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If created perfect as scriptures say, why wou

GreatestIam
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8/5/2013 3:51:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?

Did the Christian God create us sick and order us to be well?

Salvation can only be had by believers if they embrace barbaric human sacrifice and a God who will immorally have his own son murdered as a sacrifice to forgive sin when other more moral ways are preached in scriptures.

Matthew 7:17,18
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Matthew 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Christians would have us think that God, the good tree, --- produced corrupt fruit. Scriptures say that that is not possible. If you believe scriptures that say God is perfect that is.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

If God creates perfect works and souls, how can man not be perfect?

If perfect, why would we need salvation?

Regards
DL
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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8/5/2013 3:55:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Another inconsistency in Christianity... hmmmm.
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bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/5/2013 4:24:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 3:51:13 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?

Did the Christian God create us sick and order us to be well?



Salvation can only be had by believers if they embrace barbaric human sacrifice and a God who will immorally have his own son murdered as a sacrifice to forgive sin when other more moral ways are preached in scriptures.

Matthew 7:17,18
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Matthew 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Christians would have us think that God, the good tree, --- produced corrupt fruit. Scriptures say that that is not possible. If you believe scriptures that say God is perfect that is.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

If God creates perfect works and souls, how can man not be perfect?

If perfect, why would we need salvation?

Regards
DL

Salvation only means that there is a change of information from one age to the next. We're all made from the same "Christ" information without deception and this will continue on after the false information ( Lucifer and the beast ) is burned away with God's fire ( information that will remove Lucifer and the beast ). The end of this age is close now and in one hour after the earth begins to shake violently, there won't be any flesh on this earth to see the rest of the destruction. This will be the end of this age. Then on to the next when all the illusions, visions and dreams begin without deception.
sdavio
Posts: 1,798
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8/5/2013 7:12:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 7:01:25 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Who says we were created perfect?

If God is perfect, why would he create imperfect humans? He could have created no suffering - but instead created suffering. Doesn't that mean that God likes / wants suffering?
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx
Bullish
Posts: 3,527
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8/5/2013 7:12:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 4:24:18 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/5/2013 3:51:13 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?

Did the Christian God create us sick and order us to be well?


Salvation can only be had by believers if they embrace barbaric human sacrifice and a God who will immorally have his own son murdered as a sacrifice to forgive sin when other more moral ways are preached in scriptures.

Matthew 7:17,18
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Matthew 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Christians would have us think that God, the good tree, --- produced corrupt fruit. Scriptures say that that is not possible. If you believe scriptures that say God is perfect that is.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

If God creates perfect works and souls, how can man not be perfect?

If perfect, why would we need salvation?

Regards
DL

Salvation only means that there is a change of information from one age to the next. We're all made from the same "Christ" information without deception and this will continue on after the false information ( Lucifer and the beast ) is burned away with God's fire ( information that will remove Lucifer and the beast ). The end of this age is close now and in one hour after the earth begins to shake violently, there won't be any flesh on this earth to see the rest of the destruction. This will be the end of this age. Then on to the next when all the illusions, visions and dreams begin without deception.

So "Lucifer" huh... Yeah great theory..
0x5f3759df
Drayson
Posts: 288
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8/5/2013 7:13:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 7:01:25 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Who says we were created perfect?

That's one of the big central issues that collapses Judeo-Christian philosphy, in my opinion.

A creator who is a perfect being would be able to produce a perfect creation, so if we were NOT created perfect, then any imperfection must have been intended by the creator, making him directly responsible for any problems or suffering within that creation.

Which is something religious people have trouble rationalising
"I'm not saying I don't trust you...and I'm not saying I do. But I don't"

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Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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8/5/2013 7:17:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 3:51:13 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?

Did the Christian God create us sick and order us to be well?



Salvation can only be had by believers if they embrace barbaric human sacrifice and a God who will immorally have his own son murdered as a sacrifice to forgive sin when other more moral ways are preached in scriptures.

