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What really is the kingdom?

MadCornishBiker
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7/17/2013 10:26:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I have had so many disputes over what the kingdom is, what it promises a mankind, and when it will come. I figured I better start a thread on it. From having done a pre-run of it. It's gravitate towards reposts to put it up, but here goes.

Definition: The Kingdom of God is the expression of Jehovah"s universal sovereignty toward his creatures, or the means used by him to express that sovereignty. This term is used particularly to designate the manifestation of God"s sovereignty through the royal government headed by his Son, Jesus Christ. "Kingdom" may refer to the rulership of the one anointed as King or to the earthly realm ruled by that heavenly government.

Is God"s Kingdom a real government?

Or is it, instead, a condition in the hearts of men?

Luke 17:21,
KJ: "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you [also TEV, Dy; but "among you," KJ margin, NE, JB; "in the midst of you," RS; "in your midst," NW]."

Does the Bible actually speak of God"s Kingdom as being a government?

Isa. 9:6, 7, RS: "To us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government [also KJ,
AT, Dy; "dominion," JB, NE; "princely rule," NW] will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end."

Who are the rulers in the Kingdom?

Rev. 15:3: "Great and wonderful are your works, Jehovah God, the Almighty. Righteous and true are your ways, King of eternity."

Dan. 7:13, 14: "With the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man
happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him."

Rev. 5:9, 10: "You were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth."

What effect will this Kingdom have on human governments?

Dan. 2:44: "In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite."

Ps. 2:8, 9: "Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance and the ends of the earth as your own possession. You will break them with an iron scepter, as though a potter"s vessel you will dash them to pieces."

What will God"s Kingdom accomplish?

Sanctify Jehovah"s name and uphold his sovereignty

Matt. 6:9, 10: "You must pray, then, this way: "Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come.""

Ezek. 38:23: "I shall certainly magnify myself and sanctify myself and make myself known before the eyes of many nations; and they will have to know that I am Jehovah."

Put an end to Satan"s tolerated rulership over the world

Rev. 20:2, 3: "He seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, that he might not mislead the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After these things he must be let loose for a little while."

Unify all creation in worship of the one true God

Rev. 5:13; 15:3, 4: "And every creature that is in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, I heard saying: "To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever."" "Great and wonderful are your works, Jehovah God, the Almighty. Righteous and true are your ways, King of eternity. Who will not really fear you, Jehovah, and glorify your name, because you alone are loyal? For all the nations will come and worship before you, because your righteous decrees have been made manifest."

Bring mankind back into harmonious relationship with God

Rom. 8:19-21: "The eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself [mankind in general] also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God."
Free mankind from all threat of war

Ps. 46:8, 9: "Come, you people, behold the activities of Jehovah, how he has set astonishing events on the earth. He is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth."

Isa. 2:4: "They will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore."

Rid the earth of corrupt rulers and oppression

Ps. 110:5: "Jehovah himself at your right hand will certainly break kings to pieces on the day of his anger."

Ps. 72:12-14: "He will deliver the poor one crying for help, also the afflicted one and whoever has no helper. He will feel sorry for the lowly one and the poor one, and the souls of the poor ones he will save. From oppression and from violence he will redeem their soul, and their blood will be precious in his eyes.2

Provide an abundance of food for all mankind

Ps. 72:16: "There will come to be plenty of grain on the earth; on the top of the mountains there will be an overflow."

Isa. 25:6: "Jehovah of armies will certainly make for all the peoples, in this mountain [in heavenly Mount Zion, the seat of God"s Kingdom, provision for its earthly subjects will be made], a banquet of well-oiled dishes, a banquet of wine kept on the dregs, of well-oiled dishes filled with marrow, of wine kept on the dregs, filtered."

Remove sickness and disabilities of all kinds

Luke 7:22; 9:11: "Go your way, report to John what you saw and heard: the blind are receiving sight, the lame are walking, the lepers are being cleansed and the deaf are hearing, the dead are being raised up, the poor are being told the good news." "He received them kindly and began to speak to them about the kingdom of God, and he healed those needing a cure."

Provide suitable homes for everyone

Isa. 65:21, 22: "They will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat their fruitage. They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating."

Assure satisfying employment for all

Isa. 65:23: "They will not toil for nothing, nor will they bring to birth for disturbance; because they are the offspring made up of the blessed ones of Jehovah, and their descendants with them."

Guarantee security, freedom from danger to one"s person or property

Mic. 4:4: "They will actually sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree, and there will be no one making them tremble; for the very mouth of Jehovah of armies has spoken it."

Ps. 37:10, 11: "Just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; and you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."

Cause righteousness and justice to prevail

2 Pet. 3:13: "There are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell."

Isa. 11:3-5: "He [the Messianic King] will not judge by any mere appearance to his eyes, nor reprove simply according to the thing heard by his ears. And with righteousness he must judge the lowly ones, and with uprightness he must give reproof in behalf of the meek ones of the earth. . . . And righteousness must pr
MadCornishBiker
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7/17/2013 10:31:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Part 2

Safeguard mankind from any injury due to natural forces

Mark 4:37-41: "Now a great violent windstorm broke out, and the waves kept dashing into the boat, so that the boat was close to being swamped. . . . With that he [Jesus] roused himself and rebuked the wind and said to the sea: "Hush! Be quiet!" And the wind abated, and a great calm set in. . . . But they felt an unusual fear, and they would say to one another: "Who really is this, because even the wind and the sea obey him?""

