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Is God Malevolent?

JadieBee
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8/16/2013 7:19:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hey, y'all~
I'm new to this site, so I'm making this thread just to get my feet wet. ^^

Any who, I was a born and raised Christian, who is slowly, but surely, transferring over into agnostic atheism. After questioning my belief and using my brain, I've taken a good, hard look at the Scriptures, and often thought: "If God is so good, and so worried about our well-being and our souls, why create evil in the first place?"

I mean, really? Why create such a perfect, wonderful universe, and the concept of Heaven and have a wonderful Creation, only to have it soiled by Lucifer and the eternal torture of Hell? This issue has bothered me since I was old enough to comprehend the Bible (around the age of 6). I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts on the issue (believers and non-believers alike)

I'll leave you with a famous quote from Epicurus, which I think sums this up to the tee:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
Today, you are you,
That is truer than true,
There is no one alive,
That is youer than you.
- Dr. Seuss
Cobo
Posts: 556
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8/16/2013 7:35:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 7:19:38 PM, JadieBee wrote:
Hey, y'all~
I'm new to this site, so I'm making this thread just to get my feet wet. ^^

Any who, I was a born and raised Christian, who is slowly, but surely, transferring over into agnostic atheism. After questioning my belief and using my brain, I've taken a good, hard look at the Scriptures, and often thought: "If God is so good, and so worried about our well-being and our souls, why create evil in the first place?"

I mean, really? Why create such a perfect, wonderful universe, and the concept of Heaven and have a wonderful Creation, only to have it soiled by Lucifer and the eternal torture of Hell? This issue has bothered me since I was old enough to comprehend the Bible (around the age of 6). I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts on the issue (believers and non-believers alike)

I'll leave you with a famous quote from Epicurus, which I think sums this up to the tee:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?


You can't attribute human like qualities to a higher being.
Church of the BANHAMMER GODS priest
JadieBee
Posts: 18
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8/16/2013 7:59:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You can't attribute human like qualities to a higher being.

Even so, shouldn't an omnipotent, all-knowing being know better? Why create evil if your Creation is "perfect"? Saying you can't attribute human like qualities to a higher being is like saying "it is the way it is, so don't question it".

If God created evil, then He Himself is, by default, evil.

If He didn't create evil, but can't control it, his is not all-powerful, and therefore, not God.
Today, you are you,
That is truer than true,
There is no one alive,
That is youer than you.
- Dr. Seuss
Cobo
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8/16/2013 8:07:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 7:59:22 PM, JadieBee wrote:
You can't attribute human like qualities to a higher being.

Even so, shouldn't an omnipotent, all-knowing being know better? Why create evil if your Creation is "perfect"? Saying you can't attribute human like qualities to a higher being is like saying "it is the way it is, so don't question it".

No, it's saying God is a completely different entity that doesn't conform to our human perception of values

If God created evil, then He Himself is, by default, evil.

Evil is subjective

If He didn't create evil, but can't control it, his is not all-powerful, and therefore, not God.

God chose to kick out Lucifer...
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Disquisition
Posts: 391
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8/16/2013 8:13:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I posted this somewhere else but I think it answers your question.

God created us with the propensity to sin only because he gave us free-will. So Let's think for a moment, if God didn't give us free-will then we would essentially be robots that couldn't make our own decisions. So the question isn't why God made us with the propensity to sin, in actuality it's why did we purposely manipulate his God-given free-will to sin against him. And the answer to that is human curiosity and temptation, with the tempter being satan.

Common refute 1: Why did God create satan if he would tempt mankind, well satan had the same free-will we had and he choose to rebel

Common refute 2: That's Adam's fault not mine (our) so why is God punishing me (us) ? Well God just choose Adam to represent mankind, much like we choose leaders to represent a body of people. Does everyone agree with the election of a certain political leader, no, but does that matter when they are in office.
JadieBee
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8/16/2013 8:18:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
No, it's saying God is a completely different entity that doesn't conform to our human perception of values

But didn't He give us our sense of morality? A conscience? Weren't we made in His image? If God gave us a brain and intelligence, I should be able to use it to understand Him better (or at least try to).

