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Is atheism the fault of the atheists?

drafterman
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8/7/2013 10:26:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The predominant attitude I see toward atheists is that it is our fault, that we are somehow culpable for our atheism to the degree that we should be held accountable for it, in the same vein as if we knowingly, and with malice aforethought, committed a crime.

Is there any theist here willing to elaborate and justify this position?
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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8/7/2013 10:42:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 10:26:51 AM, drafterman wrote:
The predominant attitude I see toward atheists is that it is our fault, that we are somehow culpable for our atheism to the degree that we should be held accountable for it, in the same vein as if we knowingly, and with malice aforethought, committed a crime.

Is there any theist here willing to elaborate and justify this position?

What are you actually saying,? Each one of us is responsible for our own actions, weather we choose to believe or not believe, As far as condemning somebody an saying it's their fault for being a non believer, is a little bit abstract.
johnlubba
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8/7/2013 10:44:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
What would you like to hear? that if you choose to reject God and do not have a relationship as others do, then it's your fault, there I said it.
drafterman
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8/7/2013 11:13:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 10:44:26 AM, johnlubba wrote:
What would you like to hear? that if you choose to reject God and do not have a relationship as others do, then it's your fault, there I said it.

I'd like to hear your justification and elaboration for this assignment of blame. You know, like I explicitly and clearly said in my OP.

Consider:

I wouldn't blame ancient Egyptians for not knowing about quarks. If I was transported to that time, and had the appropriate language ability, I still wouldn't blame them for not believing about quarks, even if I dictated a physics textbook to them.

So, while it would be accurate to say that "chose" to reject quarks, I don't think any rational being would attribute blame to them for that "choice."
bulproof
Posts: 25,263
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8/7/2013 11:34:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 10:44:26 AM, johnlubba wrote:
What would you like to hear? that if you choose to reject God and do not have a relationship as others do, then it's your fault, there I said it.

Do you go to titty bars together or is the relationship still waiting? Maybe you just hang out and drink, or do you have like feelings for him. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Here's a little heads up (oh dear) real relationships are not one sided. Worship not required or you get killed, oh wait you get killed anyway even with worship. Bugger.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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8/7/2013 11:55:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 11:13:02 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/7/2013 10:44:26 AM, johnlubba wrote:
What would you like to hear? that if you choose to reject God and do not have a relationship as others do, then it's your fault, there I said it.

I'd like to hear your justification and elaboration for this assignment of blame. You know, like I explicitly and clearly said in my OP.

Consider:

I wouldn't blame ancient Egyptians for not knowing about quarks. If I was transported to that time, and had the appropriate language ability, I still wouldn't blame them for not believing about quarks, even if I dictated a physics textbook to them.

So, while it would be accurate to say that "chose" to reject quarks, I don't think any rational being would attribute blame to them for that "choice."

I have no real interest in this topic right now, it's very vague. Also I was telling you what you want to hear not what I really think, although it's close to what I think, it's not as straight forward.
johnlubba
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8/7/2013 11:57:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Simply put, If God exists and understands everyone's heart and soul, then by rejecting God you are to blame for losing out on what could be the greatest gift and experience of all time.
johnlubba
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8/7/2013 12:00:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 11:57:08 AM, johnlubba wrote:
Simply put, If God exists and understands everyone's heart and soul, then by rejecting God you are to blame for losing out on what could be the greatest gift and experience of all time.

But it's not like God casts blame he just say's I'm here come and relate with me through devotion, it's up to you.

I look upon all creatures equally; none are less dear to me and none more dear. But those who worship me with love live in me, and I come to life in them.

Bhagavad Gita.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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8/7/2013 12:08:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 11:13:02 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/7/2013 10:44:26 AM, johnlubba wrote:
What would you like to hear? that if you choose to reject God and do not have a relationship as others do, then it's your fault, there I said it.

I'd like to hear your justification and elaboration for this assignment of blame. You know, like I explicitly and clearly said in my OP.

Consider:

I wouldn't blame ancient Egyptians for not knowing about quarks. If I was transported to that time, and had the appropriate language ability, I still wouldn't blame them for not believing about quarks, even if I dictated a physics textbook to them.

So, while it would be accurate to say that "chose" to reject quarks, I don't think any rational being would attribute blame to them for that "choice."

Some Atheists like to play games and use hypotheticals to evade judgement but it is THEMSELVES who will be accountable for what they knew and did, it does not matter what somebody else like an "ancient Egyptian" believed or did. Why bother to live by hypotheticals when it's impossible to find an answer seeing how it is that nobody will ever know how God decides to judge souls when they die. That is why it is important that we look within ourselves and be sure that we have done all we can and held nothing from God or harbored feelings against Him.

The question is, is what knowledge are YOU aware of and what have YOU done.
Proverbs 3:1-12, Isaiah 55:6-9, Matthew 6:33
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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8/7/2013 12:21:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think atheism is an affirmative position where it shouldn't rightly be. As I said to mattrodstrom, if you didn't know if it was going to rain tomorrow, would you identify yourself as someone who didn't think it was going to rain tomorrow? The title of agnosticism seems very much adequate as regards sense, not to confuse nor offer any firm suggestion that 'nothing matters.'
AnDoctuir
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8/7/2013 12:23:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Lack of belief fits squarely into agnosticism, so give the 'atheism is lack of belief' bit a rest. Your position is to be taken as affirming God's nonexistence.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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8/7/2013 12:27:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 12:21:38 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
I think atheism is an affirmative position where it shouldn't rightly be. As I said to mattrodstrom, if you didn't know if it was going to rain tomorrow, would you identify yourself as someone who didn't think it was going to rain tomorrow? The title of agnosticism seems very much adequate as regards sense, not to confuse nor offer any firm suggestion that 'nothing matters.'

Except we know that rain is a plausible answer. We know it happens. It's a thing which we know to exist.

We know no such thing for god. It's more akin to saying "If you didn't know it was going to rain naked women tomorrow, would you identify yourself as someone who didn't think it was going to rain naked women tomorrow?" After all, you can't prove it won't; you're not omniscient.
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bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/7/2013 12:28:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 10:26:51 AM, drafterman wrote:
The predominant attitude I see toward atheists is that it is our fault, that we are somehow culpable for our atheism to the degree that we should be held accountable for it, in the same vein as if we knowingly, and with malice aforethought, committed a crime.

Is there any theist here willing to elaborate and justify this position?

You can blame everything that happens in this world on our Creator who planned this delusion we're all in.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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8/7/2013 12:28:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 12:08:00 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/7/2013 11:13:02 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/7/2013 10:44:26 AM, johnlubba wrote:
What would you like to hear? that if you choose to reject God and do not have a relationship as others do, then it's your fault, there I said it.

I'd like to hear your justification and elaboration for this assignment of blame. You know, like I explicitly and clearly said in my OP.

Consider:

I wouldn't blame ancient Egyptians for not knowing about quarks. If I was transported to that time, and had the appropriate language ability, I still wouldn't blame them for not believing about quarks, even if I dictated a physics textbook to them.

So, while it would be accurate to say that "chose" to reject quarks, I don't think any rational being would attribute blame to them for that "choice."

Some Atheists like to play games and use hypotheticals to evade judgement but it is THEMSELVES who will be accountable for what they knew and did, it does not matter what somebody else like an "ancient Egyptian" believed or did. Why bother to live by hypotheticals when it's impossible to find an answer seeing how it is that nobody will ever know how God decides to judge souls when they die. That is why it is important that we look within ourselves and be sure that we have done all we can and held nothing from God or harbored feelings against Him.

The question is, is what knowledge are YOU aware of and what have YOU done.
Proverbs 3:1-12, Isaiah 55:6-9, Matthew 6:33

You said,

seeing how it is that nobody will ever know how God decides to judge souls when they die.

So then how can there be any question of what knowledge or how aware you are.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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8/7/2013 12:29:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
We know no such thing as God? Are you sure bro? We've not been crying out to him in huge numbers for the entirety of our existence?
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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8/7/2013 12:30:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 12:28:19 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/7/2013 10:26:51 AM, drafterman wrote:
The predominant attitude I see toward atheists is that it is our fault, that we are somehow culpable for our atheism to the degree that we should be held accountable for it, in the same vein as if we knowingly, and with malice aforethought, committed a crime.

Is there any theist here willing to elaborate and justify this position?

You can blame everything that happens in this world on our Creator who planned this delusion we're all in.

That's a very remarkable statement.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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8/7/2013 12:32:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
As I said in my atheism thread, everyone is born into God; it's just that it then comes down to how you view that God.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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8/7/2013 12:33:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 12:29:21 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
We know no such thing as God? Are you sure bro? We've not been crying out to him in huge numbers for the entirety of our existence?

Well, 1, that does literally nothing to establish actual existence or plausibility. 2, no, people have been crying out for various gods "for the entirety of our existence".

I may as well say that because there's the song "It's Raining Men" (by the Weather Girls), therefore my "raining naked women" prediction is perfectly plausible.
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AnDoctuir
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8/7/2013 12:33:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Further, atheism will never effectively combat religion and for obvious reasons and so the title is a nonsensical one, just to purvey hatred really.
bladerunner060
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8/7/2013 12:34:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 12:32:01 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
As I said in my atheism thread, everyone is born into God; it's just that it then comes down to how you view that God.

You were soundly defeated in your attempts to justify that claim. Repeating it doesn't make it more true.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
bulproof
Posts: 25,263
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8/7/2013 12:34:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 12:27:20 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/7/2013 12:21:38 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
I think atheism is an affirmative position where it shouldn't rightly be. As I said to mattrodstrom, if you didn't know if it was going to rain tomorrow, would you identify yourself as someone who didn't think it was going to rain tomorrow? The title of agnosticism seems very much adequate as regards sense, not to confuse nor offer any firm suggestion that 'nothing matters.'

Except we know that rain is a plausible answer. We know it happens. It's a thing which we know to exist.

We know no such thing for god. It's more akin to saying "If you didn't know it was going to rain naked women tomorrow, would you identify yourself as someone who didn't think it was going to rain naked women tomorrow?" After all, you can't prove it won't; you're not omniscient.

Yeah but neither is their god. He didn't even know that Adam and Steve were gonna tango with Luci.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
AnDoctuir
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8/7/2013 12:36:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 12:34:11 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/7/2013 12:32:01 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
As I said in my atheism thread, everyone is born into God; it's just that it then comes down to how you view that God.

You were soundly defeated in your attempts to justify that claim. Repeating it doesn't make it more true.

No I wasn't. Do you believe there will ever be complete sense made of the universe or that it will always remain a miracle? The concept of God is a much more reasonably conceived concept than that of naked ladies raining from the sky bro.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/7/2013 12:37:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 12:30:58 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 8/7/2013 12:28:19 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/7/2013 10:26:51 AM, drafterman wrote:
The predominant attitude I see toward atheists is that it is our fault, that we are somehow culpable for our atheism to the degree that we should be held accountable for it, in the same vein as if we knowingly, and with malice aforethought, committed a crime.

Is there any theist here willing to elaborate and justify this position?

You can blame everything that happens in this world on our Creator who planned this delusion we're all in.

That's a very remarkable statement.

There's only one Creator and He's responsible for everything that happens and what's spoken in this world and the next worlds we'll be experiencing for eternity.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/7/2013 12:38:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 12:21:38 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
I think atheism is an affirmative position where it shouldn't rightly be. As I said to mattrodstrom, if you didn't know if it was going to rain tomorrow, would you identify yourself as someone who didn't think it was going to rain tomorrow? The title of agnosticism seems very much adequate as regards sense, not to confuse nor offer any firm suggestion that 'nothing matters.'

lol,
Religion is relevant in our world.

Just last week some guy from work asked me what religion I was...
I first responded: "Well, my parents are catholic... But I'm not really"

He asked "What god do You believe in"
I said "I've never met any god, and don't really believe in any."

he says: "Oh, so what you just believe in Yourself" (in the same tune as other religious-folks who might condescendingly accuse atheists of being "self-righteous")

I say: "I believe in lots of things.. All this around me, You, me... lots of things."

when this guy asked me what religion I was, he wanted to know what god I believe in...
Religion and belief in god are still common factors in life.... and the word Atheist is relevant because of this.
I don't define myself by what I don't believe in... But when asked what my religion was instead of saying "I've never met any god, and don't really believe in any." I could've just as well said "I'm an atheist" and don't understand why there's a problem with that..

When everyone's convinced it's gonna rain tomorrow, and asks you about How hard you think it's gonna rain.. It's on point to respond "I don't think it's gonna rain tomorrow".
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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8/7/2013 12:39:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 12:33:10 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/7/2013 12:29:21 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
We know no such thing as God? Are you sure bro? We've not been crying out to him in huge numbers for the entirety of our existence?

Well, 1, that does literally nothing to establish actual existence or plausibility. 2, no, people have been crying out for various gods "for the entirety of our existence".

I may as well say that because there's the song "It's Raining Men" (by the Weather Girls), therefore my "raining naked women" prediction is perfectly plausible.

If God exists, then He is able to manifest into many forms and also can have many names. So simply because people identify with a being who has unlimited potency by a singular name, means nothing.
mattrodstrom
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8/7/2013 12:39:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 12:38:03 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Just last week some guy from work

happens to be a muslim (which I inquired about after this little convo), just to give better context.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/7/2013 12:40:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 12:34:11 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/7/2013 12:32:01 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
As I said in my atheism thread, everyone is born into God; it's just that it then comes down to how you view that God.

You were soundly defeated in your attempts to justify that claim. Repeating it doesn't make it more true.

We are all born into God as wavebits of energy that will go on forever. My friend has the correct information to know that we're created and not some kind of random accident.
AnDoctuir
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8/7/2013 12:40:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 12:38:03 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/7/2013 12:21:38 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
I think atheism is an affirmative position where it shouldn't rightly be. As I said to mattrodstrom, if you didn't know if it was going to rain tomorrow, would you identify yourself as someone who didn't think it was going to rain tomorrow? The title of agnosticism seems very much adequate as regards sense, not to confuse nor offer any firm suggestion that 'nothing matters.'

lol,
Religion is relevant in our world.

Just last week some guy from work asked me what religion I was...
I first responded: "Well, my parents are catholic... But I'm not really"

He asked "What god do You believe in"
I said "I've never met any god, and don't really believe in any."

he says: "Oh, so what you just believe in Yourself" (in the same tune as other religious-folks who might condescendingly accuse atheists of being "self-righteous")

I say: "I believe in lots of things.. All this around me, You, me... lots of things."


when this guy asked me what religion I was, he wanted to know what god I believe in...
Religion and belief in god are still common factors in life.... and the word Atheist is relevant because of this.
I don't define myself by what I don't believe in... But when asked what my religion was instead of saying "I've never met any god, and don't really believe in any." I could've just as well said "I'm an atheist" and don't understand why there's a problem with that..

When everyone's convinced it's gonna rain tomorrow, and asks you about How hard you think it's gonna rain.. It's on point to respond "I don't think it's gonna rain tomorrow".

matt there is the obvious implication of 'nothing matters' to go along with atheism as opposed to agnosticism and then agnosticism firmly deals with lack of belief. I mean, have you ever debated with someone religious on evolution bro? Their main objection is what evolution is to make of humanity.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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8/7/2013 12:41:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 12:36:44 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 8/7/2013 12:34:11 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/7/2013 12:32:01 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
As I said in my atheism thread, everyone is born into God; it's just that it then comes down to how you view that God.

You were soundly defeated in your attempts to justify that claim. Repeating it doesn't make it more true.

No I wasn't. Do you believe there will ever be complete sense made of the universe or that it will always remain a miracle? The concept of God is a much more reasonably conceived concept than that of naked ladies raining from the sky bro.

No, it really isn't. Both violate pretty much everything we actually do know about the universe. Arguing that because we don't know certain things therefore there's a god and he's sentient and he makes choices is an absurdity. Arguing that people are born with a god concept, when they very clearly aren't (a "wow" feeling is not a god concept, btw) is absurd. Pretending that everyone has been claiming the same god figure throughout history, though? That's just dishonest.
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bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/7/2013 12:41:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 12:36:44 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 8/7/2013 12:34:11 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/7/2013 12:32:01 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
As I said in my atheism thread, everyone is born into God; it's just that it then comes down to how you view that God.

You were soundly defeated in your attempts to justify that claim. Repeating it doesn't make it more true.

No I wasn't. Do you believe there will ever be complete sense made of the universe or that it will always remain a miracle? The concept of God is a much more reasonably conceived concept than that of naked ladies raining from the sky bro.

I like this comment of yours Sean. Naked ladies raining from the sky. LoL Just like Christians waiting for their naked Jesus flying in on the clouds with holes in his hands and side.