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Any other "open" Christians on DDO?

rockwater
Posts: 273
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7/12/2013 12:26:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
As some of you know, I am a gay Catholic with pretty reformist ideas about sexual morality, gender roles, religious pluralism, eternal damnation, biblical interpretation, Church governance, etc. I see that most of the posters on the Religion forum are either skeptics or pretty religiously conservative. So, I was wondering who out there was Christian but have reformist views regarding some or all if the topics I have mentioned. Non-Christians who are religious or spiritual and open minded about the above issues can chime in as well.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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7/12/2013 12:59:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"gay Catholic with pretty reformist ideas about sexual morality, gender roles, religious pluralism, eternal damnation, biblical interpretation, Church governance, etc."
Yeah, I'm like a Catholic but without all the Catholics stuff. Right.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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7/12/2013 1:20:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm fairly "liberal" compared to the typical Christian (especially protestant) here. Though I've been called a a "fundie" by liberal christians. Some "liberal" positions of mine are pro-ssm, non-inerrantist, egalitarian, universalist, etc.
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rockwater
Posts: 273
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7/12/2013 1:45:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 12:59:40 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
"gay Catholic with pretty reformist ideas about sexual morality, gender roles, religious pluralism, eternal damnation, biblical interpretation, Church governance, etc."
Yeah, I'm like a Catholic but without all the Catholics stuff. Right.

I may very well have incurred a laete sententiae excommunication for attempting to contract a same sex marriage or by committing formal heresy, but does not make me no longer Catholic.
ExsurgeDomine
Posts: 176
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7/12/2013 1:54:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 12:26:15 PM, rockwater wrote:
As some of you know, I am a gay Catholic with pretty reformist ideas about sexual morality, gender roles, religious pluralism, eternal damnation, biblical interpretation, Church governance, etc. I see that most of the posters on the Religion forum are either skeptics or pretty religiously conservative. So, I was wondering who out there was Christian but have reformist views regarding some or all if the topics I have mentioned. Non-Christians who are religious or spiritual and open minded about the above issues can chime in as well.

Anathema, anathema.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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7/12/2013 2:12:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 12:59:40 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
"gay Catholic with pretty reformist ideas about sexual morality, gender roles, religious pluralism, eternal damnation, biblical interpretation, Church governance, etc."
Yeah, I'm like a Catholic but without all the "Catholic" stuff. Right.
Or how about this: "I'm virgin but that likes to have sex."
Or, "I'm for the death penalty so long as no one gets executed."
Or, https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net...
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
rockwater
Posts: 273
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7/12/2013 2:16:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 1:20:30 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
I'm fairly "liberal" compared to the typical Christian (especially protestant) here. Though I've been called a a "fundie" by liberal christians. Some "liberal" positions of mine are pro-ssm, non-inerrantist, egalitarian, universalist, etc.

Why would anyone call you a fundamentalist?
rockwater
Posts: 273
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7/12/2013 2:18:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 1:54:24 PM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 7/12/2013 12:26:15 PM, rockwater wrote:
As some of you know, I am a gay Catholic with pretty reformist ideas about sexual morality, gender roles, religious pluralism, eternal damnation, biblical interpretation, Church governance, etc. I see that most of the posters on the Religion forum are either skeptics or pretty religiously conservative. So, I was wondering who out there was Christian but have reformist views regarding some or all if the topics I have mentioned. Non-Christians who are religious or spiritual and open minded about the above issues can chime in as well.

Anathema, anathema.

I really like your sig quote, even though you may think I don't believe in it at all.
ExsurgeDomine
Posts: 176
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7/12/2013 2:27:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 2:18:19 PM, rockwater wrote:
At 7/12/2013 1:54:24 PM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 7/12/2013 12:26:15 PM, rockwater wrote:
As some of you know, I am a gay Catholic with pretty reformist ideas about sexual morality, gender roles, religious pluralism, eternal damnation, biblical interpretation, Church governance, etc. I see that most of the posters on the Religion forum are either skeptics or pretty religiously conservative. So, I was wondering who out there was Christian but have reformist views regarding some or all if the topics I have mentioned. Non-Christians who are religious or spiritual and open minded about the above issues can chime in as well.

