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Me and My Cookies

santhony
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8/4/2013 2:04:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I love to bake, but there are times I screw up. "No problem," I say to myself. "I know I left something out, and these cookies are going to turn out all wrong." So, instead of adding the missing ingredient in at the last minute, I stick the batch of cookies in the oven, regardless. However, when I go to take the cookies out the oven, I'm horrified by the way they turned out. "These cookies have disappointed me." I think to myself. "How dare they fall short of my expectations." I continue.

"I know what I'll do; I will return them to the oven and burn them to cinders. Therefore, the next batch will be more pleasing, having seen what becomes of those who fall short of my perfection."

Before you judge me, remember I'm the baker; and, I know what's best for my cookies.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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8/4/2013 2:18:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/4/2013 2:12:58 PM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
I am still trying to figure out what this is doing in the religion thread...

Sorry. I should have specified. It's a parable.
cybertron1998
Posts: 5,818
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8/4/2013 2:21:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
does this relate to the people who say, (in a way) "God created you so he knows whats best for you."
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
Mysterious_Stranger
Posts: 1,562
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8/4/2013 2:22:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/4/2013 2:18:29 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:12:58 PM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
I am still trying to figure out what this is doing in the religion thread...

Sorry. I should have specified. It's a parable.

Ah I see now.
Turn around, go back.
s-anthony
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8/4/2013 2:25:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/4/2013 2:21:16 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
does this relate to the people who say, (in a way) "God created you so he knows whats best for you."

Yes.
cybertron1998
Posts: 5,818
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8/4/2013 2:25:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/4/2013 2:25:09 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:21:16 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
does this relate to the people who say, (in a way) "God created you so he knows whats best for you."

Yes.

knew it
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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8/4/2013 2:53:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/4/2013 2:04:05 PM, santhony wrote:
I love to bake, but there are times I screw up. "No problem," I say to myself. "I know I left something out, and these cookies are going to turn out all wrong." So, instead of adding the missing ingredient in at the last minute, I stick the batch of cookies in the oven, regardless. However, when I go to take the cookies out the oven, I'm horrified by the way they turned out. "These cookies have disappointed me." I think to myself. "How dare they fall short of my expectations." I continue.

"I know what I'll do; I will return them to the oven and burn them to cinders. Therefore, the next batch will be more pleasing, having seen what becomes of those who fall short of my perfection."

Before you judge me, remember I'm the baker; and, I know what's best for my cookies.

Then how come you screw up?
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

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airmax1227
Posts: 13,240
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8/4/2013 2:56:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/4/2013 2:53:06 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:04:05 PM, santhony wrote:
I love to bake, but there are times I screw up. "No problem," I say to myself. "I know I left something out, and these cookies are going to turn out all wrong." So, instead of adding the missing ingredient in at the last minute, I stick the batch of cookies in the oven, regardless. However, when I go to take the cookies out the oven, I'm horrified by the way they turned out. "These cookies have disappointed me." I think to myself. "How dare they fall short of my expectations." I continue.

"I know what I'll do; I will return them to the oven and burn them to cinders. Therefore, the next batch will be more pleasing, having seen what becomes of those who fall short of my perfection."

Before you judge me, remember I'm the baker; and, I know what's best for my cookies.

Then how come you screw up?

This was my first thought...

How competent of a cookie creator can you possibly be if your first batch required destruction?

This seems to imply that "the creator" creates though trial and error...
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s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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8/4/2013 3:08:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/4/2013 2:53:06 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:04:05 PM, santhony wrote:
I love to bake, but there are times I screw up. "No problem," I say to myself. "I know I left something out, and these cookies are going to turn out all wrong." So, instead of adding the missing ingredient in at the last minute, I stick the batch of cookies in the oven, regardless. However, when I go to take the cookies out the oven, I'm horrified by the way they turned out. "These cookies have disappointed me." I think to myself. "How dare they fall short of my expectations." I continue.

"I know what I'll do; I will return them to the oven and burn them to cinders. Therefore, the next batch will be more pleasing, having seen what becomes of those who fall short of my perfection."

