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Did the Abrahamic God give people free will?

Bannanawamajama
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7/24/2013 12:53:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
So alot of people have asserted their main problem with Christianity Islam or Judaism is the fact that theres an Omnipotent Benevolent god that still allowed Evil to form under his watch. The counter to this is that God needs to allow Evil to maintain free will, because we have to have the choice to do bad, and Free Will is more important than absolute good.

However, in the Garden of Eden part of the Bible, the fruit of the tree of Eden was supposed to contain the "Knowledge of Good and Evil". Adam and Eve did not themselves choose to take the apple, rather they were told to by the Snake, and having no agency of their own at the time, they did whatever they were told without considering the implications, because they did not have the capacity to realize it was wrong yet.

So it seems from reading this, by looking at how their behaviour changes after eating the fruit, that the Knowledge of Good and Evil gave humanity the capacity to make judgements on their actions and feel a sense of shame. It seems like eating the fruit was what gave them Free Will, because without knowledge of right and wrong, humans would either have to not make decisions at all and just do what they were told, or make decisions by pure basic logic, which wouldn't be "free" because it would be deterministic.

However, God was unhappy that Adam and Eve had gotten the power to tell right from wrong, because that was his power. He even likens it to the power of immortality they could have gotten from the other tree in the garden, and he kicks them out of Eden so that they won't be able to eat anymore God-Fruit. So if the Abrahamic God is so insistent on keeping humanity away from these powers, doesn't that mean that he opposes Humanity having free will?
Fruitytree
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7/25/2013 7:20:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/24/2013 12:53:20 PM, Bannanawamajama wrote:
So alot of people have asserted their main problem with Christianity Islam or Judaism is the fact that theres an Omnipotent Benevolent god that still allowed Evil to form under his watch. The counter to this is that God needs to allow Evil to maintain free will, because we have to have the choice to do bad, and Free Will is more important than absolute good.

However, in the Garden of Eden part of the Bible, the fruit of the tree of Eden was supposed to contain the "Knowledge of Good and Evil". Adam and Eve did not themselves choose to take the apple, rather they were told to by the Snake, and having no agency of their own at the time, they did whatever they were told without considering the implications, because they did not have the capacity to realize it was wrong yet.

So it seems from reading this, by looking at how their behaviour changes after eating the fruit, that the Knowledge of Good and Evil gave humanity the capacity to make judgements on their actions and feel a sense of shame. It seems like eating the fruit was what gave them Free Will, because without knowledge of right and wrong, humans would either have to not make decisions at all and just do what they were told, or make decisions by pure basic logic, which wouldn't be "free" because it would be deterministic.

However, God was unhappy that Adam and Eve had gotten the power to tell right from wrong, because that was his power. He even likens it to the power of immortality they could have gotten from the other tree in the garden, and he kicks them out of Eden so that they won't be able to eat anymore God-Fruit. So if the Abrahamic God is so insistent on keeping humanity away from these powers, doesn't that mean that he opposes Humanity having free will?

The other fruit is the fruit of life, eating is would have made them eternal again.

The way you interprete the verses is wrong, you imagine that free will came from eating the fruit of knowledge, and this is false, Adam was created with the free will, this is why God commanded him and his wife not to eat the fruit of knowledge, because it was possible that he disobey .

And he did when his wife gave him the fruit , influenced by the voice of satan, they were not under the power of Satan, they had to choose to disobey, it was for them either obey God, or listen to the interesting and exciting suggestion of the snake, which they did. the snake had no power over them, he only made a suggestion, his goal being that they disobey God, for Satan hate Adam after God made Adam superior to him.

So free will was there from the beginning.

The new feature after eating the fruit of knowledge is Morality.

People unlike animals have a sense of Morality, and people like animals have free will.

Morality being the knowledge of good and evil.

You don't give a command to someone who has no free will!
TULIP
Posts: 398
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7/25/2013 9:02:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/24/2013 12:53:20 PM, Bannanawamajama wrote:
So alot of people have asserted their main problem with Christianity Islam or Judaism is the fact that theres an Omnipotent Benevolent god that still allowed Evil to form under his watch. The counter to this is that God needs to allow Evil to maintain free will, because we have to have the choice to do bad, and Free Will is more important than absolute good.

However, in the Garden of Eden part of the Bible, the fruit of the tree of Eden was supposed to contain the "Knowledge of Good and Evil". Adam and Eve did not themselves choose to take the apple, rather they were told to by the Snake, and having no agency of their own at the time, they did whatever they were told without considering the implications, because they did not have the capacity to realize it was wrong yet.

So it seems from reading this, by looking at how their behaviour changes after eating the fruit, that the Knowledge of Good and Evil gave humanity the capacity to make judgements on their actions and feel a sense of shame. It seems like eating the fruit was what gave them Free Will, because without knowledge of right and wrong, humans would either have to not make decisions at all and just do what they were told, or make decisions by pure basic logic, which wouldn't be "free" because it would be deterministic.

However, God was unhappy that Adam and Eve had gotten the power to tell right from wrong, because that was his power. He even likens it to the power of immortality they could have gotten from the other tree in the garden, and he kicks them out of Eden so that they won't be able to eat anymore God-Fruit. So if the Abrahamic God is so insistent on keeping humanity away from these powers, doesn't that mean that he opposes Humanity having free will?