Resurrect the dead

John 5:28, 29: "Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice [the voice of Christ the King] and come out."

Rev. 20:12: "I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds [those done following their resurrection; compare Romans 6:7]."

Remove all death due to inheritance of Adamic sin

Isa. 25:8: "He will actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will certainly wipe the tears from all faces."

Rev. 21:4: "He will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away."

Provide a world in which people genuinely love one another

John 13:35: "By this all will know that you are my disciples [hence, in line to be Jesus" associates in the heavenly Kingdom or earthly subjects of that Kingdom], if you have love among yourselves."

Bring animals and humans into harmonious relationship with one another

Isa. 11:6-9: "The wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand. They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain." (Also Isaiah 65:25)

Hos. 2:18: "For them I shall certainly conclude a covenant in that day in connection with the wild beast of the field and with the flying creature of the heavens and the creeping thing of the ground, . . . and I will make them lie down in security."

Make the earth a paradise

Luke 23:43: "Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise."

Ps. 98:7-9: "Let the sea thunder and that which fills it, the productive land and those dwelling in it. Let the rivers themselves clap their hands; all together let the very mountains cry out joyfully before Jehovah, for he has come to judge the earth. He will judge the productive land with righteousness and the peoples with uprightness."

Compare Genesis 1:28; 2:15; Isaiah 55:11.
When was God"s Kingdom to begin to rule?

Was it in the first century?

Col. 1:1, 2, 13: "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through God"s will, and Timothy our brother to the holy ones . . . He [God] delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us [the holy ones, members of the Christian congregation] into the kingdom of the Son of his love."

1 Cor. 4:8: "You men already have your fill, do you? You are rich already, are you? You have begun ruling as kings without us, have you? And I wish indeed that you had begun ruling as kings, that we also might rule with you as kings."

Rev. 12:10, 12: "Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time."

Must the coming to power of God"s Kingdom await the conversion of the world?

Ps. 110:1, 2: "The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord [Jesus Christ] is: "Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet." The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, saying: "Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.""

Matt. 25:31-46: "When the Son of man [Jesus Christ] arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. . . . And these
will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life."

So everything I have claimed for the kingdom, and others on here have denied truly are kingdom promises. They are the promise of the state of the Earth after Christ's hands the kingdom over to his father. When the kingdom will be finally and fully established under his father's reign, and mankind will once again enjoy the same relationship with God that Adam and Eve had before they sinned.

Okay I squeezed into two posts.

That is what Jesus taught us all to pray for with his model prayer, which some call the Lord's prayer as if it was intended to be repeated word for word.
Naysayer
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7/17/2013 10:36:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
There are actually two kingdoms spoken of in the gospels: The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom, the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. The Bible says quite clearly that the Kingdom of God is within us. The Kingdom of Heaven is Christ's physical kingdom at the end of the church age and forever. It is Christ on the throne. There are nations and the people all serve Christ.
MadCornishBiker
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7/17/2013 11:20:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/17/2013 10:36:41 AM, Naysayer wrote:
There are actually two kingdoms spoken of in the gospels: The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom, the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. The Bible says quite clearly that the Kingdom of God is within us. The Kingdom of Heaven is Christ's physical kingdom at the end of the church age and forever. It is Christ on the throne. There are nations and the people all serve Christ.

in some translations, it says that yes, but when you consider who Jesus was talking to at the time it could not literally mean in their hearts.other translations much more reasonably render it in your midst, which meant that Jesus was referring to himself as the kingdom, because he was it's King designate.

This is one reason it is so important to compare a number of translations. Almost every translations available has been translated by ones who wish to prove the Trinity, and therefore has been biased in that direction.

Comparing multiple translations does at least go some way to widening out the biases. However the only way to truly understand Scripture is through the guidance of holy spirit.

Revelation 12:10
10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
"Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God+ and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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7/17/2013 11:27:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/17/2013 10:42:04 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
I believe there isn't just one kingdom, it depends on the context.

John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Naysayer
Posts: 746
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7/17/2013 2:21:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/17/2013 11:20:19 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/17/2013 10:36:41 AM, Naysayer wrote:
There are actually two kingdoms spoken of in the gospels: The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom, the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. The Bible says quite clearly that the Kingdom of God is within us. The Kingdom of Heaven is Christ's physical kingdom at the end of the church age and forever. It is Christ on the throne. There are nations and the people all serve Christ.

in some translations, it says that yes, but when you consider who Jesus was talking to at the time it could not literally mean in their hearts.other translations much more reasonably render it in your midst, which meant that Jesus was referring to himself as the kingdom, because he was it's King designate.

This is one reason it is so important to compare a number of translations. Almost every translations available has been translated by ones who wish to prove the Trinity, and therefore has been biased in that direction.

Comparing multiple translations does at least go some way to widening out the biases. However the only way to truly understand Scripture is through the guidance of holy spirit.

Revelation 12:10
10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
"Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God+ and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!

54 scholars that lived and breathed the old languages and studied them spending seven years to make a translation with integrity in the hopes of putting the Word of God in the hands of man in defiance of a murderous, deceitful Catholic church or one man sitting in his house with a bunch of corrupted translations. I think I'll stick with my book and their translation. It's worked the last 400 years. Everyone that keeps coming up with something new has an agenda that has nothing to do with being holy.
annanicole
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7/17/2013 4:13:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
MCB: "The Kingdom of God is the expression of Jehovah"s universal sovereignty toward his creatures, or the means used by him to express that sovereignty."