Before you judge me, remember I'm the baker; and, I know what's best for my cookies.

Then how come you screw up?

"Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou?" - Isaiah 45:9
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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8/4/2013 3:23:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/4/2013 2:56:56 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:53:06 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:04:05 PM, santhony wrote:
I love to bake, but there are times I screw up. "No problem," I say to myself. "I know I left something out, and these cookies are going to turn out all wrong." So, instead of adding the missing ingredient in at the last minute, I stick the batch of cookies in the oven, regardless. However, when I go to take the cookies out the oven, I'm horrified by the way they turned out. "These cookies have disappointed me." I think to myself. "How dare they fall short of my expectations." I continue.

"I know what I'll do; I will return them to the oven and burn them to cinders. Therefore, the next batch will be more pleasing, having seen what becomes of those who fall short of my perfection."

Before you judge me, remember I'm the baker; and, I know what's best for my cookies.

Then how come you screw up?

This was my first thought...

How competent of a cookie creator can you possibly be if your first batch required destruction?

This seems to imply that "the creator" creates though trial and error...

The baker is an expert baker, with many years' experience. He knew exactly what he was doing the day he screwed up; but, remember we can't blame the baker for his screw ups.... The cookies must pay the price.... After all, they were complicit.
airmax1227
Posts: 13,240
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8/4/2013 3:28:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/4/2013 3:23:21 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:56:56 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:53:06 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:04:05 PM, santhony wrote:
I love to bake, but there are times I screw up. "No problem," I say to myself. "I know I left something out, and these cookies are going to turn out all wrong." So, instead of adding the missing ingredient in at the last minute, I stick the batch of cookies in the oven, regardless. However, when I go to take the cookies out the oven, I'm horrified by the way they turned out. "These cookies have disappointed me." I think to myself. "How dare they fall short of my expectations." I continue.

"I know what I'll do; I will return them to the oven and burn them to cinders. Therefore, the next batch will be more pleasing, having seen what becomes of those who fall short of my perfection."

Before you judge me, remember I'm the baker; and, I know what's best for my cookies.

Then how come you screw up?

This was my first thought...

How competent of a cookie creator can you possibly be if your first batch required destruction?

This seems to imply that "the creator" creates though trial and error...

The baker is an expert baker, with many years' experience. He knew exactly what he was doing the day he screwed up; but, remember we can't blame the baker for his screw ups.... The cookies must pay the price.... After all, they were complicit.

In the metaphor the cookies are inanimate and aren't sentient.. how could they be blamed for anything?

In the example of people, they may have been complicit, due to their free will (assuming you are granting this assumption), but any flaws in them were cooked into them by their creator.

If then the creator decides to destroy them because of their flaws, this seems to be pointing to an attempt towards trial and error by the creator, just as the metaphor seems to describe.

And if we can't blame the baker for baking bad cookies who can we blame? the cookies didn't bake themselves...
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s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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8/4/2013 3:36:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/4/2013 3:29:35 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
and what's up with you using multiple accounts in this thread?

I have two accounts; one of which I never use. When I created this post, I accidentally signed into that account. When I realized it, I went back to using the account I normally use.
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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8/4/2013 3:39:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/4/2013 3:08:47 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:53:06 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:04:05 PM, santhony wrote:
I love to bake, but there are times I screw up. "No problem," I say to myself. "I know I left something out, and these cookies are going to turn out all wrong." So, instead of adding the missing ingredient in at the last minute, I stick the batch of cookies in the oven, regardless. However, when I go to take the cookies out the oven, I'm horrified by the way they turned out. "These cookies have disappointed me." I think to myself. "How dare they fall short of my expectations." I continue.

"I know what I'll do; I will return them to the oven and burn them to cinders. Therefore, the next batch will be more pleasing, having seen what becomes of those who fall short of my perfection."

Before you judge me, remember I'm the baker; and, I know what's best for my cookies.

Then how come you screw up?

"Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou?" - Isaiah 45:9

What?
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
airmax1227
Posts: 13,240
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8/4/2013 3:40:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/4/2013 3:36:32 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:29:35 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
and what's up with you using multiple accounts in this thread?