Matthew 7:17,18
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Matthew 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Christians would have us think that God, the good tree, --- produced corrupt fruit. Scriptures say that that is not possible. If you believe scriptures that say God is perfect that is.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

If God creates perfect works and souls, how can man not be perfect?

If perfect, why would we need salvation?

Regards
DL

God creation is as He intended it to be, It is perfect for it is according to what he planned. We would call a car perfect if it does exactly what is was meant to do. and call a dress perfect if it fits!! maybe you have other standards for perfect ?!
FrackJack
Posts: 1,392
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8/5/2013 7:27:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 7:13:53 PM, Drayson wrote:
At 8/5/2013 7:01:25 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Who says we were created perfect?

That's one of the big central issues that collapses Judeo-Christian philosphy, in my opinion.

A creator who is a perfect being would be able to produce a perfect creation, so if we were NOT created perfect, then any imperfection must have been intended by the creator, making him directly responsible for any problems or suffering within that creation.

Which is something religious people have trouble rationalising

Bingo. God either intended evil to happen, God is not Tri-Omni or he doesn't exist.
: At 8/8/2013 6:15:09 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
: The idiots are rebelling.

http://i.imgur.com...
FrackJack
Posts: 1,392
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8/5/2013 7:28:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I once heard someone say that God was justified because he made a mistake. I tablefaced so hard.
: At 8/8/2013 6:15:09 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
: The idiots are rebelling.

http://i.imgur.com...
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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8/5/2013 7:54:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 7:13:53 PM, Drayson wrote:
At 8/5/2013 7:01:25 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Who says we were created perfect?

That's one of the big central issues that collapses Judeo-Christian philosphy, in my opinion.

A creator who is a perfect being would be able to produce a perfect creation, so if we were NOT created perfect, then any imperfection must have been intended by the creator, making him directly responsible for any problems or suffering within that creation.


Which is something religious people have trouble rationalising

Not in my estimation. I was gonna type out a long post, but I'll just let Thomas Talbott say it for me since he has basically the same answer as I would give.

"Felix Culpa" or Creation in Two Stages
But why, one may wonder at this point, would God start us out with so many imperfections and moral weaknesses and in a context in which our wills are already in bondage to sin? Why bring us into being as sinners and then go to the trouble of saving us from our sin? Why not simply bypass all the misery and suffering along the way and bring us into being as perfected saints in the first place?
The assumption behind such questions is that, if he so desired, God could have created each of us (or perhaps a different set of persons) instantaneously as self-aware, language using, fully rational, and morally mature individuals who are from the beginning perfectly fit for intimacy with God. But why suppose that to be metaphysically possible at all? For my own part, I seriously doubt that God could have created any persons at all without satisfying certain metaphysically necessary conditions of their coming into being, and the most important of these would be "an initial separation from God," which I have elsewhere described in the following way:
By this admittedly vague expression, I mean to imply, among other things, a severance from God"s direct causal control on the metaphysical level and an experience of frustrated desire and frustrated will"the sort of thing that naturally leads to a sense of estrangement and alienation"on the psychological level. If these should be metaphysically necessary conditions of our creation, then our very creation would virtually guarantee the occurrence of error and misguided choices.37
If God had no choice, provided he wanted to create any persons at all,"but to permit their embryonic minds to emerge and to begin functioning on their own in a context of ambiguity, ignorance, and indeterminism,"38 then the creation of a person is, of necessity, a much more complicated and time-consuming process, even for an omnipotent being, than one might have imagined. And if the required context is one that virtually guarantees erroneous judgments and misguided choices (perhaps even an initial bondage of the will to sin, as Paul understood it), then God faces the following dilemma in creation: Some of the very conditions essential to our emergence as rational individuals distinct from God are themselves obstacles to perfect fellowship (or union) with him, and these cannot be overcome until after we have already emerged as a center of consciousness distinct from God"s own consciousness.
Of course, I might be mistaken in my conception of what is, and is not, metaphysically possible in the matter of God"s creating persons distinct from himself. But even if I am mistaken, the process by which we humans in fact emerge in this earthly life and develop into rational agents is indeed both complicated and time consuming. So if one supposes that God exists at all, then one must also suppose, at the very least, that God had good reasons to permit our embryonic minds to emerge in a context of ambiguity and ignorance. And Paul clearly embraced that idea in any case. For he clearly taught that God employs a two-stage process, or two Adams as he calls them, in creating Sons and Daughters. As I have put it elsewhere:

