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God of the Old Testament.

Xer
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12/8/2009 3:08:35 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I shall be citing various Bible verses of the Old Testament, and God will tell you how he stands on the following issues: rape, slavery, torture, and child abuse.

I'd be more than happy to hear everyone elses favorite Bible quotes. I'm sure we can fill another category, like murder and others. Miscellaneous quotes are also welcomed.

I will be using the New International Version (NIV) for my Bible verses. NIV is the most widely used English translation of the Bible. 'Tis a bit liberal compared to more literal versions.

==========
RAPE
==========


***Zechariah 14:1-2***
1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.
2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.

***2 Samuel 12:11***
11 "This is what the LORD says: 'Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight.

***Deuteronomy 22:28-29***
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

==========
SLAVERY
==========


***Leviticus 25:44-46***
44 " 'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

***1 Peter 2:18***
18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

***Exodus 21:20-21***
20 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

==========
TORTURE
==========


***Revelation 9:4-6***
4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

==========
CHILD ABUSE
==========


***Genesis 22:2-10***
2 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."
3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. 5 He said to his servants, "Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you."
6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, 7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, "Father?"
"Yes, my son?" Abraham replied.
"The fire and wood are here," Isaac said, "but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?"
8 Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." And the two of them went on together.
9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.

***Exodus 12:29***
29 At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well.

***2 Kings 2:23-24***
23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

***Psalm 137:8-9***
8 O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is he who repays you
for what you have done to us-
9 he who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.

***Jeremiah 19:9***
9 I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another's flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them by the enemies who seek their lives.'
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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12/8/2009 3:25:49 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Yahweh's Fecal Fetish

"And thou shalt it as barley cakes, and thou shall bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. And the Lord said, even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread." - Ezekiel 4:12,13

"Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts." - Malachi 2:2,3
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
leet4A1
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12/8/2009 3:33:07 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
LOL! I hadn't heard of the "fecal fetish" verses, they are gold!

Good one boys... I would love to see a Christian defend some of these verses as the word of a just god.
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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12/9/2009 4:03:34 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 12/8/2009 3:08:35 PM, Nags wrote:
I shall be citing various Bible verses of the Old Testament, and God will tell you how he stands on the following issues: rape, slavery, torture, and child abuse.
Why this "of the Old Testament"?

==========
RAPE
==========


***Zechariah 14:1-2***
1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.
2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.
Obviously, the people of the city is meant to be punished. In this case, rape is punishment.

***2 Samuel 12:11***
11 "This is what the LORD says: 'Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight.
Doesn't imply rape at all. Just betrayal.

***Deuteronomy 22:28-29***
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
Specifically mentiones that rape violates the girl.

==========
SLAVERY
==========


***Leviticus 25:44-46***
44 " 'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Buy, not capture. This actually appears to be voluntary slavery as a commercial exchange.
***1 Peter 2:18***
18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
What's the problem here, exactly?
***Exodus 21:20-21***
20 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
The slave is his property. Done.
==========
TORTURE
==========


***Revelation 9:4-6***
4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.
So? Torture is being used a punishment.
==========
CHILD ABUSE
==========


***Genesis 22:2-10***
2 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."
3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. 5 He said to his servants, "Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you."
6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, 7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, "Father?"
"Yes, my son?" Abraham replied.
"The fire and wood are here," Isaac said, "but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?"
8 Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." And the two of them went on together.
9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.
"11 But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied.

12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son." "
***Exodus 12:29***
29 At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well.

***2 Kings 2:23-24***
23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.
Punishment for jeering. Don't insult your elders.
***Psalm 137:8-9***
8 O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is he who repays you
for what you have done to us-
9 he who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.
This actually has absolutely no sensible context whatsoever. Some song or something?
***Jeremiah 19:9***
9 I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another's flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them by the enemies who seek their lives.'
Harsh punishment for some random sin.
Rakkyosai
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12/11/2009 3:00:34 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Just to put you right, the books you mention of Peter and Revelations are not Tanakh (Old Testament).
The man who learns only what others know
is as ignorant as if he learns nothing

The treasures of knowledge are the most rare,
and guarded the most harshly.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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12/11/2009 5:14:08 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 12/9/2009 4:03:34 PM, mongeese wrote:
Why this "of the Old Testament"?

