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KISS THE BLACK STONE AS PRE ISLAMIC Pagans?

question4u
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7/27/2013 11:43:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
WHY YOU KISS THE BLACK STONE AS PRE ISLAMIC PAGANS DID?

TheA279; pre islamic pagans practice the Pilgrimage, the Fast of Ramadan, running around the Kabah seven times, kissing the black stone, shaving the head, animal sacrifices, running up and down two hills, throwing stones at the devil, snorting water in and out the nose, praying several times a day toward Mecca, giving alms, Friday prayers, etc. -- CAN YOUA279; REFUTE These FACTS?

Looks the same to me just like christianity-stealing other peoples practices and then killing people if they dont believe the way you believe.
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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7/27/2013 12:36:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/27/2013 11:43:55 AM, question4u wrote:
WHY YOU KISS THE BLACK STONE AS PRE ISLAMIC PAGANS DID?


TheA279; pre islamic pagans practice the Pilgrimage, the Fast of Ramadan, running around the Kabah seven times, kissing the black stone, shaving the head, animal sacrifices, running up and down two hills, throwing stones at the devil, snorting water in and out the nose, praying several times a day toward Mecca, giving alms, Friday prayers, etc. -- CAN YOUA279; REFUTE These FACTS?

Looks the same to me just like christianity-stealing other peoples practices and then killing people if they dont believe the way you believe.

Please provide proof to your statement.
Islam is very vocal in condemning idol worship. The Muslims do not worship Kabah, only Allah. While circumambulating the Kabah they chant: La Illa Ha Ill-lal-lah. (There is no God but Allah).
The only practice was Pilramage, and yet. It is believed to have originated from Abraham.

It was narrated from Saeed bin Jubair that Ibn Abbas said:
"Women used to circumambulate the Kabah naked, saying: 'Today some, or all of it will appear And whatever appers I don't make is permissible.' Then the following was revealed: 'O Children of Adam! Take your adornment to every Masjid.'"

Sunan an-Nasa'i, Vol. 3, Book 24, Hadith 2959

Narrated Abu Huraira:
On the Day of Nahr (10th of Dhul-Hijja, in the year prior to the last Hajj of the Prophet () when Abu Bakr was the leader of the pilgrims in that Hajj) Abu Bakr sent me along with other announcers to Mina to make a public announcement: "No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year and no naked person is allowed to perform the Tawaf around the Ka`ba. Then Allah's Messenger () sent `Ali to read out the Surat Bara'a (at-Tauba) to the people; so he made the announcement along with us on the day of Nahr in Mina: "No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year and no naked person is allowed to perform the Tawaf around the Ka`ba."

Sahih al-Bukhari 369, Vol. 1, Book 8, Hadith 365

And [mention, O Muhammad], when We designated for Abraham the site of the House, [saying], "Do not associate anything with Me and purify My House for those who perform Tawaf and those who stand [in prayer] and those who bow and prostrate. (Quran 22:26)

And when they commit an immorality, they say, "We found our fathers doing it, and Allah has ordered us to do it." Say, "Indeed, Allah does not order immorality. Do you say about Allah that which you do not know?" (Quran 7:28)

As for the black stone, it is only for respect:

Ibn Abbas narrated that:
The Messenger of Allah said: "The Black Stone descended from the Paradise, and it was more white than milk, then it was blacked by the sins of the children of Adam."

Jami` at-Tirmidhi, Vol. 2, Book 4, Hadith 877

We are aware that this stone is just a stone.
It is simply a marker for the starting point of Tawaf.

Narrated `Abis bin Rabi`a:
`Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Messenger () kissing you I would not have kissed you."

Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 2, Book 26, Hadith 667
question4u
Posts: 492
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7/27/2013 12:50:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/27/2013 12:36:54 PM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 7/27/2013 11:43:55 AM, question4u wrote:
WHY YOU KISS THE BLACK STONE AS PRE ISLAMIC PAGANS DID?


TheA279; pre islamic pagans practice the Pilgrimage, the Fast of Ramadan, running around the Kabah seven times, kissing the black stone, shaving the head, animal sacrifices, running up and down two hills, throwing stones at the devil, snorting water in and out the nose, praying several times a day toward Mecca, giving alms, Friday prayers, etc. -- CAN YOUA279; REFUTE These FACTS?