The first Adam, according to Paul, "was from the earth, a man of dust" and "became a living being"; the second was not from the earth, bu"from heaven" and "became a life-giving spirit" (I Cor. 15:45 & 47). The first Adam thus represents the first stage in the creation of God"s children: the emergence of individual human consciousness in a context of ambiguity, illusion, sin, and death; the second Adam, or Jesus Christ, represents the second stage: the divine power that successfully overcomes all sin and death and therefore all separation from God, so that the true Sons and Daughters, or the true creations of God, can emerge.39
Paul also wrote: "it is not the spiritual that is first, but the physical [i.e., that which pertains to our animalistic and sensuous nature], and then the spiritual."40 And though he nowhere used the language of necessary and sufficient conditions, he seems clearly to have held that the first stage of creation"namely, our emergence from the dust of the earth in a context of ambiguity, illusion, sin, and death"is a necessary condition of the second, wherein God reconciles us to himself and perfects as saints.

So interpreted, Paul"s vision of creation also carries an important implication for Alvin Plantinga"s recently formulated Felix Culpa Theodicy.41 According to Plantinga, human sinfulness is a "fortunate fault" in the sense that it makes possible the great goods of redemption and atonement; so, because God wanted to actualize a world that includes these great goods, he chose to actualize one that includes human sin, indeed lots of it. For sin is obviously a necessary condition of redemption from sin or of an atonement for it. Plantinga also anticipated the objection, which others have subsequently raised,42 that such a theodicy makes God seem "too much like a father who throws his children into the river so that he can then heroically rescue them, or a doctor who first spreads a horrifying disease so that he can then display enormous virtue in fighting it in heroic disregard of his own safety and fatigue."43 But if our sinful condition, or even an initial bondage of the will to sin, is an unavoidable consequence of conditions essential to our creation, then our Creator need be nothing like the father or the doctor in the above examples. He is not, first of all, the direct cause of our sin; hence, he is nothing like a father who throws his children into a river or a doctor who spreads a horrifying disease. And if, as I have suggested, conditions that virtually guarantee sin, error, and spiritual death are essential to the emergence of distinct persons, then it seems overwhelmingly probable that any worthwhile world within God"s power to actualize will include these great enemies as well as a rescue of God"s loved ones from them.

Beyond that, Paul also insisted upon the glorious truth that all of those who participate in the first stage of creation will likewise participate in the second and will thus experience in the end the "towering goods" of redemption and atonement, as Plantinga calls them. Nor do I see how Paul might have expressed himself any more plainly than this: "For God has imprisoned all [humans] in disobedience so that he may be merciful to [them] all."44"

http://www.willamette.edu...
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Naysayer
Posts: 746
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8/5/2013 10:09:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Ephesians 3:10 also states in no uncertain terms that there is a bigger purpose in our creation than just mass sadism. It was to prove God supremely wise to the principalities in heaven.

There's also the fact that even if God created man with the ability to sin, that doesn't mean that man has to go to hell. Jesus Christ is the lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world. The grace of God hath appeared to all men. Every man has the opportunity to choose faith and obedience to God and get to heaven. God didn't create hell for us, it was for Satan and those angels that followed him.

I will admit that there isn't enough information to discuss the nature of Satan fully. I think there's a lot of back story that we just aren't aware of. That doesn't mean that God is at fault in it. Given the scope of the plan of our creation I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

It should be noted that God willingly takes full responsibility for creation in Isaiah 45:7, including the evil that occurs as any sovereign ethically should.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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8/5/2013 11:04:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 10:09:28 PM, Naysayer wrote:

It should be noted that God willingly takes full responsibility for creation in Isaiah 45:7, including the evil that occurs as any sovereign ethically should.

Are you saying God is the author of sin/evil?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Naysayer
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8/6/2013 7:27:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 11:04:19 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/5/2013 10:09:28 PM, Naysayer wrote:

It should be noted that God willingly takes full responsibility for creation in Isaiah 45:7, including the evil that occurs as any sovereign ethically should.

Are you saying God is the author of sin/evil?

I'm pretty sure what I said was this:

I will admit that there isn't enough information to discuss the nature of Satan fully. I think there's a lot of back story that we just aren't aware of. That doesn't mean that God is at fault in it. Given the scope of the plan of our creation I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
bulproof
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8/6/2013 7:32:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 10:09:28 PM, Naysayer wrote:
Ephesians 3:10 also states in no uncertain terms that there is a bigger purpose in our creation than just mass sadism. It was to prove God supremely wise to the principalities in heaven.

There's also the fact that even if God created man with the ability to sin, that doesn't mean that man has to go to hell. Jesus Christ is the lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world. The grace of God hath appeared to all men. Every man has the opportunity to choose faith and obedience to God and get to heaven. God didn't create hell for us, it was for Satan and those angels that followed him.

I will admit that there isn't enough information to discuss the nature of Satan fully. I think there's a lot of back story that we just aren't aware of. That doesn't mean that God is at fault in it. Given the scope of the plan of our creation I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

It should be noted that God willingly takes full responsibility for creation in Isaiah 45:7, including the evil that occurs as any sovereign ethically should.

I don't see mention of evil in that verse.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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8/6/2013 7:54:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
God created the Human body to work independently from Himself. The flesh brings forth fruit from the flesh, in other words you get what you get, you get your physical makeup from your genealogy ect. The things that we inherit and can inherit from God are spiritual things , the makeup of our spirit (which is our final body) and qualities within. John 3:3-6, 1 Corinthians 2:10-14.

I've said it a million times lol, evil is the result of choices, it is not an entity, it is a result. Just like I could go outside my house right now and "create" some evil whenever I want, or I could just remain neutral and make good choices. The confusion is coming from the "Calvinist" perspective that God orchestrates EVERYTHING including peoples decisions and that such violent actions that occur must in some way have a good purpose. This is a lie and defeats the purpose of God giving us the ability to impact our surroundings through our choices, whether for good or bad. OF COURSE their reasonings are accompanied by scriptures, but then again so is every other wacko theory and every religious person on here.
God does not have to control and manipulate our choices to be "sovereign", that's just a stupid smoke screen. God IS sovereign regardless of what we decide to do.

The potential for evil was there the moment God created a being that could choose independently from Himself. I think that God wanted it to be that way to truly make us free creatures. Animals in a way don't have the ability to do what we are capable of, they just do what they are supposed to do (generally) and everything goes smooth but we have been given a gift that comes with serious responsibilities, and that is free choice regardless of the outcome.
We already know according to scripture that "evil" was around well before Humans, it was not something God just decided to poof into existence just for us. Evil came with free creatures. Our hope is that we will cover ourselves with God's influence and we have been given a safe place, but that place resides within Him.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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8/6/2013 9:52:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 3:51:13 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?

Did the Christian God create us sick and order us to be well?



Salvation can only be had by believers if they embrace barbaric human sacrifice and a God who will immorally have his own son murdered as a sacrifice to forgive sin when other more moral ways are preached in scriptures.

Matthew 7:17,18
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Matthew 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Christians would have us think that God, the good tree, --- produced corrupt fruit. Scriptures say that that is not possible. If you believe scriptures that say God is perfect that is.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

If God creates perfect works and souls, how can man not be perfect?

If perfect, why would we need salvation?

Regards
DL

Sorry but that is another typically stupid question. We all should know why we need salvation, if we know anything about Scripture at all.

You know as well as I do that we were created perfect, but became imperfect when Adam sinned.

We need redemption because having inherited imperfection from our forefather Adam we cannot help but sin at times, because I Scripture tells us "the inclination of the heart of mankind is bad from his youth up".

