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Question about Free will

Disquisition
Posts: 391
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8/13/2013 12:56:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
God created us with the propensity to sin only because he gave us free-will. So Let's think for a moment, if God didn't give us free-will then we would essentially be robots that couldn't make our own decisions. So the question isn't why God made us with the propensity to sin, in actuality it's why did we purposely manipulate his God-given free-will to sin against him. And the answer to that is human curiosity and temptation, with the tempter being satan.

Common refute 1: Why did God create satan if he would tempt mankind, well satan had the same free-will we had and he choose to rebel

Common refute 2: That's Adam's fault not mine (our) so why is God punishing me (us) ? Well God just choose Adam to represent mankind, much like we choose leaders to represent a body of people. Does everyone agree with the election of a certain political leader, no, but does that matter when they are in office.

From a biblical standpoint, do you think this is logical?

Thoughts/Comments?
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/13/2013 8:39:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/13/2013 12:56:12 AM, Disquisition wrote:
God created us with the propensity to sin only because he gave us free-will. So Let's think for a moment, if God didn't give us free-will then we would essentially be robots that couldn't make our own decisions. So the question isn't why God made us with the propensity to sin, in actuality it's why did we purposely manipulate his God-given free-will to sin against him. And the answer to that is human curiosity and temptation, with the tempter being satan.

Common refute 1: Why did God create satan if he would tempt mankind, well satan had the same free-will we had and he choose to rebel

Common refute 2: That's Adam's fault not mine (our) so why is God punishing me (us) ? Well God just choose Adam to represent mankind, much like we choose leaders to represent a body of people. Does everyone agree with the election of a certain political leader, no, but does that matter when they are in office.

From a biblical standpoint, do you think this is logical?

Thoughts/Comments?

You're just a blind as Christians are to believe your own interpretations of the scriptures.

If you listen to God speak through His last saint, then you will learn all about the delusion He planned and made His people believe in it.
bulproof
Posts: 25,308
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8/13/2013 8:46:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/13/2013 8:39:10 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/13/2013 12:56:12 AM, Disquisition wrote:
God created us with the propensity to sin only because he gave us free-will. So Let's think for a moment, if God didn't give us free-will then we would essentially be robots that couldn't make our own decisions. So the question isn't why God made us with the propensity to sin, in actuality it's why did we purposely manipulate his God-given free-will to sin against him. And the answer to that is human curiosity and temptation, with the tempter being satan.

Common refute 1: Why did God create satan if he would tempt mankind, well satan had the same free-will we had and he choose to rebel

Common refute 2: That's Adam's fault not mine (our) so why is God punishing me (us) ? Well God just choose Adam to represent mankind, much like we choose leaders to represent a body of people. Does everyone agree with the election of a certain political leader, no, but does that matter when they are in office.

From a biblical standpoint, do you think this is logical?

Thoughts/Comments?

You're just a blind as Christians are to believe your own interpretations of the scriptures.

If you listen to God speak through His last saint, then you will learn all about the delusion He planned and made His people believe in it.
borno I can't find why you are gonna be shot in Feb 2015. Can you tell us again? There's new people on here who need to know if you are going to reach them
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/13/2013 9:38:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/13/2013 8:46:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/13/2013 8:39:10 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/13/2013 12:56:12 AM, Disquisition wrote:
God created us with the propensity to sin only because he gave us free-will. So Let's think for a moment, if God didn't give us free-will then we would essentially be robots that couldn't make our own decisions. So the question isn't why God made us with the propensity to sin, in actuality it's why did we purposely manipulate his God-given free-will to sin against him. And the answer to that is human curiosity and temptation, with the tempter being satan.

Common refute 1: Why did God create satan if he would tempt mankind, well satan had the same free-will we had and he choose to rebel

Common refute 2: That's Adam's fault not mine (our) so why is God punishing me (us) ? Well God just choose Adam to represent mankind, much like we choose leaders to represent a body of people. Does everyone agree with the election of a certain political leader, no, but does that matter when they are in office.

From a biblical standpoint, do you think this is logical?

Thoughts/Comments?

You're just a blind as Christians are to believe your own interpretations of the scriptures.

If you listen to God speak through His last saint, then you will learn all about the delusion He planned and made His people believe in it.
borno I can't find why you are gonna be shot in Feb 2015. Can you tell us again? There's new people on here who need to know if you are going to reach them

The body that God has me using to preach the gospel with will be killed because of the Truth that I speak. Here's some prophecies to show you that God's servants are killed for their testimonies of the Word, which is our created existence.

Revelation 6
9: When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne;
10: they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"
11: Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Revelation 12
1: Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told: "Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there,
2: but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months.
3: And I will grant my two witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
4: These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands which stand before the Lord of the earth.
5: And if any one would harm them, fire pours out from their mouth and consumes their foes; if any one would harm them, thus he is doomed to be killed.
6: They have power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.
7: And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit will make war upon them and conquer them and kill them,

Revelation 18
19: And they threw dust on their heads, as they wept and mourned, crying out, "Alas, alas, for the great city where all who had ships at sea grew rich by her wealth! In one hour she has been laid waste.
20: Rejoice over her, O heaven, O saints and apostles and prophets, for God has given judgment for you against her!"

Revelation 20
4: Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Ephesians 1
1: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are also faithful in Christ Jesus:
2: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
4: even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
5: He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
9: For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ

We saints have all the knowledge of God to understand things that happen in the past, present and future.
ChrisL
Posts: 136
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8/13/2013 8:55:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/13/2013 12:56:12 AM, Disquisition wrote:
God created us with the propensity to sin only because he gave us free-will. So Let's think for a moment, if God didn't give us free-will then we would essentially be robots that couldn't make our own decisions. So the question isn't why God made us with the propensity to sin, in actuality it's why did we purposely manipulate his God-given free-will to sin against him. And the answer to that is human curiosity and temptation, with the tempter being satan.

Common refute 1: Why did God create satan if he would tempt mankind, well satan had the same free-will we had and he choose to rebel

Common refute 2: That's Adam's fault not mine (our) so why is God punishing me (us) ? Well God just choose Adam to represent mankind, much like we choose leaders to represent a body of people. Does everyone agree with the election of a certain political leader, no, but does that matter when they are in office.

From a biblical standpoint, do you think this is logical?

Thoughts/Comments?

The concept of free will your refurring to is not found anywhere in all of scripture. I understand it's a common misconception in evangelicalism today, but it does not derive from sound exegisis of the text, but rather from human tradition.

You said, " So Let's think for a moment, if God didn't give us free-will then we would essentially be robots that couldn't make our own decisions". That simply isn't the case. The biblical teaching is that God sovereignly decrees the free choices of men. Man is still able to make decisions so long as they are decision not contrary to his/her nature. For instance, Man cannot choose to submit to God because He is a God hater(Rom 1:29), does not seek God(Rom 3:11), and is incapeable of doing so(Rom 8:7). All throughout scripute we see events where even the sinful acts of men were decreed by God to accomplish his purpose. Events like Joseph being sold into slavery which the bible says in Gen 50 was meant by God. Not that God simply allowed it by that God meant it.

Disscussing the nature of Adam is a tough task because there just isn't anything said about it in scripture. Neverthe less you can read all you want, but you won't see anything there about Adam having a free will. Sure Adam did choose to eat the fruit, but choosing to do somingthing does not imply an autonomous free will.

I believe that essentially God decreed that Adam would eat the fruit. Considering the bible's teaching on the fact that noone can frustrate the will of God, there simply isn't any other way to understant the Genesis 3 account. Unless you wanna say that adam frustrated the will of God.

Ultimately, what needs to be understood is the difference between free will and autonomous free will. The only one with an autonomouse free will is God.

If God is sovereign than he has the ability to decree the free choices of men.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/15/2013 11:03:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/13/2013 8:55:40 PM, ChrisL wrote:
At 8/13/2013 12:56:12 AM, Disquisition wrote:
God created us with the propensity to sin only because he gave us free-will. So Let's think for a moment, if God didn't give us free-will then we would essentially be robots that couldn't make our own decisions. So the question isn't why God made us with the propensity to sin, in actuality it's why did we purposely manipulate his God-given free-will to sin against him. And the answer to that is human curiosity and temptation, with the tempter being satan.

Common refute 1: Why did God create satan if he would tempt mankind, well satan had the same free-will we had and he choose to rebel

Common refute 2: That's Adam's fault not mine (our) so why is God punishing me (us) ? Well God just choose Adam to represent mankind, much like we choose leaders to represent a body of people. Does everyone agree with the election of a certain political leader, no, but does that matter when they are in office.

From a biblical standpoint, do you think this is logical?

Thoughts/Comments?

The concept of free will your refurring to is not found anywhere in all of scripture. I understand it's a common misconception in evangelicalism today, but it does not derive from sound exegisis of the text, but rather from human tradition.

You said, " So Let's think for a moment, if God didn't give us free-will then we would essentially be robots that couldn't make our own decisions". That simply isn't the case. The biblical teaching is that God sovereignly decrees the free choices of men. Man is still able to make decisions so long as they are decision not contrary to his/her nature. For instance, Man cannot choose to submit to God because He is a God hater(Rom 1:29), does not seek God(Rom 3:11), and is incapeable of doing so(Rom 8:7). All throughout scripute we see events where even the sinful acts of men were decreed by God to accomplish his purpose. Events like Joseph being sold into slavery which the bible says in Gen 50 was meant by God. Not that God simply allowed it by that God meant it.

Disscussing the nature of Adam is a tough task because there just isn't anything said about it in scripture. Neverthe less you can read all you want, but you won't see anything there about Adam having a free will. Sure Adam did choose to eat the fruit, but choosing to do somingthing does not imply an autonomous free will.

I believe that essentially God decreed that Adam would eat the fruit. Considering the bible's teaching on the fact that noone can frustrate the will of God, there simply isn't any other way to understant the Genesis 3 account. Unless you wanna say that adam frustrated the will of God.

Ultimately, what needs to be understood is the difference between free will and autonomous free will. The only one with an autonomouse free will is God.

If God is sovereign than he has the ability to decree the free choices of men.

God created everything, including the life of men and all their decisions.

How else could God's prophecies be fulfilled if man had choices?
Dogknox
Posts: 5,094
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8/15/2013 3:17:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/13/2013 12:56:12 AM, Disquisition wrote:
God created us with the propensity to sin only because he gave us free-will. So Let's think for a moment, if God didn't give us free-will then we would essentially be robots that couldn't make our own decisions. So the question isn't why God made us with the propensity to sin, in actuality it's why did we purposely manipulate his God-given free-will to sin against him. And the answer to that is human curiosity and temptation, with the tempter being satan.

Common refute 1: Why did God create satan if he would tempt mankind, well satan had the same free-will we had and he choose to rebel

Common refute 2: That's Adam's fault not mine (our) so why is God punishing me (us) ? Well God just choose Adam to represent mankind, much like we choose leaders to represent a body of people. Does everyone agree with the election of a certain political leader, no, but does that matter when they are in office.

From a biblical standpoint, do you think this is logical?

Thoughts/Comments?

You are mixed up!!!
God made man in his image>>> God is LOVE!!!

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Disquisition Only man can LOVE!!.. Pigs cows, chickens dogs snails etc... CAN'T LOVE!
LOVE IS: GIVING of self from the heart!
Love must be GIVEN you can't force anyone to love!!

If God made a love potion, thus making Adam to LOVE then Adams love would not be real love!! Because God is pure love he can't force anyone to do what they do not want to do.. He can't force Adam to love him! Thus free will.. You MUST HAVE free will to love!
Disquisition You MUST HAVE free will to love!

1 John 5:3
In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

Disquisition God wants all men to love him!! God gave us free will so we could love him!!

DO YOU SEE IT??? this is love for God: to keep his commands.

Genesis 2:16
And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden
17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/15/2013 3:23:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 3:17:10 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 8/13/2013 12:56:12 AM, Disquisition wrote:
God created us with the propensity to sin only because he gave us free-will. So Let's think for a moment, if God didn't give us free-will then we would essentially be robots that couldn't make our own decisions. So the question isn't why God made us with the propensity to sin, in actuality it's why did we purposely manipulate his God-given free-will to sin against him. And the answer to that is human curiosity and temptation, with the tempter being satan.

Common refute 1: Why did God create satan if he would tempt mankind, well satan had the same free-will we had and he choose to rebel

Common refute 2: That's Adam's fault not mine (our) so why is God punishing me (us) ? Well God just choose Adam to represent mankind, much like we choose leaders to represent a body of people. Does everyone agree with the election of a certain political leader, no, but does that matter when they are in office.

From a biblical standpoint, do you think this is logical?

Thoughts/Comments?

You are mixed up!!!
God made man in his image>>> God is LOVE!!!

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.


Disquisition Only man can LOVE!!.. Pigs cows, chickens dogs snails etc... CAN'T LOVE!
LOVE IS: GIVING of self from the heart!
Love must be GIVEN you can't force anyone to love!!

If God made a love potion, thus making Adam to LOVE then Adams love would not be real love!! Because God is pure love he can't force anyone to do what they do not want to do.. He can't force Adam to love him! Thus free will.. You MUST HAVE free will to love!
Disquisition You MUST HAVE free will to love!

1 John 5:3
In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

Disquisition God wants all men to love him!! God gave us free will so we could love him!!

DO YOU SEE IT??? this is love for God: to keep his commands.

Genesis 2:16
And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden
17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."


The love of your flesh has blinded you from the love of God, which is information without deception.

No Christian or any other sinner has obeyed the commandments of God.

1 John 1:
6: If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth;

1 John 2:
4: He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

1 John 3:
4: Every one who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

6: No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him.

8: He who commits sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 4:
6: We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us( the gospel that is preached by us saints). By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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8/16/2013 7:36:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/13/2013 12:56:12 AM, Disquisition wrote:
God created us with the propensity to sin only because he gave us free-will. So Let's think for a moment, if God didn't give us free-will then we would essentially be robots that couldn't make our own decisions. So the question isn't why God made us with the propensity to sin, in actuality it's why did we purposely manipulate his God-given free-will to sin against him. And the answer to that is human curiosity and temptation, with the tempter being satan.

Common refute 1: Why did God create satan if he would tempt mankind, well satan had the same free-will we had and he choose to rebel

Common refute 2: That's Adam's fault not mine (our) so why is God punishing me (us) ? Well God just choose Adam to represent mankind, much like we choose leaders to represent a body of people. Does everyone agree with the election of a certain political leader, no, but does that matter when they are in office.

From a biblical standpoint, do you think this is logical?

Thoughts/Comments?

You do make a sense, then all this really depend on the purpose behind our creation. some people start from the false assumption that compares God to a man, and they think what is evil for a man is evil for God, and this is just false, God is the creator, if he created both good and evil, this doesn't make Him any evil! He is in His right, but when a man does evil he isn't in his right , for he is disobeying his creator.
Suqua
Posts: 433
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8/16/2013 11:02:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/13/2013 8:39:10 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/13/2013 12:56:12 AM, Disquisition wrote:
God created us with the propensity to sin only because he gave us free-will. So Let's think for a moment, if God didn't give us free-will then we would essentially be robots that couldn't make our own decisions. So the question isn't why God made us with the propensity to sin, in actuality it's why did we purposely manipulate his God-given free-will to sin against him. And the answer to that is human curiosity and temptation, with the tempter being satan.

Common refute 1: Why did God create satan if he would tempt mankind, well satan had the same free-will we had and he choose to rebel

Common refute 2: That's Adam's fault not mine (our) so why is God punishing me (us) ? Well God just choose Adam to represent mankind, much like we choose leaders to represent a body of people. Does everyone agree with the election of a certain political leader, no, but does that matter when they are in office.

From a biblical standpoint, do you think this is logical?

Thoughts/Comments?

You're just a blind as Christians are to believe your own interpretations of the scriptures.

If you listen to God speak through His last saint, then you will learn all about the delusion He planned and made His people believe in it.

Explain the delusion He planned. Start from the begining, Genesis, and we'll see how it comes together. Stop at Genesis so I can grasp your understanding, then we can move on, Ok!
bulproof
Posts: 25,308
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8/16/2013 11:21:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/13/2013 12:56:12 AM, Disquisition wrote:
God created us with the propensity to sin only because he gave us free-will. So Let's think for a moment, if God didn't give us free-will then we would essentially be robots that couldn't make our own decisions. So the question isn't why God made us with the propensity to sin, in actuality it's why did we purposely manipulate his God-given free-will to sin against him. And the answer to that is human curiosity and temptation, with the tempter being satan.

Common refute 1: Why did God create satan if he would tempt mankind, well satan had the same free-will we had and he choose to rebel

Common refute 2: That's Adam's fault not mine (our) so why is God punishing me (us) ? Well God just choose Adam to represent mankind, much like we choose leaders to represent a body of people. Does everyone agree with the election of a certain political leader, no, but does that matter when they are in office.

From a biblical standpoint, do you think this is logical?

Thoughts/Comments?

Allegedly you will possess free will in heaven and yet will not sin. What miracle is used to achieve this impossibility?