Looks the same to me just like christianity-stealing other peoples practices and then killing people if they dont believe the way you believe.



Please provide proof to your statement.
Islam is very vocal in condemning idol worship. The Muslims do not worship Kabah, only Allah. While circumambulating the Kabah they chant: La Illa Ha Ill-lal-lah. (There is no God but Allah).
The only practice was Pilramage, and yet. It is believed to have originated from Abraham.


It was narrated from Saeed bin Jubair that Ibn Abbas said:
"Women used to circumambulate the Kabah naked, saying: 'Today some, or all of it will appear And whatever appers I don't make is permissible.' Then the following was revealed: 'O Children of Adam! Take your adornment to every Masjid.'"

Sunan an-Nasa'i, Vol. 3, Book 24, Hadith 2959


Narrated Abu Huraira:
On the Day of Nahr (10th of Dhul-Hijja, in the year prior to the last Hajj of the Prophet () when Abu Bakr was the leader of the pilgrims in that Hajj) Abu Bakr sent me along with other announcers to Mina to make a public announcement: "No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year and no naked person is allowed to perform the Tawaf around the Ka`ba. Then Allah's Messenger () sent `Ali to read out the Surat Bara'a (at-Tauba) to the people; so he made the announcement along with us on the day of Nahr in Mina: "No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year and no naked person is allowed to perform the Tawaf around the Ka`ba."

Sahih al-Bukhari 369, Vol. 1, Book 8, Hadith 365




And [mention, O Muhammad], when We designated for Abraham the site of the House, [saying], "Do not associate anything with Me and purify My House for those who perform Tawaf and those who stand [in prayer] and those who bow and prostrate. (Quran 22:26)


And when they commit an immorality, they say, "We found our fathers doing it, and Allah has ordered us to do it." Say, "Indeed, Allah does not order immorality. Do you say about Allah that which you do not know?" (Quran 7:28)


As for the black stone, it is only for respect:

Ibn Abbas narrated that:
The Messenger of Allah said: "The Black Stone descended from the Paradise, and it was more white than milk, then it was blacked by the sins of the children of Adam."

Jami` at-Tirmidhi, Vol. 2, Book 4, Hadith 877

We are aware that this stone is just a stone.
It is simply a marker for the starting point of Tawaf.

Narrated `Abis bin Rabi`a:
`Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Messenger () kissing you I would not have kissed you."

Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 2, Book 26, Hadith 667

So naked women came to the kabbah naked until Years after mohammed. When did they stop? Also it still is no proof that this was not pagan practice and not stolen from pre islamic pagans.
Mysterious_Stranger
Posts: 1,562
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7/27/2013 1:05:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Just let people believe what they see fit in terms of religion, it does not make the practice true however.
Turn around, go back.
question4u
Posts: 492
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7/27/2013 2:59:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/27/2013 1:05:38 PM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
Just let people believe what they see fit in terms of religion, it does not make the practice true however.

What is your religion?
Mysterious_Stranger
Posts: 1,562
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7/28/2013 5:12:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/27/2013 2:59:54 PM, question4u wrote:
At 7/27/2013 1:05:38 PM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
Just let people believe what they see fit in terms of religion, it does not make the practice true however.

What is your religion?

I'm an athiest
Turn around, go back.
bulproof
Posts: 25,249
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7/28/2013 6:35:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/27/2013 5:30:48 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
The pagans didn't invent it, the pilgrimage is a sunna (tradition)of Abraham and Ismael.

So says muhammad after the pagans had done it for ever.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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7/28/2013 7:19:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/28/2013 6:35:20 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/27/2013 5:30:48 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
The pagans didn't invent it, the pilgrimage is a sunna (tradition)of Abraham and Ismael.

So says muhammad after the pagans had done it for ever.

Yes after them, but not imitating them, but imitating the one they imitated: Abraham!
bulproof
Posts: 25,249
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7/28/2013 8:26:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/28/2013 7:19:02 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/28/2013 6:35:20 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/27/2013 5:30:48 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
The pagans didn't invent it, the pilgrimage is a sunna (tradition)of Abraham and Ismael.