On the site on which you and I used to clash a while ago, someone there, in fact someone else, if you get my meaning, pointed out to me that perfect means complete in one of its meanings. That actually makes a lot of sense when applied to humanity.

Since Adam sinned we are no longer complete, maybe it's because we're missing what the tree of life would have supplied, but we are no longer complete.

When we are resurrected into perfect human bodies whatever is now missing will once again be there and presumably there will be another tree of life, whatever that actually was. Then being complete we will once again be sinless, unless we actively choose otherwise, as Adam did.

Unlike what some people, who really should know better, choose to believe the events in the garden of Eden not only made us imperfect, but in the other sense of the word also left us in complete. We cannot ever be complete again without God's intervention, which will happen in the resurrection.

I'm not quite sure how it will work for those who survive Armageddon. Maybe they will simply be given access to a new tree of life, or the missing part will be inserted as he was into the egg in Mary's womb. To tell the truth I don't really care how it happens, I know it will, that all matters.

And no, I have no doubts at all, through Scripture and the age of holy spirit I have come to know God probably as well as any imperfect human being could.

And what I know I love very deeply.
GreatestIam
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8/6/2013 11:00:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 4:24:18 PM, bornofgod wrote:


Salvation only means that there is a change of information from one age to the next. We're all made from the same "Christ" information without deception and this will continue on after the false information ( Lucifer and the beast ) is burned away with God's fire ( information that will remove Lucifer and the beast ). The end of this age is close now and in one hour after the earth begins to shake violently, there won't be any flesh on this earth to see the rest of the destruction. This will be the end of this age. Then on to the next when all the illusions, visions and dreams begin without deception.

There is only one answer for this.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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8/6/2013 11:06:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 7:01:25 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Who says we were created perfect?

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

Are you not one of God's works?

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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8/6/2013 11:09:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 7:13:53 PM, Drayson wrote:
At 8/5/2013 7:01:25 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Who says we were created perfect?

That's one of the big central issues that collapses Judeo-Christian philosphy, in my opinion.

A creator who is a perfect being would be able to produce a perfect creation, so if we were NOT created perfect, then any imperfection must have been intended by the creator, making him directly responsible for any problems or suffering within that creation.

Which is something religious people have trouble rationalising

There are reasons for that.

"Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding."

"Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has."
Martin Luther "

It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.
Jonathan Swift

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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8/6/2013 11:15:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 7:17:18 PM, Fruitytree wrote:


God creation is as He intended it to be, It is perfect for it is according to what he planned. We would call a car perfect if it does exactly what is was meant to do. and call a dress perfect if it fits!! maybe you have other standards for perfect ?!

We are about on the right page in terms of definitions.

From what you say, God created Hitler and other users of genocide perfect.

Is that right and can you tell us why God creates such killers rapists, etc.?

An if he does, is he not culpable for their crimes?

If you intentionally raised your child to be a rapist, would you be culpable and responsible for his crimes?

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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8/6/2013 11:19:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 10:09:28 PM, Naysayer wrote:
Ephesians 3:10 also states in no uncertain terms that there is a bigger purpose in our creation than just mass sadism. It was to prove God supremely wise to the principalities in heaven.

There's also the fact that even if God created man with the ability to sin, that doesn't mean that man has to go to hell. Jesus Christ is the lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world. The grace of God hath appeared to all men. Every man has the opportunity to choose faith and obedience to God and get to heaven. God didn't create hell for us, it was for Satan and those angels that followed him.

I will admit that there isn't enough information to discuss the nature of Satan fully. I think there's a lot of back story that we just aren't aware of. That doesn't mean that God is at fault in it. Given the scope of the plan of our creation I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

It should be noted that God willingly takes full responsibility for creation in Isaiah 45:7, including the evil that occurs as any sovereign ethically should.

God takes responsibility by punishing us.

Now that is really taking responsibility.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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8/6/2013 11:23:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/6/2013 7:54:10 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
God created the Human body to work independently from Himself. The flesh brings forth fruit from the flesh, in other words you get what you get, you get your physical makeup from your genealogy ect. The things that we inherit and can inherit from God are spiritual things , the makeup of our spirit (which is our final body) and qualities within. John 3:3-6, 1 Corinthians 2:10-14.

