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Omnipotence IS absurd

000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/1/2013 3:37:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Every time you invoke the paradox of the stone, there's always somebody denying that omnipotence applies to the logically absurd. This is not a valid refutation. Logic can't be assumed to be a universal governor of reality; logic is a method of reasoning borne out of local necessity - therefore having only local relevance. There is therefore no reason why God would be "omnipotent" within the confines of what is logically possible. If sub-atomic particles can easily defy the law of causation as well as the law of non-contradiction, then surely the divine author of everything does not operate under such constraints.

Omnipotence means all power. And where there is all power there are powers that coexist yet contradict each other. Therefore an omnipotent being is an argumentatively nonsensical suggestion.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Magic8000
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8/1/2013 4:17:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I've actually seen anti atheist argue the same thing.
http://www.debate.org...

No offense.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
bornofgod
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8/1/2013 4:24:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 3:37:21 PM, 000ike wrote:
Every time you invoke the paradox of the stone, there's always somebody denying that omnipotence applies to the logically absurd. This is not a valid refutation. Logic can't be assumed to be a universal governor of reality; logic is a method of reasoning borne out of local necessity - therefore having only local relevance. There is therefore no reason why God would be "omnipotent" within the confines of what is logically possible. If sub-atomic particles can easily defy the law of causation as well as the law of non-contradiction, then surely the divine author of everything does not operate under such constraints.

Omnipotence means all power. And where there is all power there are powers that coexist yet contradict each other. Therefore an omnipotent being is an argumentatively nonsensical suggestion.

People have to call Him omnipotent because they have no clue who God is or how He created us. God created entropy (Lucifer and the beast) to keep His people confused with changes that no man can see as Truth.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/1/2013 4:28:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 4:17:16 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
I've actually seen anti atheist argue the same thing.
http://www.debate.org...

No offense.

Well, none taken, but you're mistaken. Firstly, I think you mean Zaradi, not anti-atheist. And Zaradi invoked the paradox of the stone (which is a very well-known argument against the existence of God) so neither he nor I can claim to have created it. Lastly, my argument is uniquely mine in that it disarms the amendment that God is powerful only within what is logically possible based on the localized applicability of logic. And this is not the first time I've forwarded this argument.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Orangatang
Posts: 442
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8/1/2013 6:20:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 4:24:37 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/1/2013 3:37:21 PM, 000ike wrote:
Every time you invoke the paradox of the stone, there's always somebody denying that omnipotence applies to the logically absurd. This is not a valid refutation. Logic can't be assumed to be a universal governor of reality; logic is a method of reasoning borne out of local necessity - therefore having only local relevance. There is therefore no reason why God would be "omnipotent" within the confines of what is logically possible. If sub-atomic particles can easily defy the law of causation as well as the law of non-contradiction, then surely the divine author of everything does not operate under such constraints.

Omnipotence means all power. And where there is all power there are powers that coexist yet contradict each other. Therefore an omnipotent being is an argumentatively nonsensical suggestion.

People have to call Him omnipotent because they have no clue who God is or how He created us. God created entropy (Lucifer and the beast) to keep His people confused with changes that no man can see as Truth.

If they have no clue then why call him omnipotent, why don't they just admit that they don't know. You also claim that no man can find out truth because of entropy? I have never heard such an absurd argument so please support it.
Read and Vote Please! http://www.debate.org...
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/1/2013 7:22:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 6:20:30 PM, Orangatang wrote:
At 8/1/2013 4:24:37 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/1/2013 3:37:21 PM, 000ike wrote:
Every time you invoke the paradox of the stone, there's always somebody denying that omnipotence applies to the logically absurd. This is not a valid refutation. Logic can't be assumed to be a universal governor of reality; logic is a method of reasoning borne out of local necessity - therefore having only local relevance. There is therefore no reason why God would be "omnipotent" within the confines of what is logically possible. If sub-atomic particles can easily defy the law of causation as well as the law of non-contradiction, then surely the divine author of everything does not operate under such constraints.