So says muhammad after the pagans had done it for ever.

Yes after them, but not imitating them, but imitating the one they imitated: Abraham!
Once again, so says muhammad.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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7/28/2013 11:18:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/28/2013 8:26:29 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/28/2013 7:19:02 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/28/2013 6:35:20 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/27/2013 5:30:48 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
The pagans didn't invent it, the pilgrimage is a sunna (tradition)of Abraham and Ismael.

So says muhammad after the pagans had done it for ever.

Yes after them, but not imitating them, but imitating the one they imitated: Abraham!
Once again, so says muhammad.

Mohamed is one of the Arabs, it's not like he came from nowhere, Arabs are from the progeny of Abraham, through Ismael, and Mohamed is a descendent of Kedar, himself and his tribe.

"Behold, the former things are come to pass, and the new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. `Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth'. Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voices, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains. Let them give glory unto the Lord, and declare His praise in the inlands." Isaiah Chapter 42, Verses 9-12.
bulproof
Posts: 25,249
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7/28/2013 11:25:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/28/2013 11:18:23 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/28/2013 8:26:29 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/28/2013 7:19:02 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/28/2013 6:35:20 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/27/2013 5:30:48 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
The pagans didn't invent it, the pilgrimage is a sunna (tradition)of Abraham and Ismael.

So says muhammad after the pagans had done it for ever.

Yes after them, but not imitating them, but imitating the one they imitated: Abraham!
Once again, so says muhammad.

Mohamed is one of the Arabs, it's not like he came from nowhere, Arabs are from the progeny of Abraham, through Ismael, and Mohamed is a descendent of Kedar, himself and his tribe.

"Behold, the former things are come to pass, and the new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. `Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth'. Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voices, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains. Let them give glory unto the Lord, and declare His praise in the inlands." Isaiah Chapter 42, Verses 9-12.
How do you know these traditions, kiss the rock? Who says muhammad is descended from kedar?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
question4u
Posts: 492
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7/29/2013 7:38:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/28/2013 7:19:02 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/28/2013 6:35:20 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/27/2013 5:30:48 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
The pagans didn't invent it, the pilgrimage is a sunna (tradition)of Abraham and Ismael.

So says muhammad after the pagans had done it for ever.

Yes after them, but not imitating them, but imitating the one they imitated: Abraham!

Give proof that abraham also kiss the rock and did the same symbols that you all do today for Islam?
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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7/29/2013 6:11:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/29/2013 7:38:08 AM, question4u wrote:
At 7/28/2013 7:19:02 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/28/2013 6:35:20 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/27/2013 5:30:48 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
The pagans didn't invent it, the pilgrimage is a sunna (tradition)of Abraham and Ismael.

So says muhammad after the pagans had done it for ever.

Yes after them, but not imitating them, but imitating the one they imitated: Abraham!

Give proof that abraham also kiss the rock and did the same symbols that you all do today for Islam?

You don't even believe in Mohamed, what proof would you accept ?!
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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7/30/2013 4:37:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/28/2013 11:25:29 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/28/2013 11:18:23 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/28/2013 8:26:29 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/28/2013 7:19:02 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/28/2013 6:35:20 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/27/2013 5:30:48 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
The pagans didn't invent it, the pilgrimage is a sunna (tradition)of Abraham and Ismael.

So says muhammad after the pagans had done it for ever.

Yes after them, but not imitating them, but imitating the one they imitated: Abraham!
Once again, so says muhammad.

Mohamed is one of the Arabs, it's not like he came from nowhere, Arabs are from the progeny of Abraham, through Ismael, and Mohamed is a descendent of Kedar, himself and his tribe.

"Behold, the former things are come to pass, and the new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. `Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth'. Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voices, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains. Let them give glory unto the Lord, and declare His praise in the inlands." Isaiah Chapter 42, Verses 9-12.
How do you know these traditions, kiss the rock? Who says muhammad is descended from kedar?

Ok you need to read some history here :

http://nabataea.net...

http://en.wikipedia.org...

http://www.al-islam.org...

For the tradition, we take it from the Prophet, because by the time he was sent, a lot of innovation had already come to the people worship, and he came to teach people how to worship God.