Most of the verses are from the O.T.

Obviously, the people of the city is meant to be punished. In this case, rape is punishment.

Rape is an acceptable form of punishment?

Doesn't imply rape at all. Just betrayal.

"Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight."

"Lie" means "have sex".

Specifically mentiones that rape violates the girl.

The girl is then forced to marry the person that raped her.

Buy, not capture. This actually appears to be voluntary slavery as a commercial exchange.

Uhh, no. Slavery isn't voluntary in the first place. Secondly, why do the slaves need to be captured - being bought from their previous owners is just the same.

"You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life"

That can no way be voluntary.

What's the problem here, exactly?

You must respect your slaveowners - whether they are harsh or not. You don't see the problem with that? Slavery is acceptable?

The slave is his property. Done.

Slavery is acceptable?

So? Torture is being used a punishment.

Torture for multiple months is a reasonable punishment for harming the Earth?

"11 But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied.
12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son." "

13 "Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son."

Your God, who has everything, wanted a burnt ram (his creation) as a sacrifice. Lol.

Punishment for jeering. Don't insult your elders.

This doesn't refute the Exodus verse at all.

Your God killed 42 children for making fun, is this reasonable?

This actually has absolutely no sensible context whatsoever. Some song or something?

It's God saying he's happy that babies are being thrown against rocks.

Harsh punishment for some random sin.

O rly?
___

I can safely say that me, you, and almost every person on Earth is more moral than God if you believe the above is acceptable. It's sick actually. Your rebuttals were atrocious btw.
mongeese
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12/11/2009 6:37:17 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 12/11/2009 5:14:08 PM, Nags wrote:
At 12/9/2009 4:03:34 PM, mongeese wrote:
Why this "of the Old Testament"?

Most of the verses are from the O.T.

But God "of the Old Testament" seems rather pointless. You guys are quoting NT verses anyway.
Obviously, the people of the city is meant to be punished. In this case, rape is punishment.

Rape is an acceptable form of punishment?

Why not?
Doesn't imply rape at all. Just betrayal.

"Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight."

"Lie" means "have sex".

But it does not talk about consent at all.
Specifically mentiones that rape violates the girl.

The girl is then forced to marry the person that raped her.

Women were always forced to marry people, because marriage had a different purpose then than now.
Buy, not capture. This actually appears to be voluntary slavery as a commercial exchange.

Uhh, no. Slavery isn't voluntary in the first place. Secondly, why do the slaves need to be captured - being bought from their previous owners is just the same.

Talk to Cody_Franklin about voluntary selling yourself into slavery.
"You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life"

That can no way be voluntary.

Slaves that are already estabslished as property are treated as property, and suddenly everything is more definite? What?
What's the problem here, exactly?

You must respect your slaveowners - whether they are harsh or not. You don't see the problem with that? Slavery is acceptable?

Talk to Cody_Franklin. He can probably explain more properly than I can.
The slave is his property. Done.

Slavery is acceptable?

Slavery from war is a better alternative to death, and selling oneself into slavery is perfectly voluntary.
So? Torture is being used a punishment.

Torture for multiple months is a reasonable punishment for harming the Earth?

Why not?
"11 But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied.
12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son." "

13 "Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son."

Your God, who has everything, wanted a burnt ram (his creation) as a sacrifice. Lol.

The entire thing was a test of faith. God wanted to test his faith, and required a sacrifice, determined that he was willing to sacrifice his son when required, and lessened the requirement.
Punishment for jeering. Don't insult your elders.

This doesn't refute the Exodus verse at all.
The kids jeered at an old man, and the old man cursed them for it.

Your God killed 42 children for making fun, is this reasonable?

Not God, the old man.
This actually has absolutely no sensible context whatsoever. Some song or something?

It's God saying he's happy that babies are being thrown against rocks.

No, it isn't. Did you read the rest of the verse?
Harsh punishment for some random sin.

O rly?
O yes.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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12/11/2009 7:16:38 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 12/11/2009 6:37:17 PM, mongeese wrote:
But God "of the Old Testament" seems rather pointless. You guys are quoting NT verses anyway.

God was uber-evil in the OT, and somehow got nice in the NT. That's why.

Why not?

Noted. God thinks rape is an acceptable form of punishment.

