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Life After Death is not blind Faith

Passionate
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7/12/2013 5:00:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Belief in the hereafter is not based on blind faith?

Many people wonder as to how a person with a scientific and logical temperament, can lend any credence to the belief of life after death. People assume that anyone believing in the hereafter is doing so on the basis of blind belief.

My belief in the hereafter is based on a logical argument.

Concept of peace and human values is useless without the concept of hereafter

Is robbing a good or an evil act? A normal balanced person would say it is evil. How would a person who does not believe in the hereafter convince a powerful and influential criminal that robbing is evil?

Suppose I am the most powerful and influential criminal in the world. At the same time I am an Intelligent and a logical person. I say that robbing is good because it helps me lead a luxurious life. Thus robbing is good for me.

If anybody can put forward a single logical argument as to why it is evil for me, I will stop immediately. People usually put forward the following arguments:

The person who is robbed will face difficulties

Some may say that the person who is robbed will face difficulties. I certainly agree that it is bad for the person who is robbed. But it is good for me. If I rob a thousand dollars, I can enjoy a good meal at a 5 star restaurant.

Someone may rob you

Some people argue that someday I may be robbed. No one can rob me because I am a very powerful criminal and I have hundreds of bodyguards. I can rob anybody but nobody can rob me. Robbing may be a risky profession for a common man but not for an influential person like me.

The police may arrest you


Some may say, if you rob, you can be arrested by the police. The police cannot arrest me because I have the police on my payroll. I have the ministers on my payroll. I agree that if a common man robs, he will be arrested and it will be bad for him, but I am an extraordinarily influential and powerful criminal.

Give me one logical reason why it is bad for me and I will stop robbing.

Its easy money

Some may say its easy money and not hard-earned money. I agree completely that it is easy money, and that is one of the main reasons why I rob. If a person has the option of earning money the easy as well as the hard way, any logical person would choose the easy way.

It is against humanity


Some may say it is against humanity and that a person should care for other human beings. I counter argue by asking as to who wrote this law called "humanity" and why should I follow it?

This law may be good for the emotional and sentimental people but I am a logical person and I see no benefit in caring for other human beings.

It is a selfish act


Some may say that robbing is being selfish. It is true that robbing is a selfish act; but then why should I not be selfish? It helps me enjoy life.

No logical reason for robbing being an evil act


Hence all arguments that attempt to prove that robbing is an evil act are futile. These arguments may satisfy a common man but not a powerful and influential criminal like me. None of the arguments can be defended on the strength of reason and logic. It is no surprise that there are so many criminals in this world.

Similarly raping, cheating etc. can be justified as good for a person like me and there is no logical argument that can convince me that these things are bad.

A Muslim can convince a powerful and influential criminal


Now let us switch sides. Suppose you are the most powerful and influential criminal in the world, who has the police and the ministers on his payroll. You have army of thugs to protect you. I am a Muslim who will convince you that robbing, raping, cheating, etc. are evil acts.

Even if I put forth the same arguments to prove that robbing is evil the criminal will respond the same way as he did earlier.

I agree that the criminal is being logical and all his arguments are true only when he is the most powerful and influential criminal.

Every human being wants justice


Each and every human being desires justice. Even if he does not want justice for others he wants justice for himself. Some people are intoxicated by power and influence and inflict pain and suffering on others. The same people, however, would surely object if some injustice was done to them. The reason such people become insensitive to the suffering of others is that they worship power and influence. Power and influence, they feel, not only allows them to inflict injustice on others but also prevents others from doing likewise to them.

God is Most Powerful and Just


As a Muslim I would convince the criminal about the existence of Almighty God (refer to answer proving the existence of God). This God is more powerful than you and at the same time is also just.

The Glorious Qur"an says:
"Allah is never unjust
In the least degree" [Al-Qur"an 4:40]

Why does God not punish me?


The criminal, being a logical and scientific person, agrees that God exists, after being presented with scientific facts from the Qur"an. He may argue as to why God, if He is Powerful and Just, does not punish him.

The people who do injustice should be punished


Every person who has suffered injustice, irrespective of financial or social status, almost certainly wants the perpetrator of injustice to be punished. Every normal person would like the robber or the rapist to be taught a lesson. Though a large number of criminals are punished, many even go scot-free. They lead a pleasant, luxurious life, and even enjoy a peaceful existence. If injustice is done to a powerful and influential person, by someone more powerful and more influential than he, even such a person would want that person perpetrators of injustice to be punished.