First, the Bible doesn't say that Adam and Eve ate an apple. It only says that they are of the fruit which God commanded them not to eat.
Secondly, let me answer your topic question with a question,... If you had, say idk a billion dollars in your bank account ... Someone decides to steal all of it and you find out Who the person is.. Your telling me you wouldn't wanna do anything about?!
My point in the analogical question was to show that you have a mind and you decide what to do all on your own without someone telling what to do right.. But even if someone did tell you what to do, you still have a choice to make.. Adam and Eve had a choice as well and they chose rebellion to God which was the original sin of mans fall. It wasnt that they ate the fruit that caused them to fall it was their willful disobedience to God that caused them to fall.. Third, yes, God has given us the free will to either to choose to obey or disobey Him.. We are not robots .. Or are we? Because I know I make my own decisions and no one forces me to make them. I have a conscience a heart and know right from wrong..
Conclusion, instead of pointing fingers, why not man up to ones own responsibilities in their wrong or right choices? ... Just saying...
"We conclude that our salvation is of The Lord. He is the One who regenerates us. Those whom He regenerates come to Christ. Without regeneration no one will ever come to Christ. With regeneration no one will ever reject Him. God's saving grace effects what He intends to effect by it. ~ R. C. Sproul
AlbinoBunny
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7/25/2013 12:27:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/24/2013 12:53:20 PM, Bannanawamajama wrote:
without knowledge of right and wrong, humans would either have to not make decisions at all and just do what they were told, or make decisions by pure basic logic, which wouldn't be "free" because it would be deterministic.

So what do you classify as "free"?
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bornofgod
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7/25/2013 4:09:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/24/2013 12:53:20 PM, Bannanawamajama wrote:
So alot of people have asserted their main problem with Christianity Islam or Judaism is the fact that theres an Omnipotent Benevolent god that still allowed Evil to form under his watch. The counter to this is that God needs to allow Evil to maintain free will, because we have to have the choice to do bad, and Free Will is more important than absolute good.

However, in the Garden of Eden part of the Bible, the fruit of the tree of Eden was supposed to contain the "Knowledge of Good and Evil". Adam and Eve did not themselves choose to take the apple, rather they were told to by the Snake, and having no agency of their own at the time, they did whatever they were told without considering the implications, because they did not have the capacity to realize it was wrong yet.

So it seems from reading this, by looking at how their behaviour changes after eating the fruit, that the Knowledge of Good and Evil gave humanity the capacity to make judgements on their actions and feel a sense of shame. It seems like eating the fruit was what gave them Free Will, because without knowledge of right and wrong, humans would either have to not make decisions at all and just do what they were told, or make decisions by pure basic logic, which wouldn't be "free" because it would be deterministic.

However, God was unhappy that Adam and Eve had gotten the power to tell right from wrong, because that was his power. He even likens it to the power of immortality they could have gotten from the other tree in the garden, and he kicks them out of Eden so that they won't be able to eat anymore God-Fruit. So if the Abrahamic God is so insistent on keeping humanity away from these powers, doesn't that mean that he opposes Humanity having free will?

God is the Creator of all things, not just good. Even man's thoughts he created.

Amos 4
13: For lo, he who forms the mountains, and creates the wind, and declares to man what is his thought;

Isaiah 45
7: I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the Lord, who do all these things.

Deuteronomy 32
39: "`See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Exodus 4:
10: But Moses said to the LORD, "Oh, my Lord, I am not eloquent, either heretofore or since thou hast spoken to thy servant; but I am slow of speech and of tongue."
11: Then the LORD said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him dumb, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?
12: Now therefore go, and I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall speak."
Bannanawamajama
Posts: 125
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7/25/2013 9:20:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
What I'm saying is, if we originally couldn't differentiate between right and wrong, how could we have been held accountable for our actions? When a baby knocks down an expensive vase from a table or something, you don't get mad at the mistake because its a baby that doesn't realize the implications of its misdeed. Yes Adam disobeyed God, but why wouldn't he? If he didn't understand what wrong was, he couldn't have known that what he was doing was wrong. God told him not to eat the fruit, but then Eve did. Neither command was superior to the other, because he didn't realize his actions could possibly be negative. Same with Eve. If the Snake tells her to do something, she'll do it because why wouldn't you if someone asks? How can you tell you're being led astray if you can't conceive of any action as being something you shouldn't do?

TULIP mentioned that he/she has a conscience and knows right from wrong so no one controls his/her actions. But Adam and Eve didn't have that, they had nothing to tell them that what the Snake advised was "bad". Without the knowledge of Good and Evil, we would automatically choose Evil because that's the logical choice. Stealing is a reasonable thing to do if you don't know what morality is, because for you its just a choice between eating or not eating. You don't understand the concept that you're making someone else suffer and thats bad. Doing Good is all about resisting the temptation to take the easy route in lieu of doing what is right. If we didn't understand the distinction, you would do what logically seems the most beneficial to you at the time, unless you are told not to. Yes Adam disobeyed God, but he was obeying Eve. With no "bad" there's no "worse", so he couldn't know that obeying God was more important than obeying Eve and the Snake. He would just go with whatever was more recent.