Anna: We haven't been particularly talking about the "Kingdom of God" per se. God had a kingdom back in the Old Testament. We have been talking about the so-called "kingdom of heaven" or "kingdom of the Lord" or "kingdom of Jesus Christ" as the term is commonly used in the NT.

Thus, the definition is wrong - or you are defining the wrong thing. What we mean - and what Christ meant - by the term "the kingdom" is that royal (or kingly) priesthood over which Jesus Christ rules as king. THAT is the kingdom, obviously, which was "at hand" and to "shortly come to pass" during Jesus' ministry, because the "time is fulfilled" for it.

Certainly the term kingdom is used in other senses. It is occasionally employed with reference to heaven itself.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
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7/17/2013 4:37:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/17/2013 4:13:46 PM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "The Kingdom of God is the expression of Jehovah"s universal sovereignty toward his creatures, or the means used by him to express that sovereignty."

Anna: We haven't been particularly talking about the "Kingdom of God" per se. God had a kingdom back in the Old Testament. We have been talking about the so-called "kingdom of heaven" or "kingdom of the Lord" or "kingdom of Jesus Christ" as the term is commonly used in the NT.

Thus, the definition is wrong - or you are defining the wrong thing. What we mean - and what Christ meant - by the term "the kingdom" is that royal (or kingly) priesthood over which Jesus Christ rules as king. THAT is the kingdom, obviously, which was "at hand" and to "shortly come to pass" during Jesus' ministry, because the "time is fulfilled" for it.

Certainly the term kingdom is used in other senses. It is occasionally employed with reference to heaven itself.

That is the kingdom, there is only one, currently Christ is the ruler of it but eventually it will be handed back to his father, because it is and always was the kingdom of God..

That is the kingdom that Christ is going to spend 1000 years preparing for his father. The kingdom, which will eventually rule over the whole of this earth.

I am continually surprised by how little you understand, but really I shouldn't be, after all your reaction, and that of others like you, was all prophesied by Christ and the Apostles.
annanicole
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7/17/2013 5:30:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
MCB: "That is the kingdom, there is only one, currently Christ is the ruler of it but eventually it will be handed back to his father, because it is and always was the kingdom of God."

Anna: Did this "kingdom of God" exist, say, when Christ was born in Nazareth. If so, who ruled over it? Where was it?

*****

MCB: "That is the kingdom that Christ is going to spend 1000 years preparing for his father."

Anna: Oh, blah. That's more of your wishful speculation. There is no passage that teaches any such thing.

*****

MCB: "I am continually surprised by how little you understand"

Anna: The pope said the same thing to Galileo. I am continually amazed by the stuff that you simply make up or conjecture. Pure speculation, constantly.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
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7/17/2013 6:08:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
MCB: "MCB: "I am continually surprised by how little you understand"

Anna: I like that statement, especially from one who takes "shortly come to pass" and "at hand" and "nigh unto you" because "the time is fulfilled" and says, "No! Wait! The time wasn't really fulfilled back then, and the kingdom was not to shortly come to pass. It got around to coming in 1914!"

Now that's pretty good! Everyone from John to Jesus to the seventy to the twelve all said the same thing! You say, "No, a day is as a thousand years. It rolled around in 1914."

And when NOTHING happened in 1914 - nothing any different than had happened before or since, so it was an "invisible coming". LOL. All calculated based upon the 70 weeks of Daniel, and you do not even know where the calculations came from!

Man, if I believed all that stuff, I'd be very careful about saying, "I am continually surprised by how little you understand". After all, aren't you the one who told everyone that the kingdom was "seen" at the "transfiguration"?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
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7/18/2013 4:46:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/17/2013 6:08:04 PM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "MCB: "I am continually surprised by how little you understand"

Anna: I like that statement, especially from one who takes "shortly come to pass" and "at hand" and "nigh unto you" because "the time is fulfilled" and says, "No! Wait! The time wasn't really fulfilled back then, and the kingdom was not to shortly come to pass. It got around to coming in 1914!"

Now that's pretty good! Everyone from John to Jesus to the seventy to the twelve all said the same thing! You say, "No, a day is as a thousand years. It rolled around in 1914."

And when NOTHING happened in 1914 - nothing any different than had happened before or since, so it was an "invisible coming". LOL. All calculated based upon the 70 weeks of Daniel, and you do not even know where the calculations came from!

Man, if I believed all that stuff, I'd be very careful about saying, "I am continually surprised by how little you understand". After all, aren't you the one who told everyone that the kingdom was "seen" at the "transfiguration"?

which, of course, is precisely why I say how little you understand. If you understood Scripture you would understand that those phrases can mean any period of time that God chooses to let them mean.

That is why you have to fit it in without the Scriptures, prophecies, and the signs we are told to look out for.

That statement is 100% accurate.

The Transfiguration was for those who saw it before green and the kingdom, in that it showed Christ in his glory to come. And since kingdom is sometimes used to indicate the King, Christ, that is a perfectly valid understanding.