I have two accounts; one of which I never use. When I created this post, I accidentally signed into that account. When I realized it, I went back to using the account I normally use.

I see, you should deactivate that account then.
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AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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8/4/2013 3:42:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/4/2013 3:23:21 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:56:56 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:53:06 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:04:05 PM, santhony wrote:
I love to bake, but there are times I screw up. "No problem," I say to myself. "I know I left something out, and these cookies are going to turn out all wrong." So, instead of adding the missing ingredient in at the last minute, I stick the batch of cookies in the oven, regardless. However, when I go to take the cookies out the oven, I'm horrified by the way they turned out. "These cookies have disappointed me." I think to myself. "How dare they fall short of my expectations." I continue.

"I know what I'll do; I will return them to the oven and burn them to cinders. Therefore, the next batch will be more pleasing, having seen what becomes of those who fall short of my perfection."

Before you judge me, remember I'm the baker; and, I know what's best for my cookies.

Then how come you screw up?

This was my first thought...

How competent of a cookie creator can you possibly be if your first batch required destruction?

This seems to imply that "the creator" creates though trial and error...

The baker is an expert baker, with many years' experience. He knew exactly what he was doing the day he screwed up; but, remember we can't blame the baker for his screw ups.... The cookies must pay the price.... After all, they were complicit.

The baker screwed up on purpose? The baker is to blame. How did the cookies have anything to do with it? The baker should pay the price. What sort of mad situation occurs where the cookies get punished for the baker creating them incorrectly? ...
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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8/4/2013 3:45:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/4/2013 3:28:01 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:23:21 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:56:56 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:53:06 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:04:05 PM, santhony wrote:
I love to bake, but there are times I screw up. "No problem," I say to myself. "I know I left something out, and these cookies are going to turn out all wrong." So, instead of adding the missing ingredient in at the last minute, I stick the batch of cookies in the oven, regardless. However, when I go to take the cookies out the oven, I'm horrified by the way they turned out. "These cookies have disappointed me." I think to myself. "How dare they fall short of my expectations." I continue.

"I know what I'll do; I will return them to the oven and burn them to cinders. Therefore, the next batch will be more pleasing, having seen what becomes of those who fall short of my perfection."

Before you judge me, remember I'm the baker; and, I know what's best for my cookies.

Then how come you screw up?

This was my first thought...

How competent of a cookie creator can you possibly be if your first batch required destruction?

This seems to imply that "the creator" creates though trial and error...

The baker is an expert baker, with many years' experience. He knew exactly what he was doing the day he screwed up; but, remember we can't blame the baker for his screw ups.... The cookies must pay the price.... After all, they were complicit.

In the metaphor the cookies are inanimate and aren't sentient.. how could they be blamed for anything?

In the example of people, they may have been complicit, due to their free will (assuming you are granting this assumption), but any flaws in them were cooked into them by their creator.

If then the creator decides to destroy them because of their flaws, this seems to be pointing to an attempt towards trial and error by the creator, just as the metaphor seems to describe.

And if we can't blame the baker for baking bad cookies who can we blame? the cookies didn't bake themselves...

Whatever the creations are, sentient or otherwise, they are whatever the creator created them to be. They can have no more or no less than that which the creator gave them.
airmax1227
Posts: 13,240
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8/4/2013 3:45:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/4/2013 3:42:05 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:23:21 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:56:56 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:53:06 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:04:05 PM, santhony wrote:
I love to bake, but there are times I screw up. "No problem," I say to myself. "I know I left something out, and these cookies are going to turn out all wrong." So, instead of adding the missing ingredient in at the last minute, I stick the batch of cookies in the oven, regardless. However, when I go to take the cookies out the oven, I'm horrified by the way they turned out. "These cookies have disappointed me." I think to myself. "How dare they fall short of my expectations." I continue.

"I know what I'll do; I will return them to the oven and burn them to cinders. Therefore, the next batch will be more pleasing, having seen what becomes of those who fall short of my perfection."

Before you judge me, remember I'm the baker; and, I know what's best for my cookies.

Then how come you screw up?

This was my first thought...