This life is a test for the hereafter


This life is a test for the hereafter. The Glorious Qur"an says:

"He who created Death
And life that He
May try which of you
Is best in deed;
And He is the Exalted
In Might, Oft-Forgiving" [Al-Qur"an 67:2]

Final justice on day of judgment


The Glorious Qur"an says:

"Every soul shall have
A taste of death:
And only on the Day
Of Judgement shall you
Be paid your full recompense.
Only he who is saved
Far from the Fire
And admitted to the Garden
Will have attained
The object (of life):
For the life of this world
Is but goods and chattels
Of deception." [Al-Qur"an 3:185]

Final justice will be meted out on the Day of Judgement. After a person dies, he will be resurrected on the Day of Judgement along with the rest of mankind. It is possible that a person receives part of his punishment in this world. The final reward and punishment will only be in the hereafter. God Almighty may not punish a robber or a rapist in this world but he will surely be held accountable on the Day of Judgement and will be punished in the hereafter i.e. life after death.

What punishment can the human law give Hitler?


Hitler incinerated six million Jews during his reign of terror. Even if the police had arrested him, what punishment can the human law give Hitler for justice to prevail? The most they can do is to send Hitler to the gas chamber. But that will only be punishment for the killing of one Jew. What about the remaining five million, nine hundred and ninety nine thousand, nine hundred and ninety-nine Jews?

Allah can burn Hitler more than six million times in hellfire


Allah say in the Glorious Qur"an:

"Those who reject
Our signs, We shall soon
Cast into the Fire;
As often as their skins
Are roasted through,
We shall change them
For fresh skins,
That they m
Passionate
Passionate
Posts: 22
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7/12/2013 5:02:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
If Allah wishes he can incinerate Hitler six million times in the hereafter in the hellfire.

No concept of human values or good and bad without concept of hereafter

It is clear that without convincing a person about the hereafter, i.e. life after death, the concept of human values and the good or evil nature of acts is impossible to prove to any person who is doing injustice especially when he is influential and powerful.

Hereafter a logical belief

There are more than a thousand verses in the Glorious Qur"an, containing scientific facts (refer my book "Qur"an and Modern Science-Compatible or Incompatible?"). Many facts mentioned in the Qur"an have been discovered in the last few centuries. But science has not advanced to a level where it can confirm every statement of the Qur"an.

Suppose 80% of all that is mentioned in the Qur"an has been proved 100% correct. About the remaining 20%, science makes no categorical statement, since it has not advanced to a level, where it can either prove or disprove these statements. With the limited knowledge that we have, we cannot say for sure whether even a single percentage or a single verse of the Qur"an from this 20% portion is wrong. Thus when 80% of the Qur"an is 100% correct and the remaining 20% is not disproved, logic says that even the 20% portion is correct. The existence of the hereafter, which is mentioned in the Qur"an, falls in the 20% ambiguous portion which my logic says is correct. (By Zakir Naik)
Passionate
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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7/12/2013 7:08:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Morality would have no meaning without a here-after Justice.

What is the benefit of labelling actions as Good and Evil if there is no reward and punishment?!
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/12/2013 7:40:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 7:36:28 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
This site really needs a minimum age requirement for posting.

Really? Some of the teenagers here have better things to say then some of the old farts.
Graincruncher
Posts: 2,799
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7/12/2013 7:50:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Undoubtably true, but it's the only way I can see of cutting down on the amount of recycled tripe that gets posted. Every young theist thinks they have the same irrefutable original argument for their beliefs, hence garbage like this constantly cropping up. It's a barrier to interesting, productive debate because anyone who has a genuine interest and understanding of the topic is constantly having to wade through a sea of egocentric, ill-considered bobbins.

That said, there's a couple of supposedly 'mature intellects' on here who're dangerously stupid. Maybe not an age restriction, but some kind of test. If you can't get through it without making contradictory assertions and identifying a few very basic principles and facts, you shouldn't be allowed to post. Something like that.