Anathema, anathema.

I really like your sig quote, even though you may think I don't believe in it at all.

I have to ask why you would identify yourself as Catholic while rejecting Catholicism.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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7/12/2013 2:36:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"I have to ask why you would identify yourself as Catholic while rejecting Catholicism."

Maybe his b/f is Catholic, and they don't want to date or marry outside the Catholic Church.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
ExsurgeDomine
Posts: 176
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7/12/2013 2:43:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 2:36:35 PM, annanicole wrote:
"I have to ask why you would identify yourself as Catholic while rejecting Catholicism."

Maybe his b/f is Catholic, and they don't want to date or marry outside the Catholic Church.

I cannot see how anyone who would date/marry an open heretic in defiance of Ecclesiastical teachings on sexual morality might have a coherent reason for such particularity.
rockwater
Posts: 273
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7/12/2013 2:43:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 2:27:19 PM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 7/12/2013 2:18:19 PM, rockwater wrote:
At 7/12/2013 1:54:24 PM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 7/12/2013 12:26:15 PM, rockwater wrote:
As some of you know, I am a gay Catholic with pretty reformist ideas about sexual morality, gender roles, religious pluralism, eternal damnation, biblical interpretation, Church governance, etc. I see that most of the posters on the Religion forum are either skeptics or pretty religiously conservative. So, I was wondering who out there was Christian but have reformist views regarding some or all if the topics I have mentioned. Non-Christians who are religious or spiritual and open minded about the above issues can chime in as well.

Anathema, anathema.

I really like your sig quote, even though you may think I don't believe in it at all.

I have to ask why you would identify yourself as Catholic while rejecting Catholicism.

Well, I was baptized Catholic as a baby (and went through RCIA, received first communion, and was confirmed as an adult), I have not joined another denomination or religion, and I go to Mass every Sunday and am active in my parish ministry, and go to confession and tell my confessor pretty much everything, and my pastor knows pretty much all about me too. And they approve. The were actually the ones who convinces me to start receiving communion when I felt I should not. But none of this should come as any surprise to you.

I'm one cafeteria Catholic among many - I just admit it.

And there was a whole other thread about why I haven't joined another denomination. Suffice to say I believe that the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church subsists in the Roman Catholic Church. That does not mean that non-Catholics or even non-Christians are not members of the Church.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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7/12/2013 3:41:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 2:16:52 PM, rockwater wrote:
At 7/12/2013 1:20:30 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
I'm fairly "liberal" compared to the typical Christian (especially protestant) here. Though I've been called a a "fundie" by liberal christians. Some "liberal" positions of mine are pro-ssm, non-inerrantist, egalitarian, universalist, etc.

Why would anyone call you a fundamentalist?

Because I accept many that God has a definite character (like his triunal nature) and is not just some vague "feel good" force. I don't think the bible is useless and take it very seriously. I don't accept that every religion is equally true or that you shouldn't prolyseltize because every one has "their own personal truth", accept the possibility of miracles, etc.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
THE_OPINIONATOR
Posts: 575
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7/12/2013 4:02:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 12:26:15 PM, rockwater wrote:
As some of you know, I am a gay Catholic with pretty reformist ideas about sexual morality, gender roles, religious pluralism, eternal damnation, biblical interpretation, Church governance, etc. I see that most of the posters on the Religion forum are either skeptics or pretty religiously conservative. So, I was wondering who out there was Christian but have reformist views regarding some or all if the topics I have mentioned. Non-Christians who are religious or spiritual and open minded about the above issues can chime in as well.