But it does not talk about consent at all.

Context much? Either way, it doesn't much matter if the verse is literally rape. All we can tell is that God is taking wives from their husbands and allowing men to have sex with them - of course in humiliation.

Women were always forced to marry people, because marriage had a different purpose then than now.

God's morals changed since then? God changed his mind? His morals rely on special circumstances?

Talk to Cody_Franklin about voluntary selling yourself into slavery.

Nice rebuttal.

Slaves that are already estabslished as property are treated as property, and suddenly everything is more definite? What?

Huh? God thinks slavery is acceptable.

Talk to Cody_Franklin. He can probably explain more properly than I can.

Cody_Franklin isn't God. Or is he...

Slavery from war is a better alternative to death, and selling oneself into slavery is perfectly voluntary.

God doesn't believe in forgiveness or just war anymore? Yeah, slavery is better.

Why not?

Noted. Torture for multiple months for littering is acceptable to God.

The entire thing was a test of faith. God wanted to test his faith, and required a sacrifice, determined that he was willing to sacrifice his son when required, and lessened the requirement.

Still doesn't refute that God accepts and wants animal sacrifice, even though he created it - Pagan.

The kids jeered at an old man, and the old man cursed them for it.

And God responded by killing 42 children with bears.

Not God, the old man.

God sent the bears.

No, it isn't. Did you read the rest of the verse?

Yes.

O yes.

K.

___

You have conceded that rape, slavery, torture, and child abuse are acceptable. Great morals.
Xer
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1/5/2010 7:39:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/5/2010 2:54:03 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
Very funny, but most are bias, except rape. Lol

How can Bible verses be biased?
tkubok
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1/6/2010 5:54:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/5/2010 7:39:40 PM, Nags wrote:
At 1/5/2010 2:54:03 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
Very funny, but most are bias, except rape. Lol

How can Bible verses be biased?

Because the people who wrote the bible lived in a time where things like raping a town you conquered was Moral. This, of coures, means that the bibile was not written by God or people who were taking dictation from God or angels, but oh wells.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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1/6/2010 7:16:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
This is what I love about Christianity, it is, especially in it's modern form purely about what the 'adherant' wants it to be. The passages they dislike simply do not exist, the ones they like are the LAW. Yet they somehow expect us to convert, why don't they convert to the religion they claim to be members of!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
GodSands
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1/14/2010 5:25:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
God was strict in the OT as He was so that God could give away His Son (Himself) in the NT.

If the human race was heading for hell as soon as Adam ate the fruit, a loving God would not allow His people to wonder so fast if not at all. Jesus Christ is the gift which overpowers all evil that has every happened and ever will happen. You can understand why God was strict in the OT, you can understand why God send Himself as a human to die, forgoodness sake, you can understand and see why men have nipples scientifically but no one will ever know the meaning behind the cost and price which Christ, God's only Son died on the cross. This, if one thing, would be the thing that no man will ever know like it or not!
Puck
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1/14/2010 5:28:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/14/2010 5:25:31 PM, GodSands wrote:
but no one will ever know the meaning behind the cost and price which Christ, God's only Son died on the cross.

Nothing. See resurrection.
GodSands
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1/14/2010 5:49:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 1/14/2010 5:28:15 PM, Puck wrote:
At 1/14/2010 5:25:31 PM, GodSands wrote:
but no one will ever know the meaning behind the cost and price which Christ, God's only Son died on the cross.

Nothing. See resurrection.


Sorry? The resurrection shows that Jesus is God by rising from the dead, that death is not the end (most people then believed there was life after death, just in a different form) the resurrection also shows that whoever believes in Christ will be set free from sin (in that they will be be slaves to sin) and they will have eternal life. It also shows the trasformation of the dead spirit within everyhuman to a living spirit in Christ, as if Christ is walking ahead of you and you are following him, this is show throughout your life through moral choices and the transformation of your inner self, your spirit.