How competent of a cookie creator can you possibly be if your first batch required destruction?

This seems to imply that "the creator" creates though trial and error...

The baker is an expert baker, with many years' experience. He knew exactly what he was doing the day he screwed up; but, remember we can't blame the baker for his screw ups.... The cookies must pay the price.... After all, they were complicit.

The baker screwed up on purpose? The baker is to blame. How did the cookies have anything to do with it? The baker should pay the price. What sort of mad situation occurs where the cookies get punished for the baker creating them incorrectly? ...

Well I think it makes sense that the cookies get punished (thrown away, destroyed) for being bad cookie (who would want to eat them?). But then I think one can easily justify firing the baker for being unable to bake proper cookies.
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AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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8/4/2013 3:46:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/4/2013 3:45:07 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:28:01 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:23:21 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:56:56 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:53:06 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:04:05 PM, santhony wrote:
I love to bake, but there are times I screw up. "No problem," I say to myself. "I know I left something out, and these cookies are going to turn out all wrong." So, instead of adding the missing ingredient in at the last minute, I stick the batch of cookies in the oven, regardless. However, when I go to take the cookies out the oven, I'm horrified by the way they turned out. "These cookies have disappointed me." I think to myself. "How dare they fall short of my expectations." I continue.

"I know what I'll do; I will return them to the oven and burn them to cinders. Therefore, the next batch will be more pleasing, having seen what becomes of those who fall short of my perfection."

Before you judge me, remember I'm the baker; and, I know what's best for my cookies.

Then how come you screw up?

This was my first thought...

How competent of a cookie creator can you possibly be if your first batch required destruction?

This seems to imply that "the creator" creates though trial and error...

The baker is an expert baker, with many years' experience. He knew exactly what he was doing the day he screwed up; but, remember we can't blame the baker for his screw ups.... The cookies must pay the price.... After all, they were complicit.

In the metaphor the cookies are inanimate and aren't sentient.. how could they be blamed for anything?

In the example of people, they may have been complicit, due to their free will (assuming you are granting this assumption), but any flaws in them were cooked into them by their creator.

If then the creator decides to destroy them because of their flaws, this seems to be pointing to an attempt towards trial and error by the creator, just as the metaphor seems to describe.

And if we can't blame the baker for baking bad cookies who can we blame? the cookies didn't bake themselves...

Whatever the creations are, sentient or otherwise, they are whatever the creator created them to be. They can have no more or no less than that which the creator gave them.

This is demonstratively incorrect.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
airmax1227
Posts: 13,240
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8/4/2013 3:48:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/4/2013 3:45:07 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:28:01 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:23:21 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:56:56 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:53:06 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:04:05 PM, santhony wrote:
I love to bake, but there are times I screw up. "No problem," I say to myself. "I know I left something out, and these cookies are going to turn out all wrong." So, instead of adding the missing ingredient in at the last minute, I stick the batch of cookies in the oven, regardless. However, when I go to take the cookies out the oven, I'm horrified by the way they turned out. "These cookies have disappointed me." I think to myself. "How dare they fall short of my expectations." I continue.

"I know what I'll do; I will return them to the oven and burn them to cinders. Therefore, the next batch will be more pleasing, having seen what becomes of those who fall short of my perfection."

Before you judge me, remember I'm the baker; and, I know what's best for my cookies.

Then how come you screw up?

This was my first thought...

How competent of a cookie creator can you possibly be if your first batch required destruction?

This seems to imply that "the creator" creates though trial and error...

The baker is an expert baker, with many years' experience. He knew exactly what he was doing the day he screwed up; but, remember we can't blame the baker for his screw ups.... The cookies must pay the price.... After all, they were complicit.

In the metaphor the cookies are inanimate and aren't sentient.. how could they be blamed for anything?

In the example of people, they may have been complicit, due to their free will (assuming you are granting this assumption), but any flaws in them were cooked into them by their creator.

If then the creator decides to destroy them because of their flaws, this seems to be pointing to an attempt towards trial and error by the creator, just as the metaphor seems to describe.

And if we can't blame the baker for baking bad cookies who can we blame? the cookies didn't bake themselves...