You are living a life in sin, your life style is wrong in the eyes of God. God still loves you but hates the sinful life style that you are living.
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Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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7/12/2013 4:04:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 2:27:19 PM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 7/12/2013 2:18:19 PM, rockwater wrote:
At 7/12/2013 1:54:24 PM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 7/12/2013 12:26:15 PM, rockwater wrote:
As some of you know, I am a gay Catholic with pretty reformist ideas about sexual morality, gender roles, religious pluralism, eternal damnation, biblical interpretation, Church governance, etc. I see that most of the posters on the Religion forum are either skeptics or pretty religiously conservative. So, I was wondering who out there was Christian but have reformist views regarding some or all if the topics I have mentioned. Non-Christians who are religious or spiritual and open minded about the above issues can chime in as well.

Anathema, anathema.

I really like your sig quote, even though you may think I don't believe in it at all.

I have to ask why you would identify yourself as Catholic while rejecting Catholicism.

This is like accusing someone of not being Jewish because although they go to synagogue every day and read the Torah and believe every word of it, they don't eat kosher.

At least not eating kosher is a choice.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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7/12/2013 4:07:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 12:59:40 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
"gay Catholic with pretty reformist ideas about sexual morality, gender roles, religious pluralism, eternal damnation, biblical interpretation, Church governance, etc."
Yeah, I'm like a Catholic but without all the Catholics stuff. Right.

So what? He's a Protestant now?

The Catholic Church can't even agree with itself on whether limbo exists, so hearing that someone has views slightly different than the traditional church really isn't that surprising.
rockwater
Posts: 273
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7/12/2013 4:18:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 2:36:35 PM, annanicole wrote:
"I have to ask why you would identify yourself as Catholic while rejecting Catholicism."

Maybe his b/f is Catholic, and they don't want to date or marry outside the Catholic Church.

Actually my husband is not Catholic (but he is Christian), and he hates that I attend, believe in and give money to an organization that calls our marriage nonexistent and our relationship immoral (and that uses part of the money I offer it to lobby against gay marriage). And yet here I am, still Catholic.

This discussion is not about my status as a Catholic - it is asking if there are other open/reformist Christians here on DDO. Looks like we only have one other one who has posted here so far.
rockwater
Posts: 273
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7/12/2013 4:29:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 3:41:01 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/12/2013 2:16:52 PM, rockwater wrote:
At 7/12/2013 1:20:30 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
I'm fairly "liberal" compared to the typical Christian (especially protestant) here. Though I've been called a a "fundie" by liberal christians. Some "liberal" positions of mine are pro-ssm, non-inerrantist, egalitarian, universalist, etc.

Why would anyone call you a fundamentalist?

Because I accept many that God has a definite character (like his triunal nature) and is not just some vague "feel good" force. I don't think the bible is useless and take it very seriously. I don't accept that every religion is equally true or that you shouldn't prolyseltize because every one has "their own personal truth", accept the possibility of miracles, etc.

That's not fundamentalist at all. Sounds pretty mainstream Christian.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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7/12/2013 4:51:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 4:07:15 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 7/12/2013 12:59:40 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
"gay Catholic with pretty reformist ideas about sexual morality, gender roles, religious pluralism, eternal damnation, biblical interpretation, Church governance, etc."
Yeah, I'm like a Catholic but without all the Catholics stuff. Right.

So what? He's a Protestant now?

The Catholic Church can't even agree with itself on whether limbo exists, so hearing that someone has views slightly different than the traditional church really isn't that surprising.
I suppose we must have "slightly different" conceptions as to what "slightly different" means. I personally would have chosen "wildly different" but hey, what do I know?

At 7/12/2013 2:43:39 PM, rockwater wrote:
I'm one cafeteria Catholic among many - I just admit it.
I dunno what cafeteria you're at, but I can tell you for sure, it ain't Catholic.

Good examples of "Cafeteria Catholic"...
I don't go to confession as much as I should; I don't go to mass as much as I should; I use contraception although I know that I shouldn't; I engage in premarital sex although I know I shouldn't; I cuss although I know I shouldn't; I am gay and carry on a gay lifestyle although I know that I shouldn't.

Good examples of someone kidding themselves that they are "Catholic"...
I am a gay and I think that the Catholic Church should change its stance on gays; I have ideas on sexual morality, gender roles, religious pluralism, eternal damnation, biblical interpretation, Church governance, etc. that run anathema to Catholicism and I think they should adopt these ideas.

"I love Catholicism, so I want to fundamentally transform it." That's as much love as murder is to good health.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
ExsurgeDomine
Posts: 176
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7/12/2013 5:26:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 2:43:39 PM, rockwater wrote:
At 7/12/2013 2:27:19 PM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 7/12/2013 2:18:19 PM, rockwater wrote:
At 7/12/2013 1:54:24 PM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 7/12/2013 12:26:15 PM, rockwater wrote:
As some of you know, I am a gay Catholic with pretty reformist ideas about sexual morality, gender roles, religious pluralism, eternal damnation, biblical interpretation, Church governance, etc. I see that most of the posters on the Religion forum are either skeptics or pretty religiously conservative. So, I was wondering who out there was Christian but have reformist views regarding some or all if the topics I have mentioned. Non-Christians who are religious or spiritual and open minded about the above issues can chime in as well.

Anathema, anathema.

I really like your sig quote, even though you may think I don't believe in it at all.

I have to ask why you would identify yourself as Catholic while rejecting Catholicism.

Well, I was baptized Catholic as a baby (and went through RCIA, received first communion, and was confirmed as an adult), I have not joined another denomination or religion, and I go to Mass every Sunday and am active in my parish ministry, and go to confession and tell my confessor pretty much everything, and my pastor knows pretty much all about me too. And they approve. The were actually the ones who convinces me to start receiving communion when I felt I should not. But none of this should come as any surprise to you.

It has come as a very unpleasant surprise, unfortunately.

I have taken this so far: you are Catholic, you have not attempted to leave the Church, you attend Mass. However personally, I don't see why that would cause you to identify as a Catholic I could conduct my entire life as a Democratic Socialist, but secretly feel that strict non-aggression is the only moral way to live. If I did so, it would be bizarre and misleading to continue to identify as a Democratic Socialist.

I'm one cafeteria Catholic among many - I just admit it.

A 'cafeteria' Catholic is no Catholic at all.

And there was a whole other thread about why I haven't joined another denomination. Suffice to say I believe that the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church subsists in the Roman Catholic Church. That does not mean that non-Catholics or even non-Christians are not members of the Church.

I'm not sure how carefully you've chosen your words, but the usage of 'subsists' would seem to imply that the presence is minimal, which isn't exactly a vote of confidence. Taken in conjunction with your supposed heresy, that makes my question all the more pertinent: why would you identify as Catholic?

Certainly you are Catholic, and I find no grounds on which to deny that much, but why would you identify as such while persistently holding views at odds with Catholicism? If the Church is right, you imperil yourself gravely by such deviation, and if the Church is wrong it would seem to avail you nothing to remain within her.
ExsurgeDomine
Posts: 176
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7/12/2013 5:27:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 4:04:19 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 7/12/2013 2:27:19 PM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 7/12/2013 2:18:19 PM, rockwater wrote:
At 7/12/2013 1:54:24 PM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 7/12/2013 12:26:15 PM, rockwater wrote:
As some of you know, I am a gay Catholic with pretty reformist ideas about sexual morality, gender roles, religious pluralism, eternal damnation, biblical interpretation, Church governance, etc. I see that most of the posters on the Religion forum are either skeptics or pretty religiously conservative. So, I was wondering who out there was Christian but have reformist views regarding some or all if the topics I have mentioned. Non-Christians who are religious or spiritual and open minded about the above issues can chime in as well.

Anathema, anathema.

I really like your sig quote, even though you may think I don't believe in it at all.

I have to ask why you would identify yourself as Catholic while rejecting Catholicism.

This is like accusing someone of not being Jewish because although they go to synagogue every day and read the Torah and believe every word of it, they don't eat kosher.

No it's not, not least because I'm not making any such accusation. rockwater is Catholic much as I may wish otherwise, and that much cannot be reasonably denied.

Still, you couldn't believe every word of the Torah if you then turned around and disobeyed those very words by your actions now, could you? As the Bishop wrote: 'So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.'.

