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Why doesn't God care about human consensus?

Orangatang
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8/14/2013 7:46:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
There are roughly 4,200 different religions in the world, around 21 of them are major religions, and let's not forget all the various denominations of each. If there was a God, why would he allow us to become divided on the issue? Why doesn't any religious group receive any statistically measurable benefits that other people do not? Wouldn't you expect God to treat his "actual" followers with objectively observable benefits? It is rational that God should provide a consensus of religion to all people for this would progress the human condition and end religious wars and conflicts. It is an easy question to answer when you assume there is no God, or that God is indifferent to human affairs.
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the_croftmeister
Posts: 678
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8/14/2013 8:36:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/14/2013 7:46:04 PM, Orangatang wrote:
There are roughly 4,200 different religions in the world, around 21 of them are major religions, and let's not forget all the various denominations of each. If there was a God, why would he allow us to become divided on the issue? Why doesn't any religious group receive any statistically measurable benefits that other people do not? Wouldn't you expect God to treat his "actual" followers with objectively observable benefits? It is rational that God should provide a consensus of religion to all people for this would progress the human condition and end religious wars and conflicts. It is an easy question to answer when you assume there is no God, or that God is indifferent to human affairs.

What evidence do you have that there isn't a 'statistically measurable benefit' for one religion? More to the point, what if God favours multiple religions on the grounds that the religion he wants us to follow is close, but not precisely equal to, any of them?
Orangatang
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8/14/2013 8:48:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
What evidence do you have that there isn't a 'statistically measurable benefit' for one religion? More to the point, what if God favours multiple religions on the grounds that the religion he wants us to follow is close, but not precisely equal to, any of them?

I'm sure one can find statistically measurable benefits for one religion over another, my point is that they are not significant enough for other people to convert. As for your second contention, it is definitely possible that we are all not following the correct religion, however how can one even determine if our religions are close to the "true" religion if we are not even certain that there is a "true" religion. Either way, it seems like a pretty irrational and ineffective plan for an all-perfect God.
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the_croftmeister
Posts: 678
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8/14/2013 9:51:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/14/2013 8:48:52 PM, Orangatang wrote:
What evidence do you have that there isn't a 'statistically measurable benefit' for one religion? More to the point, what if God favours multiple religions on the grounds that the religion he wants us to follow is close, but not precisely equal to, any of them?

I'm sure one can find statistically measurable benefits for one religion over another, my point is that they are not significant enough for other people to convert. As for your second contention, it is definitely possible that we are all not following the correct religion, however how can one even determine if our religions are close to the "true" religion if we are not even certain that there is a "true" religion. Either way, it seems like a pretty irrational and ineffective plan for an all-perfect God.
Clearly they are significant enough for some people to convert. Otherwise the religions would only be passed down by family line. I don't think individuals choosing to ignore benefits and pursue another life-style anyway would be enough to justify the statement that God doesn't care. In fact, if (as you seem to require) proof that God is not uncaring would be evident only if everyone converted to one religion, then this would be strong evidence that free will is not important to God, he controls us by providing the benefits we want (which ironically is exactly the issue that many people have with business leaders).
the_croftmeister
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8/14/2013 9:58:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/14/2013 8:48:52 PM, Orangatang wrote:
What evidence do you have that there isn't a 'statistically measurable benefit' for one religion? More to the point, what if God favours multiple religions on the grounds that the religion he wants us to follow is close, but not precisely equal to, any of them?

I'm sure one can find statistically measurable benefits for one religion over another, my point is that they are not significant enough for other people to convert. As for your second contention, it is definitely possible that we are all not following the correct religion, however how can one even determine if our religions are close to the "true" religion if we are not even certain that there is a "true" religion. Either way, it seems like a pretty irrational and ineffective plan for an all-perfect God.
Sorry I forgot to respond to your second point.

How would you have him do it then? Religion is so flexible, there are new interpretations of it coming out all the time. God (if he exists) has to rely on the human mind to understand the religion he wants us to follow. Maybe there isn't a single true religion, just things he likes about certain religions and things he does not? It's not like the boundaries between religions are even particularly obvious. The broad distinctions are obvious (Christian/Muslim/Jewish), but only because we made them so. It is important to remember that religious teachings are human teachings, distorted by the human views of both the teacher and student. Perhaps the plan is ineffective, though I would ask compared to what. And if there was no better alternative, you can hardly call Him irrational for choosing the best option.
Orangatang
Posts: 442
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8/15/2013 12:28:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Clearly they are significant enough for some people to convert. Otherwise the religions would only be passed down by family line. I don't think individuals choosing to ignore benefits and pursue another life-style anyway would be enough to justify the statement that God doesn't care. In fact, if (as you seem to require) proof that God is not uncaring would be evident only if everyone converted to one religion, then this would be strong evidence that free will is not important to God, he controls us by providing the benefits we want (which ironically is exactly the issue that many people have with business leaders).

I understand that some people convert, but it doesn't seem they convert because of benefits necessarily, they may convert because of persuasive evidence, or just because it is a comforting idea.

How would you have him do it then? Religion is so flexible, there are new interpretations of it coming out all the time. God (if he exists) has to rely on the human mind to understand the religion he wants us to follow. Maybe there isn't a single true religion, just things he likes about certain religions and things he does not? It's not like the boundaries between religions are even particularly obvious. The broad distinctions are obvious (Christian/Muslim/Jewish), but only because we made them so. It is important to remember that religious teachings are human teachings, distorted by the human views of both the teacher and student. Perhaps the plan is ineffective, though I would ask compared to what. And if there was no better alternative, you can hardly call Him irrational for choosing the best option.

It seems much more rational to unite people, so that they are not confused as to which religion is correct. Why wouldn't God want to comfort his "true" followers with a relatively high amount of certainty? If I was God I would make some sort of non-contradictory religious system that is not dependent on only anecdotal evidence. There would be indisputable evidence of my existence and my miracles. My true followers would have their "rational and just" prayers answered. They would receive benefits that are readily apparent to others, and proven many times to be from a supernatural source. If this was done, anyone who is not an idiot would convert to this religion, less religious wars would occur, certainty of this truth would be comforting, and my true teachings would be implemented to progress the human condition.
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bornofgod
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8/15/2013 8:03:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/14/2013 7:46:04 PM, Orangatang wrote:
There are roughly 4,200 different religions in the world, around 21 of them are major religions, and let's not forget all the various denominations of each. If there was a God, why would he allow us to become divided on the issue? Why doesn't any religious group receive any statistically measurable benefits that other people do not? Wouldn't you expect God to treat his "actual" followers with objectively observable benefits? It is rational that God should provide a consensus of religion to all people for this would progress the human condition and end religious wars and conflicts. It is an easy question to answer when you assume there is no God, or that God is indifferent to human affairs.

God created this world as a delusion to confuse His people and hide from them.

Ezekiel 39
25: "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for my holy name.
26: They shall forget their shame, and all the treachery they have practiced against me, when they dwell securely in their land with none to make them afraid,
27: when I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them from their enemies' lands, and through them have vindicated my holiness in the sight of many nations.
28: Then they shall know that I am the LORD their God because I sent them into exile among the nations, and then gathered them into their own land. I will leave none of them remaining among the nations any more;
29: and I will not hide my face any more from them, when I pour out my Spirit upon the house of Israel, says the Lord GOD."

God doesn't have a face so the word "face" is symbolic. God hid from His people because He is invisible and His creation is also invisible energy, which is actually information.
Orangatang
Posts: 442
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8/15/2013 4:45:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
God created this world as a delusion to confuse His people and hide from them.

Ezekiel 39
25: "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for my holy name.
26: They shall forget their shame, and all the treachery they have practiced against me, when they dwell securely in their land with none to make them afraid,
27: when I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them from their enemies' lands, and through them have vindicated my holiness in the sight of many nations.
28: Then they shall know that I am the LORD their God because I sent them into exile among the nations, and then gathered them into their own land. I will leave none of them remaining among the nations any more;
29: and I will not hide my face any more from them, when I pour out my Spirit upon the house of Israel, says the Lord GOD."

God doesn't have a face so the word "face" is symbolic. God hid from His people because He is invisible and His creation is also invisible energy, which is actually information.

Why would God want to confuse his people and hide from them? Again, if God cared about human certainty and consensus he would be decent enough to prove himself. Why is God a trickster trying to confuse us all? These questions still can be easily answered and justified by assuming religion is man-made. The vast diversity and conflicting doctrines of religions is exactly what one would expect if you assumed religions, and the idea of God is man-made.
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Bullish
Posts: 3,527
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8/15/2013 4:47:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The common argument is "free will". These people believe that free will = good, no matter where it leads.
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bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/15/2013 5:08:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 4:45:51 PM, Orangatang wrote:
God created this world as a delusion to confuse His people and hide from them.

Ezekiel 39
25: "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for my holy name.
26: They shall forget their shame, and all the treachery they have practiced against me, when they dwell securely in their land with none to make them afraid,
27: when I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them from their enemies' lands, and through them have vindicated my holiness in the sight of many nations.
28: Then they shall know that I am the LORD their God because I sent them into exile among the nations, and then gathered them into their own land. I will leave none of them remaining among the nations any more;
29: and I will not hide my face any more from them, when I pour out my Spirit upon the house of Israel, says the Lord GOD."

God doesn't have a face so the word "face" is symbolic. God hid from His people because He is invisible and His creation is also invisible energy, which is actually information.

Why would God want to confuse his people and hide from them? Again, if God cared about human certainty and consensus he would be decent enough to prove himself. Why is God a trickster trying to confuse us all? These questions still can be easily answered and justified by assuming religion is man-made. The vast diversity and conflicting doctrines of religions is exactly what one would expect if you assumed religions, and the idea of God is man-made.

Nothing in this world is man-made. God is the creator of all the illusions we believe is real. We're actually invisible energy that has to be processed to give us a defined world to experience life in. God is the invisible creator of energy so it was impossible for man to see God. This is how God is hidden, not that He run into the woods to hide from us.

God used this first age and all the worldly things that He had His people build to help us understand who we are and how He created us. How else would you explain to us that w'ere invisible bits of energy?
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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8/15/2013 6:40:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/14/2013 7:46:04 PM, Orangatang wrote:
There are roughly 4,200 different religions in the world, around 21 of them are major religions, and let's not forget all the various denominations of each. If there was a God, why would he allow us to become divided on the issue? Why doesn't any religious group receive any statistically measurable benefits that other people do not? Wouldn't you expect God to treat his "actual" followers with objectively observable benefits? It is rational that God should provide a consensus of religion to all people for this would progress the human condition and end religious wars and conflicts. It is an easy question to answer when you assume there is no God, or that God is indifferent to human affairs.

You mean earthly benefit ?! this world is meant to be a turmoil, and man is expected to use his reasoning, and he shall be tried with good and evil, if it doesn't happen the way you think is best it's just that it's not the way God wants things to be. but the truth is there, and your given brain should be enough for you to find which religion is the most relevant, and even if you never come to find the right one, and still know your creator and are sincere, you shall be safe.

Well about differing , this is what God says in the Quran, which could answer your questions:

Mankind was one community; thereafter Allah raised prophets as bearers of glad tidings and warners, as He sent down the Book With truth that He may judge between mankind in that wherein they disputed. And none differed therein save those unto whom it was vouchsafed after the evidences had come to them, out of spite among themselves; then Allah guided those who believed unto the truth of that regarding which they differed, by His leave. Allah guideth whomsoever He listeth unto a path straight. (213) Deem ye that ye will enter the Garden while ye hath not come upon you the like of that which came upon those who have passed away before you There touched them adversity and distress, and shaken were they, until the apostle and those who believed with him said; when cometh the succour of Allah! Lo! verily Allahs succour is nigh. (214) Quran/2
Orangatang
Posts: 442
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8/15/2013 6:52:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 4:47:52 PM, Bullish wrote:
The common argument is "free will". These people believe that free will = good, no matter where it leads.

I understand the free will argument, but this still doesn't negate the fact that God is acting as a trickster.

bornofgod wrote:
Nothing in this world is man-made. God is the creator of all the illusions we believe is real. We're actually invisible energy that has to be processed to give us a defined world to experience life in. God is the invisible creator of energy so it was impossible for man to see God. This is how God is hidden, not that He run into the woods to hide from us.

So chairs aren't man-made? How do you know the world we perceive is an illusion (Please answer without citing the Bible as proof)? It totally could be an illusion but the whole concept of a fake reality is unfalsifiable by principle. So basically I am saying you could never prove it is an illusion. How do you know the universe was created, and was created by an invisible God?

God used this first age and all the worldly things that He had His people build to help us understand who we are and how He created us. How else would you explain to us that w'ere invisible bits of energy?

God is not helping us understand, as you said earlier he is confusing us by leaving us with conflicting religious claims. I have no idea what you mean by invisible bits of energy nor do I see why it is relevant, please elaborate. Hopefully you mean that we are made of a collection of atoms that are not visible by the human eye, however this still does not bear any obvious relevance to the issue.
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Orangatang
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8/15/2013 7:19:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 6:40:02 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
You mean earthly benefit ?! this world is meant to be a turmoil, and man is expected to use his reasoning, and he shall be tried with good and evil, if it doesn't happen the way you think is best it's just that it's not the way God wants things to be. but the truth is there, and your given brain should be enough for you to find which religion is the most relevant, and even if you never come to find the right one, and still know your creator and are sincere, you shall be safe.

Why would I ever waste my earthly time, the only time I can be certain of? Why waste this time believing hearsay and praying to a God that is not certain to even exist? When it comes to one of the most important questions, why doesn't God give any indisputable evidence? My rationality has lead me to conclude with a very high degree of certainty that agnosticism towards the issue is the most honest way to live, and a secular sense of morality and values will bring a healthy and happy lifestyle for anyone who adopts them.

Well about differing , this is what God says in the Quran, which could answer your questions:

Mankind was one community; thereafter Allah raised prophets as bearers of glad tidings and warners, as He sent down the Book With truth that He may judge between mankind in that wherein they disputed. And none differed therein save those unto whom it was vouchsafed after the evidences had come to them, out of spite among themselves; then Allah guided those who believed unto the truth of that regarding which they differed, by His leave. Allah guideth whomsoever He listeth unto a path straight. (213) Deem ye that ye will enter the Garden while ye hath not come upon you the like of that which came upon those who have passed away before you There touched them adversity and distress, and shaken were they, until the apostle and those who believed with him said; when cometh the succour of Allah! Lo! verily Allahs succour is nigh. (214) Quran/2

Can you please summarize the main point(s) of this scripture?
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stubs
Posts: 1,887
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8/15/2013 7:38:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/14/2013 7:46:04 PM, Orangatang wrote:
There are roughly 4,200 different religions in the world, around 21 of them are major religions, and let's not forget all the various denominations of each. If there was a God, why would he allow us to become divided on the issue?

Maybe he gave us free will to decide what we believe?

Why doesn't any religious group receive any statistically measurable benefits that other people do not?

Should we expect to see this?

Wouldn't you expect God to treat his "actual" followers with objectively observable benefits?

I wouldn't

It is rational that God should provide a consensus of religion to all people for this would progress the human condition and end religious wars and conflicts.

I certainly wish it was such, but I do not think we should expect God to do this.

It is an easy question to answer when you assume there is no God, or that God is indifferent to human affairs.
Bullish
Posts: 3,527
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8/15/2013 7:42:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
@Orangatang:

There is no need to bother responding to "borofgod". He is a delusional person suffering from a serious case of Jerusalem Syndrome. As can be seen in his threads: http://www.debate.org...
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the_croftmeister
Posts: 678
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8/15/2013 9:31:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 12:28:41 AM, Orangatang wrote:
Clearly they are significant enough for some people to convert. Otherwise the religions would only be passed down by family line. I don't think individuals choosing to ignore benefits and pursue another life-style anyway would be enough to justify the statement that God doesn't care. In fact, if (as you seem to require) proof that God is not uncaring would be evident only if everyone converted to one religion, then this would be strong evidence that free will is not important to God, he controls us by providing the benefits we want (which ironically is exactly the issue that many people have with business leaders).

I understand that some people convert, but it doesn't seem they convert because of benefits necessarily, they may convert because of persuasive evidence, or just because it is a comforting idea.
That's a bold, unsupported claim. As such I will dismiss it.

How would you have him do it then? Religion is so flexible, there are new interpretations of it coming out all the time. God (if he exists) has to rely on the human mind to understand the religion he wants us to follow. Maybe there isn't a single true religion, just things he likes about certain religions and things he does not? It's not like the boundaries between religions are even particularly obvious. The broad distinctions are obvious (Christian/Muslim/Jewish), but only because we made them so. It is important to remember that religious teachings are human teachings, distorted by the human views of both the teacher and student. Perhaps the plan is ineffective, though I would ask compared to what. And if there was no better alternative, you can hardly call Him irrational for choosing the best option.

It seems much more rational to unite people, so that they are not confused as to which religion is correct. Why wouldn't God want to comfort his "true" followers with a relatively high amount of certainty?
Most religious followers do have a high amount of certainty. This certainty might not be limited to the one true religion, but you can hardly deny that religious people are certain God exists. What you appear to want is scientific certainty, and that is a different ball game all together. Perhaps the fact that He gave us the ability to be certain about His existence makes us able to be certain about 'false' gods as well.

If I was God I would make some sort of non-contradictory religious system that is not dependent on only anecdotal evidence. There would be indisputable evidence of my existence and my miracles.
What form would this evidence take? There is indisputable evidence that the Earth goes around the sun, but some people still believe otherwise. There is, I believe, indisputable evidence that humans evolved from ape like creatures, even more people still believe otherwise. The indisputability of evidence comes down to how convincing it is. Science is not the only source of knowledge, nor is it the most reliable one in all cases.

My true followers would have their "rational and just" prayers answered.
Most believers assert that this is the case. But that the answers don't appear in the form of words or miracles always. You just have to look for how God answered the prayer.

They would receive benefits that are readily apparent to others, and proven many times to be from a supernatural source.
How do you propose to prove something comes from a supernatural source? In order to demonstrate this one would have to show that not only is no currently understood 'natural' source an adequate explanation but that no natural explanation could possibly be given. But our understanding of the natural is constantly growing and changing. We never quite reach the end of what it can do. So you can always dismiss a 'miracle' as something that is natural but as yet unexplained. There are many unsolved metaphysical problems that appear to require supernatural explanations. Consciousness is one, Causality is another. Supernatural is basically a synonym for unexplained.

If this was done, anyone who is not an idiot would convert to this religion, less religious wars would occur, certainty of this truth would be comforting, and my true teachings would be implemented to progress the human condition.
Suppose I go along with the premise that you could prove God's existence. The debate would simply shift from 'does He exist?' to 'should we worship Him?'. I know I certainly wouldn't, not in the fashion that the Christian bible preaches. Would you then call me an idiot? For wanting to make my own moral decisions? I don't find certainty comforting, it takes all the fun out of it. And as for implementing his teachings, I doubt humans would get that right. You still haven't removed the interpretation issue. Unless God is actually going to sit in every classroom and correct the teacher on every point.
Orangatang
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8/16/2013 3:11:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 7:38:07 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/14/2013 7:46:04 PM, Orangatang wrote:
There are roughly 4,200 different religions in the world, around 21 of them are major religions, and let's not forget all the various denominations of each. If there was a God, why would he allow us to become divided on the issue?

Maybe he gave us free will to decide what we believe?

Although there is no scientific evidence or reason to believe God "gave" us free will, this still does not negate the fact that from an unbiased perspective, God gives no more obvious or compelling evidence in support of one religion over all others. This may lead a rational thinker to deduce that all religions are equivalent glimpses of the untrue.

Why doesn't any religious group receive any statistically measurable benefits that other people do not?

Should we expect to see this?

We should if God wants people to be convinced that one religion is true. This would also establish comfort in those that are unsure of his existence or his omnibenevolence.

Wouldn't you expect God to treat his "actual" followers with objectively observable benefits?

I wouldn't

Why not? If God only helps those in one religious group then it should be quite obvious.

It is rational that God should provide a consensus of religion to all people for this would progress the human condition and end religious wars and conflicts.

I certainly wish it was such, but I do not think we should expect God to do this.

I understand you do not expect this, now please tell me why not? I thought God was effective and rational in his plan for humans. If you can find one way in which God's plan is more rational in both the long and short term, then you have proved that God's plan is not maximally effective/rational.
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Orangatang
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8/16/2013 3:13:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 7:42:55 PM, Bullish wrote:
@Orangatang:

There is no need to bother responding to "borofgod". He is a delusional person suffering from a serious case of Jerusalem Syndrome. As can be seen in his threads: http://www.debate.org...

Alright, I certainly do not wish to offend bornofgod I just want to persuade him with rational inquiry assuming it is possible for him to be persuaded.
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Orangatang
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8/16/2013 4:16:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 9:31:45 PM, the_croftmeister wrote:
I understand that some people convert, but it doesn't seem they convert because of benefits necessarily, they may convert because of persuasive evidence, or just because it is a comforting idea.
That's a bold, unsupported claim. As such I will dismiss it.

It is not merely an assertion, it seems quite probable and logical. Quickly doing a Google search I have found many different articles that supports my claims. Here is one: http://hubpages.com.... According to the article and many like it, people are most likely to convert in times of negative emotional states and hardships, this supports my claim that people convert because religion is a comforting idea ergo it relieves negative emotional states.

Most religious followers do have a high amount of certainty. This certainty might not be limited to the one true religion, but you can hardly deny that religious people are certain God exists. What you appear to want is scientific certainty, and that is a different ball game all together. Perhaps the fact that He gave us the ability to be certain about His existence makes us able to be certain about 'false' gods as well.

Your first sentence is a bold, unsupported claim. As such I will dismiss it. Instead of writing that ^ cop-out why don't you respond to it rationally ==>. Skepticism of God's existence and the validity of religious doctrines are quite high in those that see there is a definite problem with religious evidence. Scientific evidence is the greatest path to truth and by extension certainty, don't you agree? If yes, then why does God resort to only religious evidence such as ancient texts and hearsay?

If I was God I would make some sort of non-contradictory religious system that is not dependent on only anecdotal evidence. There would be indisputable evidence of my existence and my miracles.
What form would this evidence take? There is indisputable evidence that the Earth goes around the sun, but some people still believe otherwise. There is, I believe, indisputable evidence that humans evolved from ape like creatures, even more people still believe otherwise. The indisputability of evidence comes down to how convincing it is. Science is not the only source of knowledge, nor is it the most reliable one in all cases.

This evidence would include all possible types of evidence necessary to establish certainty scientifically and otherwise. The types of evidence would include anecdotal, testimonial, analogical, and statistical (peer-reviewed scientific data). Let's say that the certainty that God exists is as certain that humans exists. If God is omnipotent then he can surely convince each and every person that he exists, I mean why not just pop up in front of everyone and let them know that he can control everything and anything in the universe. If this is done, it would be quite hard to deny with certainty his nonexistence. I would agree that science is not the only source of knowledge but I do believe it is the greatest path to establishing truth of physically measurable claims. If God were to exists, and would readily prove to us that there is no other natural explanation (quite easy to do), then we could scientifically measure his effect on physical objects and conclude that a supernatural power exists.

My true followers would have their "rational and just" prayers answered.
Most believers assert that this is the case. But that the answers don't appear in the form of words or miracles always. You just have to look for how God answered the prayer.

I agree, if you look hard enough I'm sure you would find the placebo effect kicking in.

They would receive benefits that are readily apparent to others, and proven many times to be from a supernatural source.
How do you propose to prove something comes from a supernatural source? In order to demonstrate this one would have to show that not only is no currently understood 'natural' source an adequate explanation but that no natural explanation could possibly be given. But our understanding of the natural is constantly growing and changing. We never quite reach the end of what it can do. So you can always dismiss a 'miracle' as something that is natural but as yet unexplained. There are many unsolved metaphysical problems that appear to require supernatural explanations. Consciousness is one, Causality is another. Supernatural is basically a synonym for unexplained.

As I outlined above, an omnipotent God could easily prove that his power is supernatural and show that the only possible explanation is supernatural. Let me give a specific example. God could "pop-up" in front of everyone and tell them he is all-powerful then show it in any way imaginable, let's say levitate each person for a minute. IDK mang I'm sure someone would object with that last hypothetical and say http://www.redgamingtech.com.... The point is an all-powerful God can do anything that is logically possible and prove to our most renown scientists with a very high degree of certainty that no other naturalistic explanation suffices. I do not agree with the last few remarks, consciousness and causality can be explained through completely naturalistic phenomenon. Although they may still not be fully understood, it is a non-sequitur to assume they are of a supernatural cause (God of the gaps bro).

If this was done, anyone who is not an idiot would convert to this religion, less religious wars would occur, certainty of this truth would be comforting, and my true teachings would be implemented to progress the human condition.
Suppose I go along with the premise that you could prove God's existence. The debate would simply shift from 'does He exist?' to 'should we worship Him?'. I know I certainly wouldn't, not in the fashion that the Christian bible preaches. Would you then call me an idiot? For wanting to make my own moral decisions? I don't find certainty comforting, it takes all the fun out of it. And as for implementing his teachings, I doubt humans would get that right. You still haven't removed the interpretation issue. Unless God is actually going to sit in every classroom and correct the teacher on every point.

Who said God would infringe upon your moral decisions? Best thing he could do is just point out the Golden rule and punish those who do not follow it, in a reasonable manner. No sending people to eternal torment for a finite crime. If there was uncertainty as to things such as abortion or any other moral dilemmas, God can be crystal clear by saying in his doctrines something like "God approves of abortion in all cases." None of that vague ridiculous moral story stuff we see common in many religious texts where anyone could pick up a different meaning depending on how they read it. Honestly I could write a religious doctrine 20 times better than all current ones and make it completely non-contradictory and completely narrow in interpretation and do it all in a comma. I know all these hypotheticals may seem silly, I am just imploring you to see that God seems quite incapable of helping humans in many ways.
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Fruitytree
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8/16/2013 7:09:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 7:19:01 PM, Orangatang wrote:
At 8/15/2013 6:40:02 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
You mean earthly benefit ?! this world is meant to be a turmoil, and man is expected to use his reasoning, and he shall be tried with good and evil, if it doesn't happen the way you think is best it's just that it's not the way God wants things to be. but the truth is there, and your given brain should be enough for you to find which religion is the most relevant, and even if you never come to find the right one, and still know your creator and are sincere, you shall be safe.

Why would I ever waste my earthly time, the only time I can be certain of? Why waste this time believing hearsay and praying to a God that is not certain to even exist? When it comes to one of the most important questions, why doesn't God give any indisputable evidence? My rationality has lead me to conclude with a very high degree of certainty that agnosticism towards the issue is the most honest way to live, and a secular sense of morality and values will bring a healthy and happy lifestyle for anyone who adopts them.

Well about differing , this is what God says in the Quran, which could answer your questions:

Mankind was one community; thereafter Allah raised prophets as bearers of glad tidings and warners, as He sent down the Book With truth that He may judge between mankind in that wherein they disputed. And none differed therein save those unto whom it was vouchsafed after the evidences had come to them, out of spite among themselves; then Allah guided those who believed unto the truth of that regarding which they differed, by His leave. Allah guideth whomsoever He listeth unto a path straight. (213) Deem ye that ye will enter the Garden while ye hath not come upon you the like of that which came upon those who have passed away before you There touched them adversity and distress, and shaken were they, until the apostle and those who believed with him said; when cometh the succour of Allah! Lo! verily Allahs succour is nigh. (214) Quran/2

Can you please summarize the main point(s) of this scripture?

Why would you waste your time ?!! what are you even doing here then ? if you think this is wasting time what brought you here, what's happening inside your heart that lead you to give importance to this aspect of your life? The truth is this is very important, and when I first answered you I thought you're an agnostic deist, not an agnostic atheist, so if you're the latter you shouldn't ask about religions yet, but about God! How can you know what religion is accurate if you don't know anything about God yet?! and you're reasoning should be enough to lead you to God my dear, you are the evidence of His existence, it's very simple, if there was no God, there wuold be nothing, and by God I mean a sentient creator at least ..That was 2 verses only from the longest chapter in Quran, it says that people where of one nation (believing in God according to interpreters) then they differed (human nature) so God sent them prophets with law to judge between people with truth, and then people differed about the truth after they received evidence , and the reason they differed is spite between themselves, so God basically guided the true believers
bornofgod
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8/16/2013 9:03:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 6:52:22 PM, Orangatang wrote:
At 8/15/2013 4:47:52 PM, Bullish wrote:
The common argument is "free will". These people believe that free will = good, no matter where it leads.

I understand the free will argument, but this still doesn't negate the fact that God is acting as a trickster.

bornofgod wrote:
Nothing in this world is man-made. God is the creator of all the illusions we believe is real. We're actually invisible energy that has to be processed to give us a defined world to experience life in. God is the invisible creator of energy so it was impossible for man to see God. This is how God is hidden, not that He run into the woods to hide from us.

So chairs aren't man-made? How do you know the world we perceive is an illusion (Please answer without citing the Bible as proof)? It totally could be an illusion but the whole concept of a fake reality is unfalsifiable by principle. So basically I am saying you could never prove it is an illusion. How do you know the universe was created, and was created by an invisible God?

God used this first age and all the worldly things that He had His people build to help us understand who we are and how He created us. How else would you explain to us that w'ere invisible bits of energy?

God is not helping us understand, as you said earlier he is confusing us by leaving us with conflicting religious claims. I have no idea what you mean by invisible bits of energy nor do I see why it is relevant, please elaborate. Hopefully you mean that we are made of a collection of atoms that are not visible by the human eye, however this still does not bear any obvious relevance to the issue.

God planned to confuse His people during this first age. Christians have no idea who God is. All they have is the Bible that was produced by the Roman religious leaders who had all the saints of God killed. This Bible contains all their religious lies and the lies of the Jews who added all their religious laws in it to control people and make lots of money.

The prophecies are the only thing that's needed in the Bible and these are what God has us saints read so He can interpret them for us as we write and speak in our own language. God's wavebits of energy, which is information, has to be taught in a language we can understand so that's why it's processed through our brains first, then it can be understood by us.

Christians don't believe in energy because it doesn't say this in their false Bible. They don't realize that names like Heaven, Christ, Kingdom of God, Light, Eternal Life, Counselor, Holy Spirit, etc. are used to describe invisible energy without entropy.

If you listen to me instead of trying to argue, you might learn about God's deceptive plan to draw out his saints and use them to learn about who we are and how we were created. But as long as you keep trying to argue everything I write or speak, you will not understand what happened during this age or how we'll live in the future.
ethang5
Posts: 4,104
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8/16/2013 9:14:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 4:47:52 PM, Bullish wrote:
The common argument is "free will". These people believe that free will = good, no matter where it leads.

Yet most people would not give up free will even if slavery guaranteed to lead to only good. God values free will because God is love, and love works only with free will. It is important to me that my wife voluntarily loves me even though that comes with the possibility that she can choose to leave me. I fail to see what value her "love" would be to me if she had no other choice but to "love" me.
ethang5
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8/16/2013 10:05:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 3:11:25 AM, Orangatang wrote:
At 8/15/2013 7:38:07 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/14/2013 7:46:04 PM, Orangatang wrote:

Although there is no scientific evidence or reason to believe God "gave" us free will, this still does not negate the fact that from an unbiased perspective, God gives no more obvious or compelling evidence in support of one religion over all others. This may lead a rational thinker to deduce that all religions are equivalent glimpses of the untrue.

http://www.washingtonpost.com...
The maps and what they mean will startle you.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/16/2013 11:59:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 9:14:10 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 4:47:52 PM, Bullish wrote:
The common argument is "free will". These people believe that free will = good, no matter where it leads.

Yet most people would not give up free will even if slavery guaranteed to lead to only good. God values free will because God is love, and love works only with free will. It is important to me that my wife voluntarily loves me even though that comes with the possibility that she can choose to leave me. I fail to see what value her "love" would be to me if she had no other choice but to "love" me.

Liars always attempt to twist God's laws and HIs saints original writings. The Roman religious leaders did a great job in deceiving their Christians with the new testament they produced.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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8/16/2013 12:08:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 3:11:25 AM, Orangatang wrote:
At 8/15/2013 7:38:07 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/14/2013 7:46:04 PM, Orangatang wrote:
There are roughly 4,200 different religions in the world, around 21 of them are major religions, and let's not forget all the various denominations of each. If there was a God, why would he allow us to become divided on the issue?

Maybe he gave us free will to decide what we believe?

Although there is no scientific evidence or reason to believe God "gave" us free will, this still does not negate the fact that from an unbiased perspective, God gives no more obvious or compelling evidence in support of one religion over all others. This may lead a rational thinker to deduce that all religions are equivalent glimpses of the untrue.

No rational thinker would deduce that all religions have the equivalent chances of being true.

Why doesn't any religious group receive any statistically measurable benefits that other people do not?

Should we expect to see this?

We should if God wants people to be convinced that one religion is true. This would also establish comfort in those that are unsure of his existence or his omnibenevolence.

What if God doesn't want people to be convinced based on the fact that his followers receive a great amount of benefits? Maybe he wants people to convinced in other ways...

Wouldn't you expect God to treat his "actual" followers with objectively observable benefits?

I wouldn't

Why not? If God only helps those in one religious group then it should be quite obvious.

That still doesn't explain why we would expect God to do that.

It is rational that God should provide a consensus of religion to all people for this would progress the human condition and end religious wars and conflicts.

I certainly wish it was such, but I do not think we should expect God to do this.

I understand you do not expect this, now please tell me why not? I thought God was effective and rational in his plan for humans. If you can find one way in which God's plan is more rational in both the long and short term, then you have proved that God's plan is not maximally effective/rational.

How would anyone go about doing that with our epistemological limitations?
Orangatang
Posts: 442
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8/16/2013 12:52:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 7:09:04 AM, Fruitytree wrote:

Why would you waste your time ?!! what are you even doing here then ? if you think this is wasting time what brought you here, what's happening inside your heart that lead you to give importance to this aspect of your life? The truth is this is very important, and when I first answered you I thought you're an agnostic deist, not an agnostic atheist, so if you're the latter you shouldn't ask about religions yet, but about God! How can you know what religion is accurate if you don't know anything about God yet?! and you're reasoning should be enough to lead you to God my dear, you are the evidence of His existence, it's very simple, if there was no God, there wuold be nothing, and by God I mean a sentient creator at least ..That was 2 verses only from the longest chapter in Quran, it says that people where of one nation (believing in God according to interpreters) then they differed (human nature) so God sent them prophets with law to judge between people with truth, and then people differed about the truth after they received evidence , and the reason they differed is spite between themselves, so God basically guided the true believers

No, you do not get the gist of my argument. I agree completely that the question of the existence of God is of the utmost importance but I do not want to waste my time believing things until I have some real compelling proof of God. Please do not tell me I know nothing about God, I was a fervent believer for nearly 19 years, evidence and rational arguments swayed me otherwise. I now see quite clearly that it is much more likely that man created God rather than God creating man. My existence is not evidence for God, that is a non sequitur. Abiogenesis allowed for evolution through natural selection, which then lead to complex, conscious organisms like humans. As for the universe, it may have been created through completely naturalistic causes. However, anyone who claims to know absolutely how the universe began should automatically be shunned from the conversation, as this truth is unknowable to humans at the moment. I have held two debates on the topic as well (won both), and I would like you to read them if you want to know many of the reasons as to why belief in God is irrational/unjustified.
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Orangatang
Posts: 442
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8/16/2013 12:57:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 9:03:52 AM, bornofgod wrote:
God planned to confuse His people during this first age. Christians have no idea who God is. All they have is the Bible that was produced by the Roman religious leaders who had all the saints of God killed. This Bible contains all their religious lies and the lies of the Jews who added all their religious laws in it to control people and make lots of money.

The prophecies are the only thing that's needed in the Bible and these are what God has us saints read so He can interpret them for us as we write and speak in our own language. God's wavebits of energy, which is information, has to be taught in a language we can understand so that's why it's processed through our brains first, then it can be understood by us.

Christians don't believe in energy because it doesn't say this in their false Bible. They don't realize that names like Heaven, Christ, Kingdom of God, Light, Eternal Life, Counselor, Holy Spirit, etc. are used to describe invisible energy without entropy.

If you listen to me instead of trying to argue, you might learn about God's deceptive plan to draw out his saints and use them to learn about who we are and how we were created. But as long as you keep trying to argue everything I write or speak, you will not understand what happened during this age or how we'll live in the future.

Whoa dude I really should just listen to Bullish and ignore you as you blabber completely unsupported nonsense. If you want anyone to believe or even listen to you, you have to support it with a valid argument and evidence. Telling people "if you listen to me instead of trying to argue" you will never convince anyone; you are making the fallacy of argument from authority.
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Orangatang
Posts: 442
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8/16/2013 1:04:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 10:05:32 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 8/16/2013 3:11:25 AM, Orangatang wrote:
At 8/15/2013 7:38:07 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/14/2013 7:46:04 PM, Orangatang wrote:

Although there is no scientific evidence or reason to believe God "gave" us free will, this still does not negate the fact that from an unbiased perspective, God gives no more obvious or compelling evidence in support of one religion over all others. This may lead a rational thinker to deduce that all religions are equivalent glimpses of the untrue.

http://www.washingtonpost.com...
The maps and what they mean will startle you.

No actually, these maps and their implications do not startle me at all. I knew Christians held the majority of belief, still does not make their claims true. You are appealing to the fallacious argument ad populum. Please, people on the religious forums, try to rebut with a non-fallacious argument. These last three post replies I had to point out three different fallacious arguments consecutively.
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Orangatang
Posts: 442
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8/16/2013 1:32:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 12:08:07 PM, stubs wrote:
Although there is no scientific evidence or reason to believe God "gave" us free will, this still does not negate the fact that from an unbiased perspective, God gives no more obvious or compelling evidence in support of one religion over all others. This may lead a rational thinker to deduce that all religions are equivalent glimpses of the untrue.

No rational thinker would deduce that all religions have the equivalent chances of being true.

So you are claiming that all atheists are not rational? Because this is exactly what we atheists believe and do so with great justification. Holy books are either completely true, or not. If only one claim of your holy book is untrue in you religion, then your religion is as untrue as every other holy book with at least one false claim. Each main religion's holy book is also quite contradictory with itself.

What if God doesn't want people to be convinced based on the fact that his followers receive a great amount of benefits? Maybe he wants people to convinced in other ways...

It is more rational if God gives benefits. Otherwise, what is the point of following a religion in which God does not support?

I understand you do not expect this, now please tell me why not? I thought God was effective and rational in his plan for humans. If you can find one way in which God's plan is more rational in both the long and short term, then you have proved that God's plan is not maximally effective/rational.

How would anyone go about doing that with our epistemological limitations?

We don't have to know everything to know that God proving himself is more effective and rational than hiding.
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stubs
Posts: 1,887
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8/16/2013 1:52:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 1:32:09 PM, Orangatang wrote:
At 8/16/2013 12:08:07 PM, stubs wrote:
Although there is no scientific evidence or reason to believe God "gave" us free will, this still does not negate the fact that from an unbiased perspective, God gives no more obvious or compelling evidence in support of one religion over all others. This may lead a rational thinker to deduce that all religions are equivalent glimpses of the untrue.

No rational thinker would deduce that all religions have the equivalent chances of being true.

So you are claiming that all atheists are not rational? Because this is exactly what we atheists believe and do so with great justification.

No intelligent atheist takes that position. You really think a religion like say, Christianity, is as likely to be true say, Zen Buddhism?

Holy books are either completely true, or not. If only one claim of your holy book is untrue in you religion, then your religion is as untrue as every other holy book with at least one false claim. Each main religion's holy book is also quite contradictory with itself.

What if God doesn't want people to be convinced based on the fact that his followers receive a great amount of benefits? Maybe he wants people to convinced in other ways...

It is more rational if God gives benefits. Otherwise, what is the point of following a religion in which God does not support?

What if these benefits are not able to be seen a this point in time?

I understand you do not expect this, now please tell me why not? I thought God was effective and rational in his plan for humans. If you can find one way in which God's plan is more rational in both the long and short term, then you have proved that God's plan is not maximally effective/rational.

How would anyone go about doing that with our epistemological limitations?

We don't have to know everything to know that God proving himself is more effective and rational than hiding.

Based upon the philosophy of science that I have done some studying on and the historical evidence, which I have done more extensive research on, it does not seem to me that God is hiding at all.