Omnipotence means all power. And where there is all power there are powers that coexist yet contradict each other. Therefore an omnipotent being is an argumentatively nonsensical suggestion.

People have to call Him omnipotent because they have no clue who God is or how He created us. God created entropy (Lucifer and the beast) to keep His people confused with changes that no man can see as Truth.

If they have no clue then why call him omnipotent, why don't they just admit that they don't know. You also claim that no man can find out truth because of entropy? I have never heard such an absurd argument so please support it.

I don't even know what to do with that comment. I think it suffices to ignore it.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Bullish
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8/1/2013 7:42:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Another common explanation is that God is omnipotent, but just chooses to not do certain things, like kill himself.
0x5f3759df
000ike
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8/1/2013 7:44:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 7:42:33 PM, Bullish wrote:
Another common explanation is that God is omnipotent, but just chooses to not do certain things, like kill himself.

I've heard that one, and I think it's the most irritatingly idiotic of all of them. Logic isn't a volitional construct. If you have the choice to violate logic, you're already in violation of logic!
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Poetaster
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8/1/2013 7:48:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 4:24:37 PM, bornofgod wrote:
God created entropy (Lucifer and the beast) to keep His people confused with changes that no man can see as Truth.

I always suspected that there was something satanic about thermodynamics (although Maxwell's demon makes more sense now).
"The book you are looking for hasn't been written yet. What you are looking for you are going to have to find yourself, it's not going to be in a book..." -Sidewalker
popculturepooka
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8/1/2013 8:15:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You've been beating this ineffective drum for a long time; seriously, about 95% of classical theist philosophers and theologians don't agree that pmnipotence should be construed in that sense. Who cares that you understand it in a sense that majority of philosophically sophisticated adherents don't? So God isn't omnipotent in your sense. . So?
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000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/1/2013 8:21:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 8:15:23 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
You've been beating this ineffective drum for a long time; seriously, about 95% of classical theist philosophers and theologians don't agree that pmnipotence should be construed in that sense. Who cares that you understand it in a sense that majority of philosophically sophisticated adherents don't? So God isn't omnipotent in your sense. . So?

I don't care what theist philosophers believe. These are the same people that believe that God exists, why would I abandon my own beliefs just because most of them have a different definition of omnipotence.

And this isn't even the same 'drum'. I have acknowledged that you define omnipotence differently, but I have raised an objection to that definition. You're essentially taking a leap of faith and universalizing logic in claiming that all things that are possible are logically possible. Well we know for a fact that certain things are possible that are logically impossible, and the frequency of such events increases the more unfamiliar the scale of reference. Logic is a local conception applicable on a local level. If a tiny particle can easily deviate from logical law, then why can't God?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Composer
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8/1/2013 8:51:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 8:21:48 PM, 000ike wrote:
If a tiny particle can easily deviate from logical law, then why can't God?
Here's why -

. . . . with whom can be no variation, . . . . (Jame 1:17) ASV Story book

You stand corrected and your ideology fails you!
000ike
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8/1/2013 8:55:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 8:51:09 PM, Composer wrote:
At 8/1/2013 8:21:48 PM, 000ike wrote:
If a tiny particle can easily deviate from logical law, then why can't God?
Here's why -

. . . . with whom can be no variation, . . . . (Jame 1:17) ASV Story book

You stand corrected and your ideology fails you!


What?... I'm an atheist. I'm arguing that the localized relevance of logic precludes us from proving God's existence - and that the notion of omnipotence cannot be constrained to logic, if we know that this system applies only in a specific scale of reality.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
popculturepooka
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8/1/2013 11:11:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 8:21:48 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/1/2013 8:15:23 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
You've been beating this ineffective drum for a long time; seriously, about 95% of classical theist philosophers and theologians don't agree that pmnipotence should be construed in that sense. Who cares that you understand it in a sense that majority of philosophically sophisticated adherents don't? So God isn't omnipotent in your sense. . So?

I don't care what theist philosophers believe. These are the same people that believe that God exists, why would I abandon my own beliefs just because most of them have a different definition of omnipotence.