Without a conflict between whats good for YOU and whats GOOD by an ultimate standard, there'd never be a question of your choice, the choice would be obvious every time. Thats what I mean by deterministic. So if God initially created Adam without the ability to discern Good, he obviously intended mankind not to either. Without that, we wouldn't be able to make a choice based on morality because we couldn't decide which option is the better one in accordance with Gods Will. So doesn't that mean that initially God didn't want us to make those choices, he wanted us to live by his commands alone?
bulproof
Posts: 25,209
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7/26/2013 1:24:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/25/2013 9:20:33 PM, Bannanawamajama wrote:
What I'm saying is, if we originally couldn't differentiate between right and wrong, how could we have been held accountable for our actions? When a baby knocks down an expensive vase from a table or something, you don't get mad at the mistake because its a baby that doesn't realize the implications of its misdeed. Yes Adam disobeyed God, but why wouldn't he? If he didn't understand what wrong was, he couldn't have known that what he was doing was wrong. God told him not to eat the fruit, but then Eve did. Neither command was superior to the other, because he didn't realize his actions could possibly be negative. Same with Eve. If the Snake tells her to do something, she'll do it because why wouldn't you if someone asks? How can you tell you're being led astray if you can't conceive of any action as being something you shouldn't do?

TULIP mentioned that he/she has a conscience and knows right from wrong so no one controls his/her actions. But Adam and Eve didn't have that, they had nothing to tell them that what the Snake advised was "bad". Without the knowledge of Good and Evil, we would automatically choose Evil because that's the logical choice. Stealing is a reasonable thing to do if you don't know what morality is, because for you its just a choice between eating or not eating. You don't understand the concept that you're making someone else suffer and thats bad. Doing Good is all about resisting the temptation to take the easy route in lieu of doing what is right. If we didn't understand the distinction, you would do what logically seems the most beneficial to you at the time, unless you are told not to. Yes Adam disobeyed God, but he was obeying Eve. With no "bad" there's no "worse", so he couldn't know that obeying God was more important than obeying Eve and the Snake. He would just go with whatever was more recent.

Without a conflict between whats good for YOU and whats GOOD by an ultimate standard, there'd never be a question of your choice, the choice would be obvious every time. Thats what I mean by deterministic. So if God initially created Adam without the ability to discern Good, he obviously intended mankind not to either. Without that, we wouldn't be able to make a choice based on morality because we couldn't decide which option is the better one in accordance with Gods Will. So doesn't that mean that initially God didn't want us to make those choices, he wanted us to live by his commands alone?

I've been making this argument for decades and the godly never ever get it. We aren't born obedient or disobedient we must learn the difference. Not a very smart god is the only conclusion one can come too.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
TULIP
Posts: 398
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7/26/2013 3:11:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/25/2013 9:20:33 PM, Bannanawamajama wrote:
What I'm saying is, if we originally couldn't differentiate between right and wrong, how could we have been held accountable for our actions? When a baby knocks down an expensive vase from a table or something, you don't get mad at the mistake because its a baby that doesn't realize the implications of its misdeed. Yes Adam disobeyed God, but why wouldn't he? If he didn't understand what wrong was, he couldn't have known that what he was doing was wrong. God told him not to eat the fruit, but then Eve did. Neither command was superior to the other, because he didn't realize his actions could possibly be negative. Same with Eve. If the Snake tells her to do something, she'll do it because why wouldn't you if someone asks? How can you tell you're being led astray if you can't conceive of any action as being something you shouldn't do?

TULIP mentioned that he/she has a conscience and knows right from wrong so no one controls his/her actions. But Adam and Eve didn't have that, they had nothing to tell them that what the Snake advised was "bad". Without the knowledge of Good and Evil, we would automatically choose Evil because that's the logical choice. Stealing is a reasonable thing to do if you don't know what morality is, because for you its just a choice between eating or not eating. You don't understand the concept that you're making someone else suffer and thats bad. Doing Good is all about resisting the temptation to take the easy route in lieu of doing what is right. If we didn't understand the distinction, you would do what logically seems the most beneficial to you at the time, unless you are told not to. Yes Adam disobeyed God, but he was obeying Eve. With no "bad" there's no "worse", so he couldn't know that obeying God was more important than obeying Eve and the Snake. He would just go with whatever was more recent.

Without a conflict between whats good for YOU and whats GOOD by an ultimate standard, there'd never be a question of your choice, the choice would be obvious every time. Thats what I mean by deterministic. So if God initially created Adam without the ability to discern Good, he obviously intended mankind not to either. Without that, we wouldn't be able to make a choice based on morality because we couldn't decide which option is the better one in accordance with Gods Will. So doesn't that mean that initially God didn't want us to make those choices, he wanted us to live by his commands alone?

I know what your saying, but like I said earlier it wasn't that they ate the fruit that caused the fall of man. It was their willfulness to neglect what God said and disobey Him because of their own desires. That is called the original sin. It was the sin of the sin. Obviously Gods plans are still at work even through the negative things that go on in this filthy world. Otherwise we'd be in the garden now wouldn't we? ...
"We conclude that our salvation is of The Lord. He is the One who regenerates us. Those whom He regenerates come to Christ. Without regeneration no one will ever come to Christ. With regeneration no one will ever reject Him. God's saving grace effects what He intends to effect by it. ~ R. C. Sproul
bulproof
Posts: 25,209
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7/26/2013 4:33:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/26/2013 3:11:47 AM, TULIP wrote:
At 7/25/2013 9:20:33 PM, Bannanawamajama wrote:
What I'm saying is, if we originally couldn't differentiate between right and wrong, how could we have been held accountable for our actions? When a baby knocks down an expensive vase from a table or something, you don't get mad at the mistake because its a baby that doesn't realize the implications of its misdeed. Yes Adam disobeyed God, but why wouldn't he? If he didn't understand what wrong was, he couldn't have known that what he was doing was wrong. God told him not to eat the fruit, but then Eve did. Neither command was superior to the other, because he didn't realize his actions could possibly be negative. Same with Eve. If the Snake tells her to do something, she'll do it because why wouldn't you if someone asks? How can you tell you're being led astray if you can't conceive of any action as being something you shouldn't do?