I am careful about saying everything I say, okay I let the odd thing is that through thoughtlessly, like saying 120 instead of something like around 120 which were made it less of a specific number, but I've never claimed to be perfect. The only thing about me that is perfect is the understanding that holy spirit gives me, and utterly perfect because it isn't mine.
MadCornishBiker
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7/18/2013 5:14:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/17/2013 6:08:04 PM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "MCB: "I am continually surprised by how little you understand"

Anna: I like that statement, especially from one who takes "shortly come to pass" and "at hand" and "nigh unto you" because "the time is fulfilled" and says, "No! Wait! The time wasn't really fulfilled back then, and the kingdom was not to shortly come to pass. It got around to coming in 1914!"

Now that's pretty good! Everyone from John to Jesus to the seventy to the twelve all said the same thing! You say, "No, a day is as a thousand years. It rolled around in 1914."

And when NOTHING happened in 1914 - nothing any different than had happened before or since, so it was an "invisible coming". LOL. All calculated based upon the 70 weeks of Daniel, and you do not even know where the calculations came from!

Man, if I believed all that stuff, I'd be very careful about saying, "I am continually surprised by how little you understand". After all, aren't you the one who told everyone that the kingdom was "seen" at the "transfiguration"?

why do you say nothing happened?

How do you know nothing happened?

Can you see into heaven?

I don't think many people would call the First World War nothing. after all, it was such a dramatically different war, with so many people killed. They called it the war to end all wars, little did they know.

True what the Bible students expected, along with a number of others, didn't happen, but that is only because, like you, they were reading too much into the prophecies and expecting too much to happen too quickly. There were so many more things to which that was merely the match that lit the fuse, that they hadn't realised until they were revealed to them.

Incidentally, you asked who else understood 1914 to be what it is, and was. Where do you think the church, Seventh-day Adventists, got their name from? At one time they to believed in 1914, but when what they expected didn't happen they deserted the idea completely. In their pride and arrogance it never dawned on them for 1 minute that it might simply have been that they expected more than was due.

Only those who later became known as Jehovah's Witnesses have the humility and honesty to say to themselves, but the prophecy could not be wrong, because Scripture never is, therefore, their expectations must have been. And they went back to the drawing board, so to speak, to find out what they had missed.

When they prayerfully considered everything that Scripture said about the kingdom and the time when Jesus was to take up his throne, they realised that they would work to do, Matthew 24:14 for a start, which had to be done between Christ taking up his throne, and Armageddon.

At first they still expected it to happen quicker than they later learned it was going to. But at least they learned. At least they have the humility just ask themselves what they got wrong rather than blaming God as so many others did.

They did also make the mistake of publishing a statement which, with all the troubles in Israel suggested it might be an appropriate time for Armageddon to happen, but they didn't state it as a fact, they were too surprised when it didn't.

One of the problems, that we all face as humans, is wondering just how far God can let things deteriorate before he has to, as Jesus said, cut those days short or no flesh would be saved.

We keep saying it can't be long now, and in spiritual terms, it can't, but again we come across. The problem of what is "can't be long now" in God's terms.

Unlike you, I don't claim to be able to read God's mind so that I know exactly what he means by every single word. I feel the need to check up in Scripture and get those statements qualified. However, that is one statement of which there is little or no qualification in Scripture, only hints.

The only hint to that, is that between Armageddon and Christ handing over the kingdom to his father, there is an awful lot to happen, which is going to take an awful lot of time. Which simply pushes Armageddon closer this way than the other.

I repeat my previous statement, that I never cease to be amazed, at how little you understand. However, considering your tendency to limit God to meanings that you want to see, I shouldn't be at all surprised.

I always keeping my mind a statement, which of all things comes from one of the Alice in Wonderland stories, it goes, " when I use a word, it means precisely that wish it which I wish it to mean, nothing more nothing less."

That saying, despite coming from a work of fiction, is a constant reminder that what matters is not what we think the word means, but what the author meant by it.

Yet another reason we need the guidance of the holy spirit to understand what God meant when he inspired.

Even some works of fiction contain very wise sayings, rather like Mr Micawber's comment on getting into debt, which every government on this planet could have done with remembering, decades ago.
Sower4GS
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7/18/2013 6:38:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The Kingdom is the full Reality of YHWH not the false name Jehovah.
It is where YHWH and the Eternal Moshiach Yahushua Reign and exist with their Ruach (Spirit) forever. No begining and no end. The Son, of course and as Scripture explains constantly. is not a creation. The flesh He entered was born of a women duh, but that does not make the Son who is Echad (One) with the Father, a creation. That is a stupid idea from foolish minds that work outside YHWH's kingdom.
annanicole
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7/20/2013 7:34:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
MCB: "If you understood Scripture you would understand that those phrases can mean any period of time that God chooses to let them mean."

Anna: Then they mean NOTHING - which is precisely what I said that you believe! And you were up in arms over it! I stand by the statements. According to your doctrine, the phrases "at hand", "nigh unto you", "shortly come to pass", etc. are absolutely meaningless! They are useless! They are of no import whatsoever! They simply mean whatever you say they mean - in order to "fit in".

MCB: "Only those who later became known as Jehovah's Witnesses have the humility and honesty to say to themselves, but the prophecy could not be wrong, because Scripture never is, therefore, their expectations must have been. And they went back to the drawing board, so to speak, to find out what they had missed."