And this isn't even the same 'drum'. I have acknowledged that you define omnipotence differently, but I have raised an objection to that definition. You're essentially taking a leap of faith and universalizing logic in claiming that all things that are possible are logically possible.

Lol, that's definitional. By definition logical possibilities exhaust the maximun range of possibilities. Other senses of possibility are only subsets of logical possibilty. Like metaphyical possibilty/physical possibility, etc.

Well we know for a fact that certain things are possible that are logically impossible, and the frequency of such events increases the more unfamiliar the scale of reference

No we don't. That literally makes no sense. If something is logically impossible then it doesn't obtain in any.possible world.

Logic is a local conception applicable on a local level. If a tiny particle can easily deviate from logical law, then why can't God?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Nur-Ab-Sal
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8/1/2013 11:54:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 8:21:48 PM, 000ike wrote:
Well we know for a fact that certain things are possible that are logically impossible

If something is possible, then it must be logically possible...
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
SovereignDream
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8/2/2013 12:28:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 3:37:21 PM, 000ike wrote:
Every time you invoke the paradox of the stone, there's always somebody denying that omnipotence applies to the logically absurd. This is not a valid refutation. Logic can't be assumed to be a universal governor of reality; logic is a method of reasoning borne out of local necessity - therefore having only local relevance. There is therefore no reason why God would be "omnipotent" within the confines of what is logically possible. If sub-atomic particles can easily defy the law of causation as well as the law of non-contradiction, then surely the divine author of everything does not operate under such constraints.

Omnipotence means all power. And where there is all power there are powers that coexist yet contradict each other. Therefore an omnipotent being is an argumentatively nonsensical suggestion.

Wow. That's pretty embarrassing.

High five?
popculturepooka
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8/2/2013 1:02:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 11:54:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 8/1/2013 8:21:48 PM, 000ike wrote:
Well we know for a fact that certain things are possible that are logically impossible

If something is possible, then it must be logically possible...

Yeah...
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Nur-Ab-Sal
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8/2/2013 1:04:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/2/2013 1:02:55 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/1/2013 11:54:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 8/1/2013 8:21:48 PM, 000ike wrote:
Well we know for a fact that certain things are possible that are logically impossible

If something is possible, then it must be logically possible...

Yeah...

I just noticed you said nearly the same thing... sorry.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Eitan_Zohar
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8/2/2013 2:32:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 3:37:21 PM, 000ike wrote:
If sub-atomic particles can easily defy the law of causation as well as the law of non-contradiction, then surely the divine author of everything does not operate under such constraints.

Is this a joke? I want to ask you, you actually believe that NC is refuted by quantum mechanics?
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Orangatang
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8/2/2013 4:04:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/2/2013 2:32:52 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 8/1/2013 3:37:21 PM, 000ike wrote:
If sub-atomic particles can easily defy the law of causation as well as the law of non-contradiction, then surely the divine author of everything does not operate under such constraints.

Is this a joke? I want to ask you, you actually believe that NC is refuted by quantum mechanics?

Quantum mechanics does seem to defy many traditional forms of logical. Logically defying concepts include: 1) the superposition of the states of an atom. 2) The observation that localized object act as both a wave and a particle simultaneously. 3) An electron is found to be at two places at once. 4) Virtual Particles pop in and out of existence all the time.
Read and Vote Please! http://www.debate.org...
000ike
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8/2/2013 6:59:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 11:11:28 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/1/2013 8:21:48 PM, 000ike wrote:

Lol, that's definitional. By definition logical possibilities exhaust the maximun range of possibilities. Other senses of possibility are only subsets of logical possibilty. Like metaphyical possibilty/physical possibility, etc.

Well we know for a fact that certain things are possible that are logically impossible, and the frequency of such events increases the more unfamiliar the scale of reference

No we don't. That literally makes no sense. If something is logically impossible then it doesn't obtain in any.possible world.

You guys aren't even trying. This isn't a fact; this is an assumption informed by the limits of our own conceptual abilities. Logic is not an all-descriptive order of nature - nature has no evolutionary interest in providing us with such things. Logic is a system with which we make sense of things - it's a configuration of thought developed to meet the exigencies of our present environment. It can be trusted on familiar scales, but it cannot simply extend to every reach and scale of the universe at large - that's an assumption. That's just a leap of faith.

I invoked quantum mechanics, not necessarily because it defies every conception of logic, but because it does challenge a few of them that are classical and intuitive. An object in several superposed states at once flies in the face of non-contradiction. Probability flies in the face of causation. Clearly our a priori reasoning of what is and is not possible has flaws - as it should if evolution is true.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
popculturepooka
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8/2/2013 8:08:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/2/2013 4:17:01 AM, bulproof wrote:
Is supernatural logically possible? How?

Is that a serious question?
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bulproof
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8/2/2013 8:13:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/2/2013 8:08:20 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/2/2013 4:17:01 AM, bulproof wrote:
Is supernatural logically possible? How?

Is that a serious question?

Is that a serious question?
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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8/2/2013 8:26:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 3:37:21 PM, 000ike wrote:
Every time you invoke the paradox of the stone, there's always somebody denying that omnipotence applies to the logically absurd. This is not a valid refutation. Logic can't be assumed to be a universal governor of reality; logic is a method of reasoning borne out of local necessity - therefore having only local relevance. There is therefore no reason why God would be "omnipotent" within the confines of what is logically possible. If sub-atomic particles can easily defy the law of causation as well as the law of non-contradiction, then surely the divine author of everything does not operate under such constraints.

Omnipotence means all power. And where there is all power there are powers that coexist yet contradict each other. Therefore an omnipotent being is an argumentatively nonsensical suggestion.

This post is you trying to control my post on omniscience or something retarded like that. See: A Clockwork Orange.
bornofgod
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8/2/2013 9:33:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 6:20:30 PM, Orangatang wrote:
At 8/1/2013 4:24:37 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/1/2013 3:37:21 PM, 000ike wrote:
Every time you invoke the paradox of the stone, there's always somebody denying that omnipotence applies to the logically absurd. This is not a valid refutation. Logic can't be assumed to be a universal governor of reality; logic is a method of reasoning borne out of local necessity - therefore having only local relevance. There is therefore no reason why God would be "omnipotent" within the confines of what is logically possible. If sub-atomic particles can easily defy the law of causation as well as the law of non-contradiction, then surely the divine author of everything does not operate under such constraints.

Omnipotence means all power. And where there is all power there are powers that coexist yet contradict each other. Therefore an omnipotent being is an argumentatively nonsensical suggestion.

People have to call Him omnipotent because they have no clue who God is or how He created us. God created entropy (Lucifer and the beast) to keep His people confused with changes that no man can see as Truth.

If they have no clue then why call him omnipotent, why don't they just admit that they don't know. You also claim that no man can find out truth because of entropy? I have never heard such an absurd argument so please support it.

Pride is the reason man can't admit to not knowing who our Creator is. Pride is a fear caused by not having the knowledge of God to know where fear came from in the first place. The prophecies were written in heavy symbolic form to keep mere men from understanding what they mean. Men try interpret them without having the knowledge of God and this is why there are so many different denominations of Christianity today. This is entropy at work.

Entropy is something science learned about 150 years ago but it's what causes fear in the minds of men. If you flip a coin, you have no way of knowing whether it will land on heads or tails. If you were a gambling man, your fear of losing money as you flip the coin would end as soon as you see that it landed on the side you bet on. Even after you won, now you will have fear about collecting the money until you have the money in your pocket. Then you'll have another fear of losing that money you just won. All these fears are caused by not knowing the future of what side the coin will land on.

In order to explain entropy, you need to understand how God created everything. Only us saints receive the knowledge of God to learn about the delusion (old covenant) that we're living with in this world. This knowledge of God (Christ) is without entropy that causes fear in the minds of those who don't have His knowledge.

We are learning through science that we're made of wavebits of energy and that this energy is information. Science has been showing us that information causes changes in energy but they didn't know that information IS energy until recently. They still don't understand that our Creator created entropy to confuse His people during this age and this entropy is called Lucifer, satan, devil, false prophet, antichrist, wicked, etc. in the scriptures. These symbolic names have been used literally by Christians and all other religious people going back to the early days of Babylon, where God's plan called the "beast" began to deceive the minds of men. These names come with false teachings to cause fear in God's people as we can easily see today in all the religions of this world. Even our governments use these false teachings to cause fear in God's people.

God teaches all His saints that we are created in His invisible Kingdom but 2,000 years ago, they didn't have the scientific data of wavebits of energy to help a believer understand our invisible created existence. God taught the early saints with things like a seed in the ground that sprouts into a large tree. The seed is the invisible Kingdom of God (Heaven) and the tree that we all can see, smell, taste, and touch is the Earth existence. So all us saints knew we came from the unseen world that no flesh could see, taste, smell, or touch.

Each wavelength of energy vibrates differently than another wavelength of energy. These wavebits of energy can vibrate in harmony which causes man's flesh to experience peacefulness such as a well played classical song where all the vibrations from the instruments are in total harmony together. If a wrong note is played during that song, it will destroy peacefulness and cause the listener to feel anxious, or fear. Fear comes from not knowing whether or not there will be more wrong notes in the song that's being played, which can destroy the peacefulness that should be experienced if the song is played in perfect harmony.

God created everything within the thoughts of His mind. In other words, we are created as information (energy) but in perfect harmony. This perfect creation is called "Christ, or the Word of God, also known as the Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven, Light, Eternal Life, Holy Spirit, etc.

God caste "Lucifer" into His creation which is the entropy we experience in this world that causes us confusion and fear within our minds. The "beast" is also a plan of God's that contains entropy to confuse man's mind. This entropy contains wavebits of energy that vibrates in disharmony within God's creation that was created in perfect harmony. From the wavebits of energy that vibrate in disharmony with God's perfect creation, we get experiences in the earthly existence (flesh and the things we see, hear, taste, smell and touch) that cause fear and moves man away from knowing our Creator or his perfectly created existence within "Christ", which is God's created energy without entropy ( wavebits of energy vibrating in harmony).

This entropy (Lucifer, satan, devil, false prophet, antichrist, wicked, flesh, etc.) will be destroyed on the Last Day of this first age with God's fire, which is information designed to destroy it.

The reason for this entropy within our minds was for God to connect with His servant (Christ) within the flesh of His prophets and saints. Since the prophets were still under the old covenant (entropy) while God worked through them, they weren't given the knowledge of God without entropy (Christ) to understand who they were or how they were created. God used them to write prophecies about the future of when the saints would come with the knowledge to understand everything that is happening in this first age.

God had to change the information within the flesh of us saints to stop the delusion (entropy) within our mind, which is the mind of God. This allowed the information in our minds to unfold without entropy to deceive us like it did before our born again experience. Born again means that we began to experience information in our mind without entropy (Christ). Everything we write, speak or bodily actions, are testimonies to the Christ that we are witnessing within our mind (mind of God).

I can share much more information with you if you desire. If you ask the right question, I'll continue teaching you from "Christ". This means that I'll know you as a believer who listens to our Creator's voice through the flesh that's writing this testimony without entropy. Believers were created by God during this age to listen to the true gospel spoken by us saints. Unbelievers were created to reject the gospel and have the saint killed, which is shown in the prophecies of Revelation 6: 9-11 and Revelation 20: 4. God has our flesh killed after He's done with us because of the entropy that causes fear in the minds of men. This fear of the Truth that we speak causes the unbelievers to get rid of us. They're energy is vibrating in disharmony with the words I speak to them, which comes with perfect harmony that is heard by believers who have enough information within their
1dustpelt
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8/2/2013 9:42:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
http://www.godandscience.org...
Wall of LOL
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bornofgod
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8/2/2013 9:55:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/2/2013 9:47:41 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
bornofgod makes the best posts

Believers hear the Truth in our testimonies of Christ. It appears you're a true believer so keep reading His posts.