As the old saying goes, going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than sitting in a garage makes you a car.

rockwater wrote above: 'I may very well have incurred a laete sententiae excommunication for attempting to contract a same sex marriage or by committing formal heresy, but does not make me no longer Catholic.'

If you're knowingly committing formal heresy, or at least something that apparently could be viewed as formal heresy, my question as to why you would continue to identify with the belief system that you would seem to be apostatizing from stands.

At least not eating kosher is a choice.
rockwater
Posts: 273
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7/12/2013 5:27:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 4:51:00 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 7/12/2013 4:07:15 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 7/12/2013 12:59:40 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
"gay Catholic with pretty reformist ideas about sexual morality, gender roles, religious pluralism, eternal damnation, biblical interpretation, Church governance, etc."
Yeah, I'm like a Catholic but without all the Catholics stuff. Right.

So what? He's a Protestant now?

The Catholic Church can't even agree with itself on whether limbo exists, so hearing that someone has views slightly different than the traditional church really isn't that surprising.
I suppose we must have "slightly different" conceptions as to what "slightly different" means. I personally would have chosen "wildly different" but hey, what do I know?


At 7/12/2013 2:43:39 PM, rockwater wrote:
I'm one cafeteria Catholic among many - I just admit it.
I dunno what cafeteria you're at, but I can tell you for sure, it ain't Catholic.

Good examples of "Cafeteria Catholic"...
I don't go to confession as much as I should; I don't go to mass as much as I should; I use contraception although I know that I shouldn't; I engage in premarital sex although I know I shouldn't; I cuss although I know I shouldn't; I am gay and carry on a gay lifestyle although I know that I shouldn't.

Good examples of someone kidding themselves that they are "Catholic"...
I am a gay and I think that the Catholic Church should change its stance on gays; I have ideas on sexual morality, gender roles, religious pluralism, eternal damnation, biblical interpretation, Church governance, etc. that run anathema to Catholicism and I think they should adopt these ideas.

"I love Catholicism, so I want to fundamentally transform it." That's as much love as murder is to good health.

A cafeteria Catholic usually means a Catholic that picks and chooses what to believe from what is taught to them. A Catholic who doesn't follow the Church's teaching but believes all of if anyway - well that would describe most Catholics who aren't cafeteria Catholics. And most Catholics, at least in the developed world, are cafeteria Catholics, so the pews are full if heretics like me. And a lot of cafeteria Catholics will admit their dissent if you ask them, if they are not already voicing it like I am.
THE_OPINIONATOR
Posts: 575
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7/13/2013 9:19:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 4:18:28 PM, rockwater wrote:
At 7/12/2013 2:36:35 PM, annanicole wrote:
"I have to ask why you would identify yourself as Catholic while rejecting Catholicism."

Maybe his b/f is Catholic, and they don't want to date or marry outside the Catholic Church.

Actually my husband is not Catholic (but he is Christian), and he hates that I attend, believe in and give money to an organization that calls our marriage nonexistent and our relationship immoral (and that uses part of the money I offer it to lobby against gay marriage). And yet here I am, still Catholic.

This discussion is not about my status as a Catholic - it is asking if there are other open/reformist Christians here on DDO. Looks like we only have one other one who has posted here so far.

All of Christianity considers your relationship to be immoral.
My Blog: Life Through The Eyes of a Christian

http://bloggingforjchrist.blogspot.com...

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rockwater
Posts: 273
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7/14/2013 5:35:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 3:41:01 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/12/2013 2:16:52 PM, rockwater wrote:
At 7/12/2013 1:20:30 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
I'm fairly "liberal" compared to the typical Christian (especially protestant) here. Though I've been called a a "fundie" by liberal christians. Some "liberal" positions of mine are pro-ssm, non-inerrantist, egalitarian, universalist, etc.

Why would anyone call you a fundamentalist?

Because I accept many that God has a definite character (like his triunal nature) and is not just some vague "feel good" force. I don't think the bible is useless and take it very seriously. I don't accept that every religion is equally true or that you shouldn't prolyseltize because every one has "their own personal truth", accept the possibility of miracles, etc.