Evil is subjective

Fair enough, but what about all the the horrible things that happen in the world? Hunger, war, genocide, rape, natural disasters. Why doesn't God just keep all of this from happening? And don't tell me it's some part of His "Master Plan"....

God chose to kick out Lucifer...

In the Bible, Lucifer is called the 'Prince of the World', is he not? He, allegedly, causes a majority of the awful things that happen in the world, or "possesses" people to commit immorality. God sits back on the clouds and watches this happen. Which goes back to my main point: Either He can't stop Lucifer, or doesn't want to.
Today, you are you,
That is truer than true,
There is no one alive,
That is youer than you.
- Dr. Seuss
Naysayer
Posts: 746
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8/16/2013 8:25:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 8:18:10 PM, JadieBee wrote:
No, it's saying God is a completely different entity that doesn't conform to our human perception of values

But didn't He give us our sense of morality? A conscience? Weren't we made in His image? If God gave us a brain and intelligence, I should be able to use it to understand Him better (or at least try to).

Evil is subjective

Fair enough, but what about all the the horrible things that happen in the world? Hunger, war, genocide, rape, natural disasters. Why doesn't God just keep all of this from happening? And don't tell me it's some part of His "Master Plan"....

God chose to kick out Lucifer...

In the Bible, Lucifer is called the 'Prince of the World', is he not? He, allegedly, causes a majority of the awful things that happen in the world, or "possesses" people to commit immorality. God sits back on the clouds and watches this happen. Which goes back to my main point: Either He can't stop Lucifer, or doesn't want to.

Just slowly transferring out of Christianity, huh? I hate to bring up the word agenda...
JadieBee
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8/16/2013 8:38:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
God created us with the propensity to sin only because he gave us free-will. So Let's think for a moment, if God didn't give us free-will then we would essentially be robots that couldn't make our own decisions. So the question isn't why God made us with the propensity to sin, in actuality it's why did we purposely manipulate his God-given free-will to sin against him. And the answer to that is human curiosity and temptation, with the tempter being satan.

Okay then. Let me give you an example: Two men walk up to a woman and her son along a sidewalk, and subdue them. One man tries to rob the woman, while the other threatens to murder her son.

Now God, being omnipotent, can stop this with one lift of a finger. Through some divine intervention, a woman and her son could be safe, and two men stopped from committing a crime. Police and good Samaritans do this all the time: How is stopping a criminal from committing a crime altering their free will?

And even so, how is Heaven or Hell a fair punishment for those who commit sin? People who go to Hell don't learn from their mistakes. They don't come out of the other side a better person-- They don't come out at all. That still doesn't un-traumitize the woman, or un-murder the child, and two people who could have been used as a vessel for good are tormented for eternity.

Common refute 1: Why did God create satan if he would tempt mankind, well satan had the same free-will we had and he choose to rebel

Fair enough. But why didn't God try to stop Him instead of waiting hundreds of years? He still very well has influence over us, according to the Bible. Plus, God knew in advance that he would rebel.

Common refute 2: That's Adam's fault not mine (our) so why is God punishing me (us) ? Well God just choose Adam to represent mankind, much like we choose leaders to represent a body of people. Does everyone agree with the election of a certain political leader, no, but does that matter when they are in office.

That I can understand. I often found myself wondering why God just didn't start again after Adam and Eve (the story of Noah comes to mind), but man just repeated his mistakes. Humanity in a nutshell... ^^;
Today, you are you,
That is truer than true,
There is no one alive,
That is youer than you.
- Dr. Seuss
JadieBee
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8/16/2013 8:43:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Just slowly transferring out of Christianity, huh? I hate to bring up the word agenda...