Anna: I wouldn't call it "humility and honesty" - I'd say they merely tried to save face among their rapidly-deserting membership, and fabricated an "invisible coming". Christ "came" - but nobody saw it.

Do you know that I can take the WatchTower's OWN LITERATURE, and prove that 1914 cannot be correct? Anybody can! All one has to do is calculate the lengths of the reigns of the NeoBabylonian kings. Many have done so.

*****

MCB: "Incidentally, you asked who else understood 1914 to be what it is, and was. Where do you think the church, Seventh-day Adventists, got their name from? At one time they to believed in 1914"

Anna: I do not recall the Adventists advancing the claim that Jesus would return in 1914. Do you have some source that states such?

*****

MCB: "They did also make the mistake of publishing a statement which, with all the troubles in Israel suggested it might be an appropriate time for Armageddon to happen, but they didn't state it as a fact, they were too surprised when it didn't."

Anna: From the AWAKE! magazine, Oct 6, 1968, pp. 14-15, under an article entitled, "6,000 Years Nearing Completion"

"The fact that fifty-four years of the period called the "last days" have already gone by is highly significant. It means that only a few years, at most, remain before the corrupt system of things dominating the earth is destroyed by God. Today, many years later, we may ask, What does the phrase "the immediate future" mean? How many years are "a few years at most"?"only seven more years from the autumn of 1968 to complete 6,000 full years of human history. That seven-year period will evidently finish in the autumn of the year 1975."

Are the facts and conclusions from this AWAKE! article from FORTY-FIVE YEARS AGO correct or not?

From the WATCHTOWER magazine, May 1, 1968, pp.271-273, under the article "Making Wise Use of the Remaining Time"

The immediate future is certain to be filled with climactic events, for this old system is nearing its complete end. Within a few years at most the final parts of Bible prophecy relative to these "last days" will undergo fulfillment, resulting in the liberation of surviving mankind into Christ"s glorious 1,000-year reign. What difficult days, but, at the same time, what grand days are just ahead!

Does this mean that the year 1975 will bring the battle of Armageddon? No one can say with certainty what any particular year will bring. Jesus said: "Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows." (Mark 13:32) Sufficient is it for God"s servants to know for a certainty that, for this system under Satan, time is running out rapidly. How foolish a person would be not to be awake and alert to the limited time remaining, to the earthshaking events soon to take place, and to the need to work out one"s salvation!"

Did the WatchTower mean FORTY-FIVE YEARS or more when it printed the words "immediate future"? Does the phrase "Within a few years at most" mean FORTY-FIVE OR MORE YEARS?

In AWAKE! magazine, May 22, 1969 page 15:

"If you are a young person, you need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. Therefore, as a young person, YOU WILL NEVER fulfil any career that this system offers."

What is the WatchTower definition of "growing old"? A person old enough to UNDERSTAND and READ that statement would presumable be at least 8 or 10 years told. Thus, he was born in about 1960. That same "young person" who would "never grow old" is now 53 YEARS OLD! Yet AWAKE! was telling him back in 1969 not to worry about any career because he'd never need it!

No, the WatchTower was smart enough (to be very generous) to NEVER commit in writing to 1975 - yet they constantly alluded to it. They raised expectations by insinuation. They cited prophesy, then review their "take" on world events, and implied that "only a few years" remain. Then the WATCHTOWER blamed the rank and file members for "reading too much" into the literally hundreds of statements in WATCHTOWER and AWAKE.

*****

MCB comes along and wishfully thinks: "They did also make the mistake of publishing a statement which, with all the troubles in Israel suggested it might be an appropriate time for Armageddon to happen, but they didn't state it as a fact, they were too surprised when it didn't."

Oh, they published a TON of statements, both in AWAKE! and WatchTower. It's always "just around the corner" with the WatchTower. Always. You say, "They are the first to acknowledge their mistakes." No, they aren't. The Baptist churches and the churches of Christ around here were acknowledging the WatchTower's mistakes while they were making them.

*****

MCB: "I repeat my previous statement, that I never cease to be amazed, at how little you understand."

Anna: Yeah, I don't know what this means:

"How many years are "a few years at most"?"only seven more years from the autumn of 1968 to complete 6,000 full years of human history. That seven-year period will evidently finish in the autumn of the year 1975."

Why don't you explain it for me? Or is that statement just another "mistake" from "God's mouthpiece"? Remember their "Adam and Eve" explanation? People laughed from coast-to-coast over that one!

That actually goes back to the reason that I asked you WHY you chose 606/607 BC as a starting point for anything. The correct date for the ransacking of Jerusalem by the Babylonians is 586-587 BC, yet the WatchTower continues it error.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
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7/21/2013 3:57:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/17/2013 10:36:41 AM, Naysayer wrote:
There are actually two kingdoms spoken of in the gospels: The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom, the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. The Bible says quite clearly that the Kingdom of God is within us. The Kingdom of Heaven is Christ's physical kingdom at the end of the church age and forever. It is Christ on the throne. There are nations and the people all serve Christ.

Except that both are actually the same.
ExsurgeDomine
Posts: 176
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7/21/2013 7:02:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/20/2013 7:34:01 PM, annanicole wrote:
"The fact that fifty-four years of the period called the "last days" have already gone by is highly significant. It means that only a few years, at most, remain before the corrupt system of things dominating the earth is destroyed by God. Today, many years later, we may ask, What does the phrase "the immediate future" mean? How many years are "a few years at most"?"only seven more years from the autumn of 1968 to complete 6,000 full years of human history. That seven-year period will evidently finish in the autumn of the year 1975."