I've said it a million times lol, evil is the result of choices, it is not an entity, it is a result. Just like I could go outside my house right now and "create" some evil whenever I want, or I could just remain neutral and make good choices. The confusion is coming from the "Calvinist" perspective that God orchestrates EVERYTHING including peoples decisions and that such violent actions that occur must in some way have a good purpose. This is a lie and defeats the purpose of God giving us the ability to impact our surroundings through our choices, whether for good or bad. OF COURSE their reasonings are accompanied by scriptures, but then again so is every other wacko theory and every religious person on here.
God does not have to control and manipulate our choices to be "sovereign", that's just a stupid smoke screen. God IS sovereign regardless of what we decide to do.

The potential for evil was there the moment God created a being that could choose independently from Himself. I think that God wanted it to be that way to truly make us free creatures. Animals in a way don't have the ability to do what we are capable of, they just do what they are supposed to do (generally) and everything goes smooth but we have been given a gift that comes with serious responsibilities, and that is free choice regardless of the outcome.
We already know according to scripture that "evil" was around well before Humans, it was not something God just decided to poof into existence just for us. Evil came with free creatures. Our hope is that we will cover ourselves with God's influence and we have been given a safe place, but that place resides within Him.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or " it"s all man"s fault".

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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8/6/2013 11:30:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/6/2013 9:52:09 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Adam sinned?

How can a perfect creation sin?

If a perfect creation can sin then so can God. Right?

What sin exactly are you referring to and does one not have to know what good and evil are before they can choose evil and sin?

Is becoming as God a sin?
That is what Adam did according to God.

Regards
DL
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/6/2013 12:46:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 7:01:25 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Who says we were created perfect?

God says that he created man in His image, which is the Truth.

If the Truth isn't perfect, then tell me why the word "perfect" came into our language?
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/6/2013 12:54:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 7:12:13 PM, sdavio wrote:
At 8/5/2013 7:01:25 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Who says we were created perfect?

If God is perfect, why would he create imperfect humans? He could have created no suffering - but instead created suffering. Doesn't that mean that God likes / wants suffering?

God created the world delusion called Lucifer and the beast to keep His people from knowing who He is. This delusion is the world we see, hear, taste, smell, touch and the flesh we're using to experience this deception.

Don't worry. God's plan is to destroy this world and then we'll all wake up in the next age called the New Heaven and Earth. We'll never be deceived again and death of the flesh won't exist. We won't understand what decay and destruction is, or disease, wars, accidents, pestilence, etc.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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8/6/2013 6:32:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/6/2013 11:15:02 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 8/5/2013 7:17:18 PM, Fruitytree wrote:


God creation is as He intended it to be, It is perfect for it is according to what he planned. We would call a car perfect if it does exactly what is was meant to do. and call a dress perfect if it fits!! maybe you have other standards for perfect ?!

We are about on the right page in terms of definitions.

From what you say, God created Hitler and other users of genocide perfect.

Is that right and can you tell us why God creates such killers rapists, etc.?

An if he does, is he not culpable for their crimes?

If you intentionally raised your child to be a rapist, would you be culpable and responsible for his crimes?

Regards
DL

I will tell you how perfect is God creation, He created man with free will, free will means man can obey God and can sin, that's how perfect! an is not forced to obey like angels who never sin (they are perfect too for they are what they're meant to be) and whatever God creates is just perfect, there is no creator like Him.

You are confused because you think perfect = absolutely good, but that definition is false, perfect = complete in its nature.
Naysayer
Posts: 746
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8/6/2013 6:34:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/6/2013 7:32:24 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/5/2013 10:09:28 PM, Naysayer wrote:
Ephesians 3:10 also states in no uncertain terms that there is a bigger purpose in our creation than just mass sadism. It was to prove God supremely wise to the principalities in heaven.