TULIP mentioned that he/she has a conscience and knows right from wrong so no one controls his/her actions. But Adam and Eve didn't have that, they had nothing to tell them that what the Snake advised was "bad". Without the knowledge of Good and Evil, we would automatically choose Evil because that's the logical choice. Stealing is a reasonable thing to do if you don't know what morality is, because for you its just a choice between eating or not eating. You don't understand the concept that you're making someone else suffer and thats bad. Doing Good is all about resisting the temptation to take the easy route in lieu of doing what is right. If we didn't understand the distinction, you would do what logically seems the most beneficial to you at the time, unless you are told not to. Yes Adam disobeyed God, but he was obeying Eve. With no "bad" there's no "worse", so he couldn't know that obeying God was more important than obeying Eve and the Snake. He would just go with whatever was more recent.

Without a conflict between whats good for YOU and whats GOOD by an ultimate standard, there'd never be a question of your choice, the choice would be obvious every time. Thats what I mean by deterministic. So if God initially created Adam without the ability to discern Good, he obviously intended mankind not to either. Without that, we wouldn't be able to make a choice based on morality because we couldn't decide which option is the better one in accordance with Gods Will. So doesn't that mean that initially God didn't want us to make those choices, he wanted us to live by his commands alone?

I know what your saying, but like I said earlier it wasn't that they ate the fruit that caused the fall of man. It was their willfulness to neglect what God said and disobey Him because of their own desires. That is called the original sin. It was the sin of the sin. Obviously Gods plans are still at work even through the negative things that go on in this filthy world. Otherwise we'd be in the garden now wouldn't we? ...

Once again the godly can't understand that to be obedient one must be taught. The god of stupidity didn't do that and then punished everyone else for it's mistake.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bulproof
Posts: 25,209
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7/26/2013 4:41:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/26/2013 4:33:50 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
bulproof have you ever made even a dent in anyone's religious beliefs? JW.
Who cares?
I've never improved the intelligence of a village idiot either.
Oh well.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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7/26/2013 6:09:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/25/2013 9:20:33 PM, Bannanawamajama wrote:
What I'm saying is, if we originally couldn't differentiate between right and wrong, how could we have been held accountable for our actions? When a baby knocks down an expensive vase from a table or something, you don't get mad at the mistake because its a baby that doesn't realize the implications of its misdeed. Yes Adam disobeyed God, but why wouldn't he? If he didn't understand what wrong was, he couldn't have known that what he was doing was wrong. God told him not to eat the fruit, but then Eve did. Neither command was superior to the other, because he didn't realize his actions could possibly be negative. Same with Eve. If the Snake tells her to do something, she'll do it because why wouldn't you if someone asks? How can you tell you're being led astray if you can't conceive of any action as being something you shouldn't do?

We aren't accountable because of Morality, we are accountable because of free will, that's why God made Adam accountable for having disobeyed, because he was able to obey. and eating from that tree isn't immoral, but it still counted as a sin.
bulproof
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7/26/2013 6:12:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/26/2013 6:09:18 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/25/2013 9:20:33 PM, Bannanawamajama wrote:
What I'm saying is, if we originally couldn't differentiate between right and wrong, how could we have been held accountable for our actions? When a baby knocks down an expensive vase from a table or something, you don't get mad at the mistake because its a baby that doesn't realize the implications of its misdeed. Yes Adam disobeyed God, but why wouldn't he? If he didn't understand what wrong was, he couldn't have known that what he was doing was wrong. God told him not to eat the fruit, but then Eve did. Neither command was superior to the other, because he didn't realize his actions could possibly be negative. Same with Eve. If the Snake tells her to do something, she'll do it because why wouldn't you if someone asks? How can you tell you're being led astray if you can't conceive of any action as being something you shouldn't do?

We aren't accountable because of Morality, we are accountable because of free will, that's why God made Adam accountable for having disobeyed, because he was able to obey. and eating from that tree isn't immoral, but it still counted as a sin.
We are TAUGHT obedience. It doesn't come built in. Get a grip
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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7/26/2013 7:51:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/26/2013 6:12:45 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/26/2013 6:09:18 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/25/2013 9:20:33 PM, Bannanawamajama wrote:
What I'm saying is, if we originally couldn't differentiate between right and wrong, how could we have been held accountable for our actions? When a baby knocks down an expensive vase from a table or something, you don't get mad at the mistake because its a baby that doesn't realize the implications of its misdeed. Yes Adam disobeyed God, but why wouldn't he? If he didn't understand what wrong was, he couldn't have known that what he was doing was wrong. God told him not to eat the fruit, but then Eve did. Neither command was superior to the other, because he didn't realize his actions could possibly be negative. Same with Eve. If the Snake tells her to do something, she'll do it because why wouldn't you if someone asks? How can you tell you're being led astray if you can't conceive of any action as being something you shouldn't do?

We aren't accountable because of Morality, we are accountable because of free will, that's why God made Adam accountable for having disobeyed, because he was able to obey. and eating from that tree isn't immoral, but it still counted as a sin.
We are TAUGHT obedience. It doesn't come built in. Get a grip

Taught or not, it's a choice we make, speaking here about free will.You can know how to do something and still not do it !
Fruitytree
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7/26/2013 7:55:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/26/2013 4:43:50 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
I will convert a muslim one day.

There is no chance you'd convert a learned Muslim, only one that doesn't know what Islam is about.