Are the facts and conclusions from this AWAKE! article from FORTY-FIVE YEARS AGO correct or not?

Of course they are. You forgot that a day is as a thousand years with the Lord. They actually meant that it would finish in the year 2,558,968.
MadCornishBiker
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7/21/2013 7:45:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/17/2013 11:27:47 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 7/17/2013 10:42:04 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
I believe there isn't just one kingdom, it depends on the context.

John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

that has nothing to do with how many kingdoms there are. It is simply Jesus' way of saying there will be a place for all who are invited.

It is obviously a figurative statement because Jehovah doesn't have a house. However, the term house is sometimes used to mean family, as in "the house of David" and that may well be what Jesus is saying.
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
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7/21/2013 8:53:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Let's face it, there are 38,000 protestant religions who claim the name of christianity that they the church they protest against initiated and own. Poor little would be's.!!!!!
annanicole
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7/21/2013 9:42:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/21/2013 7:02:52 AM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 7/20/2013 7:34:01 PM, annanicole wrote:
"The fact that fifty-four years of the period called the "last days" have already gone by is highly significant. It means that only a few years, at most, remain before the corrupt system of things dominating the earth is destroyed by God. Today, many years later, we may ask, What does the phrase "the immediate future" mean? How many years are "a few years at most"?"only seven more years from the autumn of 1968 to complete 6,000 full years of human history. That seven-year period will evidently finish in the autumn of the year 1975."

Are the facts and conclusions from this AWAKE! article from FORTY-FIVE YEARS AGO correct or not?

Of course they are. You forgot that a day is as a thousand years with the Lord. They actually meant that it would finish in the year 2,558,968.

Yep. LOL
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
Posts: 19,791
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7/21/2013 9:43:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'll put this up again for good measure:

MCB: "If you understood Scripture you would understand that those phrases can mean any period of time that God chooses to let them mean."

Anna: Then they mean NOTHING - which is precisely what I said that you believe! And you were up in arms over it! I stand by the statements. According to your doctrine, the phrases "at hand", "nigh unto you", "shortly come to pass", etc. are absolutely meaningless! They are useless! They are of no import whatsoever! They simply mean whatever you say they mean - in order to "fit in".

MCB: "Only those who later became known as Jehovah's Witnesses have the humility and honesty to say to themselves, but the prophecy could not be wrong, because Scripture never is, therefore, their expectations must have been. And they went back to the drawing board, so to speak, to find out what they had missed."

Anna: I wouldn't call it "humility and honesty" - I'd say they merely tried to save face among their rapidly-deserting membership, and fabricated an "invisible coming". Christ "came" - but nobody saw it.

Do you know that I can take the WatchTower's OWN LITERATURE, and prove that 1914 cannot be correct? Anybody can! All one has to do is calculate the lengths of the reigns of the NeoBabylonian kings. Many have done so.

*****

MCB: "Incidentally, you asked who else understood 1914 to be what it is, and was. Where do you think the church, Seventh-day Adventists, got their name from? At one time they to believed in 1914"

Anna: I do not recall the Adventists advancing the claim that Jesus would return in 1914. Do you have some source that states such?

*****

MCB: "They did also make the mistake of publishing a statement which, with all the troubles in Israel suggested it might be an appropriate time for Armageddon to happen, but they didn't state it as a fact, they were too surprised when it didn't."

Anna: From the AWAKE! magazine, Oct 6, 1968, pp. 14-15, under an article entitled, "6,000 Years Nearing Completion"

"The fact that fifty-four years of the period called the "last days" have already gone by is highly significant. It means that only a few years, at most, remain before the corrupt system of things dominating the earth is destroyed by God. Today, many years later, we may ask, What does the phrase "the immediate future" mean? How many years are "a few years at most"?"only seven more years from the autumn of 1968 to complete 6,000 full years of human history. That seven-year period will evidently finish in the autumn of the year 1975."

Are the facts and conclusions from this AWAKE! article from FORTY-FIVE YEARS AGO correct or not?

From the WATCHTOWER magazine, May 1, 1968, pp.271-273, under the article "Making Wise Use of the Remaining Time"

The immediate future is certain to be filled with climactic events, for this old system is nearing its complete end. Within a few years at most the final parts of Bible prophecy relative to these "last days" will undergo fulfillment, resulting in the liberation of surviving mankind into Christ"s glorious 1,000-year reign. What difficult days, but, at the same time, what grand days are just ahead!

Does this mean that the year 1975 will bring the battle of Armageddon? No one can say with certainty what any particular year will bring. Jesus said: "Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows." (Mark 13:32) Sufficient is it for God"s servants to know for a certainty that, for this system under Satan, time is running out rapidly. How foolish a person would be not to be awake and alert to the limited time remaining, to the earthshaking events soon to take place, and to the need to work out one"s salvation!"

Did the WatchTower mean FORTY-FIVE YEARS or more when it printed the words "immediate future"? Does the phrase "Within a few years at most" mean FORTY-FIVE OR MORE YEARS?

In AWAKE! magazine, May 22, 1969 page 15:

"If you are a young person, you need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. Therefore, as a young person, YOU WILL NEVER fulfil any career that this system offers."

What is the WatchTower definition of "growing old"? A person old enough to UNDERSTAND and READ that statement would presumable be at least 8 or 10 years told. Thus, he was born in about 1960. That same "young person" who would "never grow old" is now 53 YEARS OLD! Yet AWAKE! was telling him back in 1969 not to worry about any career because he'd never need it!

No, the WatchTower was smart enough (to be very generous) to NEVER commit in writing to 1975 - yet they constantly alluded to it. They raised expectations by insinuation. They cited prophesy, then review their "take" on world events, and implied that "only a few years" remain. Then the WATCHTOWER blamed the rank and file members for "reading too much" into the literally hundreds of statements in WATCHTOWER and AWAKE.

*****

MCB comes along and wishfully thinks: "They did also make the mistake of publishing a statement which, with all the troubles in Israel suggested it might be an appropriate time for Armageddon to happen, but they didn't state it as a fact, they were too surprised when it didn't."

Oh, they published a TON of statements, both in AWAKE! and WatchTower. It's always "just around the corner" with the WatchTower. Always. You say, "They are the first to acknowledge their mistakes." No, they aren't. The Baptist churches and the churches of Christ around here were acknowledging the WatchTower's mistakes while they were making them.

*****

MCB: "I repeat my previous statement, that I never cease to be amazed, at how little you understand."

Anna: Yeah, I don't know what this means:

"How many years are "a few years at most"?"only seven more years from the autumn of 1968 to complete 6,000 full years of human history. That seven-year period will evidently finish in the autumn of the year 1975."

Why don't you explain it for me? Or is that statement just another "mistake" from "God's mouthpiece"? Remember their "Adam and Eve" explanation? People laughed from coast-to-coast over that one!

That actually goes back to the reason that I asked you WHY you chose 606/607 BC as a starting point for anything. The correct date for the ransacking of Jerusalem by the Babylonians is 586-587 BC, yet the WatchTower continues it error.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
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7/21/2013 10:05:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/21/2013 9:43:25 AM, annanicole wrote:
I'll put this up again for good measure:

MCB: "If you understood Scripture you would understand that those phrases can mean any period of time that God chooses to let them mean."

Anna: Then they mean NOTHING - which is precisely what I said that you believe! And you were up in arms over it! I stand by the statements. According to your doctrine, the phrases "at hand", "nigh unto you", "shortly come to pass", etc. are absolutely meaningless! They are useless! They are of no import whatsoever! They simply mean whatever you say they mean - in order to "fit in".

MCB: "Only those who later became known as Jehovah's Witnesses have the humility and honesty to say to themselves, but the prophecy could not be wrong, because Scripture never is, therefore, their expectations must have been. And they went back to the drawing board, so to speak, to find out what they had missed."

Anna: I wouldn't call it "humility and honesty" - I'd say they merely tried to save face among their rapidly-deserting membership, and fabricated an "invisible coming". Christ "came" - but nobody saw it.

Do you know that I can take the WatchTower's OWN LITERATURE, and prove that 1914 cannot be correct? Anybody can! All one has to do is calculate the lengths of the reigns of the NeoBabylonian kings. Many have done so.

*****

MCB: "Incidentally, you asked who else understood 1914 to be what it is, and was. Where do you think the church, Seventh-day Adventists, got their name from? At one time they to believed in 1914"

Anna: I do not recall the Adventists advancing the claim that Jesus would return in 1914. Do you have some source that states such?

*****

MCB: "They did also make the mistake of publishing a statement which, with all the troubles in Israel suggested it might be an appropriate time for Armageddon to happen, but they didn't state it as a fact, they were too surprised when it didn't."

Anna: From the AWAKE! magazine, Oct 6, 1968, pp. 14-15, under an article entitled, "6,000 Years Nearing Completion"

"The fact that fifty-four years of the period called the "last days" have already gone by is highly significant. It means that only a few years, at most, remain before the corrupt system of things dominating the earth is destroyed by God. Today, many years later, we may ask, What does the phrase "the immediate future" mean? How many years are "a few years at most"?"only seven more years from the autumn of 1968 to complete 6,000 full years of human history. That seven-year period will evidently finish in the autumn of the year 1975."

Are the facts and conclusions from this AWAKE! article from FORTY-FIVE YEARS AGO correct or not?

From the WATCHTOWER magazine, May 1, 1968, pp.271-273, under the article "Making Wise Use of the Remaining Time"

The immediate future is certain to be filled with climactic events, for this old system is nearing its complete end. Within a few years at most the final parts of Bible prophecy relative to these "last days" will undergo fulfillment, resulting in the liberation of surviving mankind into Christ"s glorious 1,000-year reign. What difficult days, but, at the same time, what grand days are just ahead!

Does this mean that the year 1975 will bring the battle of Armageddon? No one can say with certainty what any particular year will bring. Jesus said: "Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows." (Mark 13:32) Sufficient is it for God"s servants to know for a certainty that, for this system under Satan, time is running out rapidly. How foolish a person would be not to be awake and alert to the limited time remaining, to the earthshaking events soon to take place, and to the need to work out one"s salvation!"

Did the WatchTower mean FORTY-FIVE YEARS or more when it printed the words "immediate future"? Does the phrase "Within a few years at most" mean FORTY-FIVE OR MORE YEARS?

In AWAKE! magazine, May 22, 1969 page 15:

"If you are a young person, you need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. Therefore, as a young person, YOU WILL NEVER fulfil any career that this system offers."

What is the WatchTower definition of "growing old"? A person old enough to UNDERSTAND and READ that statement would presumable be at least 8 or 10 years told. Thus, he was born in about 1960. That same "young person" who would "never grow old" is now 53 YEARS OLD! Yet AWAKE! was telling him back in 1969 not to worry about any career because he'd never need it!

No, the WatchTower was smart enough (to be very generous) to NEVER commit in writing to 1975 - yet they constantly alluded to it. They raised expectations by insinuation. They cited prophesy, then review their "take" on world events, and implied that "only a few years" remain. Then the WATCHTOWER blamed the rank and file members for "reading too much" into the literally hundreds of statements in WATCHTOWER and AWAKE.

*****

MCB comes along and wishfully thinks: "They did also make the mistake of publishing a statement which, with all the troubles in Israel suggested it might be an appropriate time for Armageddon to happen, but they didn't state it as a fact, they were too surprised when it didn't."

Oh, they published a TON of statements, both in AWAKE! and WatchTower. It's always "just around the corner" with the WatchTower. Always. You say, "They are the first to acknowledge their mistakes." No, they aren't. The Baptist churches and the churches of Christ around here were acknowledging the WatchTower's mistakes while they were making them.

*****

MCB: "I repeat my previous statement, that I never cease to be amazed, at how little you understand."

Anna: Yeah, I don't know what this means:

"How many years are "a few years at most"?"only seven more years from the autumn of 1968 to complete 6,000 full years of human history. That seven-year period will evidently finish in the autumn of the year 1975."

Why don't you explain it for me? Or is that statement just another "mistake" from "God's mouthpiece"? Remember their "Adam and Eve" explanation? People laughed from coast-to-coast over that one!

That actually goes back to the reason that I asked you WHY you chose 606/607 BC as a starting point for anything. The correct date for the ransacking of Jerusalem by the Babylonians is 586-587 BC, yet the WatchTower continues it error.

Actually, that is not the correct date, because it disagrees with the date you get if you study Bible chronology. It's mankind's date not the real one. After all, it has been arrived at by unreliable methods, not by working it out from Scripture, which is much more accurate.

Have you stopped to think though, that even if you are right about that date, you are simply looking at 20 years difference, which actually makes it 1934, rather than 1914. Even if the calculations which so many people arrived at are in error. It actually makes your idea of the kingdom being established even less accurate than it currently is, and in the context of a total period of about 3000 years is not exactly a massive error.

However, if you can prove to me, using Scripture, that the date 607 is wrong, I might even listen despite the fact that I have checked out the original workings myself.

Just out of interest, since they arrive at 587, what data they have for Adams creation? Since that is one of the main starting points.
MadCornishBiker
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7/21/2013 10:16:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/21/2013 8:53:17 AM, bulproof wrote:
Let's face it, there are 38,000 protestant religions who claim the name of christianity that they the church they protest against initiated and own. Poor little would be's.!!!!!

yes, there are, and 37,999 are wrong.
MadCornishBiker
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7/21/2013 10:23:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/21/2013 7:02:52 AM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 7/20/2013 7:34:01 PM, annanicole wrote:
"The fact that fifty-four years of the period called the "last days" have already gone by is highly significant. It means that only a few years, at most, remain before the corrupt system of things dominating the earth is destroyed by God. Today, many years later, we may ask, What does the phrase "the immediate future" mean? How many years are "a few years at most"?"only seven more years from the autumn of 1968 to complete 6,000 full years of human history. That seven-year period will evidently finish in the autumn of the year 1975."

Are the facts and conclusions from this AWAKE! article from FORTY-FIVE YEARS AGO correct or not?

Of course they are. You forgot that a day is as a thousand years with the Lord. They actually meant that it would finish in the year 2,558,968.

no, they felt it was possible at the time because of the six days War, but unfortunately they got it wrong. However, they freely admit it, and that was 45 years ago.

What they said in the past is unimportant, because it is past and as Proverbs 4:18 says the light gets slowly brighter until the day is firmly established, and that day is far from firmly established yet, so there will still be more understandings to be revealed. That is the whole point of Proverbs 4:18.

It is those that do not grow as the light gets brighter, who lost, as that same Scripture goes on to say.
annanicole
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7/21/2013 10:24:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Anna: That actually goes back to the reason that I asked you WHY you chose 606/607 BC as a starting point for anything. The correct date for the ransacking of Jerusalem by the Babylonians is 586-587 BC, yet the WatchTower continues it error.

MCB: Actually, that is not the correct date, because it disagrees with the date you get if you study Bible chronology. It's mankind's date not the real one. After all, it has been arrived at by unreliable methods, not by working it out from Scripture, which is much more accurate.

Anna: You don't get ANY date from so-called "Bible chronology" for this simple reason: prophetic times are often approximate, as is the case with the 70 weeks of Daniel.

However, as you know, one can calculate the date very easily from the WatchTower's own materials by calculating the reigns and ages of Babylonian monarchs.

By the way, you didn't explain the statements in AWAKE! and WatchTower. I suppose you won't. Can you imagine telling some little kid in 1969 not to worry about a career because of your own views of some "prophesy"? That's what they did, apparently.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."