Abbas bin Rabi'ah said:

"I saw Umar bin Al-Khattab kissing the (Black) Stone and saying: 'I am kissing you while I know that you are just a stone, and if I had not seen the Messenger of Allah kissing you, I would not kiss you.'" (Sahih)

http://sunnah.com...
question4u
Posts: 492
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7/30/2013 9:34:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/29/2013 6:11:18 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/29/2013 7:38:08 AM, question4u wrote:
At 7/28/2013 7:19:02 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/28/2013 6:35:20 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/27/2013 5:30:48 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
The pagans didn't invent it, the pilgrimage is a sunna (tradition)of Abraham and Ismael.

So says muhammad after the pagans had done it for ever.

Yes after them, but not imitating them, but imitating the one they imitated: Abraham!

Give proof that abraham also kiss the rock and did the same symbols that you all do today for Islam?

You don't even believe in Mohamed, what proof would you accept ?!

Just give the proof if you have. Dont keep knowledge away from the those that want to know the truth. Such as myself. Share your fruit.
bulproof
Posts: 25,249
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7/30/2013 10:00:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/29/2013 6:11:18 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/29/2013 7:38:08 AM, question4u wrote:
At 7/28/2013 7:19:02 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/28/2013 6:35:20 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/27/2013 5:30:48 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
The pagans didn't invent it, the pilgrimage is a sunna (tradition)of Abraham and Ismael.

So says muhammad after the pagans had done it for ever.

Yes after them, but not imitating them, but imitating the one they imitated: Abraham!

Give proof that abraham also kiss the rock and did the same symbols that you all do today for Islam?

You don't even believe in Mohamed, what proof would you accept ?!
So you have no evidence at all that abraham kissed this rock (or why he would worship a rock) but you claim that because someone who lived allegedly 2500yrs after abraham lived says he did, you believe him. WOW. The religion this abraham apparently brought to the kaabah ended up being 360 gods or did he bring all of them?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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7/30/2013 11:11:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/30/2013 10:00:37 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/29/2013 6:11:18 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/29/2013 7:38:08 AM, question4u wrote:
At 7/28/2013 7:19:02 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/28/2013 6:35:20 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/27/2013 5:30:48 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
The pagans didn't invent it, the pilgrimage is a sunna (tradition)of Abraham and Ismael.

So says muhammad after the pagans had done it for ever.

Yes after them, but not imitating them, but imitating the one they imitated: Abraham!

Give proof that abraham also kiss the rock and did the same symbols that you all do today for Islam?

You don't even believe in Mohamed, what proof would you accept ?!
So you have no evidence at all that abraham kissed this rock (or why he would worship a rock) but you claim that because someone who lived allegedly 2500yrs after abraham lived says he did, you believe him. WOW. The religion this abraham apparently brought to the kaabah ended up being 360 gods or did he bring all of them?

Well that's the point of my question, to me its not "someone", but The promised prophet, and to him and yourself, it's someone making a claim! we don't start from the same premise, we can't get the same result.

And no, not whatever Arabs did is from Abraham they innovated a lot, and did have enough time to innovate, and Mohamed came and purified the religion.
question4u
Posts: 492
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7/30/2013 11:44:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/30/2013 11:11:34 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/30/2013 10:00:37 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/29/2013 6:11:18 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/29/2013 7:38:08 AM, question4u wrote:
At 7/28/2013 7:19:02 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 7/28/2013 6:35:20 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/27/2013 5:30:48 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
The pagans didn't invent it, the pilgrimage is a sunna (tradition)of Abraham and Ismael.

So says muhammad after the pagans had done it for ever.

Yes after them, but not imitating them, but imitating the one they imitated: Abraham!

Give proof that abraham also kiss the rock and did the same symbols that you all do today for Islam?

You don't even believe in Mohamed, what proof would you accept ?!
So you have no evidence at all that abraham kissed this rock (or why he would worship a rock) but you claim that because someone who lived allegedly 2500yrs after abraham lived says he did, you believe him. WOW. The religion this abraham apparently brought to the kaabah ended up being 360 gods or did he bring all of them?