Btw, I agree with most of these things. I think that there is a lot of truth to be found in secular and religious philosophies outside of Christianity, but I must think that Christianity has a fuller version of the truth concerning God, the afterlife, etc., or else I wouldn't be a Christian! Everything can't be true at once, as you said. As for proselytism, I prefer the term evangelism, and I think that preaching by example (ie, the life you lead) is much more effective than preaching with words, especially to non-Christians. I don't plan my actions around non-Christians so as to look inspiring to them. I just try to live the Gospel out in all I do . Of course, I often fail.
sweetbreeze
Posts: 88
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7/14/2013 8:16:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 12:26:15 PM, rockwater wrote:
As some of you know, I am a gay Catholic with pretty reformist ideas about sexual morality, gender roles, religious pluralism, eternal damnation, biblical interpretation, Church governance, etc. I see that most of the posters on the Religion forum are either skeptics or pretty religiously conservative. So, I was wondering who out there was Christian but have reformist views regarding some or all if the topics I have mentioned. Non-Christians who are religious or spiritual and open minded about the above issues can chime in as well.

Er, me? I'm looking for Christian friends, but others are OK, as long as they're not too old for me. I'm looking for people at about 14-20 y/o, but it's OK if they're a little older than 20.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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7/15/2013 9:01:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 5:27:30 PM, rockwater wrote:
A cafeteria Catholic usually means a Catholic that picks and chooses what to believe from what is taught to them.
No. A "Cafeteria Catholic" picks and choose what to follow knowing full well that they are going against the Church in doing so. Sure there may be a thing or they might not believe in, but overall they know they're doing things that they are not supposed to. The key thing about CC, is that they're not actively trying to change the Catholic Church to fit their choices, they're just living their lives.

A Catholic who doesn't follow the Church's teaching but believes all of if anyway - well that would describe most Catholics who aren't cafeteria Catholics.
Not at all. I'd say most Catholics are either CC or tried-n-true Catholics; the small portion that's left are basically CINOs (Catholic In Name Only) and aren't really Catholic. A "Catholic who doesn't follow the Church's teaching but believes all of if anyway" is someone who's kidding themselves. They are either kidding themselves about being Catholic OR kidding themselves about believing in the teachings.

And most Catholics, at least in the developed world, are cafeteria Catholics, so the pews are full if heretics like me.
I agree that many if not most Catholics are CC, but you certainly are not one of them. You're in the "kidding yourself" department, and IMHO it's that you don't really believe in the teachings of the Church.

And a lot of cafeteria Catholics will admit their dissent if you ask them, if they are not already voicing it like I am.
Admitting dissent is commonplace for a CC, but there's a chasm the size if Grand Canyon between that and wanting to fundamentally transform Catholicism. A CC doesn't desire to fundamentally transform Catholicism.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
rockwater
Posts: 273
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7/15/2013 10:06:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/15/2013 9:01:00 AM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 7/12/2013 5:27:30 PM, rockwater wrote:
A cafeteria Catholic usually means a Catholic that picks and chooses what to believe from what is taught to them.
No. A "Cafeteria Catholic" picks and choose what to follow knowing full well that they are going against the Church in doing so. Sure there may be a thing or they might not believe in, but overall they know they're doing things that they are not supposed to. The key thing about CC, is that they're not actively trying to change the Catholic Church to fit their choices, they're just living their lives.

A Catholic who doesn't follow the Church's teaching but believes all of if anyway - well that would describe most Catholics who aren't cafeteria Catholics.
Not at all. I'd say most Catholics are either CC or tried-n-true Catholics; the small portion that's left are basically CINOs (Catholic In Name Only) and aren't really Catholic. A "Catholic who doesn't follow the Church's teaching but believes all of if anyway" is someone who's kidding themselves. They are either kidding themselves about being Catholic OR kidding themselves about believing in the teachings.