There's also the fact that even if God created man with the ability to sin, that doesn't mean that man has to go to hell. Jesus Christ is the lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world. The grace of God hath appeared to all men. Every man has the opportunity to choose faith and obedience to God and get to heaven. God didn't create hell for us, it was for Satan and those angels that followed him.

I will admit that there isn't enough information to discuss the nature of Satan fully. I think there's a lot of back story that we just aren't aware of. That doesn't mean that God is at fault in it. Given the scope of the plan of our creation I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

It should be noted that God willingly takes full responsibility for creation in Isaiah 45:7, including the evil that occurs as any sovereign ethically should.

I don't see mention of evil in that verse.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Naysayer
Posts: 746
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8/6/2013 6:40:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/6/2013 11:19:55 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 8/5/2013 10:09:28 PM, Naysayer wrote:
Ephesians 3:10 also states in no uncertain terms that there is a bigger purpose in our creation than just mass sadism. It was to prove God supremely wise to the principalities in heaven.

There's also the fact that even if God created man with the ability to sin, that doesn't mean that man has to go to hell. Jesus Christ is the lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world. The grace of God hath appeared to all men. Every man has the opportunity to choose faith and obedience to God and get to heaven. God didn't create hell for us, it was for Satan and those angels that followed him.

I will admit that there isn't enough information to discuss the nature of Satan fully. I think there's a lot of back story that we just aren't aware of. That doesn't mean that God is at fault in it. Given the scope of the plan of our creation I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

It should be noted that God willingly takes full responsibility for creation in Isaiah 45:7, including the evil that occurs as any sovereign ethically should.

God takes responsibility by punishing us.

Now that is really taking responsibility.

Regards
DL

Again folk attack the God of the Bible and his judgment while completely ignoring that He has provided a way of escape. Your problem is not his punishment, which He has already poured out on his son for you. It's that you have to submit to him and confess your sins and that's what you truly cannot tolerate. That's what's eating all you atheists' lunch on this site. You have no reason to be here except to mock the God you claim you don't believe because you know there's coming a day of judgment.

It doesn't have to be that way. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved
bulproof
Posts: 25,260
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8/7/2013 1:29:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/6/2013 6:40:00 PM, Naysayer wrote:
At 8/6/2013 11:19:55 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 8/5/2013 10:09:28 PM, Naysayer wrote:
Ephesians 3:10 also states in no uncertain terms that there is a bigger purpose in our creation than just mass sadism. It was to prove God supremely wise to the principalities in heaven.

There's also the fact that even if God created man with the ability to sin, that doesn't mean that man has to go to hell. Jesus Christ is the lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world. The grace of God hath appeared to all men. Every man has the opportunity to choose faith and obedience to God and get to heaven. God didn't create hell for us, it was for Satan and those angels that followed him.

I will admit that there isn't enough information to discuss the nature of Satan fully. I think there's a lot of back story that we just aren't aware of. That doesn't mean that God is at fault in it. Given the scope of the plan of our creation I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

It should be noted that God willingly takes full responsibility for creation in Isaiah 45:7, including the evil that occurs as any sovereign ethically should.

God takes responsibility by punishing us.

Now that is really taking responsibility.

Regards
DL

Again folk attack the God of the Bible and his judgment while completely ignoring that He has provided a way of escape. Your problem is not his punishment, which He has already poured out on his son for you. It's that you have to submit to him and confess your sins and that's what you truly cannot tolerate. That's what's eating all you atheists' lunch on this site. You have no reason to be here except to mock the God you claim you don't believe because you know there's coming a day of judgment.

It doesn't have to be that way. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved
Well no actually. I'm here to tell you that life is for living and none of the christian gods or anybody elses gods exist. You need to let go of your fear of death and embrace life, it's all you've got. An afterlife is a nonsensical fantasy that avails you of nothing. If there was a creator of the time/space continuum why would it give a fat rats clacker about you and your unrealistic wish to live forever. Reality is often harsh but the beautiful bits have the capacity to blot out the harshness if you let them. Worshiping a genocidal, hateful, jealous, spiteful god created by men and trying to pretend that you would want to spend eternity with such a monster is just wasting your life.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin