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How to Choose a Religion

DebatingAccount
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7/9/2013 11:20:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Some of this may seem off-topic at first glance, but trust me, it all loops around.

When I ask you to describe color, what do you say? It looks...well...you can't really explain it. It's something that you must experience in order to understand. We have been trained to look at a color and identify it as green. But we never know if another person's green is the same as what we see. The only way you could possibly know what their green looks like is if you were them, and transferring the consciousness of someone to a different body is impossible so far as I know. If I didnt explain it thouroughly enough, please use the following link:

The same concept goes for all of of your senses among other things, one of which, is thought. Obviously you can tell someone what you were thinking, but they would never know if it was true or not. They have to trust you, because you alone, he who experienced it, are the only one who knows if you told the truth.

Now lets say I heard a voice from a man of infinite wisdom who only I am able to see or hear. He tells me that it is immoral to consume oranges. I decide to pass down his teachings, but I enjoy oranges. I instead tell the populace that it is immoral to consume apples. People question this, but I tell them that it is what the wise man decrees. Since I am the only one who is able to see or hear the wise man, they cannot disprove me. Hence, they obey, and apples cease to be consumed.

Jesus was the supposed child of God who heard directly from God and repeated what God had taught. These teachings are the commandments. Different commandments of God were interpreted differently by different prophets, all of which claimed to have heard the laws directly from God. The laws that each prophet claims to have heard were passed down and down and down, shaping current religion.

We established that thoughts could only be known to be true by the person experiencing them. The prophets of Christianity and Islam, Jesus and Muhammed, both passed down what they claim to have heard to generations after them, those generations passed down those teachings, and so forth. But if both men claim to have heard directly from god, and we as indviduals have no way of knowing which (if any) told the truth, how does someone choose one religion over the other?

Some say that they choose religion based on the teachings that appeal to them opposed to the deity that the religion claims to be canon. People like this don't choose religion for the right reasons. Christianity and Islam both specify the worship of one God and the following of his teachings. While both Christianity and Islam both believe in one God, there is a disagreement on what the God taught.

Unfortunately, the two people who claim to have heard from god have passed on different teachings altogether, and there is no way of seeing which is true.

So, the topic of debate is, how can you choose one religion over another if you have no way to know which is true? If you have no way of knowing what is true, is it right to receive penance for false worship?
1Devilsadvocate
Posts: 1,518
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7/10/2013 2:58:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The same way that you choose anything, study, examine, and weigh the evidence/arguments, and try to come to the best conclusion that you can, knowing that you just might be wrong, but that you did your best.
Don't be afraid to say "I don't know".
Always keep an open mind.
Last but not least, pray to God - whoever he may be, that he may set you on the path of ultimate truth.

"I the Lord search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds."
- Jeremiah 17:10

And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.
- Jeremiah 29:13

The simple inherit folly, but the prudent are crowned with knowledge.
-Proverbs 14:18 ESV

Whoever restrains his words has knowledge, and he who has a cool spirit is a man of understanding.
- Proverbs 17:27

Acquire truth and do not sell it--wisdom, and discipline, and understanding.
-Proverbs 23:23

"...You make known to me the path of life..."
- Psalm 16:11

"...Keep your servant also from willful sins..."
- Psalm 19:13

Lead me in your truth and teach me, for you are the God of my salvation; for you I wait all the day long.
- Psalm 25:5

Send out your light and your truth; let them lead me; let them bring me to your holy hill and to your dwelling!
- Psalm 43:3

Behold, You desire truth in the inner being; make me therefore to know wisdom in my inmost heart.
- Psalm 51: 6

Teach me your way, O LORD, that I may walk in your truth; unite my heart to fear your name.
- Psalm 86:11

These are the things that you shall do: Speak the truth to one another; render in your gates judgments that are true and make for peace;
- Zechariah 8:16

"love truth and peace"
- Zechariah 8:19

"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
- John 4:24

"...and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
- John 8:32

If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.
- James 1:5

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
- Matthew 7:7

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.
- 2 Timothy 2:15

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
- 1 Corinthians 3:18
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
"Albert Einstein

http://www.twainquotes.com... , http://thewritecorner.wordpress.com... , http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com...
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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7/10/2013 1:13:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The video is very nice, but I don't agree with you on some of your assumptions.

The prophets of God basically heard from the same God, revealed what they heard to their people, it's then that the divergence came, not from the prophets , but from the people.

I mean the prophets did have the correct understanding of the message, and did transmit it correctly, but then the people worked on the message, each one adding an Idea and removing another.

That's why it is important to check how authentically was the message reported.

There are not many religions (creeds) from God, there is one, the many religions are people work.
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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7/12/2013 10:06:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/9/2013 11:20:03 PM, DebatingAccount wrote:
Some of this may seem off-topic at first glance, but trust me, it all loops around.

When I ask you to describe color, what do you say? It looks...well...you can't really explain it. It's something that you must experience in order to understand. We have been trained to look at a color and identify it as green. But we never know if another person's green is the same as what we see. The only way you could possibly know what their green looks like is if you were them, and transferring the consciousness of someone to a different body is impossible so far as I know. If I didnt explain it thouroughly enough, please use the following link:

If we understood the brain well enough, we may be able to answer some of those questions, and experience senses which we don't currently possess.


The same concept goes for all of of your senses among other things, one of which, is thought. Obviously you can tell someone what you were thinking, but they would never know if it was true or not. They have to trust you, because you alone, he who experienced it, are the only one who knows if you told the truth.