And most Catholics, at least in the developed world, are cafeteria Catholics, so the pews are full if heretics like me.
I agree that many if not most Catholics are CC, but you certainly are not one of them. You're in the "kidding yourself" department, and IMHO it's that you don't really believe in the teachings of the Church.

And a lot of cafeteria Catholics will admit their dissent if you ask them, if they are not already voicing it like I am.
Admitting dissent is commonplace for a CC, but there's a chasm the size if Grand Canyon between that and wanting to fundamentally transform Catholicism. A CC doesn't desire to fundamentally transform Catholicism.

Since your definition of Cafeteria Catholicism encompasses a certain amount of material and possibly even formal heresy, it seems to me that it all boils down, to you to an issue of loyalty and deference to authority (although that deference is not as great as that shown by what you call "tried and true" Catholics). It seems like a fuzzy line to me. What specific forms of dissent cross the line from Cafeteria Catholicism to wanting to remake the Church? Is it women's ordination? Gay marriage? Hope that God finds ways to save even those who seem at the time of their death to have no belief or repentance whatsoever to keep them from Hell? Discomfort that infallibility through Ordinary and Universal Magisterium (as with Women's Ordinationand the nullity of Anglican Orders) is now interpreted to rest on (non ex cathedra) Papal recognition? Concern that an Ecumenical Council's status as ecumenical (and therefore infallible in its defintions if doctrine) rests on Papal recognition after the fact? Concern that the Pope may not always know when he is speaking ex cathedra ad when he is not? What individual one or combination of these dissenting beliefs takes one from being a Cafeteria Catholc to wanting to remake the Church?

Also, I have said from the beginning that I dissent with the Church's leadership on several points if doctrine. I never claimed that I fell in the category of people who believe all of Church teaching but do not follow it.
tBoonePickens
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7/15/2013 11:46:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/15/2013 10:06:10 AM, rockwater wrote:
At 7/15/2013 9:01:00 AM, tBoonePickens wrote:
Admitting dissent is commonplace for a CC, but there's a chasm the size if Grand Canyon between that and wanting to fundamentally transform Catholicism. A CC doesn't desire to fundamentally transform Catholicism.
Since your definition of Cafeteria Catholicism encompasses a certain amount of material and possibly even formal heresy, it seems to me that it all boils down, to you to an issue of loyalty and deference to authority (although that deference is not as great as that shown by what you call "tried and true" Catholics).
Wanting to fundamentally transform Catholicism is WAY PAST loyalty.

It seems like a fuzzy line to me.
I know, that's the problem. This tends to be an issue with liberals; although I am willing to bet that you probably don't "call" yourself one. Liberalism is constantly trying to redefine things to fit their ideology. The end result is always a more ambiguous term than before, a "fuzzier" term. However, the Liberal is never done and is constantly "revisiting" previously redefined terms to attempt further ambiguation to the term.

What specific forms of dissent cross the line from Cafeteria Catholicism to wanting to remake the Church? Is it women's ordination? Gay marriage?
I think it was rather clearly delineated.

Hope that God finds ways to save even those who seem at the time of their death to have no belief or repentance whatsoever to keep them from Hell?
What halfway-good Christian doesn't?

Discomfort that infallibility through Ordinary and Universal Magisterium (as with Women's Ordination and the nullity of Anglican Orders) is now interpreted to rest on (non ex cathedra) Papal recognition? Concern that an Ecumenical Council's status as ecumenical (and therefore infallible in its defintions if doctrine) rests on Papal recognition after the fact? Concern that the Pope may not always know when he is speaking ex cathedra ad when he is not? What individual one or combination of these dissenting beliefs takes one from being a Cafeteria Catholc to wanting to remake the Church?
I think it's rather obvious: ask your average Catholic if he wants to remake the Church and you will hear a resounding "NO".

Also, I have said from the beginning that I dissent with the Church's leadership on several points if doctrine. I never claimed that I fell in the category of people who believe all of Church teaching but do not follow it.
Yes, you've voiced many of your dissents quite clearly. You see, unlike you, things aren't that fuzzy for me because I don't go around trying to redefine things in that manner.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.