This is because Islam is built upon something solid, and your faith that you told me isn't built on anything except cool opinions.
bulproof
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7/26/2013 8:28:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/26/2013 7:51:50 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/26/2013 6:12:45 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/26/2013 6:09:18 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/25/2013 9:20:33 PM, Bannanawamajama wrote:
What I'm saying is, if we originally couldn't differentiate between right and wrong, how could we have been held accountable for our actions? When a baby knocks down an expensive vase from a table or something, you don't get mad at the mistake because its a baby that doesn't realize the implications of its misdeed. Yes Adam disobeyed God, but why wouldn't he? If he didn't understand what wrong was, he couldn't have known that what he was doing was wrong. God told him not to eat the fruit, but then Eve did. Neither command was superior to the other, because he didn't realize his actions could possibly be negative. Same with Eve. If the Snake tells her to do something, she'll do it because why wouldn't you if someone asks? How can you tell you're being led astray if you can't conceive of any action as being something you shouldn't do?

We aren't accountable because of Morality, we are accountable because of free will, that's why God made Adam accountable for having disobeyed, because he was able to obey. and eating from that tree isn't immoral, but it still counted as a sin.
We are TAUGHT obedience. It doesn't come built in. Get a grip

Taught or not, it's a choice we make, speaking here about free will.You can know how to do something and still not do it !

Fruity, you have children. Yes?
Have you had to teach your children about obedience or did they come out of your womb understanding that concept?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
TULIP
Posts: 398
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7/26/2013 10:25:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/26/2013 4:33:01 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/26/2013 3:11:47 AM, TULIP wrote:
At 7/25/2013 9:20:33 PM, Bannanawamajama wrote:
What I'm saying is, if we originally couldn't differentiate between right and wrong, how could we have been held accountable for our actions? When a baby knocks down an expensive vase from a table or something, you don't get mad at the mistake because its a baby that doesn't realize the implications of its misdeed. Yes Adam disobeyed God, but why wouldn't he? If he didn't understand what wrong was, he couldn't have known that what he was doing was wrong. God told him not to eat the fruit, but then Eve did. Neither command was superior to the other, because he didn't realize his actions could possibly be negative. Same with Eve. If the Snake tells her to do something, she'll do it because why wouldn't you if someone asks? How can you tell you're being led astray if you can't conceive of any action as being something you shouldn't do?

TULIP mentioned that he/she has a conscience and knows right from wrong so no one controls his/her actions. But Adam and Eve didn't have that, they had nothing to tell them that what the Snake advised was "bad". Without the knowledge of Good and Evil, we would automatically choose Evil because that's the logical choice. Stealing is a reasonable thing to do if you don't know what morality is, because for you its just a choice between eating or not eating. You don't understand the concept that you're making someone else suffer and thats bad. Doing Good is all about resisting the temptation to take the easy route in lieu of doing what is right. If we didn't understand the distinction, you would do what logically seems the most beneficial to you at the time, unless you are told not to. Yes Adam disobeyed God, but he was obeying Eve. With no "bad" there's no "worse", so he couldn't know that obeying God was more important than obeying Eve and the Snake. He would just go with whatever was more recent.

Without a conflict between whats good for YOU and whats GOOD by an ultimate standard, there'd never be a question of your choice, the choice would be obvious every time. Thats what I mean by deterministic. So if God initially created Adam without the ability to discern Good, he obviously intended mankind not to either. Without that, we wouldn't be able to make a choice based on morality because we couldn't decide which option is the better one in accordance with Gods Will. So doesn't that mean that initially God didn't want us to make those choices, he wanted us to live by his commands alone?

I know what your saying, but like I said earlier it wasn't that they ate the fruit that caused the fall of man. It was their willfulness to neglect what God said and disobey Him because of their own desires. That is called the original sin. It was the sin of the sin. Obviously Gods plans are still at work even through the negative things that go on in this filthy world. Otherwise we'd be in the garden now wouldn't we? ...

Once again the godly can't understand that to be obedient one must be taught. The god of stupidity didn't do that and then punished everyone else for it's mistake.

You have a conscience and a heart right.. You sin on a daily basis don't you like everyone else (self included) ... So that would mean you make those choices just as much as anyone else to do wrong (willfully).. It doesn't matter if you were taught or not the point of the matter is you have a brain and a heart and are very capable of knowing all on your own whether you should make a bad choice or not.. So quit trying to make loop holes for yourself by blaming someone else for people's own mistakes.. That's weak.. Man up.. Just saying..
"We conclude that our salvation is of The Lord. He is the One who regenerates us. Those whom He regenerates come to Christ. Without regeneration no one will ever come to Christ. With regeneration no one will ever reject Him. God's saving grace effects what He intends to effect by it. ~ R. C. Sproul
bulproof
Posts: 25,209
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7/26/2013 10:43:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/26/2013 10:25:28 AM, TULIP wrote:
At 7/26/2013 4:33:01 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/26/2013 3:11:47 AM, TULIP wrote:
At 7/25/2013 9:20:33 PM, Bannanawamajama wrote:
What I'm saying is, if we originally couldn't differentiate between right and wrong, how could we have been held accountable for our actions? When a baby knocks down an expensive vase from a table or something, you don't get mad at the mistake because its a baby that doesn't realize the implications of its misdeed. Yes Adam disobeyed God, but why wouldn't he? If he didn't understand what wrong was, he couldn't have known that what he was doing was wrong. God told him not to eat the fruit, but then Eve did. Neither command was superior to the other, because he didn't realize his actions could possibly be negative. Same with Eve. If the Snake tells her to do something, she'll do it because why wouldn't you if someone asks? How can you tell you're being led astray if you can't conceive of any action as being something you shouldn't do?