Now lets say I heard a voice from a man of infinite wisdom who only I am able to see or hear. He tells me that it is immoral to consume oranges. I decide to pass down his teachings, but I enjoy oranges. I instead tell the populace that it is immoral to consume apples. People question this, but I tell them that it is what the wise man decrees. Since I am the only one who is able to see or hear the wise man, they cannot disprove me. Hence, they obey, and apples cease to be consumed.

Jesus was the supposed child of God who heard directly from God and repeated what God had taught. These teachings are the commandments. Different commandments of God were interpreted differently by different prophets, all of which claimed to have heard the laws directly from God. The laws that each prophet claims to have heard were passed down and down and down, shaping current religion.

We established that thoughts could only be known to be true by the person experiencing them. The prophets of Christianity and Islam, Jesus and Muhammed, both passed down what they claim to have heard to generations after them, those generations passed down those teachings, and so forth. But if both men claim to have heard directly from god, and we as indviduals have no way of knowing which (if any) told the truth, how does someone choose one religion over the other?

How do they know why aren't just experiencing psychosis. Which is more likely, and what evidence can we use to figure the answer out?


Some say that they choose religion based on the teachings that appeal to them opposed to the deity that the religion claims to be canon. People like this don't choose religion for the right reasons. Christianity and Islam both specify the worship of one God and the following of his teachings. While both Christianity and Islam both believe in one God, there is a disagreement on what the God taught.

Unfortunately, the two people who claim to have heard from god have passed on different teachings altogether, and there is no way of seeing which is true.

So, the topic of debate is, how can you choose one religion over another if you have no way to know which is true? If you have no way of knowing what is true, is it right to receive penance for false worship?

How does knowing which god to worship determine what people deserve to receive? Why should worshipping affect anything this god does?
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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7/12/2013 10:07:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/10/2013 1:13:13 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
The video is very nice, but I don't agree with you on some of your assumptions.

The prophets of God basically heard from the same God, revealed what they heard to their people, it's then that the divergence came, not from the prophets , but from the people.

I mean the prophets did have the correct understanding of the message, and did transmit it correctly, but then the people worked on the message, each one adding an Idea and removing another.

That's why it is important to check how authentically was the message reported.

There are not many religions (creeds) from God, there is one, the many religions are people work.

So how can you follow a religion? They've all been desecrated by the people.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
cybertron1998
Posts: 5,818
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7/12/2013 12:23:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/10/2013 2:58:05 AM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
The same way that you choose anything, study, examine, and weigh the evidence/arguments, and try to come to the best conclusion that you can, knowing that you just might be wrong, but that you did your best.
Don't be afraid to say "I don't know".
Always keep an open mind.
Last but not least, pray to God - whoever he may be, that he may set you on the path of ultimate truth.

"I the Lord search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds."
- Jeremiah 17:10

And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.
- Jeremiah 29:13

The simple inherit folly, but the prudent are crowned with knowledge.
-Proverbs 14:18 ESV

Whoever restrains his words has knowledge, and he who has a cool spirit is a man of understanding.
- Proverbs 17:27

Acquire truth and do not sell it--wisdom, and discipline, and understanding.
-Proverbs 23:23

"...You make known to me the path of life..."
- Psalm 16:11

"...Keep your servant also from willful sins..."
- Psalm 19:13

Lead me in your truth and teach me, for you are the God of my salvation; for you I wait all the day long.
- Psalm 25:5

Send out your light and your truth; let them lead me; let them bring me to your holy hill and to your dwelling!
- Psalm 43:3

Behold, You desire truth in the inner being; make me therefore to know wisdom in my inmost heart.
- Psalm 51: 6

Teach me your way, O LORD, that I may walk in your truth; unite my heart to fear your name.
- Psalm 86:11

These are the things that you shall do: Speak the truth to one another; render in your gates judgments that are true and make for peace;
- Zechariah 8:16

"love truth and peace"
- Zechariah 8:19

"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
- John 4:24

"...and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
- John 8:32

If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.
- James 1:5

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
- Matthew 7:7

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.
- 2 Timothy 2:15

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
- 1 Corinthians 3:18

i highlighted your second may because it brings an odd thought to mind: Is our god a lie? all of you think about that ignoring all teachings in your church. look at what you have seen not what you have been told. by teachings i even mean don't look at your holy texts. that is the writings of someone else, thus could be wrong.
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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7/12/2013 5:32:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 10:07:48 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 7/10/2013 1:13:13 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
The video is very nice, but I don't agree with you on some of your assumptions.

The prophets of God basically heard from the same God, revealed what they heard to their people, it's then that the divergence came, not from the prophets , but from the people.

I mean the prophets did have the correct understanding of the message, and did transmit it correctly, but then the people worked on the message, each one adding an Idea and removing another.

That's why it is important to check how authentically was the message reported.

There are not many religions (creeds) from God, there is one, the many religions are people work.

So how can you follow a religion? They've all been desecrated by the people.

Follow what is authentically reported, or what is common to all religions that are based on revelations. It is not very difficult the thing you have to avoid is innovate things that were not revealed in your way to worship.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/12/2013 6:21:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/9/2013 11:20:03 PM, DebatingAccount wrote:
Some of this may seem off-topic at first glance, but trust me, it all loops around.