However the price and the reason for why God willingly wanted to do this, kill Christ, is totally beyond our understanding likewise with demons understanding. To begin with when our individual lives are worthless to someone we do not know, you next meal will be worth more to you that a life in Africa, we to God are worth less than a dying mite to us. In relation, you could not imagine a comparson for your sin and Christ, you could not give me an analogy, just like you cannot for the existence of God and evolution.
tkubok
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1/15/2010 8:35:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/14/2010 5:49:25 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 1/14/2010 5:28:15 PM, Puck wrote:
At 1/14/2010 5:25:31 PM, GodSands wrote:
but no one will ever know the meaning behind the cost and price which Christ, God's only Son died on the cross.

Nothing. See resurrection.


Sorry? The resurrection shows that Jesus is God by rising from the dead, that death is not the end (most people then believed there was life after death, just in a different form) the resurrection also shows that whoever believes in Christ will be set free from sin (in that they will be be slaves to sin) and they will have eternal life. It also shows the trasformation of the dead spirit within everyhuman to a living spirit in Christ, as if Christ is walking ahead of you and you are following him, this is show throughout your life through moral choices and the transformation of your inner self, your spirit.

However the price and the reason for why God willingly wanted to do this, kill Christ, is totally beyond our understanding likewise with demons understanding. To begin with when our individual lives are worthless to someone we do not know, you next meal will be worth more to you that a life in Africa, we to God are worth less than a dying mite to us. In relation, you could not imagine a comparson for your sin and Christ, you could not give me an analogy, just like you cannot for the existence of God and evolution.

Sorry? How does this change the fact that Jesus didnt sacrifice anything for our sins? How does this change the fact that the sacrifice does not exist? If God is the creator of all things, what is a physical body to him? Couldnt he just make another one?
GodSands
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1/15/2010 9:47:08 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 1/15/2010 8:35:16 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 1/14/2010 5:49:25 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 1/14/2010 5:28:15 PM, Puck wrote:
At 1/14/2010 5:25:31 PM, GodSands wrote:
but no one will ever know the meaning behind the cost and price which Christ, God's only Son died on the cross.

Nothing. See resurrection.


Sorry? The resurrection shows that Jesus is God by rising from the dead, that death is not the end (most people then believed there was life after death, just in a different form) the resurrection also shows that whoever believes in Christ will be set free from sin (in that they will be be slaves to sin) and they will have eternal life. It also shows the trasformation of the dead spirit within everyhuman to a living spirit in Christ, as if Christ is walking ahead of you and you are following him, this is show throughout your life through moral choices and the transformation of your inner self, your spirit.

However the price and the reason for why God willingly wanted to do this, kill Christ, is totally beyond our understanding likewise with demons understanding. To begin with when our individual lives are worthless to someone we do not know, you next meal will be worth more to you that a life in Africa, we to God are worth less than a dying mite to us. In relation, you could not imagine a comparson for your sin and Christ, you could not give me an analogy, just like you cannot for the existence of God and evolution.

Sorry? How does this change the fact that Jesus didnt sacrifice anything for our sins? How does this change the fact that the sacrifice does not exist? If God is the creator of all things, what is a physical body to him? Couldnt he just make another one?


No, God had one Son only, God could not have sent a perfect angel to die for our sins because the angels was created by God dispite the angels perfection in absoluate everything, Jesus is God, the Son of God reflects the humans understanding that God is our spiritual Father. God is now in form of Christ, a human like us for eternaty, even though God is the master of the universe. Our sin was and is a heavy, heavy price, no amount of money can settle.

God is perfect, that it's self is beyond us, we can only describle perfection as abstract blurs or personal accounts, even the nicest and kindest of men are desting for hell because like Hitler they are equally far from God because they are in a unlimitly condition so far in distense from God only God can make right. In human terms and understanding you can compare who would be, if one, worthy to be accepted in the Kingdom of God but that is a human understanding of the impossible, in other words an unfair account that bring up more problems which are most ignored. It is like saying can God created a rock too heavy for Him to lift? They are silly interventions of the human mind, meaning placed together which seem to make sense intellectually because we our selfs have not experienced of what God is really like.

Sin will only treaten the human race once, and because of this God will only come and save us from hell once, one sin means an unlimited amount of sins, they to God are equal in meaning. God is unlimited in all things and all powerful is all things, so why would one sin affect God in reflection to His own creation to an uncountable amount of sins? It is not how many sins you and I commit which takes us on the journey to hell but the pride which we choose to keep.
tkubok
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1/15/2010 9:51:26 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/15/2010 9:47:08 AM, GodSands wrote:
: At 1/15/2010 8:35:16 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 1/14/2010 5:49:25 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 1/14/2010 5:28:15 PM, Puck wrote:
At 1/14/2010 5:25:31 PM, GodSands wrote:
but no one will ever know the meaning behind the cost and price which Christ, God's only Son died on the cross.