Whatever the creations are, sentient or otherwise, they are whatever the creator created them to be. They can have no more or no less than that which the creator gave them.

As true as this may be, if the creator destroyed them, he too thought they were flawed. If he just tries to create more cookies now, he's clearly baking by trial and error and is (as all bakers are) flawed.

I'm not really speaking to the greater meaning for all of this. I'm simply pointing out that this metaphor is clearly flawed.
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AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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8/4/2013 3:49:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/4/2013 3:45:49 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:42:05 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:23:21 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:56:56 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:53:06 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:04:05 PM, santhony wrote:
I love to bake, but there are times I screw up. "No problem," I say to myself. "I know I left something out, and these cookies are going to turn out all wrong." So, instead of adding the missing ingredient in at the last minute, I stick the batch of cookies in the oven, regardless. However, when I go to take the cookies out the oven, I'm horrified by the way they turned out. "These cookies have disappointed me." I think to myself. "How dare they fall short of my expectations." I continue.

"I know what I'll do; I will return them to the oven and burn them to cinders. Therefore, the next batch will be more pleasing, having seen what becomes of those who fall short of my perfection."

Before you judge me, remember I'm the baker; and, I know what's best for my cookies.

Then how come you screw up?

This was my first thought...

How competent of a cookie creator can you possibly be if your first batch required destruction?

This seems to imply that "the creator" creates though trial and error...

The baker is an expert baker, with many years' experience. He knew exactly what he was doing the day he screwed up; but, remember we can't blame the baker for his screw ups.... The cookies must pay the price.... After all, they were complicit.

The baker screwed up on purpose? The baker is to blame. How did the cookies have anything to do with it? The baker should pay the price. What sort of mad situation occurs where the cookies get punished for the baker creating them incorrectly? ...

Well I think it makes sense that the cookies get punished (thrown away, destroyed) for being bad cookie (who would want to eat them?). But then I think one can easily justify firing the baker for being unable to bake proper cookies.

Yeah, I guess.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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8/4/2013 7:02:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/4/2013 3:46:30 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:45:07 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:28:01 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:23:21 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:56:56 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:53:06 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:04:05 PM, santhony wrote:
I love to bake, but there are times I screw up. "No problem," I say to myself. "I know I left something out, and these cookies are going to turn out all wrong." So, instead of adding the missing ingredient in at the last minute, I stick the batch of cookies in the oven, regardless. However, when I go to take the cookies out the oven, I'm horrified by the way they turned out. "These cookies have disappointed me." I think to myself. "How dare they fall short of my expectations." I continue.

"I know what I'll do; I will return them to the oven and burn them to cinders. Therefore, the next batch will be more pleasing, having seen what becomes of those who fall short of my perfection."

Before you judge me, remember I'm the baker; and, I know what's best for my cookies.

Then how come you screw up?

This was my first thought...

How competent of a cookie creator can you possibly be if your first batch required destruction?

This seems to imply that "the creator" creates though trial and error...

The baker is an expert baker, with many years' experience. He knew exactly what he was doing the day he screwed up; but, remember we can't blame the baker for his screw ups.... The cookies must pay the price.... After all, they were complicit.

In the metaphor the cookies are inanimate and aren't sentient.. how could they be blamed for anything?

In the example of people, they may have been complicit, due to their free will (assuming you are granting this assumption), but any flaws in them were cooked into them by their creator.

If then the creator decides to destroy them because of their flaws, this seems to be pointing to an attempt towards trial and error by the creator, just as the metaphor seems to describe.

And if we can't blame the baker for baking bad cookies who can we blame? the cookies didn't bake themselves...

Whatever the creations are, sentient or otherwise, they are whatever the creator created them to be. They can have no more or no less than that which the creator gave them.

This is demonstratively incorrect.