Well that's the point of my question, to me its not "someone", but The promised prophet, and to him and yourself, it's someone making a claim! we don't start from the same premise, we can't get the same result.

And no, not whatever Arabs did is from Abraham they innovated a lot, and did have enough time to innovate, and Mohamed came and purified the religion.

You still did not provide evidence or proof to the question bulproof asked for or myself...Just faith, I can given evidence but then that disagree with me do have nothing to say after that but move to next question. Were is your evidence or proof.
Bagofhammers
Posts: 84
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7/30/2013 11:58:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/27/2013 12:36:54 PM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 7/27/2013 11:43:55 AM, question4u wrote:
WHY YOU KISS THE BLACK STONE AS PRE ISLAMIC PAGANS DID?


TheA279; pre islamic pagans practice the Pilgrimage, the Fast of Ramadan, running around the Kabah seven times, kissing the black stone, shaving the head, animal sacrifices, running up and down two hills, throwing stones at the devil, snorting water in and out the nose, praying several times a day toward Mecca, giving alms, Friday prayers, etc. -- CAN YOUA279; REFUTE These FACTS?

Looks the same to me just like christianity-stealing other peoples practices and then killing people if they dont believe the way you believe.



Please provide proof to your statement.
Islam is very vocal in condemning idol worship. The Muslims do not worship Kabah, only Allah. While circumambulating the Kabah they chant: La Illa Ha Ill-lal-lah. (There is no God but Allah).
The only practice was Pilramage, and yet. It is believed to have originated from Abraham.


It was narrated from Saeed bin Jubair that Ibn Abbas said:
"Women used to circumambulate the Kabah naked, saying: 'Today some, or all of it will appear And whatever appers I don't make is permissible.' Then the following was revealed: 'O Children of Adam! Take your adornment to every Masjid.'"

Sunan an-Nasa'i, Vol. 3, Book 24, Hadith 2959


Narrated Abu Huraira:
On the Day of Nahr (10th of Dhul-Hijja, in the year prior to the last Hajj of the Prophet () when Abu Bakr was the leader of the pilgrims in that Hajj) Abu Bakr sent me along with other announcers to Mina to make a public announcement: "No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year and no naked person is allowed to perform the Tawaf around the Ka`ba. Then Allah's Messenger () sent `Ali to read out the Surat Bara'a (at-Tauba) to the people; so he made the announcement along with us on the day of Nahr in Mina: "No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year and no naked person is allowed to perform the Tawaf around the Ka`ba."

Sahih al-Bukhari 369, Vol. 1, Book 8, Hadith 365




And [mention, O Muhammad], when We designated for Abraham the site of the House, [saying], "Do not associate anything with Me and purify My House for those who perform Tawaf and those who stand [in prayer] and those who bow and prostrate. (Quran 22:26)


And when they commit an immorality, they say, "We found our fathers doing it, and Allah has ordered us to do it." Say, "Indeed, Allah does not order immorality. Do you say about Allah that which you do not know?" (Quran 7:28)


As for the black stone, it is only for respect:

Ibn Abbas narrated that:
The Messenger of Allah said: "The Black Stone descended from the Paradise, and it was more white than milk, then it was blacked by the sins of the children of Adam."

Jami` at-Tirmidhi, Vol. 2, Book 4, Hadith 877

We are aware that this stone is just a stone.
It is simply a marker for the starting point of Tawaf.

Narrated `Abis bin Rabi`a:
`Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Messenger () kissing you I would not have kissed you."

Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 2, Book 26, Hadith 667

The term "idol worshipping" is a buzzword that makes people fall into confusion and bigotry. Moses and his "God" made it a capitol crime to create any image of any character or animal. As the story goes, Moses murdered 3000 Jews for creating a statue of an animal. They created it as a peaceful protest to the law, and Moses had them murdered. Worshipping means to shower love on, or show reverence for. "Idol worshipping" is the act of creating and loving any likeness of anything but Moses and his murderously jealous "God". Just creating a user name with an Avatar on this site is committing a capitol crime in the eyes of Moses. In other words, "idol worshipping" is what you are supposed to do. You are supposed to throw away the teachings of Moses because they are incredibly evil, and instead use common sense, and a moral compass.