Nothing. See resurrection.


Sorry? The resurrection shows that Jesus is God by rising from the dead, that death is not the end (most people then believed there was life after death, just in a different form) the resurrection also shows that whoever believes in Christ will be set free from sin (in that they will be be slaves to sin) and they will have eternal life. It also shows the trasformation of the dead spirit within everyhuman to a living spirit in Christ, as if Christ is walking ahead of you and you are following him, this is show throughout your life through moral choices and the transformation of your inner self, your spirit.

However the price and the reason for why God willingly wanted to do this, kill Christ, is totally beyond our understanding likewise with demons understanding. To begin with when our individual lives are worthless to someone we do not know, you next meal will be worth more to you that a life in Africa, we to God are worth less than a dying mite to us. In relation, you could not imagine a comparson for your sin and Christ, you could not give me an analogy, just like you cannot for the existence of God and evolution.

Sorry? How does this change the fact that Jesus didnt sacrifice anything for our sins? How does this change the fact that the sacrifice does not exist? If God is the creator of all things, what is a physical body to him? Couldnt he just make another one?


No, God had one Son only, God could not have sent a perfect angel to die for our sins because the angels was created by God dispite the angels perfection in absoluate everything, Jesus is God, the Son of God reflects the humans understanding that God is our spiritual Father. God is now in form of Christ, a human like us for eternaty, even though God is the master of the universe. Our sin was and is a heavy, heavy price, no amount of money can settle.

What does any of this have to do with my question.

God is perfect, that it's self is beyond us, we can only describle perfection as abstract blurs or personal accounts, even the nicest and kindest of men are desting for hell because like Hitler they are equally far from God because they are in a unlimitly condition so far in distense from God only God can make right. In human terms and understanding you can compare who would be, if one, worthy to be accepted in the Kingdom of God but that is a human understanding of the impossible, in other words an unfair account that bring up more problems which are most ignored. It is like saying can God created a rock too heavy for Him to lift? They are silly interventions of the human mind, meaning placed together which seem to make sense intellectually because we our selfs have not experienced of what God is really like.
Again, which question of mine, is this paragraph addressing?
Sin will only treaten the human race once, and because of this God will only come and save us from hell once, one sin means an unlimited amount of sins, they to God are equal in meaning. God is unlimited in all things and all powerful is all things, so why would one sin affect God in reflection to His own creation to an uncountable amount of sins? It is not how many sins you and I commit which takes us on the journey to hell but the pride which we choose to keep.

Seroiusly, this answers none of my questions.

I asked how Jesus' death was a SACRIFICE. According to christian doctrine, it was supposed to be a sacrifice. It was supposed to be Jesus doing something, giving something up for humanity. Yet, he gave up nothing. Its not a sacrifice at all. You spouted off about how God is perfect, but he sent an imperfect son, and how everyone deserves to go to hell, etc, but i ask, what does any of this have to do with my question?
GodSands
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1/15/2010 11:25:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Seroiusly, this answers none of my questions.

I asked how Jesus' death was a SACRIFICE. According to christian doctrine, it was supposed to be a sacrifice. It was supposed to be Jesus doing something, giving something up for humanity. Yet, he gave up nothing. Its not a sacrifice at all. You spouted off about how God is perfect, but he sent an imperfect son, and how everyone deserves to go to hell, etc, but i ask, what does any of this have to do with my question?


And I said because God lived as a man like us, he was tempted as we are, yet did not sin once, and that there should have passed Christ off the death deal which all humans must face. God didn't have to do anything at all to save us at all, but God did, if I explain it anymore than this I would be wasting my time, as in no words can possibly descible the meanings behind what God did. Given the unlimited power and might of God that ANYTHING is possible that nothing is hard or easy for Him, that is a pure human concept which is not at all apart of God's nature.

To clear this up that God rested on the 7th day just was an intercation to humans that the 7th day was a day of rest, not necessary meaning labour but a rest in another sense that was lost when sin fell upon the universe, so I believe.

To understand that Christ was a sacrafise you have to lose the pridfulness, ofcourse you will say Jesus was barely a sacrafise because the sacrafise which was, does not have any effect on your life but some social credit.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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1/15/2010 11:30:26 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/15/2010 11:25:07 AM, GodSands wrote:
Seroiusly, this answers none of my questions.

I asked how Jesus' death was a SACRIFICE. According to christian doctrine, it was supposed to be a sacrifice. It was supposed to be Jesus doing something, giving something up for humanity. Yet, he gave up nothing. Its not a sacrifice at all. You spouted off about how God is perfect, but he sent an imperfect son, and how everyone deserves to go to hell, etc, but i ask, what does any of this have to do with my question?


And I said because God lived as a man like us, he was tempted as we are, yet did not sin once,

What branch of Christianity is this, if you accept the trinity then he can not have been tempted nor commit sin on account of being God.

and that there should have passed Christ off the death deal which all humans must face. God didn't have to do anything at all to save us at all, but God did, if I explain it anymore than this I would be wasting my time, as in no words can possibly descible the meanings behind what God did.

Then you are asking as to believe in flurble mucunkypunk.
Why would God grant as rationality and then demand that we do not employ it?

To understand that Christ was a sacrafise you have to lose the pridfulness, ofcourse you will say Jesus was barely a sacrafise because the sacrafise which was, does not have any effect on your life but some social credit.

That does not wash, language is a symbol, the symbols have a range of agreed meanings. If the sacrifice of Jesus is not demonstratable as a sacrifice then it is not and you need to find a new term.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
GodSands
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1/15/2010 6:31:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
What branch of Christianity is this, if you accept the trinity then he can not have been tempted nor commit sin on account of being God.

Christ was tempted but Christ did not sin.

Then you are asking as to believe in flurble mucunkypunk.
Why would God grant as rationality and then demand that we do not employ it?


It is rational, you choose not to part take in letting go of your pridefulness. You don't even realise you are prideful, you don't want to admit you are, if you do you are edging towards God's grace, you are showing you are at least humble enough to admit. Every human who does not have God is prideful of their sin. Rational, God is very rational, saying that God becomming a man as Christ and dying for our sins requires no rational explanation, it is personal to an individual which effects a individual and others in their individual lives. it is not science or maths but apart of a individuals path of hope to truth by faith, it becomes their conceptual scheme which they track.

That does not wash, language is a symbol, the symbols have a range of agreed meanings. If the sacrifice of Jesus is not demonstratable as a sacrifice then it is not and you need to find a new term.

Seeing Jesus Christ die now as he did then would not make you believe anymore. Do you not understand? If it was about seeing God would have sent Himself many times over, it is about faith and believing, not about a meterialistic bound understanding of how God saves you by witnessing suffering and pain, it is not about sorrow but about forgiveness and savation through Christ.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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1/15/2010 11:44:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/15/2010 6:31:13 PM, GodSands wrote:
What branch of Christianity is this, if you accept the trinity then he can not have been tempted nor commit sin on account of being God.

Christ was tempted but Christ did not sin.


If Christ is God then he can not be tempted, he can not sin, he can not also decide his 'death' was a sacrifice to himself.

Then you are asking as to believe in flurble mucunkypunk.
Why would God grant as rationality and then demand that we do not employ it?


It is rational, you choose not to part take in letting go of your pridefulness. You don't even realise you are prideful, you don't want to admit you are, if you do you are edging towards God's grace, you are showing you are at least humble enough to admit. Every human who does not have God is prideful of their sin.

It has nothing to do with pride, my pride does not prevent me from objectively assessing the data. Bhuddists actively deny their personal egos and beg in the street, they are humble yet they do not convert to Christianity (as a general rule).

Rational, God is very rational, saying that God becomming a man as Christ and dying for our sins requires no rational explanation, it is personal to an individual which effects a individual and others in their individual lives. it is not science or maths but apart of a individuals path of hope to truth by faith, it becomes their conceptual scheme which they track.

How did he die for our sins? What does that even mean?
He can not be a sacrifice as he fails to fulfill the criteria for such.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
GodSands
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1/16/2010 7:11:53 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 1/15/2010 11:44:47 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 1/15/2010 6:31:13 PM, GodSands wrote:
What branch of Christianity is this, if you accept the trinity then he can not have been tempted nor commit sin on account of being God.

Christ was tempted but Christ did not sin.


If Christ is God then he can not be tempted, he can not sin, he can not also decide his 'death' was a sacrifice to himself.

Then you are asking as to believe in flurble mucunkypunk.
Why would God grant as rationality and then demand that we do not employ it?


It is rational, you choose not to part take in letting go of your pridefulness. You don't even realise you are prideful, you don't want to admit you are, if you do you are edging towards God's grace, you are showing you are at least humble enough to admit. Every human who does not have God is prideful of their sin.

It has nothing to do with pride, my pride does not prevent me from objectively assessing the data. Bhuddists actively deny their personal egos and beg in the street, they are humble yet they do not convert to Christianity (as a general rule).

Rational, God is very rational, saying that God becomming a man as Christ and dying for our sins requires no rational explanation, it is personal to an individual which effects a individual and others in their individual lives. it is not science or maths but apart of a individuals path of hope to truth by faith, it becomes their conceptual scheme which they track.

How did he die for our sins? What does that even mean?
He can not be a sacrifice as he fails to fulfill the criteria for such.


Good questions, however I myself am not in the right time in my life to answer them fully. I will answer them in breif.

Christ was a man like any other man, Jesus did not have the seed of man as wer do, therefore Jesus' DNA did not have the code in it telling him you must sin, yet he was tempted.

Jesus' death was a sacrifise to the human race, a gift to us from God. Look at it like this, the love we get from God should be on Jesus Christ at the time of his death, but instead it was placed onto us, God enjoyed crushing His Son so that we may have life. God was please and satisfied by the fact that Jesus died.

No good deed will get anyone into the Kingdom of God, no evil deed can stop you from getting into the Kingdom of God either. You can commit murder and be forgiven. You see, this is a reason why no man will understand why God killed His Son for us. There is no analogy which you can compare to it. If there was, you would be easy to covert.

How did Christ die for our sins, by dying as God, God died as a human, being God and dying in front of your own creation as Christ new he was the creator would have been deeply embarrassing. Christ was not so concerned about the pain in comparison to the reject of the Father. Spiritual pain is far worse that physical pain, believe me.
resolutionsmasher
Posts: 579
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1/16/2010 9:36:38 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/8/2009 3:33:07 PM, leet4A1 wrote:
LOL! I hadn't heard of the "fecal fetish" verses, they are gold!

Good one boys... I would love to see a Christian defend some of these verses as the word of a just god.

Even if I did you would ignore me anyway. You don't want an explanation, you don't want truth, you spit at the truth because it says you're hopeless by yourself, you decapitate logic because it doesn't agree with you, you beg your leaders for their lies and then kill the righteous because they refuse to tolerate your vile ways. You have no hope, no possible positive outcome.... until you turn from that vise like addiction to filth.
In the relationship between Obama and the rest of the U.S..... I think the U.S. is getting the short end of the hockey stick.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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1/16/2010 10:07:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/16/2010 7:11:53 AM, GodSands wrote:

Christ was a man like any other man, Jesus did not have the seed of man as wer do, therefore Jesus' DNA did not have the code in it telling him you must sin, yet he was tempted.


Are you a trinitarian, in which case my point that Jesus is still God seems relevant still?

Now another question is, should be possible to clone humans using DNA sourced only from women (which apparently is possible or will be) will they also lack the DNA telling them to sin?

Jesus' death was a sacrifise to the human race, a gift to us from God.

A sacrifice is to appease and placate, are you saying that God needed to appease humanity?

Look at it like this, the love we get from God should be on Jesus Christ at the time of his death, but instead it was placed onto us, God enjoyed crushing His Son so that we may have life. God was please and satisfied by the fact that Jesus died.


This does not seem to make sense, I can't understand this, is there another way to explain this?

No good deed will get anyone into the Kingdom of God, no evil deed can stop you from getting into the Kingdom of God either. You can commit murder and be forgiven. You see, this is a reason why no man will understand why God killed His Son for us. There is no analogy which you can compare to it. If there was, you would be easy to covert.


Well you must see the frustration of an atheist or agnostic, you are asking us to view religion in a way that is totally alien. You are asking us to have faith in something that does not appear to make conventional sense.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
resolutionsmasher
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1/16/2010 10:24:30 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/16/2010 7:11:53 AM, GodSands wrote:
Jesus' death was a sacrifice to the human race, a gift to us from God. Look at it like this, the love we get from God should be on Jesus Christ at the time of his death, but instead it was placed onto us, God enjoyed crushing His Son so that we may have life. God was please and satisfied by the fact that Jesus died.

You are sorely misunderstood. God had a just purpose in seeing his son give his own life for our sin, but it hurt God more than we can imagine. Think of what it feels like to lose one's only son and magnify that pain a million fold. God felt that and so much more. Don't tell me that he enjoyed turning his back on his only son because of our sin. Imagine what Abraham felt when he was told to sacrifice his only son. That event was an analogy of God's sacrifice of his own son.
In the relationship between Obama and the rest of the U.S..... I think the U.S. is getting the short end of the hockey stick.
I-am-a-panda
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1/16/2010 12:10:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/16/2010 10:24:30 AM, resolutionsmasher wrote:
At 1/16/2010 7:11:53 AM, GodSands wrote:
Jesus' death was a sacrifice to the human race, a gift to us from God. Look at it like this, the love we get from God should be on Jesus Christ at the time of his death, but instead it was placed onto us, God enjoyed crushing His Son so that we may have life. God was please and satisfied by the fact that Jesus died.

You are sorely misunderstood. God had a just purpose in seeing his son give his own life for our sin, but it hurt God more than we can imagine. Think of what it feels like to lose one's only son and magnify that pain a million fold. God felt that and so much more. Don't tell me that he enjoyed turning his back on his only son because of our sin. Imagine what Abraham felt when he was told to sacrifice his only son. That event was an analogy of God's sacrifice of his own son.

Why would God only have one son? He's omnipotent.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
gr33k_fr33k5
Posts: 321
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1/17/2010 2:42:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/16/2010 12:10:37 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 1/16/2010 10:24:30 AM, resolutionsmasher wrote:
At 1/16/2010 7:11:53 AM, GodSands wrote:

Why would God only have one son? He's omnipotent.

if you think that jesus is literally the "son" of god as we understand it then you are sorely mistaken.

It is hard to fathom the entire trinity idea and how jesus really works, but in my pathetic attempt at rationalizing this truth this is what I have come up with:

God only has "one" son because he doesn't see fit that there would be more. . . ..
Jesus isn't literally the "son" of god, this is because God is not human, hes spirit, and so the "holy Spirit" and "Jesus Christ" are almost terms that we use to define different parts of God's infinite being.

Jesus is part of God, and so God sent his "son" down to us, and clothed the infinite power of his being in human flesh and bones . . .. this is what is so amazing about what God did through Jesus. . .. . .

likewise, the holy spirit is merely a term that we use to refer to the current power that God manifests on earth, and don't scoff, its real. . . I've seen it and you can't tell me differently.. . . . just because you are too busy laughing and mocking to give a second look doesn't mean that what I believe is any less true than your own personal beliefs . .. .

regarding whether Jesus "sacrificed" anything. . . .. well, for starters he spent 36 years ( something like this) in a pathetic human body. He spent his ENTIRE life helping others, trying to bring light to an ignorant and lost people and how was he repayed? He was tortured and killed. . . .. the sacrifice was definitely existent. .. . . but that is'nt the most important part, whats really important is the gift that he gave to us. . . .. free of charge he has given us the ability to live forever. . . so while there may have been a sacrifice, I believe that the gift is what we need to look to . . . ..

This is the best I can explain it. . . .. and I may very well be wrong, but I have yet to find another Christian who can give a better picture of the trinity and namely Jesus. . ..
I am free, free indeed!

ignorance is bliss
InsertNameHere
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1/17/2010 3:06:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The whole Trinity concept just seems polytheistic to me. I'll like to hear your thoughts on that, Gr33k. What separates the Christian trinity from polytheism?
Cerebral_Narcissist
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1/17/2010 11:55:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Can the Christians here plase work out if they are nicean, arian or something else before wading into arguments concerning the nature of Jesus!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.