TULIP mentioned that he/she has a conscience and knows right from wrong so no one controls his/her actions. But Adam and Eve didn't have that, they had nothing to tell them that what the Snake advised was "bad". Without the knowledge of Good and Evil, we would automatically choose Evil because that's the logical choice. Stealing is a reasonable thing to do if you don't know what morality is, because for you its just a choice between eating or not eating. You don't understand the concept that you're making someone else suffer and thats bad. Doing Good is all about resisting the temptation to take the easy route in lieu of doing what is right. If we didn't understand the distinction, you would do what logically seems the most beneficial to you at the time, unless you are told not to. Yes Adam disobeyed God, but he was obeying Eve. With no "bad" there's no "worse", so he couldn't know that obeying God was more important than obeying Eve and the Snake. He would just go with whatever was more recent.

Without a conflict between whats good for YOU and whats GOOD by an ultimate standard, there'd never be a question of your choice, the choice would be obvious every time. Thats what I mean by deterministic. So if God initially created Adam without the ability to discern Good, he obviously intended mankind not to either. Without that, we wouldn't be able to make a choice based on morality because we couldn't decide which option is the better one in accordance with Gods Will. So doesn't that mean that initially God didn't want us to make those choices, he wanted us to live by his commands alone?

I know what your saying, but like I said earlier it wasn't that they ate the fruit that caused the fall of man. It was their willfulness to neglect what God said and disobey Him because of their own desires. That is called the original sin. It was the sin of the sin. Obviously Gods plans are still at work even through the negative things that go on in this filthy world. Otherwise we'd be in the garden now wouldn't we? ...

Once again the godly can't understand that to be obedient one must be taught. The god of stupidity didn't do that and then punished everyone else for it's mistake.

You have a conscience and a heart right.. You sin on a daily basis don't you like everyone else (self included) ... So that would mean you make those choices just as much as anyone else to do wrong (willfully).. It doesn't matter if you were taught or not the point of the matter is you have a brain and a heart and are very capable of knowing all on your own whether you should make a bad choice or not.. So quit trying to make loop holes for yourself by blaming someone else for people's own mistakes.. That's weak.. Man up.. Just saying..
Oh please deary.
HOW do YOU know what is right and what is wrong? Does a 2yr old know the difference? How does the 2yr old know the difference. The religious somehow think that nit is intrinsic and yet spend a lifetime indoctrinating their offspring. Talk about stupid.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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7/26/2013 10:49:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/26/2013 8:28:34 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/26/2013 7:51:50 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/26/2013 6:12:45 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/26/2013 6:09:18 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/25/2013 9:20:33 PM, Bannanawamajama wrote:
What I'm saying is, if we originally couldn't differentiate between right and wrong, how could we have been held accountable for our actions? When a baby knocks down an expensive vase from a table or something, you don't get mad at the mistake because its a baby that doesn't realize the implications of its misdeed. Yes Adam disobeyed God, but why wouldn't he? If he didn't understand what wrong was, he couldn't have known that what he was doing was wrong. God told him not to eat the fruit, but then Eve did. Neither command was superior to the other, because he didn't realize his actions could possibly be negative. Same with Eve. If the Snake tells her to do something, she'll do it because why wouldn't you if someone asks? How can you tell you're being led astray if you can't conceive of any action as being something you shouldn't do?

We aren't accountable because of Morality, we are accountable because of free will, that's why God made Adam accountable for having disobeyed, because he was able to obey. and eating from that tree isn't immoral, but it still counted as a sin.
We are TAUGHT obedience. It doesn't come built in. Get a grip

Taught or not, it's a choice we make, speaking here about free will.You can know how to do something and still not do it !

Fruity, you have children. Yes?
Have you had to teach your children about obedience or did they come out of your womb understanding that concept?

I taught and still teach and I am aware they will always disobey, but I do punish them if I judge the disobedience to be enough significant.Teaching them obedience doesn't make them obedient, their will is what matters.
bulproof
Posts: 25,209
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7/26/2013 10:57:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/26/2013 10:49:34 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/26/2013 8:28:34 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/26/2013 7:51:50 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/26/2013 6:12:45 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/26/2013 6:09:18 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/25/2013 9:20:33 PM, Bannanawamajama wrote:
What I'm saying is, if we originally couldn't differentiate between right and wrong, how could we have been held accountable for our actions? When a baby knocks down an expensive vase from a table or something, you don't get mad at the mistake because its a baby that doesn't realize the implications of its misdeed. Yes Adam disobeyed God, but why wouldn't he? If he didn't understand what wrong was, he couldn't have known that what he was doing was wrong. God told him not to eat the fruit, but then Eve did. Neither command was superior to the other, because he didn't realize his actions could possibly be negative. Same with Eve. If the Snake tells her to do something, she'll do it because why wouldn't you if someone asks? How can you tell you're being led astray if you can't conceive of any action as being something you shouldn't do?

We aren't accountable because of Morality, we are accountable because of free will, that's why God made Adam accountable for having disobeyed, because he was able to obey. and eating from that tree isn't immoral, but it still counted as a sin.
We are TAUGHT obedience. It doesn't come built in. Get a grip

Taught or not, it's a choice we make, speaking here about free will.You can know how to do something and still not do it !

Fruity, you have children. Yes?
Have you had to teach your children about obedience or did they come out of your womb understanding that concept?

