, justin.graves wrote:
Or how about John 10:30?

"I and the Father are one."

Why does this have to mean they are one person when they obviously are not?!Jesus is one with his God just means he with God, and follows what God commanded him to the letter, so youcan take whatever he says for the truth from God.
Fruitytree
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7/6/2013 10:21:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 10:20:09 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/6/2013 7:35:20 AM, justin.graves wrote:
Or how about John 10:30?

"I and the Father are one."

Why does this have to mean they are one person when they obviously are not?!Jesus is one with his God just means he with God, and follows what God commanded him to the letter, so youcan take whatever he says for the truth from God.

See the previous verses to put yourself in the context!
bulproof
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7/6/2013 10:33:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Satan in is Opus Vol II is actually attempting to convince everybody that his Vol I is a load of crap even though he knows that both volumes aren't worth the used toilet paper they are written on.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Chase200mph
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7/6/2013 10:46:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
How can anyone be gullible enough to believe that Jesus be Gods son, and be God at the same time?

Answer: Much in the same way anyone comes to believe in a bible created for ignorant slaves can still find answers that can lead to god.

The truth of the matter is, that he isn't, wasn't and never could be

Answer: The truth of the matter is that Jesus was created lifetimes after the claim time of his existence. That is you place the books of the bible in a chronological order he started out as man and grew into a god as the legend expanded.

John 1:14 makes that very clear indeed:

Answer: No, nothing in John is clear as there were NO John but rather many that claimed to be John and John is not the name of a Hebrew follower of anybody. This is where your amazing adventure both starts and ends".you cannot use a false source to verify and false idea created around a false existence. The bible is not a source of anything other than a source of deceit created to fool and pacify the most ignorant and untrained minds. The son never existed because he like his father never existed. The bible is the least enlighten book of all times, it knows nothing of love let alone wisdom, it is the most ridiculous story ever told". It is nothing more than a political tool, it worked then and is nothing more than complete lunacy today. The entire story of Jesus is a failure, it is NOT insightful, it is not loving, it is not peaceful, it is not wise".end of story. According to the bible, how could it be? A bunch of self-proclaimed illiterate Hebrew slaves wrote down a story in Greek after their deaths".this should be your first red flag.
While an otherwise educated intelligent person may still believe in the bible, that person would have no educated or intellectual reason to do so.
MadCornishBiker
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7/6/2013 11:12:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 10:46:36 AM, Chase200mph wrote:
How can anyone be gullible enough to believe that Jesus be Gods son, and be God at the same time?

Answer: Much in the same way anyone comes to believe in a bible created for ignorant slaves can still find answers that can lead to god.

The truth of the matter is, that he isn't, wasn't and never could be

Answer: The truth of the matter is that Jesus was created lifetimes after the claim time of his existence. That is you place the books of the bible in a chronological order he started out as man and grew into a god as the legend expanded.

John 1:14 makes that very clear indeed:

Answer: No, nothing in John is clear as there were NO John but rather many that claimed to be John and John is not the name of a Hebrew follower of anybody. This is where your amazing adventure both starts and ends".you cannot use a false source to verify and false idea created around a false existence. The bible is not a source of anything other than a source of deceit created to fool and pacify the most ignorant and untrained minds. The son never existed because he like his father never existed. The bible is the least enlighten book of all times, it knows nothing of love let alone wisdom, it is the most ridiculous story ever told". It is nothing more than a political tool, it worked then and is nothing more than complete lunacy today. The entire story of Jesus is a failure, it is NOT insightful, it is not loving, it is not peaceful, it is not wise".end of story. According to the bible, how could it be? A bunch of self-proclaimed illiterate Hebrew slaves wrote down a story in Greek after their deaths".this should be your first red flag.

I pity you in your determined ignorance in the face of all the evidence.

They didn't write it in Greek either, lol. It was originally written part in Hebrew and parts in Aramaic. The Greek Septuagint is a translation.

Even their your ignorance shines through.
justin.graves
Posts: 220
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7/6/2013 11:33:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people"s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. "
-Justin K. Graves, Demon Hunter
annanicole
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7/6/2013 1:49:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
MCB: "They didn't write it in Greek either, lol. It was originally written part in Hebrew and parts in Aramaic. The Greek Septuagint is a translation."

Anna: That's a deliberate misrepresentation. The New Testament WAS written in Greek, and the Septuagint is a GREEK translation of the Old Testament, the very translation quoted so often by Jesus and others. Thus, the Greek Septuagint IS accepted scripture insofar as Jesus and the apostles quoted it.

Don't let him mislead you: the New Testament was originally written in Koine Greek. Small portions may have been written in other languages and translated almost immediately into Greek, but most of it was written in Greek to start with.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
justin.graves
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7/6/2013 2:07:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 1:49:19 PM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "They didn't write it in Greek either, lol. It was originally written part in Hebrew and parts in Aramaic. The Greek Septuagint is a translation."

Anna: That's a deliberate misrepresentation. The New Testament WAS written in Greek, and the Septuagint is a GREEK translation of the Old Testament, the very translation quoted so often by Jesus and others. Thus, the Greek Septuagint IS accepted scripture insofar as Jesus and the apostles quoted it.

Don't let him mislead you: the New Testament was originally written in Koine Greek. Small portions may have been written in other languages and translated almost immediately into Greek, but most of it was written in Greek to start with.

Thanks for saying EXACTLY what I was thinking.
-Justin K. Graves, Demon Hunter
MadCornishBiker
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7/6/2013 2:07:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 1:49:19 PM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "They didn't write it in Greek either, lol. It was originally written part in Hebrew and parts in Aramaic. The Greek Septuagint is a translation."

Anna: That's a deliberate misrepresentation. The New Testament WAS written in Greek, and the Septuagint is a GREEK translation of the Old Testament, the very translation quoted so often by Jesus and others. Thus, the Greek Septuagint IS accepted scripture insofar as Jesus and the apostles quoted it.

Don't let him mislead you: the New Testament was originally written in Koine Greek. Small portions may have been written in other languages and translated almost immediately into Greek, but most of it was written in Greek to start with.

I thought we were talking about the OT. That was definitely written in Hebrew and Aramaic. My apologies if I got the wrong end of that particular stick.

The NT was indeed originally written in Hebrew (Matthew) and Koine Greek (The rest). Some of the letters may also have been written in Hebrew if they were aimed at Hebrew speaking congregations.

If you get yourself a copy of a Hebrew/English NT you will see that Matthew uses the tetragrammaton a lot, whereas the others don't. That shows that his Gospel was written in Hebrew originally. It also shows that Christ really did make his Father's name known to Matthew at least.
MadCornishBiker
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7/6/2013 2:20:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 1:29:35 PM, stubs wrote:
Begotten simply means something like "unique" As in he wasn't like the other sons of God

Actually it doesn't.

be"got"ten [bih-got-n] Show IPA
verb
a past participle of beget.

Dictionary.com Unabridged
be"get [bih-get]
verb (used with object), be"got or ( Archaic ) be"gat; be"got"ten or be"got; be"get"ting.
1.
(especially of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring).
2.
to cause; produce as an effect: a belief that power begets power.

As you can see your definition is false.
MadCornishBiker
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7/6/2013 2:21:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 2:07:13 PM, justin.graves wrote:
At 7/6/2013 1:49:19 PM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "They didn't write it in Greek either, lol. It was originally written part in Hebrew and parts in Aramaic. The Greek Septuagint is a translation."

Anna: That's a deliberate misrepresentation. The New Testament WAS written in Greek, and the Septuagint is a GREEK translation of the Old Testament, the very translation quoted so often by Jesus and others. Thus, the Greek Septuagint IS accepted scripture insofar as Jesus and the apostles quoted it.

Don't let him mislead you: the New Testament was originally written in Koine Greek. Small portions may have been written in other languages and translated almost immediately into Greek, but most of it was written in Greek to start with.

Thanks for saying EXACTLY what I was thinking.

Then you were equally wrong, as was my understanding f what we were referring to .
annanicole
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7/6/2013 2:27:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Oh, the whole problem is that MCB thinks that Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God BEFORE HE WAS BORN OF MARY. That's the key. Thus, he makes Jesus Christ no different from Adam in that respect.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Composer
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7/7/2013 3:17:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 2:27:01 PM, annanicole wrote:
Oh, the whole problem is that MCB thinks that Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God BEFORE HE WAS BORN OF MARY. That's the key. Thus, he makes Jesus Christ no different from Adam in that respect.
IF Story book jebus is 100% human, that leaves NO room for either a Supernatural god nor an angel!

You dupes are merely arguing where to place your deckchairs on your respective ideological Titanics!

QED
MadCornishBiker
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7/7/2013 6:23:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 2:27:01 PM, annanicole wrote:
Oh, the whole problem is that MCB thinks that Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God BEFORE HE WAS BORN OF MARY. That's the key. Thus, he makes Jesus Christ no different from Adam in that respect.

Of curse he was, He couldn't be the only begotten son after he was born of Mary because the Angels and Adam would have been before him, and they were all begotten of God (and His son).

According to your beliefs Jesus in human form as actually the son of Holy Spirit, because that is how the Gospels describe his conception, Mary became pregnant "by Holy Spirit".

Your own arguments are self defeating. Was it God, or was it Holy Spirit? Or is holy spirit as I beleive simply a tool used by God, and anyone else He allows to use it?

Matthew 1:18
ASV(i) 18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

You really do need a consistent theology.
johnlubba
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7/7/2013 7:01:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 7:33:29 AM, justin.graves wrote:
Trinity verses:

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Matthew 28:19
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

1 John 5:7
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Matthew 3:17
"And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

You can either twist words from verses and try to squeeze out a doctrine of no trinity... or you can look at the obvious verses.

The key word here is, Beginning........Beginning of what? God has no beginning, and neither does he have an end, The creation has a beginning, this means Jesus was with God at the beginning of creation, Not that Jesus is actually God, Jesus is Begotten as MadCornishBiker states, being begotten he is eiher born or created, he is not God.
johnlubba
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7/7/2013 7:04:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 7:33:29 AM, justin.graves wrote:
Trinity verses:

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Matthew 28:19
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

1 John 5:7
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Matthew 3:17
"And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

You can either twist words from verses and try to squeeze out a doctrine of no trinity... or you can look at the obvious verses.

Above it states that God claims Jesus is his son....So how does a father also become the son? impossible logic to come to terms with.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/7/2013 7:39:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/7/2013 7:04:13 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 7/6/2013 7:33:29 AM, justin.graves wrote:
Trinity verses:

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Matthew 28:19
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

1 John 5:7
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Matthew 3:17
"And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

You can either twist words from verses and try to squeeze out a doctrine of no trinity... or you can look at the obvious verses.

Above it states that God claims Jesus is his son....So how does a father also become the son? impossible logic to come to terms with.

That's partly because he is sticking with the demonstrably false translation of John 1:1
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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7/7/2013 11:25:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Anna: Oh, the whole problem is that MCB thinks that Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God BEFORE HE WAS BORN OF MARY. That's the key. Thus, he makes Jesus Christ no different from Adam in that respect.

MCB: Of curse he was, He couldn't be the only begotten son after he was born of Mary because the Angels and Adam would have been before him, and they were all begotten of God (and His son).

Anna: Prove it. Prove that "only begotten" does not refer to the virgin birth. Adam and the angels were created, not begotten. And I'd like some Bible verses to back up your answer.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/8/2013 8:55:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/7/2013 11:25:10 AM, annanicole wrote:
Anna: Oh, the whole problem is that MCB thinks that Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God BEFORE HE WAS BORN OF MARY. That's the key. Thus, he makes Jesus Christ no different from Adam in that respect.

MCB: Of curse he was, He couldn't be the only begotten son after he was born of Mary because the Angels and Adam would have been before him, and they were all begotten of God (and His son).

Anna: Prove it. Prove that "only begotten" does not refer to the virgin birth. Adam and the angels were created, not begotten. And I'd like some Bible verses to back up your answer.

It cannot refer to the virgin birth because according to the report Gabriel made to Mary she was pregnant by Holy Spirit, so since you believe holy spirit to be a sentient being, Christ was the son of holy spirit not of God.

The first perfect human son of God was Adam, therefore the human form of Christ cannot possibly be His only begotten.

The Angels are also called sons of God.

Since that means it can only apply to the pre-human form of the one who became Christ that means that he can only have been created, and the only thing that God created alone.

Q, as they say E. D..
annanicole
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7/8/2013 11:48:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
MCB: "The first perfect human son of God was Adam, therefore the human form of Christ cannot possibly be His only begotten.

The Angels are also called sons of God."

Anna: Who was the mother of Adam, if he was a begotten son of God? Ditto for angels. You see, neither were "begotten" sons of God. There is only one begotten Son of God.

MCB: "It cannot refer to the virgin birth because according to the report Gabriel made to Mary she was pregnant by Holy Spirit, so since you believe holy spirit to be a sentient being, Christ was the son of holy spirit not of God."

Anna: All that would prove would be that the Spirit is also God.

*****

Anna: "And I'd like some Bible verses to back up your answer."

MCB: (blank)

Anna: I didn't see any.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/8/2013 12:37:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/8/2013 11:48:31 AM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "The first perfect human son of God was Adam, therefore the human form of Christ cannot possibly be His only begotten.

The Angels are also called sons of God."

Anna: Who was the mother of Adam, if he was a begotten son of God? Ditto for angels. You see, neither were "begotten" sons of God. There is only one begotten Son of God.

MCB: "It cannot refer to the virgin birth because according to the report Gabriel made to Mary she was pregnant by Holy Spirit, so since you believe holy spirit to be a sentient being, Christ was the son of holy spirit not of God."

Anna: All that would prove would be that the Spirit is also God.

*****

Anna: "And I'd like some Bible verses to back up your answer."

MCB: (blank)

Anna: I didn't see any.

Don't you know them? Sorry I didn't realise you knew so little. I keep forgetting that part of your lack of understanding is your lack of knowledge of scripture.

Job 2:1
ASV(i) 1 Again it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, that Satan came also among them to present himself before Jehovah.

The Angels are sons of God.

Luke 3:38
ASV(i) 38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

Adam was the first human son of God, Christ was the second.

Or was he?

Matthew 1:18
ASV(i) 18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

Since you believe the holy spirit is a sentient being that makes Christ the son of holy spirit not son of God.

Sort of knocks two of your beliefs out of court with one swipe. The only way Christ, according to Matthew, can be the son of God is if holy spirit is simply, as I believe the power that God uses to do His work, and supplies to all who need it to do His will.
v3nesl
Posts: 4,463
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7/8/2013 12:46:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 7:10:49 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
How can anyone be gullible enough to believe that Jesus be Gods son, and be God at the same time?

The truth of the matter is, that he isn't, wasn't and never could be

John 1:14 makes that very clear indeed:

John 1:14
ASV(i) 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.

If you are begotten you are either born or created


No, if you're the 'only begotten son', you're born. So there's a heavenly mother. Fly your freak flag high, man!
This space for rent.
MadCornishBiker
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7/8/2013 1:20:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/8/2013 11:48:31 AM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "The first perfect human son of God was Adam, therefore the human form of Christ cannot possibly be His only begotten.

The Angels are also called sons of God."

Anna: Who was the mother of Adam, if he was a begotten son of God? Ditto for angels. You see, neither were "begotten" sons of God. There is only one begotten Son of God.

MCB: "It cannot refer to the virgin birth because according to the report Gabriel made to Mary she was pregnant by Holy Spirit, so since you believe holy spirit to be a sentient being, Christ was the son of holy spirit not of God."

Anna: All that would prove would be that the Spirit is also God.

*****

Anna: "And I'd like some Bible verses to back up your answer."

MCB: (blank)

Anna: I didn't see any.

Begotten does not only mean brought to birth.

be"got"ten [bih-got-n] Show IPA
verb
a past participle of beget.

Related forms
self-be"got"ten, adjective
well-be"got"ten, adjective
Dictionary.com Unabridged
be"get [bih-get] Show IPA
verb (used with object), be"got or ( Archaic ) be"gat; be"got"ten or be"got; be"get"ting.
1.
(especially of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring).
2.
to cause; produce as an effect: a belief that power begets power.

Definition 2 definitely allows for begetting to be creating.

Even though the perfect human, Christ was born of woman he was s till created as a fertilized egg in her womb. No human or any other being begat him by sexual means.

As ill thought out. You never "destruction test" your beliefs, if you did you would realise just how far wrong they are.

So you see, all were begotten sons of God since they were all created directly or indirectly by God.

You only accept meanings of words that fit in with what you want to believe, you don;t examine them from all angles.

And you have now seen the verses, if not in this thread, in another. However I shall repeat them.

Luke 3:38
ASV(i) 38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

Job 2:1
ASV(i) 1 Again it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, that Satan came also among them to present himself before Jehovah.

Matthew 1:18
ASV(i) 18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.