I'm just really, really bored of reading the n-millionth iteration of the same moronic argument, because the person who posted it was too lazy to do any prior reading and too fragile of ego to back down once they've made such an arrogantly dramatic statement of authority.
Passionate
Posts: 22
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7/13/2013 12:42:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The Frustration can be understood, the repetitive post of the same topic is indeed boring and frustrating but if one have time and just go through some of them sometimes we gets some valuable arguments in that and this site is all about debates, opinion etc. So if one really find it boring then he should leave which that doesn't make him feel happy :). Or if have some points which can be shown for refutation then its more appreciable. Alas, Some People will always objection to opinions and that is an ongoing process. Everyone is stupid even-though not for some People.
Passionate
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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7/13/2013 6:59:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Even with an afterlife, the criminal may think it is good and not evil to rob other people.

Oh look, that nearly rhymed.
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AlbinoBunny
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7/13/2013 7:00:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 7:08:20 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
Morality would have no meaning without a here-after Justice.

What is the benefit of labelling actions as Good and Evil if there is no reward and punishment?!

The benefit of humanity?
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AlbinoBunny
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7/13/2013 7:03:06 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 5:02:19 AM, Passionate wrote:

Thus when 80% of the Qur"an is 100% correct and the remaining 20% is not disproved, logic says that even the 20% portion is correct. The existence of the hereafter, which is mentioned in the Qur"an, falls in the 20% ambiguous portion which my logic says is correct. (By Zakir Naik)

Logic definitely doesn't say that.
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Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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7/13/2013 7:08:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/13/2013 6:59:21 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
Even with an afterlife, the criminal may think it is good and not evil to rob other people.

Oh look, that nearly rhymed.

Yes he will think, but it will really be bad for him, even if he never is caught in this life..
Fruitytree
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7/13/2013 7:11:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/13/2013 7:00:38 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 7/12/2013 7:08:20 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
Morality would have no meaning without a here-after Justice.

What is the benefit of labelling actions as Good and Evil if there is no reward and punishment?!

The benefit of humanity?

But this take us back to the start, What benefits humanity is nonsense if there is no afterlife, what is the point of benefiting humanity ?!
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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7/13/2013 7:20:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/13/2013 7:08:40 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/13/2013 6:59:21 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
Even with an afterlife, the criminal may think it is good and not evil to rob other people.

Oh look, that nearly rhymed.

Yes he will think, but it will really be bad for him, even if he never is caught in this life..

It's bad anyway, wasn't the OP's point that the criminal wouldn't think it was bad?
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AlbinoBunny
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7/13/2013 7:27:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/13/2013 7:11:35 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/13/2013 7:00:38 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 7/12/2013 7:08:20 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
Morality would have no meaning without a here-after Justice.

What is the benefit of labelling actions as Good and Evil if there is no reward and punishment?!

The benefit of humanity?

But this take us back to the start, What benefits humanity is nonsense if there is no afterlife, what is the point of benefiting humanity ?!

What benefits humanity is nonsense with an afterlife. Some god makes arbitrary rules some of which don't seem to really benefit humanity, and promises a tummy-rub if you comply to its demands.
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Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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7/13/2013 11:33:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/13/2013 7:27:24 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 7/13/2013 7:11:35 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/13/2013 7:00:38 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 7/12/2013 7:08:20 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
Morality would have no meaning without a here-after Justice.

What is the benefit of labelling actions as Good and Evil if there is no reward and punishment?!

The benefit of humanity?

But this take us back to the start, What benefits humanity is nonsense if there is no afterlife, what is the point of benefiting humanity ?!

What benefits humanity is nonsense with an afterlife. Some god makes arbitrary rules some of which don't seem to really benefit humanity, and promises a tummy-rub if you comply to its demands.

What benefits humanity in the sense that it keeps it as the dominant kind all with saving its environment, is taking care f a loan you don't own, that you have to give back. if there was no loan, there would be no right and wrong!
dattaswami
Posts: 322
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7/18/2013 11:38:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hell, Heaven and Kingdom Of Lord

This universe is infinite. I am unable to show the existence of these super worlds to you. I accept my incapability. But you are also incapable to prove directly the non-existence of these super worlds. Have you taken all over the universe and said, "Here ends the universe. Beyond this point there is no universe. This is the compound wall of the space. Your super world does not exist anywhere". Therefore, there is equal chance for the existence and non-existence of the super worlds according to the theory of probability.

Now let us analyze of our cases. Both of us are eating to live. The basic needs are satisfied in the cases of both of us. You have spent extra time also in earning more money, which may give you some problems of health like sugar, B.P etc., due to over enjoying. I have not earned more money and I am healthy due to normal food. None of us will carry the money with us after death. The money given to the children may also be lost in several ways. Therefore, I do not find much difference between us, once the basic needs are satisfied. I am poor because I have spent my extra time in the service of God.

Suppose after my death, you are correct and there are no super worlds. In such case what I have lost? There is no loss for me. But after your death, suppose I am correct and there are super worlds. You have lost every thing and God will not save you. Thus, even on accepting your argument, based on the equal probability, it is better to serve the Lord by sacrificing the extra time and energy for the Lord after earning the basic needs. You must read the theory of probability, which is perfectly a scientific theory.

At 7/12/2013 5:00:23 AM, Passionate wrote:
Belief in the hereafter is not based on blind faith?
Picard
Posts: 54
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7/19/2013 5:06:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 7:08:20 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
Morality would have no meaning without a here-after Justice.

What is the benefit of labelling actions as Good and Evil if there is no reward and punishment?!

That is a very selfish and typical theist answer. You do not do good because you are a good person, you do good so that you may get the rewards. Other people do good because they are good people, they expect no reward, they wish to make the quality of other's lives better at their own expense.

We need more people to be selfless, and less to continue on the irrational belief of a deity and eternal damnation.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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7/19/2013 7:43:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/19/2013 5:06:13 AM, Picard wrote:
At 7/12/2013 7:08:20 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
Morality would have no meaning without a here-after Justice.

What is the benefit of labelling actions as Good and Evil if there is no reward and punishment?!

That is a very selfish and typical theist answer. You do not do good because you are a good person, you do good so that you may get the rewards. Other people do good because they are good people, they expect no reward, they wish to make the quality of other's lives better at their own expense.

We need more people to be selfless, and less to continue on the irrational belief of a deity and eternal damnation.

Whatever one expects from his good deeds he will get, he may do his good deeds anyways, if one expects people to call him good and kind, he will get that only, if he expects God to reward him, just because God promised that , then he will get that. if he do it for absolutely no purpose except that he believes what he dos is good, then so be it!
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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7/19/2013 7:57:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 7:08:20 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
Morality would have no meaning without a here-after Justice.

What is the benefit of labelling actions as Good and Evil if there is no reward and punishment?!

Morality is a guide to action. I don't see why it needs a punishment behind it to compel people to act a certain why. I don't believe in any form of eternal punishment, and I have never stolen anything or attacked anybody. Some people are capable of behaving properly because they understand some actions are wrong. Not everybody is a psycopath who is only cowed by fear of being tortured for eternity.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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7/19/2013 7:58:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/13/2013 7:11:35 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/13/2013 7:00:38 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 7/12/2013 7:08:20 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
Morality would have no meaning without a here-after Justice.

What is the benefit of labelling actions as Good and Evil if there is no reward and punishment?!

The benefit of humanity?

But this take us back to the start, What benefits humanity is nonsense if there is no afterlife, what is the point of benefiting humanity ?!

To make our life on Earth better, lol.
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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7/19/2013 2:18:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/19/2013 7:57:30 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/12/2013 7:08:20 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
Morality would have no meaning without a here-after Justice.

What is the benefit of labelling actions as Good and Evil if there is no reward and punishment?!

Morality is a guide to action. I don't see why it needs a punishment behind it to compel people to act a certain why. I don't believe in any form of eternal punishment, and I have never stolen anything or attacked anybody. Some people are capable of behaving properly because they understand some actions are wrong. Not everybody is a psycopath who is only cowed by fear of being tortured for eternity.

I wonder if psychopaths would be truly scared of eternal torture. Hmm.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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The_Fool_on_the_hill
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7/19/2013 3:15:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/13/2013 7:03:06 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 7/12/2013 5:02:19 AM, Passionate wrote:

Thus when 80% of the Qur"an is 100% correct and the remaining 20% is not disproved, logic says that even the 20% portion is correct. The existence of the hereafter, which is mentioned in the Qur"an, falls in the 20% ambiguous portion which my logic says is correct. (By Zakir Naik)

Logic definitely doesn't say that.

The Fool: it doesn't say anything really, its just symbols.
People say things.

...and sometimes monkeys
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
AnDoctuir
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7/19/2013 3:38:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I find myself directly opposed to the absurdist in my reckoning of an afterlife, neither more nor less logical, just hopeful.