From where do they attain that which the creator has not provided?
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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8/4/2013 7:06:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/4/2013 7:02:40 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:46:30 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:45:07 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:28:01 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:23:21 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:56:56 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:53:06 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:04:05 PM, santhony wrote:
I love to bake, but there are times I screw up. "No problem," I say to myself. "I know I left something out, and these cookies are going to turn out all wrong." So, instead of adding the missing ingredient in at the last minute, I stick the batch of cookies in the oven, regardless. However, when I go to take the cookies out the oven, I'm horrified by the way they turned out. "These cookies have disappointed me." I think to myself. "How dare they fall short of my expectations." I continue.

"I know what I'll do; I will return them to the oven and burn them to cinders. Therefore, the next batch will be more pleasing, having seen what becomes of those who fall short of my perfection."

Before you judge me, remember I'm the baker; and, I know what's best for my cookies.

Then how come you screw up?

This was my first thought...

How competent of a cookie creator can you possibly be if your first batch required destruction?

This seems to imply that "the creator" creates though trial and error...

The baker is an expert baker, with many years' experience. He knew exactly what he was doing the day he screwed up; but, remember we can't blame the baker for his screw ups.... The cookies must pay the price.... After all, they were complicit.

In the metaphor the cookies are inanimate and aren't sentient.. how could they be blamed for anything?

In the example of people, they may have been complicit, due to their free will (assuming you are granting this assumption), but any flaws in them were cooked into them by their creator.

If then the creator decides to destroy them because of their flaws, this seems to be pointing to an attempt towards trial and error by the creator, just as the metaphor seems to describe.

And if we can't blame the baker for baking bad cookies who can we blame? the cookies didn't bake themselves...

Whatever the creations are, sentient or otherwise, they are whatever the creator created them to be. They can have no more or no less than that which the creator gave them.

This is demonstratively incorrect.

From where do they attain that which the creator has not provided?

When the baker leaves the cookies out for a month and they go mouldy.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
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s-anthony
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8/4/2013 7:13:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/4/2013 3:48:39 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:45:07 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:28:01 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:23:21 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:56:56 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:53:06 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:04:05 PM, santhony wrote:
I love to bake, but there are times I screw up. "No problem," I say to myself. "I know I left something out, and these cookies are going to turn out all wrong." So, instead of adding the missing ingredient in at the last minute, I stick the batch of cookies in the oven, regardless. However, when I go to take the cookies out the oven, I'm horrified by the way they turned out. "These cookies have disappointed me." I think to myself. "How dare they fall short of my expectations." I continue.

"I know what I'll do; I will return them to the oven and burn them to cinders. Therefore, the next batch will be more pleasing, having seen what becomes of those who fall short of my perfection."

Before you judge me, remember I'm the baker; and, I know what's best for my cookies.

Then how come you screw up?

This was my first thought...

How competent of a cookie creator can you possibly be if your first batch required destruction?

This seems to imply that "the creator" creates though trial and error...

The baker is an expert baker, with many years' experience. He knew exactly what he was doing the day he screwed up; but, remember we can't blame the baker for his screw ups.... The cookies must pay the price.... After all, they were complicit.

In the metaphor the cookies are inanimate and aren't sentient.. how could they be blamed for anything?

In the example of people, they may have been complicit, due to their free will (assuming you are granting this assumption), but any flaws in them were cooked into them by their creator.

If then the creator decides to destroy them because of their flaws, this seems to be pointing to an attempt towards trial and error by the creator, just as the metaphor seems to describe.

And if we can't blame the baker for baking bad cookies who can we blame? the cookies didn't bake themselves...

Whatever the creations are, sentient or otherwise, they are whatever the creator created them to be. They can have no more or no less than that which the creator gave them.

As true as this may be, if the creator destroyed them, he too thought they were flawed. If he just tries to create more cookies now, he's clearly baking by trial and error and is (as all bakers are) flawed.

I'm not really speaking to the greater meaning for all of this. I'm simply pointing out that this metaphor is clearly flawed.

The baker knew the cookies were flawed and had the wherewithal to modify the ingredients before he stuck the cookies in the oven. So, no; I would not classify this as "trial and error". For me, "trial and error" speaks of ignorance; for instance, trying something new, hoping it will turn out right.
s-anthony
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8/4/2013 7:25:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/4/2013 7:06:47 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 7:02:40 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:46:30 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:45:07 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:28:01 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:23:21 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:56:56 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:53:06 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 2:04:05 PM, santhony wrote:
I love to bake, but there are times I screw up. "No problem," I say to myself. "I know I left something out, and these cookies are going to turn out all wrong." So, instead of adding the missing ingredient in at the last minute, I stick the batch of cookies in the oven, regardless. However, when I go to take the cookies out the oven, I'm horrified by the way they turned out. "These cookies have disappointed me." I think to myself. "How dare they fall short of my expectations." I continue.

"I know what I'll do; I will return them to the oven and burn them to cinders. Therefore, the next batch will be more pleasing, having seen what becomes of those who fall short of my perfection."

Before you judge me, remember I'm the baker; and, I know what's best for my cookies.

Then how come you screw up?

This was my first thought...

How competent of a cookie creator can you possibly be if your first batch required destruction?

This seems to imply that "the creator" creates though trial and error...

The baker is an expert baker, with many years' experience. He knew exactly what he was doing the day he screwed up; but, remember we can't blame the baker for his screw ups.... The cookies must pay the price.... After all, they were complicit.

In the metaphor the cookies are inanimate and aren't sentient.. how could they be blamed for anything?

In the example of people, they may have been complicit, due to their free will (assuming you are granting this assumption), but any flaws in them were cooked into them by their creator.

If then the creator decides to destroy them because of their flaws, this seems to be pointing to an attempt towards trial and error by the creator, just as the metaphor seems to describe.

And if we can't blame the baker for baking bad cookies who can we blame? the cookies didn't bake themselves...

Whatever the creations are, sentient or otherwise, they are whatever the creator created them to be. They can have no more or no less than that which the creator gave them.

This is demonstratively incorrect.

From where do they attain that which the creator has not provided?

When the baker leaves the cookies out for a month and they go mouldy.

Notice: my last response was not about a mere baker but the Creator; because, we went from speaking about cookies (which has a limited application) to speaking about sentient and non-sentient creations; which has a much broader scope.
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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8/4/2013 8:06:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/4/2013 7:25:36 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 7:06:47 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 7:02:40 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:46:30 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:45:07 PM, s-anthony wrote:

Whatever the creations are, sentient or otherwise, they are whatever the creator created them to be. They can have no more or no less than that which the creator gave them.

This is demonstratively incorrect.

From where do they attain that which the creator has not provided?

When the baker leaves the cookies out for a month and they go mouldy.

Notice: my last response was not about a mere baker but the Creator; because, we went from speaking about cookies (which has a limited application) to speaking about sentient and non-sentient creations; which has a much broader scope.

It depends what the creator is like.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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8/4/2013 8:28:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/4/2013 8:06:49 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 7:25:36 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 7:06:47 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 7:02:40 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:46:30 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:45:07 PM, s-anthony wrote:

Whatever the creations are, sentient or otherwise, they are whatever the creator created them to be. They can have no more or no less than that which the creator gave them.

This is demonstratively incorrect.

From where do they attain that which the creator has not provided?

When the baker leaves the cookies out for a month and they go mouldy.

Notice: my last response was not about a mere baker but the Creator; because, we went from speaking about cookies (which has a limited application) to speaking about sentient and non-sentient creations; which has a much broader scope.

It depends what the creator is like.

Think of the traditional Christian concept of God.
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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8/4/2013 8:35:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/4/2013 8:28:42 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 8:06:49 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 7:25:36 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 7:06:47 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 7:02:40 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:46:30 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/4/2013 3:45:07 PM, s-anthony wrote:

Whatever the creations are, sentient or otherwise, they are whatever the creator created them to be. They can have no more or no less than that which the creator gave them.

This is demonstratively incorrect.

From where do they attain that which the creator has not provided?

When the baker leaves the cookies out for a month and they go mouldy.

Notice: my last response was not about a mere baker but the Creator; because, we went from speaking about cookies (which has a limited application) to speaking about sentient and non-sentient creations; which has a much broader scope.

It depends what the creator is like.

Think of the traditional Christian concept of God.

Then it wouldn't make its creations incorrectly. Also we evolve.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!