When I ask you to describe color, what do you say? It looks...well...you can't really explain it. It's something that you must experience in order to understand. We have been trained to look at a color and identify it as green. But we never know if another person's green is the same as what we see. The only way you could possibly know what their green looks like is if you were them, and transferring the consciousness of someone to a different body is impossible so far as I know. If I didnt explain it thouroughly enough, please use the following link:

The same concept goes for all of of your senses among other things, one of which, is thought. Obviously you can tell someone what you were thinking, but they would never know if it was true or not. They have to trust you, because you alone, he who experienced it, are the only one who knows if you told the truth.

Now lets say I heard a voice from a man of infinite wisdom who only I am able to see or hear. He tells me that it is immoral to consume oranges. I decide to pass down his teachings, but I enjoy oranges. I instead tell the populace that it is immoral to consume apples. People question this, but I tell them that it is what the wise man decrees. Since I am the only one who is able to see or hear the wise man, they cannot disprove me. Hence, they obey, and apples cease to be consumed.

Jesus was the supposed child of God who heard directly from God and repeated what God had taught. These teachings are the commandments. Different commandments of God were interpreted differently by different prophets, all of which claimed to have heard the laws directly from God. The laws that each prophet claims to have heard were passed down and down and down, shaping current religion.

We established that thoughts could only be known to be true by the person experiencing them. The prophets of Christianity and Islam, Jesus and Muhammed, both passed down what they claim to have heard to generations after them, those generations passed down those teachings, and so forth. But if both men claim to have heard directly from god, and we as indviduals have no way of knowing which (if any) told the truth, how does someone choose one religion over the other?

Some say that they choose religion based on the teachings that appeal to them opposed to the deity that the religion claims to be canon. People like this don't choose religion for the right reasons. Christianity and Islam both specify the worship of one God and the following of his teachings. While both Christianity and Islam both believe in one God, there is a disagreement on what the God taught.

Unfortunately, the two people who claim to have heard from god have passed on different teachings altogether, and there is no way of seeing which is true.

So, the topic of debate is, how can you choose one religion over another if you have no way to know which is true? If you have no way of knowing what is true, is it right to receive penance for false worship?

There really is only one way to know.

And that is to compare their teachings with holy Scripture, prayerfully asking God through Christ the holy spirit to help you to find the truth, and help you to serve him the way he wants to be served.

God will help you providing your motivation is right. If you only want the truth for your own purposes, you won't get it, however if you want the truth, for God's purposes and are prepared to be used by him then you will get the truth.

And when you think about the attitude you need to show to get the truth from God keep this one the Scripture in the back of your mind at all times:

Luke 17:10
10 So YOU, also, when YOU have done all the things assigned to YOU, say, "We are good-for-nothing slaves. What we have done is what we ought to have done.""

That is the sort of attitude you have to show to truly serve God, and to be given the truth by him.

God gives the truth to those he chooses. But if he gives you the truth, it won't be for your purposes. It would be so you can help carry out his purposes.

One thing however I can promise you, to serve God is the biggest privilege you ever enjoy.
Composer
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7/12/2013 8:46:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 6:21:33 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
God gives the truth to those he chooses.
Obviously IF it literally existed outside of Story book Land it DIDN'T give YOU the Truth!

e.g. YOU claimed Story book god never shared its name with others and I proved you lied and the Truth was in ME, NOT YOU!

You are thus exposed as a lying Satan masquerading as an angel of light according to your own KIT Story book, LMAO! (2 Cor. 11:14)

Your vindicated mentor & successful Cult buster benevolent Truth teller moi!
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/13/2013 4:32:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 8:46:52 PM, Composer wrote:
At 7/12/2013 6:21:33 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
God gives the truth to those he chooses.
Obviously IF it literally existed outside of Story book Land it DIDN'T give YOU the Truth!

e.g. YOU claimed Story book god never shared its name with others and I proved you lied and the Truth was in ME, NOT YOU!

You are thus exposed as a lying Satan masquerading as an angel of light according to your own KIT Story book, LMAO! (2 Cor. 11:14)

Your vindicated mentor & successful Cult buster benevolent Truth teller moi!

The only thing you have proved in all of your posts is that they appear to come from a highly delusional person.
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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7/13/2013 7:08:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 5:32:01 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/12/2013 10:07:48 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 7/10/2013 1:13:13 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
The video is very nice, but I don't agree with you on some of your assumptions.

The prophets of God basically heard from the same God, revealed what they heard to their people, it's then that the divergence came, not from the prophets , but from the people.

I mean the prophets did have the correct understanding of the message, and did transmit it correctly, but then the people worked on the message, each one adding an Idea and removing another.

That's why it is important to check how authentically was the message reported.

There are not many religions (creeds) from God, there is one, the many religions are people work.

So how can you follow a religion? They've all been desecrated by the people.

Follow what is authentically reported, or what is common to all religions that are based on revelations. It is not very difficult the thing you have to avoid is innovate things that were not revealed in your way to worship.

How do you check?
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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7/13/2013 7:43:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/13/2013 7:08:27 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 7/12/2013 5:32:01 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/12/2013 10:07:48 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 7/10/2013 1:13:13 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
The video is very nice, but I don't agree with you on some of your assumptions.

The prophets of God basically heard from the same God, revealed what they heard to their people, it's then that the divergence came, not from the prophets , but from the people.

I mean the prophets did have the correct understanding of the message, and did transmit it correctly, but then the people worked on the message, each one adding an Idea and removing another.

That's why it is important to check how authentically was the message reported.

There are not many religions (creeds) from God, there is one, the many religions are people work.

So how can you follow a religion? They've all been desecrated by the people.

Follow what is authentically reported, or what is common to all religions that are based on revelations. It is not very difficult the thing you have to avoid is innovate things that were not revealed in your way to worship.

How do you check?

It's a lot of work, there are already scholars taking care of it, as an example I will take the Book of Isaiah, this book is not all of it authentic but the first 39 pages are. so you can compare the creed of authentic books and you will find them authentic and not conflicting, some may have additional knowledge, but you will find no contradiction.
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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7/13/2013 7:45:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/13/2013 7:43:59 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/13/2013 7:08:27 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 7/12/2013 5:32:01 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/12/2013 10:07:48 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 7/10/2013 1:13:13 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
The video is very nice, but I don't agree with you on some of your assumptions.

The prophets of God basically heard from the same God, revealed what they heard to their people, it's then that the divergence came, not from the prophets , but from the people.

I mean the prophets did have the correct understanding of the message, and did transmit it correctly, but then the people worked on the message, each one adding an Idea and removing another.

That's why it is important to check how authentically was the message reported.

There are not many religions (creeds) from God, there is one, the many religions are people work.

So how can you follow a religion? They've all been desecrated by the people.

Follow what is authentically reported, or what is common to all religions that are based on revelations. It is not very difficult the thing you have to avoid is innovate things that were not revealed in your way to worship.

How do you check?

It's a lot of work, there are already scholars taking care of it, as an example I will take the Book of Isaiah, this book is not all of it authentic but the first 39 pages are. so you can compare the creed of authentic books and you will find them authentic and not conflicting, some may have additional knowledge, but you will find no contradiction.

How do you tell which pages are authentic?
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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7/13/2013 8:44:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/13/2013 7:45:57 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:


How do you tell which pages are authentic?

Historical Situation U94; The historical situation goes through three stages: in chapters 1"39 the prophet speaks of a judgment which will befall the wicked Israelites; in chapters 40"55 the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple (587"BCE) is treated as an accomplished fact and the fall of Babylon as an imminent threat; and in chapters 56"66 the fall of Babylon is already in the past.

http://books.google.ca...

Basically not all the book was the words of the Prophet Isaiah, only the 39 first pages. then the next up to page 55 maybe the words of a different prophet.
DebatingAccount
Posts: 3
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7/17/2013 10:28:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/10/2013 2:58:05 AM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
The same way that you choose anything, study, examine, and weigh the evidence/arguments, and try to come to the best conclusion that you can, knowing that you just might be wrong, but that you did your best.
Don't be afraid to say "I don't know".
Always keep an open mind.
Last but not least, pray to God - whoever he may be, that he may set you on the path of ultimate truth.

"I the Lord search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds."
- Jeremiah 17:10

And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.
- Jeremiah 29:13

The simple inherit folly, but the prudent are crowned with knowledge.
-Proverbs 14:18 ESV

Whoever restrains his words has knowledge, and he who has a cool spirit is a man of understanding.
- Proverbs 17:27

Acquire truth and do not sell it--wisdom, and discipline, and understanding.
-Proverbs 23:23

"...You make known to me the path of life..."
- Psalm 16:11

"...Keep your servant also from willful sins..."
- Psalm 19:13

Lead me in your truth and teach me, for you are the God of my salvation; for you I wait all the day long.
- Psalm 25:5

Send out your light and your truth; let them lead me; let them bring me to your holy hill and to your dwelling!
- Psalm 43:3

Behold, You desire truth in the inner being; make me therefore to know wisdom in my inmost heart.
- Psalm 51: 6

Teach me your way, O LORD, that I may walk in your truth; unite my heart to fear your name.
- Psalm 86:11

These are the things that you shall do: Speak the truth to one another; render in your gates judgments that are true and make for peace;
- Zechariah 8:16

"love truth and peace"
- Zechariah 8:19

"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
- John 4:24

"...and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
- John 8:32

If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.
- James 1:5

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
- Matthew 7:7

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.
- 2 Timothy 2:15

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
- 1 Corinthians 3:18

If I'm just supposed to wing it and pray to a god hoping that its the right one, whats stopping me from going off and creating my own religion and praying to a god that I create? (nothing) So far, "God" has pretty much thrown us into a world in which the odds of randomly choosing the right god to pray to are 1/insert how many religions exist here

So thats the percent chance that I will not worship the right guy. Now, from 1/ insert how many religions exist here, take all the religions that damn you to hell for not worshipping the right guy. Thats probably a big chunk. Thats the percentage that I have of burning for all of eternity.

All of that is if there were no 'signs' that I should worship a certain religion that depicts a certain god. Right now, I've received no signs. No god has whispered in my mind, "christianity is the correct form at which you should worship me".

Surely the almighty Lord would have the power to at least let us individuals know he exists. THEN he could give us the choice of worshipping him or not, AND I wouldve received a fair warning that he is the true one.

So, I've received zero guidence from the Big Guy, zero signs, zero solid pieces of proof that he exists, and he expects me to choose from all of the number of religions that exist, and choose him. Explain to me why he would go through all this instead of outright telling me that he exists.

This is the equivalent of telling someone to pick from a crowd of seventy people and identifying William Scott (a random person), and being shot if I am wrong.
Sower4GS
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7/17/2013 10:53:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I don't speak man language. And Torah/Law points out sin, like do not eat bacon and squid. Don't worship on Sunday and not Shabbat, Saturday. Don't pull weeds on the Shabbat (Sat.) Don't be foolish and hate YHWH? by saying His Law is not to be followed. Soi turn from these sins. That's the way Meechie. You keep preaching that the Law is to be followed and souls will turn to the Living Torah (Jesus). That is what you are doing, right? It better be, You don;t want to turn people from the commands. The book of Matthew
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/18/2013 6:08:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/17/2013 10:53:34 PM, Sower4GS wrote:
I don't speak man language. And Torah/Law points out sin, like do not eat bacon and squid. Don't worship on Sunday and not Shabbat, Saturday. Don't pull weeds on the Shabbat (Sat.) Don't be foolish and hate YHWH? by saying His Law is not to be followed. Soi turn from these sins. That's the way Meechie. You keep preaching that the Law is to be followed and souls will turn to the Living Torah (Jesus). That is what you are doing, right? It better be, You don;t want to turn people from the commands. The book of Matthew

on the contrary, you speak nothing but man language, you have no spiritual understanding whatever.
MadCornishBiker
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7/18/2013 6:13:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/17/2013 10:28:48 PM, DebatingAccount wrote:
At 7/10/2013 2:58:05 AM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
The same way that you choose anything, study, examine, and weigh the evidence/arguments, and try to come to the best conclusion that you can, knowing that you just might be wrong, but that you did your best.
Don't be afraid to say "I don't know".
Always keep an open mind.
Last but not least, pray to God - whoever he may be, that he may set you on the path of ultimate truth.

"I the Lord search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds."
- Jeremiah 17:10

And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.
- Jeremiah 29:13

The simple inherit folly, but the prudent are crowned with knowledge.
-Proverbs 14:18 ESV

Whoever restrains his words has knowledge, and he who has a cool spirit is a man of understanding.
- Proverbs 17:27

Acquire truth and do not sell it--wisdom, and discipline, and understanding.
-Proverbs 23:23

"...You make known to me the path of life..."
- Psalm 16:11

"...Keep your servant also from willful sins..."
- Psalm 19:13

Lead me in your truth and teach me, for you are the God of my salvation; for you I wait all the day long.
- Psalm 25:5

Send out your light and your truth; let them lead me; let them bring me to your holy hill and to your dwelling!
- Psalm 43:3

Behold, You desire truth in the inner being; make me therefore to know wisdom in my inmost heart.
- Psalm 51: 6

Teach me your way, O LORD, that I may walk in your truth; unite my heart to fear your name.
- Psalm 86:11

These are the things that you shall do: Speak the truth to one another; render in your gates judgments that are true and make for peace;
- Zechariah 8:16

"love truth and peace"
- Zechariah 8:19

"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
- John 4:24

"...and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
- John 8:32

If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.
- James 1:5

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
- Matthew 7:7

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.
- 2 Timothy 2:15

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
- 1 Corinthians 3:18

If I'm just supposed to wing it and pray to a god hoping that its the right one, whats stopping me from going off and creating my own religion and praying to a god that I create? (nothing) So far, "God" has pretty much thrown us into a world in which the odds of randomly choosing the right god to pray to are 1/insert how many religions exist here

So thats the percent chance that I will not worship the right guy. Now, from 1/ insert how many religions exist here, take all the religions that damn you to hell for not worshipping the right guy. Thats probably a big chunk. Thats the percentage that I have of burning for all of eternity.

All of that is if there were no 'signs' that I should worship a certain religion that depicts a certain god. Right now, I've received no signs. No god has whispered in my mind, "christianity is the correct form at which you should worship me".

Surely the almighty Lord would have the power to at least let us individuals know he exists. THEN he could give us the choice of worshipping him or not, AND I wouldve received a fair warning that he is the true one.

So, I've received zero guidence from the Big Guy, zero signs, zero solid pieces of proof that he exists, and he expects me to choose from all of the number of religions that exist, and choose him. Explain to me why he would go through all this instead of outright telling me that he exists.

This is the equivalent of telling someone to pick from a crowd of seventy people and identifying William Scott (a random person), and being shot if I am wrong.

if you pray, through Christ Jesus, for God's help in finding out what he wants you to know, and how he wants you to use that knowledge, you will eventually do so.

However, and as always a however, you have to do so in full faith that God will keep his promises, as will his son, and with the right attitude.

James 1:5-8
5 So, if any one of YOU is lacking in wisdom, let him keep on asking God, for he gives generously to all and without reproaching; and it will be given him. 6 But let him keep on asking in faith, not doubting at all, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about. 7 In fact, let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from Jehovah; 8 he is an indecisive man, unsteady in all his ways.

However, it is important that you remain patient. It took over 20 years to my prayers to be answered. God answers your prayers as the time, which he believes is right for you.
Sower4GS
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7/18/2013 6:21:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/27/2013 12:43:34 PM, Sower4GS wrote:
Anyone that is of the Christian mindset that the Torah is done away with is wrong, This is not true as the Scriptures state. That person is not a good person to listen to since He does not agree with God who is YHWH and His Son Yahushua haMashiach. (Jesus Christ).
Mat_5:18 "For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.1 Footnote: 1Lk. 16:17.

Oh the Torah hasn't passed away, and it is still a guide to the principles Christians should live under, but we are not under law.

madcornish says "oh, oh...."

The Christians are right, Jw doctrine (even though you were an exile and you still follow the core deception) is EASY to refute.

Sucking up to Christian doctrine just so you can "win their hearts" and slowly with that fake JW kindness I am SO well acquainted with as I have worked with many of them for literally aver a decade, so hot and cold like you and others that are die hard foolish for the JW lie, subtly like a serpent feeding them your bitter horseradish until they vomit and then trying to feed it to them again.

To be under the Law means to break the law. To be under sin, duh. The law points out sin and a quick study of Paul's letters will easily show even you mb, that the law is referred in this way. Common Christian newel's all around. They know this so well that they even use it in Christian Theology, of course. I am very familiar with Christian Theology as I was a Christian for over 14+ years. It is common Scriptural knowledge.

So when you tell somebody like me that openly claims to observe the law that I am under it you are say I am sinning, even if I were lying by saying I was keeping it and was not (which I am striving to keep it accurately, but this is not the main point). Then what you are doing is saying this.

One who says that He keeps the Law by observing it is sinning against God.

How can one sin against God when He is obeying His Law MB?

This is utterly impossible. COMPLETELY by all natural and physical laws even in the world system. The dictionary will show you quickly this is true because I know you are just squirming like a toad right now to prove me wrong and you cannot.
If you do, all I have to do is let it sit for a minute and people will see your contradiction and even now they can see it MB.

So when you said that the Christians should live under...the law you are saying they should sin. Got o any Church ANY church in the entire world of Christendom and they will tell you along with all who study Scripture that to be under the law is to sin. It points out sin. EVERY ONE knows that and if you did which
I am sure you did, as ALL people do, then the reason you quickly tried to refute me and hope I would not bring it up is because in the past I have not responded to you.

You think YHWH does not know what you are up to. You just got called out.

I know how your religious system of a mind works, even tough this is open truth, right now you are scouring this writing to see if there is even one little error you can point out so that you can try and pull the attention off yourself.

Typical JW behavior. Typical.

MB "Oh, I'm not really in the Kingdom Hall right now, or I just read their, literature, or whatever, I would not know exactly because I have not been reading any of your rubbish. But YHWH has had me consistently monitoring your responses to me by a quick skim and I have seen constant errors, contradictions and faults in your responses to me and I know since you have been talking to many others that you have made tons others as the rebellion against you continues, some weak may falter toward you, but that is how the JW movement has grown till know, common knowledge in the Christian denomination. You are one of many MB that shy's a little from allegiance from the JW's so you can appear to be friendly to the Christians. "Oh I am not really with them", yea right, liar.

Well Mad One, do you have a good answer? No of course not, there is no excuse for your blunder.
Bannanawamajama
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7/18/2013 8:36:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Thats kind of the Pascal's wager inverted isnt it? Its just as dangerous to pick a religion as to not.

So just stick to what's common between them. Don't kill, dont steal, dont lie or treat others badly. If you have to pray to God, just ask for guidance and aid from God, whoever you are. If he's an understanding God, he'll realize how tough it is to distinguish between such similar religions. If he's not, you're probably boned anyways.
dattaswami
Posts: 322
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7/18/2013 11:33:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
World Religions

If anyone says that his/her religion is the only path to God and that other paths lead to hell, I have one humble question. The question is for every religion without any trace of partiality. The simple question is: Today I have heard your Religion and if I follow that, I reach God and if I refuse I will go to the hell for my own fault. This is very much reasonable. But before your ancestors discovered our country, the literature or even the name of your religion was not known to our ancestor and he could not reach God for no fault of him. But your ancestor reached God through your religion at that time.

Even if I assume that My ancestor will take rebirth now and will follow your religion to reach God, such possibility is ruled out because you say that there is no rebirth for the soul. Thus my ancestor suffered forever for no fault of him and the responsibility for this falls on the partiality of God. Had the God been impartial, He could have revealed your religion to all the countries at a time. Had that happened, my ancestor might have also reached God as your ancestor. Therefore your statement proves your own God partial.

The only way left over to you to make your God impartial is that you must accept that your God appeared in all the countries at a time in various forms and preached your path in various languages. The same form did not appear everywhere and the same language does not exist everywhere. The syllabus and explanation are one and the same, though the media and teachers are different. Can you give any alternative reasonable answer to my question other than this? Certainly not! Any person of any religion to any other religion can pose this question.

Moreover every religion states that their God only created this world. Unfortunately this world is one only and every God cannot create the same world. There are no many worlds to justify that each God created His own world. Therefore any human being with an iota of commonsense has to agree that there is only one impartial God who created this one world and He came in different forms to different countries and preached the same path in all the languages simultaneously at one time.

At 7/9/2013 11:20:03 PM, DebatingAccount wrote:
So, the topic of debate is, how can you choose one religion over another if you have no way to know which is true? If you have no way of knowing what is true, is it right to receive penance for false worship?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/19/2013 11:41:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/18/2013 6:21:05 AM, Sower4GS wrote:
At 6/27/2013 12:43:34 PM, Sower4GS wrote:
Anyone that is of the Christian mindset that the Torah is done away with is wrong, This is not true as the Scriptures state. That person is not a good person to listen to since He does not agree with God who is YHWH and His Son Yahushua haMashiach. (Jesus Christ).
Mat_5:18 "For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.1 Footnote: 1Lk. 16:17.

Oh the Torah hasn't passed away, and it is still a guide to the principles Christians should live under, but we are not under law.

madcornish says "oh, oh...."

The Christians are right, Jw doctrine (even though you were an exile and you still follow the core deception) is EASY to refute.

Sucking up to Christian doctrine just so you can "win their hearts" and slowly with that fake JW kindness I am SO well acquainted with as I have worked with many of them for literally aver a decade, so hot and cold like you and others that are die hard foolish for the JW lie, subtly like a serpent feeding them your bitter horseradish until they vomit and then trying to feed it to them again.

To be under the Law means to break the law. To be under sin, duh. The law points out sin and a quick study of Paul's letters will easily show even you mb, that the law is referred in this way. Common Christian newel's all around. They know this so well that they even use it in Christian Theology, of course. I am very familiar with Christian Theology as I was a Christian for over 14+ years. It is common Scriptural knowledge.

So when you tell somebody like me that openly claims to observe the law that I am under it you are say I am sinning, even if I were lying by saying I was keeping it and was not (which I am striving to keep it accurately, but this is not the main point). Then what you are doing is saying this.

One who says that He keeps the Law by observing it is sinning against God.

How can one sin against God when He is obeying His Law MB?

This is utterly impossible. COMPLETELY by all natural and physical laws even in the world system. The dictionary will show you quickly this is true because I know you are just squirming like a toad right now to prove me wrong and you cannot.
If you do, all I have to do is let it sit for a minute and people will see your contradiction and even now they can see it MB.

So when you said that the Christians should live under...the law you are saying they should sin. Got o any Church ANY church in the entire world of Christendom and they will tell you along with all who study Scripture that to be under the law is to sin. It points out sin. EVERY ONE knows that and if you did which
I am sure you did, as ALL people do, then the reason you quickly tried to refute me and hope I would not bring it up is because in the past I have not responded to you.

You think YHWH does not know what you are up to. You just got called out.

I know how your religious system of a mind works, even tough this is open truth, right now you are scouring this writing to see if there is even one little error you can point out so that you can try and pull the attention off yourself.

Typical JW behavior. Typical.

MB "Oh, I'm not really in the Kingdom Hall right now, or I just read their, literature, or whatever, I would not know exactly because I have not been reading any of your rubbish. But YHWH has had me consistently monitoring your responses to me by a quick skim and I have seen constant errors, contradictions and faults in your responses to me and I know since you have been talking to many others that you have made tons others as the rebellion against you continues, some weak may falter toward you, but that is how the JW movement has grown till know, common knowledge in the Christian denomination. You are one of many MB that shy's a little from allegiance from the JW's so you can appear to be friendly to the Christians. "Oh I am not really with them", yea right, liar.

Well Mad One, do you have a good answer? No of course not, there is no excuse for your blunder.

what blunder? I have made o blunder.
Fruitytree
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7/19/2013 7:51:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/18/2013 11:33:32 PM, dattaswami wrote:
World Religions

Well this is the position of Islam about people who don't know or can't know , knowing that Islam is the closure of messages from God till the day of judgement:
Allah Says (interpretation of meaning): {And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give
warning).}[17:15].

The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) said: "On the Day of the Resurrection, four kinds of people will dispute." A deaf
man, a mad man, a man in the feeblest old age and a man who died in natural
disposition. The deaf says: Oh, my God! Islam came to me but I couldn't
hear anything of it. The mad man says: Oh, my God! Islam came while
children were slinging excrement of camels at me. The man of the
feeblest old age says: Oh, my God! Islam had come while I was bad at
understanding. As for that the one who died in the innate peculiarity of
character he says: Oh, my Lord! I didn't hear of your Messenger. Then,
they make a solemn covenant with Allah to obey Him.

After that, He sends to them a Messenger saying to them: Enter the Hell-fire.
The Prophet(Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) said: "By Whom my soul in His hands, if they enter the Hell-fire, they
will find it cool and peaceful."

Basically, as long as one doesn't reject the prophets of God arrogantly, he may be saved.
Bannanawamajama
Posts: 125
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7/19/2013 9:38:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/18/2013 11:33:32 PM, dattaswami wrote:
World Religions

If anyone says that his/her religion is the only path to God and that other paths lead to hell, I have one humble question. The question is for every religion without any trace of partiality. The simple question is: Today I have heard your Religion and if I follow that, I reach God and if I refuse I will go to the hell for my own fault. This is very much reasonable. But before your ancestors discovered our country, the literature or even the name of your religion was not known to our ancestor and he could not reach God for no fault of him. But your ancestor reached God through your religion at that time.

Even if I assume that My ancestor will take rebirth now and will follow your religion to reach God, such possibility is ruled out because you say that there is no rebirth for the soul. Thus my ancestor suffered forever for no fault of him and the responsibility for this falls on the partiality of God. Had the God been impartial, He could have revealed your religion to all the countries at a time. Had that happened, my ancestor might have also reached God as your ancestor. Therefore your statement proves your own God partial.

The only way left over to you to make your God impartial is that you must accept that your God appeared in all the countries at a time in various forms and preached your path in various languages. The same form did not appear everywhere and the same language does not exist everywhere. The syllabus and explanation are one and the same, though the media and teachers are different. Can you give any alternative reasonable answer to my question other than this? Certainly not! Any person of any religion to any other religion can pose this question.

Moreover every religion states that their God only created this world. Unfortunately this world is one only and every God cannot create the same world. There are no many worlds to justify that each God created His own world. Therefore any human being with an iota of commonsense has to agree that there is only one impartial God who created this one world and He came in different forms to different countries and preached the same path in all the languages simultaneously at one time.




I had the same questions about if my ancestors would burn in hell until I watched this video. I believe it will answer all the questions you have and several you never would have asked.

Of course it doesn't change the fact that even if I decide to convert to Christianity it would mean accepting my grandmother is burning in hell while I'm in heaven, so thats still bad.

At 7/19/2013 7:51:06 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/18/2013 11:33:32 PM, dattaswami wrote:
World Religions

Well this is the position of Islam about people who don't know or can't know , knowing that Islam is the closure of messages from God till the day of judgement:
Allah Says (interpretation of meaning): {And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give
warning).}[17:15].


I'm interested in reading this part, where you talk about how God can forgive people even on the day of Judgement, but I tried googling Quran 17:15 and couldn't find a passage that talked about that. Should I be looking in the Surat-Al Isra?
Fruitytree
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7/19/2013 11:20:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/19/2013 9:38:47 PM, Bannanawamajama wrote:
At 7/19/2013 7:51:06 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/18/2013 11:33:32 PM, dattaswami wrote:
World Religions

Well this is the position of Islam about people who don't know or can't know , knowing that Islam is the closure of messages from God till the day of judgement:
Allah Says (interpretation of meaning): {And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give
warning).}[17:15].


I'm interested in reading this part, where you talk about how God can forgive people even on the day of Judgement, but I tried googling Quran 17:15 and couldn't find a passage that talked about that. Should I be looking in the Surat-Al Isra?

Yes that's the right Sura, here is the full verse:

" Whosoever goeth right, it is only for (the good of) his own soul that he goeth right, and whosoever erreth, erreth only to its hurt. No laden soul can bear another's load, We never punish until we have sent a messenger. (15)"

In Quran the verse number comes by the end of the verse.

The other part is an authentic prophetic saying you don't find it in Quran, I can give you reference for it if it interests you as well.

to find the verse on your own try here:

http://quranexplorer.com...
Fruitytree
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7/19/2013 11:27:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/19/2013 9:38:47 PM, Bannanawamajama wrote:
About your ancestors, trust God, He is Just, He wouldn't punish a person that doesn't deserve it. and not because they were not aware of God message does that mean they automatically will go to Hell. God knows best, He is the judge not ourselves. you can always pray Him for them.
dattaswami
Posts: 322
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7/20/2013 5:41:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Prophet and Incarnation "

When a person says that He was sent by God as a messenger and that He has brought the message of the Lord, again the same problem appears. When God is giving the message to that person, nobody has seen it. That person is the single witness. Now the only alternative left in order to believe that the Lord Himself gave the knowledge, is that we have to test the knowledge.

Had we seen the transfer of the knowledge from God to that person with our eyes, we need not have tested that knowledge. It must definitely have been divine knowledge. If we have to believe a statement of that person without the simultaneous universal perception, then we have to believe even a fraud person who utters the same statement.

If you give us a piece of metal and say that is gold, since God gave it, we cannot believe it. Either we must have seen God giving it to you or we must analyze the metal. Moreover the knowledge is not like the piece of metal, which will not change by transfer. When a teacher explains a concept to somebody and asks him to deliver it to his students, it cannot be transferred as it is.

The transfer of knowledge consists of not only the concept but also the explanation. The concept might have been transferred but nobody other than that original teacher can give the same way of explanation of the concept by which the concept pierces into the heart. Therefore to propagate the divine knowledge, the Lord Himself comes down in a human form. Arjuna said the same in the Gita "Tvadanyah"" which means that except the Lord, nobody can preach the divine knowledge and clarify all spiritual doubts.

At 7/19/2013 7:51:06 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/18/2013 11:33:32 PM, dattaswami wrote:
World Religions

Well this is the position of Islam about people who don't know or can't know , knowing that Islam is the closure of messages from God till the day of judgement:
Allah Says (interpretation of meaning): {And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give
warning).}[17:15].
dattaswami
Posts: 322
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7/20/2013 5:52:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Lord comes in human form in every human generation to preach and give His direct presence. If the Lord comes in only one human generation, God becomes partial to that human generation because other human generations are not blessed with such opportunity. To see, to touch, to talk and to live with the human incarnation, He comes down as per the prayers of the devotees. The Lord comes to preach and so He will not enter the statues or animals or birds. Veda says "Na tasya pratima asti"" which means that God will not enter the inert statues.

Gita says "Manusheem tanu masritam" which means that God enters the human body only because the main purpose is to preach the human beings.

God is not modified in to human body in incarnation "

Gita says that the God is not modified into the human body (Avyaktam Vyakti Mapannam"). The person did not become the shirt but He wears the shirt as said in Gita (Manusheem Tanum"). The Lord wears the human body and does not become the human body. If you touch the shirt present on His body you are getting the experience of the inner body. Similarly the inner God gives His experience through the external body.

At 7/19/2013 7:51:06 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/18/2013 11:33:32 PM, dattaswami wrote:
World Religions

Well this is the position of Islam about people who don't know or can't know , knowing that Islam is the closure of messages from God till the day of judgement:
Bannanawamajama
Posts: 125
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7/20/2013 9:22:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Yes that's the right Sura, here is the full verse:

" Whosoever goeth right, it is only for (the good of) his own soul that he goeth right, and whosoever erreth, erreth only to its hurt. No laden soul can bear another's load, We never punish until we have sent a messenger. (15)"

In Quran the verse number comes by the end of the verse.

The other part is an authentic prophetic saying you don't find it in Quran, I can give you reference for it if it interests you as well.

to find the verse on your own try here:

http://quranexplorer.com...

Yes, if you wouldn't mind, I'd be interested in reading more about that prophet if you could give me a link or reference to look at

Thank you for the verse link