I taught and still teach and I am aware they will always disobey, but I do punish them if I judge the disobedience to be enough significant.Teaching them obedience doesn't make them obedient, their will is what matters.
So your children learn to obey? Yes? It doesn't come naturally to them? Yes? YOU must TEACH them to obey? Yes?
If YOU had not taught YOUR child to obey you and she ran onto the road and was killed by a car, would that be your fault? Remember YOU HAVEN'T TAUGHT HER to OBEY YOU? Is it your fault? Or hers?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Bannanawamajama
Posts: 125
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7/26/2013 5:53:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Alright, but then he's punishing us for making a choice without context. The choice Adam made wasn't bad because Bad wasn't a thing to him yet, so doesn't that still mean God doesn't think Free Will is a good thing? If he got mad at exercising any choice at all?
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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7/26/2013 6:16:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/26/2013 10:57:20 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/26/2013 10:49:34 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/26/2013 8:28:34 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/26/2013 7:51:50 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/26/2013 6:12:45 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/26/2013 6:09:18 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/25/2013 9:20:33 PM, Bannanawamajama wrote:
What I'm saying is, if we originally couldn't differentiate between right and wrong, how could we have been held accountable for our actions? When a baby knocks down an expensive vase from a table or something, you don't get mad at the mistake because its a baby that doesn't realize the implications of its misdeed. Yes Adam disobeyed God, but why wouldn't he? If he didn't understand what wrong was, he couldn't have known that what he was doing was wrong. God told him not to eat the fruit, but then Eve did. Neither command was superior to the other, because he didn't realize his actions could possibly be negative. Same with Eve. If the Snake tells her to do something, she'll do it because why wouldn't you if someone asks? How can you tell you're being led astray if you can't conceive of any action as being something you shouldn't do?

We aren't accountable because of Morality, we are accountable because of free will, that's why God made Adam accountable for having disobeyed, because he was able to obey. and eating from that tree isn't immoral, but it still counted as a sin.
We are TAUGHT obedience. It doesn't come built in. Get a grip

Taught or not, it's a choice we make, speaking here about free will.You can know how to do something and still not do it !

Fruity, you have children. Yes?
Have you had to teach your children about obedience or did they come out of your womb understanding that concept?

I taught and still teach and I am aware they will always disobey, but I do punish them if I judge the disobedience to be enough significant.Teaching them obedience doesn't make them obedient, their will is what matters.
So your children learn to obey? Yes? It doesn't come naturally to them? Yes? YOU must TEACH them to obey? Yes?
If YOU had not taught YOUR child to obey you and she ran onto the road and was killed by a car, would that be your fault? Remember YOU HAVEN'T TAUGHT HER to OBEY YOU? Is it your fault? Or hers?

Well obey is basically keeping commands, you seem to think once you teach someone that he has to obey, he would obey like a robot ?! do you know this is impossible given the free will ?!If I didn't teach my daughter to obey, but still given her a command to stay in place , well to start with this is a child, that you're comparing to an adult "Adam", so you maybe responsible for a child, but not for an adult, even if the adult never learned to obey as a child, he would still know what it is. so you're using a false analogy.
bulproof
Posts: 25,209
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7/26/2013 10:02:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/26/2013 6:16:11 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/26/2013 10:57:20 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/26/2013 10:49:34 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/26/2013 8:28:34 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/26/2013 7:51:50 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/26/2013 6:12:45 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/26/2013 6:09:18 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/25/2013 9:20:33 PM, Bannanawamajama wrote:
What I'm saying is, if we originally couldn't differentiate between right and wrong, how could we have been held accountable for our actions? When a baby knocks down an expensive vase from a table or something, you don't get mad at the mistake because its a baby that doesn't realize the implications of its misdeed. Yes Adam disobeyed God, but why wouldn't he? If he didn't understand what wrong was, he couldn't have known that what he was doing was wrong. God told him not to eat the fruit, but then Eve did. Neither command was superior to the other, because he didn't realize his actions could possibly be negative. Same with Eve. If the Snake tells her to do something, she'll do it because why wouldn't you if someone asks? How can you tell you're being led astray if you can't conceive of any action as being something you shouldn't do?

We aren't accountable because of Morality, we are accountable because of free will, that's why God made Adam accountable for having disobeyed, because he was able to obey. and eating from that tree isn't immoral, but it still counted as a sin.
We are TAUGHT obedience. It doesn't come built in. Get a grip

Taught or not, it's a choice we make, speaking here about free will.You can know how to do something and still not do it !

Fruity, you have children. Yes?
Have you had to teach your children about obedience or did they come out of your womb understanding that concept?

I taught and still teach and I am aware they will always disobey, but I do punish them if I judge the disobedience to be enough significant.Teaching them obedience doesn't make them obedient, their will is what matters.
So your children learn to obey? Yes? It doesn't come naturally to them? Yes? YOU must TEACH them to obey? Yes?
If YOU had not taught YOUR child to obey you and she ran onto the road and was killed by a car, would that be your fault? Remember YOU HAVEN'T TAUGHT HER to OBEY YOU? Is it your fault? Or hers?