Okay, maybe "slowly" wasn't the most accurate word. But I still have lingering questions. That's why I'm an agnostic: there could very well be a God, I can't prove that there isn't. And I would love to believe in the notion that there was. But my logic and rationality simply can't understand the way the (Christian) God works the way He does and the system He has in place. That's why I'm asking.

I don't have an agenda, I'm simply asking questions. And if a believer's arguments can't stand against my own, why should I believe?
Today, you are you,
That is truer than true,
There is no one alive,
That is youer than you.
- Dr. Seuss
atheismo
Posts: 53
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8/16/2013 8:59:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
yes god is malevolent

1. God killed Jesus
2. You should not kill your son
3. therefore God is evil
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" - Carl Sagan
Disquisition
Posts: 391
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8/16/2013 9:19:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 8:38:14 PM, JadieBee wrote:


Okay then. Let me give you an example: Two men walk up to a woman and her son along a sidewalk, and subdue them. One man tries to rob the woman, while the other threatens to murder her son.

Now God, being omnipotent, can stop this with one lift of a finger. Through some divine intervention, a woman and her son could be safe, and two men stopped from committing a crime. Police and good Samaritans do this all the time: How is stopping a criminal from committing a crime altering their free will?

I see your trying to bring the matter of free will to a case by case basis but we have to look at the overall scope of things. By your line of thinking you would want a perfect society where we are forced by God to be perfect. He didn't design it this way, rather he wants us to willingly decide to worship him rather than coerce us. This is a attribute of him making us in his own image.

And even so, how is Heaven or Hell a fair punishment for those who commit sin? People who go to Hell don't learn from their mistakes. They don't come out of the other side a better person-- They don't come out at all. That still doesn't un-traumitize the woman, or un-murder the child, and two people who could have been used as a vessel for good are tormented for eternity.

Hell is a final punishment for those who had the opportunity to accept God and reject him. What do you mean it isn't fair, the fact that we are all breathing shows his mercy. God gives everyone an amble amount of time to decide but we ultimately must be judged. If someone killed your loved one, would you want the criminal to just walk free without being properly judged?

In regards to your last statement God can't use people as vessels of they don't accept the fact that he exist.

Common refute 1: Why did God create satan if he would tempt mankind, well satan had the same free-will we had and he choose to rebel

Fair enough. But why didn't God try to stop Him instead of waiting hundreds of years? He still very well has influence over us, according to the Bible. Plus, God knew in advance that he would rebel.

Actually the devil has as much influence over us as we allow him to have (post crucifixion) . And look at the story of Job, Satan could only do what God allowed him to do to Job.

For you last statement yes God did know in advance that satan would tempt man causing (man) to become sinful, meaning he (man) severed the relationship with God out of his on accord. Since he knew all of this he sent his son so that we may have an avenue back to God. We only get to father through the son.

Common refute 2: That's Adam's fault not mine (our) so why is God punishing me (us) ? Well God just choose Adam to represent mankind, much like we choose leaders to represent a body of people. Does everyone agree with the election of a certain political leader, no, but does that matter when they are in office.

That I can understand. I often found myself wondering why God just didn't start again after Adam and Eve (the story of Noah comes to mind), but man just repeated his mistakes. Humanity in a nutshell... ^^;

Due to man's shortcomings he (God) offered his son so that our mistakes would be forgiven :)
Disquisition
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8/16/2013 9:19:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 8:59:11 PM, atheismo wrote:
yes god is malevolent

1. God killed Jesus
2. You should not kill your son
3. therefore God is evil

Do you know why God killed his son
atheismo
Posts: 53
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8/16/2013 10:11:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 9:19:57 PM, Disquisition wrote:
At 8/16/2013 8:59:11 PM, atheismo wrote:
yes god is malevolent

1. God killed Jesus
2. You should not kill your son
3. therefore God is evil

Do you know why God killed his son

yeah bc god needed to take away the sins but if he is omnipowerful why didnt he just take away the sins that way.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" - Carl Sagan
Cobo
Posts: 556
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8/16/2013 10:11:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 8:18:10 PM, JadieBee wrote:
No, it's saying God is a completely different entity that doesn't conform to our human perception of values

But didn't He give us our sense of morality? A conscience? Weren't we made in His image? If God gave us a brain and intelligence, I should be able to use it to understand Him better (or at least try to).

Made in his image refers to how we look, cause for all we know, God might not have the same bodily systems

Evil is subjective

Fair enough, but what about all the the horrible things that happen in the world? Hunger, war, genocide, rape, natural disasters. Why doesn't God just keep all of this from happening? And don't tell me it's some part of His "Master Plan"....

Again, these are all problems that you deem immoral
God chose to kick out Lucifer...

In the Bible, Lucifer is called the 'Prince of the World', is he not? He, allegedly, causes a majority of the awful things that happen in the world, or "possesses" people to commit immorality. God sits back on the clouds and watches this happen. Which goes back to my main point: Either He can't stop Lucifer, or doesn't want to.

He is called Prince of the world because he posses qualities of the world such as the ability to lie and such.
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Disquisition
Posts: 391
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8/16/2013 10:15:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 10:01:26 PM, Bullish wrote:
All these arguments are presupposing the existence of this god.

Well yeah, she has apparently turned into a agonistic from Christianity, which is somewhat hard to believe

However that fact states that she had fully accepted God was real and now she is vacillating in her belief by making this thread. That was pretty obvious, why did you feel as thought it was necessary to point that out.
popculturepooka
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8/16/2013 10:16:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 10:15:33 PM, Disquisition wrote:
At 8/16/2013 10:01:26 PM, Bullish wrote:
All these arguments are presupposing the existence of this god.

Well yeah, she has apparently turned into a agonistic from Christianity, which is somewhat hard to believe


What? Why is that somewhat hard to believe?

However that fact states that she had fully accepted God was real and now she is vacillating in her belief by making this thread. That was pretty obvious, why did you feel as thought it was necessary to point that out.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Disquisition
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8/16/2013 10:22:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 10:16:55 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
What? Why is that somewhat hard to believe?

Actually I can't make a logical answer to this question without knowing what her church believed in and what she did in her church.
Disquisition
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8/16/2013 10:23:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 10:11:04 PM, atheismo wrote:
yeah bc god needed to take away the sins but if he is omnipowerful why didnt he just take away the sins that way.

Read my post in this thread, they answer this question.
JadieBee
Posts: 18
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8/16/2013 11:02:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I see your trying to bring the matter of free will to a case by case basis but we have to look at the overall scope of things. By your line of thinking you would want a perfect society where we are forced by God to be perfect. He didn't design it this way, rather he wants us to willingly decide to worship him rather than coerce us. This is a attribute of him making us in his own image.

Not to be perfect, but at least make the world a better place to live. There are so many cases like the one I stated and thousands of others that are much worse. Especially when people claim God still performs "miracles".

Hell is a final punishment for those who had the opportunity to accept God and reject him. What do you mean it isn't fair, the fact that we are all breathing shows his mercy. God gives everyone an amble amount of time to decide but we ultimately must be judged. If someone killed your loved one, would you want the criminal to just walk free without being properly judged?

The fact that we are breathing shows that we are alive. And some people that are medically ill don't even get that privilege without the help of medicine.

The concept of Hell is actually one of the main reasons I began to question my faith-- it seems that Hell was a concept created to scare people into believing (also what kept me tied to my faith for many years, and still does, in some small way). And I don't see how living a life of finite sins compensates for hellfire and torture for all of eternity- logically, that isn't fair. I can't think of one person- not ONE- who deserves that, not even mass murders and other criminals of that caliber. Of course, a murderer deserves good thousand years of that, sure, but not forever.

It's like your being robbed, and when the robber asks for your wallet, they say: "Well, you don't have to give me your wallet, it's your choice. But I'll shoot you repeatedly if you don't."

In regards to your last statement God can't use people as vessels of they don't accept the fact that he exist.

That brings up another question I have; what about people who live and die without ever knowing the story of Jesus, or were raised to believe in other gods. Would they, too, be punished?

Actually the devil has as much influence over us as we allow him to have (post crucifixion) . And look at the story of Job, Satan could only do what God allowed him to do to Job.

Ah, the story of Job~ Now this was interesting. That's exactly my point; God allowed those terrible things to happen to Job, even when he stayed faithful to God, and begged, and pleaded to Him. Sure, God paid him back with his material possessions, but to me it seems that the story lumps children in the same category as material possessions. One child does not replace another...

Due to man's shortcomings he (God) offered his son so that our mistakes would be forgiven :)

I also have a few doubts with the story behind the Crucifixion, but that's another topic for another day. :3
Today, you are you,
That is truer than true,
There is no one alive,
That is youer than you.
- Dr. Seuss
bulproof
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8/16/2013 11:10:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 8:13:17 PM, Disquisition wrote:
I posted this somewhere else but I think it answers your question.


God created us with the propensity to sin only because he gave us free-will. So Let's think for a moment, if God didn't give us free-will then we would essentially be robots that couldn't make our own decisions. So the question isn't why God made us with the propensity to sin, in actuality it's why did we purposely manipulate his God-given free-will to sin against him. And the answer to that is human curiosity and temptation, with the tempter being satan.

Common refute 1: Why did God create satan if he would tempt mankind, well satan had the same free-will we had and he choose to rebel

Common refute 2: That's Adam's fault not mine (our) so why is God punishing me (us) ? Well God just choose Adam to represent mankind, much like we choose leaders to represent a body of people. Does everyone agree with the election of a certain political leader, no, but does that matter when they are in office.

cobo says your not allowed to give god human attributes, what prevented god from creating us with free will and no propensity to "sin" (whatever that means)
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
JadieBee
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8/16/2013 11:15:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Made in his image refers to how we look, cause for all we know, God might not have the same bodily systems

Okay, but excluding that statement, doesn't He still want us to have some sort of understanding as to how He thinks? The evidence presented to me by the Christian community, along with my own knowledge and understanding, has logically led me to believe that God might be malevolent, if He exists.

Again, these are all problems that you deem immoral

Yes, but they are also objective. Almost everyone on this planet would agree that rape, for example, was bad, because it has a negative physical and emotional impact on the people it affects. Therefore, rape is wrong.

That's not my opinion, that is fact.

He is called Prince of the world because he posses qualities of the world such as the ability to lie and such.

Yes, but again, God refuses/is unable to stop Him.
Today, you are you,
That is truer than true,
There is no one alive,
That is youer than you.
- Dr. Seuss
JadieBee
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8/16/2013 11:27:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Actually I can't make a logical answer to this question without knowing what her church believed in and what she did in her church.

Actually, the church I attend now (my parents are members), I'm not quite sure what denomination they are. Here's a basic list of what they believed in that I pulled off their website: http://crossoverchurch.tv...

-There is one God eternally existent in 3 Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
- In the deity of Christ, His virgin birth, His sinless life, His miracles, His atoning death through His shed blood, His bodily resurrection,
- His ascension to the right hand of the Father, and His personal return in power and glory.
- Regeneration by the Holy Spirit is essential for the salvation of the lost.
- In the present ministry of the Holy Spirit, through whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a godly life.
- In the resurrection of the saved and the lost; the saved unto the resurrection of life and the lost unto the resurrection of damnation.
- We believe in the spiritual unity of believers in Christ.

I attended a baptist church before that. Other churches we also attended, but I was too young too remember them off the top of my head. ^^;
Today, you are you,
That is truer than true,
There is no one alive,
That is youer than you.
- Dr. Seuss
JadieBee
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8/16/2013 11:41:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 11:04:35 PM, Disquisition wrote:
Sry I'll catch ya tomorrow it's like 11pm in H-town bout to catch them ZZZ

No problem, G'night~! :3
Today, you are you,
That is truer than true,
There is no one alive,
That is youer than you.
- Dr. Seuss
Dragonfang
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8/17/2013 1:09:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I am a bit confused.

The OP proves that God exists and then makes an argument that he does exist...
JadieBee
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8/17/2013 1:25:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 1:09:03 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
I am a bit confused.

The OP proves that God exists and then makes an argument that he does exist...

When did I ever prove that God exists...? o.o; As far as I know, no person has ever single-handedly proven that, and it definitely isn't me.

Second, I'm not arguing that God exists- please point out what point in the conversation that I was. I was simply debating God's moral system and character if He were to exist. This topic is totally hypothetical- I don't even believe in God.

Hope that cleared up some confusion. ^^;
Today, you are you,
That is truer than true,
There is no one alive,
That is youer than you.
- Dr. Seuss
Dragonfang
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8/17/2013 2:01:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 1:25:51 AM, JadieBee wrote:
At 8/17/2013 1:09:03 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
I am a bit confused.

The OP proves that God exists and then makes an argument that he does exist...

When did I ever prove that God exists...? o.o; As far as I know, no person has ever single-handedly proven that, and it definitely isn't me.

Second, I'm not arguing that God exists- please point out what point in the conversation that I was. I was simply debating God's moral system and character if He were to exist. This topic is totally hypothetical- I don't even believe in God.

Hope that cleared up some confusion. ^^;

You believe that evil exists. Therefore, you believe in objective morals. If objective morals exists then God exists.

There is no supreme authority that decides whether something is good or evil except God. Without God it would be hypocrisy to call something Good or Evil.
There are two ways that morality can be explained without the concept of God, but neither of them are objective morality. 1- Social Pressure. 2- Evolutionary means.

1- Social Pressure.
Based on social pressure, the actions of Hitler are not evil because the Nazi society defined them as good. Laws are changeable, and from an other society's outlook what you consider evil would not be evil at all. Basically, morality is relative. Thus good and evil does not exist and can be redefined at any time whenever convenient.
Lets assume you are among a squad of five soldiers in times of war, you are in a secluded Island and there is a woman from the enemy nation. The other four soldiers decided to gang rape her. Is there a logical reason to not join in?
Can you justify Human Rights with logic? From a material pov we are not equal and it is against our interest.

2- Evolutionary means.
Evolution is about change. Maybe historical genocide figures had a different set of moral instincts. Maybe our morals will evolve to justify killing in the future. We cannot call something good or evil that way.
We don't see a lion hunting and be like: "That lion is immoral!!!". Why is survival of the fittest wrong? Why shouldn't we encourage disabled people to suicide since that would be more efficient for society? Is it OK to prevent people with genetic diseases to reproduce?

If you recognize that Good and Evil exists then God exists. If you believe that morals are relative and changing then you cannot judge anything morally.

Furthermore, God is Omniscient. Which means he is all wise. So when calling him unwise you are either claiming to be omniscient or it is an argument from ignorance. Just because we do not see the wisdom does not mean it does not exist.

The "Evil" in this world does have wisdom when you think about it. It gives us motivation and purpose. We seek knowledge because the pain of ignorance drives us, we improve our lives to remove discomfort. We socialize and form communities because we seek safety and to remove loneliness. Guess why we pray to God? You think we would without "Evil"? Only a being such as God can be considered perfect, but those with those ills we seek perfection. So in a way "Evil" is what motivates us to be humans.
What makes your body stronger makes your mind weaker. And what makes your body weaker makes your mind stronger. There is probably no true evil in nature, it contributes to balance somehow. Just reefer to Mao Zedong when he wanted to start an other genocide and established the "Four Pest Campaign".
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8/17/2013 2:11:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 2:01:16 AM, Dragonfang wrote:

You believe that evil exists. Therefore, you believe in objective morals. If objective morals exists then God exists.
This would have to be one of the stupidest statements ever given voice. It is also meaninglessly STUPID.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin