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bornofgod
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8/17/2013 5:20:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 5:14:26 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
When debating the PoE, is it the BOP on the atheist or theist to show God had a reason to allow evil?

God didn't allow evil. He created it to deceive all His people.

Deuteronomy 32
39: "`See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
NightofTheLivingCats
Posts: 2,294
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8/17/2013 5:23:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 5:20:01 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:14:26 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
When debating the PoE, is it the BOP on the atheist or theist to show God had a reason to allow evil?

God didn't allow evil. He created it to deceive all His people.

Deuteronomy 32
39: "`See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

So God is evil?
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/17/2013 5:24:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 5:23:06 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:20:01 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:14:26 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
When debating the PoE, is it the BOP on the atheist or theist to show God had a reason to allow evil?

God didn't allow evil. He created it to deceive all His people.

Deuteronomy 32
39: "`See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

So God is evil?

He's everything. He even created religion to deceive His people from knowing Him.
NightofTheLivingCats
Posts: 2,294
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8/17/2013 5:24:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 5:24:00 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:23:06 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:20:01 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:14:26 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
When debating the PoE, is it the BOP on the atheist or theist to show God had a reason to allow evil?

God didn't allow evil. He created it to deceive all His people.

Deuteronomy 32
39: "`See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

So God is evil?

He's everything. He even created religion to deceive His people from knowing Him.

You're an idiot.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/17/2013 5:26:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 5:24:42 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:24:00 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:23:06 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:20:01 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:14:26 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
When debating the PoE, is it the BOP on the atheist or theist to show God had a reason to allow evil?

God didn't allow evil. He created it to deceive all His people.

Deuteronomy 32
39: "`See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

So God is evil?

He's everything. He even created religion to deceive His people from knowing Him.

You're an idiot.

Did I take your lies away from you?

It's no fun to argue with the Truth, is it?
Magic8000
Posts: 975
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8/17/2013 5:30:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 5:14:26 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
When debating the PoE, is it the BOP on the atheist or theist to show God had a reason to allow evil?

I would say the BOP is on the theist. All the atheist has to do is present the POE and defend it, imo.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/17/2013 5:39:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 5:30:33 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:14:26 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
When debating the PoE, is it the BOP on the atheist or theist to show God had a reason to allow evil?

I would say the BOP is on the theist. All the atheist has to do is present the POE and defend it, imo.

That's because neither atheist or theist has the Truth. It's easy for liars to keep arguing with each other but it's impossible for atheists or theists to argue with the Truth.
NightofTheLivingCats
Posts: 2,294
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8/17/2013 6:22:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 5:26:05 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:24:42 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:24:00 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:23:06 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:20:01 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:14:26 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
When debating the PoE, is it the BOP on the atheist or theist to show God had a reason to allow evil?

God didn't allow evil. He created it to deceive all His people.

Deuteronomy 32
39: "`See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

So God is evil?

He's everything. He even created religion to deceive His people from knowing Him.

You're an idiot.

Did I take your lies away from you?

It's no fun to argue with the Truth, is it?

lol. it's great to have an other Geo here.
ExsurgeDomine
Posts: 176
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8/17/2013 6:51:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 5:14:26 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
When debating the PoE, is it the BOP on the atheist or theist to show God had a reason to allow evil?

Theist.
Naysayer
Posts: 746
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8/17/2013 7:44:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 5:23:57 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
Nice job troll.

I'm starting to wonder if borno is a bot, actually. Which would make him really funny in my opinion. The answers are nearly automatic.
Magic8000
Posts: 975
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8/17/2013 11:49:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 5:39:31 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:30:33 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:14:26 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
When debating the PoE, is it the BOP on the atheist or theist to show God had a reason to allow evil?

I would say the BOP is on the theist. All the atheist has to do is present the POE and defend it, imo.

That's because neither atheist or theist has the Truth. It's easy for liars to keep arguing with each other but it's impossible for atheists or theists to argue with the Truth.

Either God does exist or he doesn't. One has to have some truth. This is the law of excluded middle.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
DakotaKrafick
Posts: 1,517
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8/17/2013 11:54:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 5:14:26 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
When debating the PoE, is it the BOP on the atheist or theist to show God had a reason to allow evil?

Why would the atheist want to prove that God has a reason to allow evil? That said, depending on the wording of the PoE, the burden of proof is on the atheist to show that God cannot (or likely doesn't) have a morally-sufficient reason to allow evil.

It's the atheist who's advancing such an argument; why would the theist have any burden of proof at all?
bornofgod
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8/18/2013 9:26:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 11:49:15 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:39:31 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:30:33 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:14:26 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
When debating the PoE, is it the BOP on the atheist or theist to show God had a reason to allow evil?

I would say the BOP is on the theist. All the atheist has to do is present the POE and defend it, imo.

That's because neither atheist or theist has the Truth. It's easy for liars to keep arguing with each other but it's impossible for atheists or theists to argue with the Truth.

Either God does exist or he doesn't. One has to have some truth. This is the law of excluded middle.

Atheists and theists worship false gods. Neither of them knows our Creator like us saints do.

The reason there are atheists is because they don't believe in the false gods of religious people who are totally deceived by the energy of God that gives us the illusions of this world.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/18/2013 9:31:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 7:44:22 PM, Naysayer wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:23:57 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
Nice job troll.

I'm starting to wonder if borno is a bot, actually. Which would make him really funny in my opinion. The answers are nearly automatic.

I'm a saint who has the knowledge of God to know that atheists and Christians are liars who have no Truth in them to know their flesh is lying to them.
Magic8000
Posts: 975
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8/18/2013 10:53:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/18/2013 9:26:45 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/17/2013 11:49:15 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:39:31 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:30:33 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:14:26 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
When debating the PoE, is it the BOP on the atheist or theist to show God had a reason to allow evil?

I would say the BOP is on the theist. All the atheist has to do is present the POE and defend it, imo.

That's because neither atheist or theist has the Truth. It's easy for liars to keep arguing with each other but it's impossible for atheists or theists to argue with the Truth.

Either God does exist or he doesn't. One has to have some truth. This is the law of excluded middle.

Atheists and theists worship false gods. Neither of them knows our Creator like us saints do.

The reason there are atheists is because they don't believe in the false gods of religious people who are totally deceived by the energy of God that gives us the illusions of this world.

Theism doesn't tell you which god to worship or believe in. If you say you believe in a creator, then you're a theist. You either believe or not!
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/18/2013 11:02:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/18/2013 10:53:51 AM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 8/18/2013 9:26:45 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/17/2013 11:49:15 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:39:31 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:30:33 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:14:26 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
When debating the PoE, is it the BOP on the atheist or theist to show God had a reason to allow evil?

I would say the BOP is on the theist. All the atheist has to do is present the POE and defend it, imo.

That's because neither atheist or theist has the Truth. It's easy for liars to keep arguing with each other but it's impossible for atheists or theists to argue with the Truth.

Either God does exist or he doesn't. One has to have some truth. This is the law of excluded middle.

Atheists and theists worship false gods. Neither of them knows our Creator like us saints do.

The reason there are atheists is because they don't believe in the false gods of religious people who are totally deceived by the energy of God that gives us the illusions of this world.

Theism doesn't tell you which god to worship or believe in. If you say you believe in a creator, then you're a theist. You either believe or not!

I'm a saint who speaks for our Creator. I don't have to believe in anything because I know things. Belief and knowing are two different things.
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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8/18/2013 12:21:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 5:24:42 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:24:00 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:23:06 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:

So God is evil?

He's everything. He even created religion to deceive His people from knowing Him.

You're an idiot.
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Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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8/18/2013 1:28:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 5:14:26 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
When debating the PoE, is it the BOP on the atheist or theist to show God had a reason to allow evil?

There are certainly things that seem to be gratuitous suffering. Therefore, we are in our right to claim that most likely there is gratuitous suffering. The theist appealing to hidden morally sufficient reasons that God may have doesn't work. If we followed that logic, then even though I appear 6'2, I could be really 10 feet tall. There might be reasons that lead to that conclusion that we are just in the dark about. However, that seems absurd. Even though it's possible that I may be 10 feet tall, I certainly appear to be 6'2. Similarly, even though some suffering may not be gratuitous, it certainly appears to be gratuitous. To deny gratuitous suffering, you might we well deny everything else that appears to be what it is.
NightofTheLivingCats
Posts: 2,294
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8/18/2013 7:09:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/18/2013 1:28:25 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:14:26 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
When debating the PoE, is it the BOP on the atheist or theist to show God had a reason to allow evil?

There are certainly things that seem to be gratuitous suffering. Therefore, we are in our right to claim that most likely there is gratuitous suffering. The theist appealing to hidden morally sufficient reasons that God may have doesn't work. If we followed that logic, then even though I appear 6'2, I could be really 10 feet tall. There might be reasons that lead to that conclusion that we are just in the dark about. However, that seems absurd. Even though it's possible that I may be 10 feet tall, I certainly appear to be 6'2. Similarly, even though some suffering may not be gratuitous, it certainly appears to be gratuitous. To deny gratuitous suffering, you might we well deny everything else that appears to be what it is.

So the theist? lol I get what you are saying.
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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8/18/2013 9:04:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 5:14:26 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
When debating the PoE, is it the BOP on the atheist or theist to show God had a reason to allow evil?

The atheist fields the PoE (problem of evil), establishing that god cannot be
1. omnipotent,
2. omniscient,
3. omnibenevolent, and
4. exist in a universe containing evil.

If the theist says that god tolerates evil for a reason, then the theist is saying that god is not omnibenevolent. He is thus stipulating that the PoE is correct. He is saying that there cannot be a god who is omnibenevolent if he is also omnipotent, omniscient, and coexistent with evil.

So the theist can give god a reason for tolerating evil if he wants to. Whereupon the atheist should point out that that means the theist's god is not omnibenevolent, wherefore the PoE is true.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/19/2013 4:53:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/18/2013 9:04:01 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:14:26 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
When debating the PoE, is it the BOP on the atheist or theist to show God had a reason to allow evil?

The atheist fields the PoE (problem of evil), establishing that god cannot be
1. omnipotent,
2. omniscient,
3. omnibenevolent, and
4. exist in a universe containing evil.

If the theist says that god tolerates evil for a reason, then the theist is saying that god is not omnibenevolent. He is thus stipulating that the PoE is correct. He is saying that there cannot be a god who is omnibenevolent if he is also omnipotent, omniscient, and coexistent with evil.

So the theist can give god a reason for tolerating evil if he wants to. Whereupon the atheist should point out that that means the theist's god is not omnibenevolent, wherefore the PoE is true.

Atheists and theists don't understand that God created good and evil as a deception in the minds of all His people to draw out His servant in the flesh of His prophets and saints. By having a contrast of thoughts ( lies versus truth ) we saints easily identified who our Creator was so every time He comes to work in us, we know who He is. This is the true faith, not the phoney faith that Christians think they have.

Christians think having faith is believing, which are two totally different things. It's easy to believe in all kinds of gods but only saints have faith to know our Creator.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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8/20/2013 11:08:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 5:14:26 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
When debating the PoE, is it the BOP on the atheist or theist to show God had a reason to allow evil?

I would first ask the atheist to prove that objective evil exists. He can't prove its existence without first defining it objectively. An objective definition requires an objective source to tell us what evil is. That objective source can only be a source which has the authority to define good and evil, and since we disagree on what is good and evil, we can't be that objective source. That objective source can only be a deity. The atheist can't prove that objective evil exists, without proving that God also exists, so debate on the issue is unnecessary.
NightofTheLivingCats
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8/20/2013 1:37:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/20/2013 11:08:27 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:14:26 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
When debating the PoE, is it the BOP on the atheist or theist to show God had a reason to allow evil?

I would first ask the atheist to prove that objective evil exists. He can't prove its existence without first defining it objectively. An objective definition requires an objective source to tell us what evil is. That objective source can only be a source which has the authority to define good and evil, and since we disagree on what is good and evil, we can't be that objective source. That objective source can only be a deity. The atheist can't prove that objective evil exists, without proving that God also exists, so debate on the issue is unnecessary.

I disagree. We don't need to know WHAT evil is, just if it exists or not.
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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8/20/2013 1:45:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/20/2013 11:08:27 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:14:26 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
When debating the PoE, is it the BOP on the atheist or theist to show God had a reason to allow evil?

I would first ask the atheist to prove that objective evil exists.

Some people believe all of these things:
1. God exists;
2. Evil exists;
3. God can do anything;
4. God knows everything;
5. God totally wants to prevent evil.

The PoE (problem of evil) points out that those people are wrong. Totally, completely, obviously, foolishly wrong.

You can't defend them by asking atheists to prove that evil exists. They (the theists who believe in the PoE god) are the ones saying evil exists. We (atheists) are the ones pointing out that IF a tri-omni god exists, THEN evil does not exist.

He can't prove its existence without first defining it objectively.

Our point is that it does not exist, not if there is a tri-omni god.

An objective definition requires an objective source to tell us what evil is.

Are you trying to sell the notion that words have "real" definitions, and that those definitions are unknown to the people who use the words? If you were correct, it would follow that you don't know what you are talking about.

That objective source can only be a source which has the authority to define good and evil, and since we disagree on what is good and evil, we can't be that objective source.

"Evil" means whatever people are talking about when they use the word. Fortunately for proponents of the PoE, it doesn't matter what usage you prefer. The PoE is bulletproof regardless of how evil is defined.

Let's have an example:
Suppose there is a god (or a haddoc, it matters not) who hates blueberry pie. He is totally, infinitely, unconflictedly opposed to the existence of blueberry pie. If that god exists, and if he is omnipotent and omniscient, then it follows that blueberry pie does not exist.

Since blueberry pie does exist, we know that this particular god does not exist.

See, bulletproof.

Try is with evil being sea turtles or Laffy Taffy. It works every time, regardless of how you define evil.

Therefore, we don't need to know what you mean by the word "evil." We know that the PoE works for every definition of evil. Anyone who believes that a tri-omni god coexists with evil is patently wrong.

That objective source can only be a deity.

Theists like to claim that, but (a) they never defend the claim, and (b) it wouldn't help them with the PoE even if it were true.

The atheist can't prove that objective evil exists, without proving that God also exists, so debate on the issue is unnecessary.

The debate is unnecessary because the PoE is patently correct. There aren't two sides to this.

Even if you were right that words have no meanings in the absence of gods, and that words do have meanings, and that therefore gods exist, that wouldn't even tend to prove that one of those gods is a tri-omni god who coexists with evil. So we could grant your obscurantist premises without undermining the PoE in the least.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/20/2013 5:33:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/20/2013 1:45:49 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 8/20/2013 11:08:27 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:14:26 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
When debating the PoE, is it the BOP on the atheist or theist to show God had a reason to allow evil?

I would first ask the atheist to prove that objective evil exists.

Some people believe all of these things:
1. God exists;
2. Evil exists;
3. God can do anything;
4. God knows everything;
5. God totally wants to prevent evil.

The PoE (problem of evil) points out that those people are wrong. Totally, completely, obviously, foolishly wrong.

You can't defend them by asking atheists to prove that evil exists. They (the theists who believe in the PoE god) are the ones saying evil exists. We (atheists) are the ones pointing out that IF a tri-omni god exists, THEN evil does not exist.



He can't prove its existence without first defining it objectively.

Our point is that it does not exist, not if there is a tri-omni god.

An objective definition requires an objective source to tell us what evil is.

Are you trying to sell the notion that words have "real" definitions, and that those definitions are unknown to the people who use the words? If you were correct, it would follow that you don't know what you are talking about.

That objective source can only be a source which has the authority to define good and evil, and since we disagree on what is good and evil, we can't be that objective source.

"Evil" means whatever people are talking about when they use the word. Fortunately for proponents of the PoE, it doesn't matter what usage you prefer. The PoE is bulletproof regardless of how evil is defined.

Let's have an example:
Suppose there is a god (or a haddoc, it matters not) who hates blueberry pie. He is totally, infinitely, unconflictedly opposed to the existence of blueberry pie. If that god exists, and if he is omnipotent and omniscient, then it follows that blueberry pie does not exist.

Since blueberry pie does exist, we know that this particular god does not exist.

See, bulletproof.

Try is with evil being sea turtles or Laffy Taffy. It works every time, regardless of how you define evil.

Therefore, we don't need to know what you mean by the word "evil." We know that the PoE works for every definition of evil. Anyone who believes that a tri-omni god coexists with evil is patently wrong.


That objective source can only be a deity.

Theists like to claim that, but (a) they never defend the claim, and (b) it wouldn't help them with the PoE even if it were true.


The atheist can't prove that objective evil exists, without proving that God also exists, so debate on the issue is unnecessary.

The debate is unnecessary because the PoE is patently correct. There aren't two sides to this.

Even if you were right that words have no meanings in the absence of gods, and that words do have meanings, and that therefore gods exist, that wouldn't even tend to prove that one of those gods is a tri-omni god who coexists with evil. So we could grant your obscurantist premises without undermining the PoE in the least.

Words exist because wavelengths of energy is a bit of information that was spoken into existence by our Creator's voice called the Word of God, His first created invisible machine. it takes vibrating energy wavelengths to give man the ability to speak words.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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8/20/2013 11:19:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/20/2013 1:37:30 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/20/2013 11:08:27 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:14:26 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
When debating the PoE, is it the BOP on the atheist or theist to show God had a reason to allow evil?

I would first ask the atheist to prove that objective evil exists. He can't prove its existence without first defining it objectively. An objective definition requires an objective source to tell us what evil is. That objective source can only be a source which has the authority to define good and evil, and since we disagree on what is good and evil, we can't be that objective source. That objective source can only be a deity. The atheist can't prove that objective evil exists, without proving that God also exists, so debate on the issue is unnecessary.

I disagree. We don't need to know WHAT evil is, just if it exists or not.

How can you know if it exists if you can't say what it is??
medic0506
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8/20/2013 11:29:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/18/2013 9:31:29 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:44:22 PM, Naysayer wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:23:57 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
Nice job troll.

I'm starting to wonder if borno is a bot, actually. Which would make him really funny in my opinion. The answers are nearly automatic.

I'm a saint who has the knowledge of God to know that atheists and Christians are liars who have no Truth in them to know their flesh is lying to them.

What god are you born of??
medic0506
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8/21/2013 12:10:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/20/2013 1:45:49 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 8/20/2013 11:08:27 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:14:26 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
When debating the PoE, is it the BOP on the atheist or theist to show God had a reason to allow evil?

I would first ask the atheist to prove that objective evil exists.

Some people believe all of these things:
1. God exists;
2. Evil exists;

The existence of objective evil proves the existence of God, so the debate is over after #2 is shown. The rest is just quibbling over our understanding.

3. God can do anything;
4. God knows everything;
5. God totally wants to prevent evil.

Are there really people who enter a debate knowing they will have to defend #5, as stated??

The PoE (problem of evil) points out that those people are wrong. Totally, completely, obviously, foolishly wrong.

You can't defend them by asking atheists to prove that evil exists. They (the theists who believe in the PoE god) are the ones saying evil exists. We (atheists) are the ones pointing out that IF a tri-omni god exists, THEN evil does not exist.

Objective evil can only exist if God exists so the problem lies with your understanding.

He can't prove its existence without first defining it objectively.

Our point is that it does not exist, not if there is a tri-omni god.

Maybe that's the problem. By confining the argument to tri-omni, an important concept is left out, righteous judgment.

I can see how you think the argument is bulletproof when framed that way, but it really isn't arguing against a factual representation of the nature of God.

An objective definition requires an objective source to tell us what evil is.

Are you trying to sell the notion that words have "real" definitions, and that those definitions are unknown to the people who use the words? If you were correct, it would follow that you don't know what you are talking about.

That objective source can only be a source which has the authority to define good and evil, and since we disagree on what is good and evil, we can't be that objective source.

"Evil" means whatever people are talking about when they use the word.

If you're not arguing against the Biblical definition of evil, and you're leaving out important aspects of God's nature, that affects the Omni characteristics, then how can you say that you're really mounting an effective argument against God's existence?? It seems to me that you're just characterizing evil in a way that you can deal with it, so long as you can cherrypick which aspects of His nature that you want to argue against. Seems to me that you're just arguing against a strawman, rather than actual Christian teachings.

With those terms, yes, you have a bulletproof argument. Any Christian who agrees to debate on those terms is basically conceding the entire debate.

Fortunately for proponents of the PoE, it doesn't matter what usage you prefer. The PoE is bulletproof regardless of how evil is defined.

Let's have an example:
Suppose there is a god (or a haddoc, it matters not) who hates blueberry pie. He is totally, infinitely, unconflictedly opposed to the existence of blueberry pie. If that god exists, and if he is omnipotent and omniscient, then it follows that blueberry pie does not exist.

Since blueberry pie does exist, we know that this particular god does not exist.

See, bulletproof.

Try is with evil being sea turtles or Laffy Taffy. It works every time, regardless of how you define evil.

Therefore, we don't need to know what you mean by the word "evil." We know that the PoE works for every definition of evil. Anyone who believes that a tri-omni god coexists with evil is patently wrong.


That objective source can only be a deity.

Theists like to claim that, but (a) they never defend the claim, and (b) it wouldn't help them with the PoE even if it were true.


The atheist can't prove that objective evil exists, without proving that God also exists, so debate on the issue is unnecessary.

The debate is unnecessary because the PoE is patently correct. There aren't two sides to this.

Even if you were right that words have no meanings in the absence of gods, and that words do have meanings, and that therefore gods exist, that wouldn't even tend to prove that one of those gods is a tri-omni god who coexists with evil. So we could grant your obscurantist premises without undermining the PoE in the least.