Well obey is basically keeping commands, you seem to think once you teach someone that he has to obey, he would obey like a robot ?! do you know this is impossible given the free will ?!If I didn't teach my daughter to obey, but still given her a command to stay in place , well to start with this is a child, that you're comparing to an adult "Adam", so you maybe responsible for a child, but not for an adult, even if the adult never learned to obey as a child, he would still know what it is. so you're using a false analogy.
You avoided the question, we can discuss adult/child a bit later. If your child had not been taught obedience by you and was killed because she didn't obey you, who's fault would it be?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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7/26/2013 10:56:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/26/2013 10:02:45 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/26/2013 6:16:11 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/26/2013 10:57:20 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/26/2013 10:49:34 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/26/2013 8:28:34 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/26/2013 7:51:50 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/26/2013 6:12:45 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/26/2013 6:09:18 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/25/2013 9:20:33 PM, Bannanawamajama wrote:
What I'm saying is, if we originally couldn't differentiate between right and wrong, how could we have been held accountable for our actions? When a baby knocks down an expensive vase from a table or something, you don't get mad at the mistake because its a baby that doesn't realize the implications of its misdeed. Yes Adam disobeyed God, but why wouldn't he? If he didn't understand what wrong was, he couldn't have known that what he was doing was wrong. God told him not to eat the fruit, but then Eve did. Neither command was superior to the other, because he didn't realize his actions could possibly be negative. Same with Eve. If the Snake tells her to do something, she'll do it because why wouldn't you if someone asks? How can you tell you're being led astray if you can't conceive of any action as being something you shouldn't do?

We aren't accountable because of Morality, we are accountable because of free will, that's why God made Adam accountable for having disobeyed, because he was able to obey. and eating from that tree isn't immoral, but it still counted as a sin.
We are TAUGHT obedience. It doesn't come built in. Get a grip

Taught or not, it's a choice we make, speaking here about free will.You can know how to do something and still not do it !

Fruity, you have children. Yes?
Have you had to teach your children about obedience or did they come out of your womb understanding that concept?

I taught and still teach and I am aware they will always disobey, but I do punish them if I judge the disobedience to be enough significant.Teaching them obedience doesn't make them obedient, their will is what matters.
So your children learn to obey? Yes? It doesn't come naturally to them? Yes? YOU must TEACH them to obey? Yes?
If YOU had not taught YOUR child to obey you and she ran onto the road and was killed by a car, would that be your fault? Remember YOU HAVEN'T TAUGHT HER to OBEY YOU? Is it your fault? Or hers?

Well obey is basically keeping commands, you seem to think once you teach someone that he has to obey, he would obey like a robot ?! do you know this is impossible given the free will ?!If I didn't teach my daughter to obey, but still given her a command to stay in place , well to start with this is a child, that you're comparing to an adult "Adam", so you maybe responsible for a child, but not for an adult, even if the adult never learned to obey as a child, he would still know what it is. so you're using a false analogy.
You avoided the question, we can discuss adult/child a bit later. If your child had not been taught obedience by you and was killed because she didn't obey you, who's fault would it be?

Well legally speaking it may be accounted as just an accident although I would feel guilty at some point that I did nothing to avoid that.
bulproof
Posts: 25,209
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7/27/2013 1:33:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/26/2013 10:56:11 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/26/2013 10:02:45 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/26/2013 6:16:11 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/26/2013 10:57:20 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/26/2013 10:49:34 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/26/2013 8:28:34 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/26/2013 7:51:50 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/26/2013 6:12:45 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/26/2013 6:09:18 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/25/2013 9:20:33 PM, Bannanawamajama wrote:
What I'm saying is, if we originally couldn't differentiate between right and wrong, how could we have been held accountable for our actions? When a baby knocks down an expensive vase from a table or something, you don't get mad at the mistake because its a baby that doesn't realize the implications of its misdeed. Yes Adam disobeyed God, but why wouldn't he? If he didn't understand what wrong was, he couldn't have known that what he was doing was wrong. God told him not to eat the fruit, but then Eve did. Neither command was superior to the other, because he didn't realize his actions could possibly be negative. Same with Eve. If the Snake tells her to do something, she'll do it because why wouldn't you if someone asks? How can you tell you're being led astray if you can't conceive of any action as being something you shouldn't do?

We aren't accountable because of Morality, we are accountable because of free will, that's why God made Adam accountable for having disobeyed, because he was able to obey. and eating from that tree isn't immoral, but it still counted as a sin.
We are TAUGHT obedience. It doesn't come built in. Get a grip

Taught or not, it's a choice we make, speaking here about free will.You can know how to do something and still not do it !

Fruity, you have children. Yes?
Have you had to teach your children about obedience or did they come out of your womb understanding that concept?

I taught and still teach and I am aware they will always disobey, but I do punish them if I judge the disobedience to be enough significant.Teaching them obedience doesn't make them obedient, their will is what matters.
So your children learn to obey? Yes? It doesn't come naturally to them? Yes? YOU must TEACH them to obey? Yes?
If YOU had not taught YOUR child to obey you and she ran onto the road and was killed by a car, would that be your fault? Remember YOU HAVEN'T TAUGHT HER to OBEY YOU? Is it your fault? Or hers?

Well obey is basically keeping commands, you seem to think once you teach someone that he has to obey, he would obey like a robot ?! do you know this is impossible given the free will ?!If I didn't teach my daughter to obey, but still given her a command to stay in place , well to start with this is a child, that you're comparing to an adult "Adam", so you maybe responsible for a child, but not for an adult, even if the adult never learned to obey as a child, he would still know what it is. so you're using a false analogy.
You avoided the question, we can discuss adult/child a bit later. If your child had not been taught obedience by you and was killed because she didn't obey you, who's fault would it be?

Well legally speaking it may be accounted as just an accident although I would feel guilty at some point that I did nothing to avoid that.
You are so afraid of answering the question honestly. Because you know that if you do your world tumbles down around your ears. What a terrible way to live the only life you get, being too afraid to look where the truth is sitting, right in front of you.Who's fault would it be?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin