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Against Free Will

Illegalcombatant
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8/18/2013 10:08:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hey do me a favor, it's a small favor, I would like you to choose a number, any number. I am right now going to "choose" a number.......ummmmmm 17

Cool. Now I asked myself and feel free to ask yourself, why did I choose 17 ? After much reflection, I have no idea what so ever. It just kinda popped in there.

I see no evidence of "free will" here, and if free will exists, it has to be here. By choosing a number I am barely restricted compared to say imaking a decision to fly to the moon. Flying to the moon has all sorts of restrictions and obstacles. But when choosing a number it doesn't apply, I am as free and so are you as you are ever going to be when choosing a number.

Here is what I see happening, something happens, and then in hindsight we say that is the "choice" we made, but merely looking at a past event and saying a choice was made doesn't actually prove a choice was made. In other words we use words like "choice" which assumes that free will exists in the first place when questioning whether free will exists.

Take away the assumption that free will exists when discussing free will, can you prove it is there ?

So remember that number that popped into your head, did you "choose" that number to pop into your head, or did you just after the event tell your self that was the choice you made ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Dogknox
Posts: 5,072
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8/18/2013 10:24:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/18/2013 10:08:10 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
Hey do me a favor, it's a small favor, I would like you to choose a number, any number. I am right now going to "choose" a number.......ummmmmm 17

Cool. Now I asked myself and feel free to ask yourself, why did I choose 17 ? After much reflection, I have no idea what so ever. It just kinda popped in there.

I see no evidence of "free will" here, and if free will exists, it has to be here. By choosing a number I am barely restricted compared to say imaking a decision to fly to the moon. Flying to the moon has all sorts of restrictions and obstacles. But when choosing a number it doesn't apply, I am as free and so are you as you are ever going to be when choosing a number.

Here is what I see happening, something happens, and then in hindsight we say that is the "choice" we made, but merely looking at a past event and saying a choice was made doesn't actually prove a choice was made. In other words we use words like "choice" which assumes that free will exists in the first place when questioning whether free will exists.

Take away the assumption that free will exists when discussing free will, can you prove it is there ?

So remember that number that popped into your head, did you "choose" that number to pop into your head, or did you just after the event tell your self that was the choice you made ?
Illegalcombatant you are a whack-oh!!
Free Will is, the freedom to love or not to love!!!

Nothing about the freedom to chose numbers!

God made man in his image... "God is LOVE!"
1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

To "LOVE" you must have the freedom to love or your love would never be true love!!

No one can force you to do acts of love, not even God.. If he forced you then your love would not be true love!!!
Luke 10:25
On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27 He answered, ""Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind"; and, "Love your neighbor as yourself.""
28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

Illegalcombatant did Jesus lie?? Did the man answer correctly? (verse 28 above)
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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8/18/2013 10:33:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
It's sad Dog Knox. It's sad that you either can't or refuse to allow yourself to consider the concepts/idea/arguments put forth, you side step all that then just sprout religious dogma as some sort of useful reply and you tell yourself you have done something good........and that just makes me want to cry.

But then again, when the only tool you have is a hammer everything else looks like a nail.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Dogknox
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8/18/2013 10:46:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/18/2013 10:33:36 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
It's sad Dog Knox. It's sad that you either can't or refuse to allow yourself to consider the concepts/idea/arguments put forth, you side step all that then just sprout religious dogma as some sort of useful reply and you tell yourself you have done something good........and that just makes me want to cry.

But then again, when the only tool you have is a hammer everything else looks like a nail.

The point is????
Facts do not lie; God IS LOVE, man was made in the image of God!!!

Keep on asking your thoughtless "wacky questions" it does not bother me one bit!!
Free Will is not freedom to pick numbers!

Dogknox
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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8/18/2013 10:58:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/18/2013 10:46:41 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 8/18/2013 10:33:36 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
It's sad Dog Knox. It's sad that you either can't or refuse to allow yourself to consider the concepts/idea/arguments put forth, you side step all that then just sprout religious dogma as some sort of useful reply and you tell yourself you have done something good........and that just makes me want to cry.

But then again, when the only tool you have is a hammer everything else looks like a nail.

The point is????
Facts do not lie; God IS LOVE, man was made in the image of God!!!

Keep on asking your thoughtless "wacky questions" it does not bother me one bit!!
Free Will is not freedom to pick numbers!

Dogknox

Wow, you just asserted your own religious beliefs, reassured your self of your own previous convictions and totally disregarded anything that might challenge that as "thoughtless" questions.

If you have seen one fundy, you have seen them all.

So about that hammer......
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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8/18/2013 11:07:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Facts do not lie; God IS LOVE, man was made in the image of God!!!

And your evidence is?
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
bulproof
Posts: 25,250
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8/18/2013 11:15:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/18/2013 11:07:51 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
Facts do not lie; God IS LOVE, man was made in the image of God!!!


And your evidence is?
The first born of Egypt................tada.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bulproof
Posts: 25,250
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8/18/2013 11:18:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/18/2013 10:24:22 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 8/18/2013 10:08:10 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
Hey do me a favor, it's a small favor, I would like you to choose a number, any number. I am right now going to "choose" a number.......ummmmmm 17

Cool. Now I asked myself and feel free to ask yourself, why did I choose 17 ? After much reflection, I have no idea what so ever. It just kinda popped in there.

I see no evidence of "free will" here, and if free will exists, it has to be here. By choosing a number I am barely restricted compared to say imaking a decision to fly to the moon. Flying to the moon has all sorts of restrictions and obstacles. But when choosing a number it doesn't apply, I am as free and so are you as you are ever going to be when choosing a number.

Here is what I see happening, something happens, and then in hindsight we say that is the "choice" we made, but merely looking at a past event and saying a choice was made doesn't actually prove a choice was made. In other words we use words like "choice" which assumes that free will exists in the first place when questioning whether free will exists.

Take away the assumption that free will exists when discussing free will, can you prove it is there ?

So remember that number that popped into your head, did you "choose" that number to pop into your head, or did you just after the event tell your self that was the choice you made ?
Illegalcombatant you are a whack-oh!!
Free Will is, the freedom to love or not to love!!!

Nothing about the freedom to chose numbers!

God made man in his image... "God is LOVE!"
1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

To "LOVE" you must have the freedom to love or your love would never be true love!!

No one can force you to do acts of love, not even God.. If he forced you then your love would not be true love!!!
Luke 10:25
On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27 He answered, ""Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind"; and, "Love your neighbor as yourself.""
28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

Illegalcombatant did Jesus lie?? Did the man answer correctly? (verse 28 above)
I don't think you have grasped what illegal is saying, doggo.
He talks about FREE WILL
And you respond with INDOCTRINATED DOGMA.
Ahh well.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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8/18/2013 11:20:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/18/2013 10:08:10 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
Hey do me a favor, it's a small favor, I would like you to choose a number, any number. I am right now going to "choose" a number.......ummmmmm 17

Cool. Now I asked myself and feel free to ask yourself, why did I choose 17 ? After much reflection, I have no idea what so ever. It just kinda popped in there.

I see no evidence of "free will" here, and if free will exists, it has to be here. By choosing a number I am barely restricted compared to say imaking a decision to fly to the moon. Flying to the moon has all sorts of restrictions and obstacles. But when choosing a number it doesn't apply, I am as free and so are you as you are ever going to be when choosing a number.

Here is what I see happening, something happens, and then in hindsight we say that is the "choice" we made, but merely looking at a past event and saying a choice was made doesn't actually prove a choice was made. In other words we use words like "choice" which assumes that free will exists in the first place when questioning whether free will exists.

Take away the assumption that free will exists when discussing free will, can you prove it is there ?

So remember that number that popped into your head, did you "choose" that number to pop into your head, or did you just after the event tell your self that was the choice you made ?

I think you may be confusing things a bit, here.

You chose 17....but why? Because it was the first thing that popped into your head? That it was the first thing that popped into your head was NOT a free-wiil choice. That you chose it based on it being that WAS. Arbitrary criteria, for sure, but your choice of criteria. You could have just as easily had 17 pop into your head first, but CHOSEN 27 instead.
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Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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8/18/2013 11:51:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/18/2013 11:20:33 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/18/2013 10:08:10 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
Hey do me a favor, it's a small favor, I would like you to choose a number, any number. I am right now going to "choose" a number.......ummmmmm 17

Cool. Now I asked myself and feel free to ask yourself, why did I choose 17 ? After much reflection, I have no idea what so ever. It just kinda popped in there.

I see no evidence of "free will" here, and if free will exists, it has to be here. By choosing a number I am barely restricted compared to say imaking a decision to fly to the moon. Flying to the moon has all sorts of restrictions and obstacles. But when choosing a number it doesn't apply, I am as free and so are you as you are ever going to be when choosing a number.

Here is what I see happening, something happens, and then in hindsight we say that is the "choice" we made, but merely looking at a past event and saying a choice was made doesn't actually prove a choice was made. In other words we use words like "choice" which assumes that free will exists in the first place when questioning whether free will exists.

Take away the assumption that free will exists when discussing free will, can you prove it is there ?

So remember that number that popped into your head, did you "choose" that number to pop into your head, or did you just after the event tell your self that was the choice you made ?

I think you may be confusing things a bit, here.

You chose 17....but why? Because it was the first thing that popped into your head? That it was the first thing that popped into your head was NOT a free-wiil choice. That you chose it based on it being that WAS. Arbitrary criteria, for sure, but your choice of criteria. You could have just as easily had 17 pop into your head first, but CHOSEN 27 instead.

Nah that doesn't work. Your making it sound like 17 popped into my head but I could of dis-regarded that and chosen 27. No it doesn't work.

Your just saying, oh you chose that but you could of chosen this. That goes to my point about referring to a past event and then loading up on the words of "choice"

How about you actually do the exercise ? I will do it again.

I will now "choose" a number................81

That was the first number that came to mind, but then after thnking about not taking the first number that came to mind I waited for another..............91.

So I went 81, then 91..................why ?

Same problem, have no idea. And no I did not choose 81, then choose 91. And sure we can play this game all day long, why not think of a third number, forth etc etc

Am I choosing the numbers ? No.

But you seem to acknowledge that but argue something like I choose which number to take, the first that came to mind or 2nd, or 3rd etc etc.

Firstly, I see no more choice which number I took in the sequence.

So once again after doing the exercise again I see the following.......

1) Sh*t happens
2) We then tell ourselves or even others that was the CHOICE they made

All I can do is ask you to actually do the exercise......

1) "Choose" a number, any number
2) Why did you "choose" that number ?
3) Did you see any evidence of "choice" being made WHILE deciding on the number (not looking back in the past and saying, yeah I choose that.)
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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8/19/2013 12:13:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/18/2013 11:51:08 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 8/18/2013 11:20:33 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/18/2013 10:08:10 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
Hey do me a favor, it's a small favor, I would like you to choose a number, any number. I am right now going to "choose" a number.......ummmmmm 17

Cool. Now I asked myself and feel free to ask yourself, why did I choose 17 ? After much reflection, I have no idea what so ever. It just kinda popped in there.

I see no evidence of "free will" here, and if free will exists, it has to be here. By choosing a number I am barely restricted compared to say imaking a decision to fly to the moon. Flying to the moon has all sorts of restrictions and obstacles. But when choosing a number it doesn't apply, I am as free and so are you as you are ever going to be when choosing a number.

Here is what I see happening, something happens, and then in hindsight we say that is the "choice" we made, but merely looking at a past event and saying a choice was made doesn't actually prove a choice was made. In other words we use words like "choice" which assumes that free will exists in the first place when questioning whether free will exists.

Take away the assumption that free will exists when discussing free will, can you prove it is there ?

So remember that number that popped into your head, did you "choose" that number to pop into your head, or did you just after the event tell your self that was the choice you made ?

I think you may be confusing things a bit, here.

You chose 17....but why? Because it was the first thing that popped into your head? That it was the first thing that popped into your head was NOT a free-wiil choice. That you chose it based on it being that WAS. Arbitrary criteria, for sure, but your choice of criteria. You could have just as easily had 17 pop into your head first, but CHOSEN 27 instead.

Nah that doesn't work. Your making it sound like 17 popped into my head but I could of dis-regarded that and chosen 27. No it doesn't work.

Your just saying, oh you chose that but you could of chosen this. That goes to my point about referring to a past event and then loading up on the words of "choice"

How about you actually do the exercise ? I will do it again.

I will now "choose" a number................81

That was the first number that came to mind, but then after thnking about not taking the first number that came to mind I waited for another..............91.

So I went 81, then 91..................why ?

Same problem, have no idea. And no I did not choose 81, then choose 91. And sure we can play this game all day long, why not think of a third number, forth etc etc

Am I choosing the numbers ? No.

But you seem to acknowledge that but argue something like I choose which number to take, the first that came to mind or 2nd, or 3rd etc etc.

Firstly, I see no more choice which number I took in the sequence.

So once again after doing the exercise again I see the following.......

1) Sh*t happens
2) We then tell ourselves or even others that was the CHOICE they made

All I can do is ask you to actually do the exercise......

1) "Choose" a number, any number
2) Why did you "choose" that number ?
3) Did you see any evidence of "choice" being made WHILE deciding on the number (not looking back in the past and saying, yeah I choose that.)

I chose 6. I chose 6 because it's my favorite number. I always choose six unless I'm making a specific point not to.

Again, I agree that when doing the "what number pops into my head" part, that is not a choice. Having the number pop into your head is essentially arbitrary (though not really random...people are terrible at trying for random numbers).

You could ask me WHY 6 is my favorite number: I happen to like it. That there are elements of my personality which, when combined, make it so that I prefer 6 is not really a "choice". But that I run with that preference IS a choice.

Similarly, you have 81...choose not to do that one, wait for another, get 91.

91, itself, wasn't the choice. The choice lay in rejecting 81, and accepting the NEXT arbitrary number.

Why did you choose to stop at 1, or at 10 variations of "not this, I'll wait for another number" is a question only YOU can answer. But even if it was arbitrary, it was still your choice to go with that arbitrary solution.

It's akin to rolling a die, saying you'll choose the first number that comes up, and arguing that, since you didn't choose that number, it wasn't a choice...the choice isn't in the method of producing the number.
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Beginner
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8/19/2013 12:26:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/18/2013 10:08:10 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
Hey do me a favor, it's a small favor, I would like you to choose a number, any number. I am right now going to "choose" a number.......ummmmmm 17

Cool. Now I asked myself and feel free to ask yourself, why did I choose 17 ? After much reflection, I have no idea what so ever. It just kinda popped in there.

I see no evidence of "free will" here, and if free will exists, it has to be here. By choosing a number I am barely restricted compared to say imaking a decision to fly to the moon. Flying to the moon has all sorts of restrictions and obstacles. But when choosing a number it doesn't apply, I am as free and so are you as you are ever going to be when choosing a number.

Here is what I see happening, something happens, and then in hindsight we say that is the "choice" we made, but merely looking at a past event and saying a choice was made doesn't actually prove a choice was made. In other words we use words like "choice" which assumes that free will exists in the first place when questioning whether free will exists.

Take away the assumption that free will exists when discussing free will, can you prove it is there ?

So remember that number that popped into your head, did you "choose" that number to pop into your head, or did you just after the event tell your self that was the choice you made ?

You've given yourself this exercise: to chose a number. Choosing a number is a choice by definition. Let us look at it this way: You've told yourself to choose a number. Your choices are now limited to numbers and numbers only. Why didn't any of an infinite variety of other things pop into your head? Why did the letter 'a' not pop into your head? Your choice of numbers was randomized, but the fact that your choice has been limited to numbers remains. It was your free will that prevented a plethora of other potential thoughts from popping up within this exercise. It was your free will that made a number appear in your head. You chose to limit your choice to the numbers category.
This example fails to negate the existence of free will.
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Beginner
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8/19/2013 12:28:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/19/2013 12:26:09 AM, Beginner wrote:
At 8/18/2013 10:08:10 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
Hey do me a favor, it's a small favor, I would like you to choose a number, any number. I am right now going to "choose" a number.......ummmmmm 17

Cool. Now I asked myself and feel free to ask yourself, why did I choose 17 ? After much reflection, I have no idea what so ever. It just kinda popped in there.

I see no evidence of "free will" here, and if free will exists, it has to be here. By choosing a number I am barely restricted compared to say imaking a decision to fly to the moon. Flying to the moon has all sorts of restrictions and obstacles. But when choosing a number it doesn't apply, I am as free and so are you as you are ever going to be when choosing a number.

Here is what I see happening, something happens, and then in hindsight we say that is the "choice" we made, but merely looking at a past event and saying a choice was made doesn't actually prove a choice was made. In other words we use words like "choice" which assumes that free will exists in the first place when questioning whether free will exists.

Take away the assumption that free will exists when discussing free will, can you prove it is there ?

So remember that number that popped into your head, did you "choose" that number to pop into your head, or did you just after the event tell your self that was the choice you made ?

You've given yourself this exercise: to chose a number. Choosing a number is a choice by definition a choice. Let us look at it this way: You've told yourself to choose a number. Your choices are now limited to numbers and numbers only. Why didn't any of an infinite variety of other things pop into your head? Why did the letter 'a' not pop into your head? Your choice of numbers was randomized, but the fact that your choice has been limited to numbers remains. It was your free will that prevented a plethora of other potential thoughts from popping up within this exercise. It was your free will that made a number appear in your head. You chose to limit your choice to the numbers category.
This example fails to negate the existence of free will.

Fixed.. incomplete sentence.
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8/19/2013 12:28:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/19/2013 12:28:24 AM, Beginner wrote:
At 8/19/2013 12:26:09 AM, Beginner wrote:
At 8/18/2013 10:08:10 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
Hey do me a favor, it's a small favor, I would like you to choose a number, any number. I am right now going to "choose" a number.......ummmmmm 17

Cool. Now I asked myself and feel free to ask yourself, why did I choose 17 ? After much reflection, I have no idea what so ever. It just kinda popped in there.

I see no evidence of "free will" here, and if free will exists, it has to be here. By choosing a number I am barely restricted compared to say imaking a decision to fly to the moon. Flying to the moon has all sorts of restrictions and obstacles. But when choosing a number it doesn't apply, I am as free and so are you as you are ever going to be when choosing a number.

Here is what I see happening, something happens, and then in hindsight we say that is the "choice" we made, but merely looking at a past event and saying a choice was made doesn't actually prove a choice was made. In other words we use words like "choice" which assumes that free will exists in the first place when questioning whether free will exists.

Take away the assumption that free will exists when discussing free will, can you prove it is there ?

So remember that number that popped into your head, did you "choose" that number to pop into your head, or did you just after the event tell your self that was the choice you made ?

You've given yourself this exercise: to chose a number. Choosing a number is a choice by definition a choice. Let us look at it this way: You've told yourself to choose a number. Your choices are now limited to numbers and numbers only. Why didn't any of an infinite variety of other things pop into your head? Why did the letter 'a' not pop into your head? Your choice of numbers was randomized, but the fact that your choice has been limited to numbers remains. It was your free will that prevented a plethora of other potential thoughts from popping up within this exercise. It was your free will that made a number appear in your head. You chose to limit your choice to the numbers category.
This example fails to negate the existence of free will.

NVM THAT WAS NO FIX AT ALL.
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Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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8/19/2013 12:35:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/19/2013 12:13:39 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/18/2013 11:51:08 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 8/18/2013 11:20:33 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/18/2013 10:08:10 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
Hey do me a favor, it's a small favor, I would like you to choose a number, any number. I am right now going to "choose" a number.......ummmmmm 17

Cool. Now I asked myself and feel free to ask yourself, why did I choose 17 ? After much reflection, I have no idea what so ever. It just kinda popped in there.

I see no evidence of "free will" here, and if free will exists, it has to be here. By choosing a number I am barely restricted compared to say imaking a decision to fly to the moon. Flying to the moon has all sorts of restrictions and obstacles. But when choosing a number it doesn't apply, I am as free and so are you as you are ever going to be when choosing a number.

Here is what I see happening, something happens, and then in hindsight we say that is the "choice" we made, but merely looking at a past event and saying a choice was made doesn't actually prove a choice was made. In other words we use words like "choice" which assumes that free will exists in the first place when questioning whether free will exists.

Take away the assumption that free will exists when discussing free will, can you prove it is there ?

So remember that number that popped into your head, did you "choose" that number to pop into your head, or did you just after the event tell your self that was the choice you made ?

I think you may be confusing things a bit, here.

You chose 17....but why? Because it was the first thing that popped into your head? That it was the first thing that popped into your head was NOT a free-wiil choice. That you chose it based on it being that WAS. Arbitrary criteria, for sure, but your choice of criteria. You could have just as easily had 17 pop into your head first, but CHOSEN 27 instead.

Nah that doesn't work. Your making it sound like 17 popped into my head but I could of dis-regarded that and chosen 27. No it doesn't work.

Your just saying, oh you chose that but you could of chosen this. That goes to my point about referring to a past event and then loading up on the words of "choice"

How about you actually do the exercise ? I will do it again.

I will now "choose" a number................81

That was the first number that came to mind, but then after thnking about not taking the first number that came to mind I waited for another..............91.

So I went 81, then 91..................why ?

Same problem, have no idea. And no I did not choose 81, then choose 91. And sure we can play this game all day long, why not think of a third number, forth etc etc

Am I choosing the numbers ? No.

But you seem to acknowledge that but argue something like I choose which number to take, the first that came to mind or 2nd, or 3rd etc etc.

Firstly, I see no more choice which number I took in the sequence.

So once again after doing the exercise again I see the following.......

1) Sh*t happens
2) We then tell ourselves or even others that was the CHOICE they made

All I can do is ask you to actually do the exercise......

1) "Choose" a number, any number
2) Why did you "choose" that number ?
3) Did you see any evidence of "choice" being made WHILE deciding on the number (not looking back in the past and saying, yeah I choose that.)

I chose 6. I chose 6 because it's my favorite number. I always choose six unless I'm making a specific point not to.

Again, I agree that when doing the "what number pops into my head" part, that is not a choice. Having the number pop into your head is essentially arbitrary (though not really random...people are terrible at trying for random numbers).

You could ask me WHY 6 is my favorite number: I happen to like it. That there are elements of my personality which, when combined, make it so that I prefer 6 is not really a "choice". But that I run with that preference IS a choice.


Similarly, you have 81...choose not to do that one, wait for another, get 91.

91, itself, wasn't the choice. The choice lay in rejecting 81, and accepting the NEXT arbitrary number.

Why did you choose to stop at 1, or at 10 variations of "not this, I'll wait for another number" is a question only YOU can answer. But even if it was arbitrary, it was still your choice to go with that arbitrary solution.

Once again your taking past events and saying you choose it, you choose it. Just saying you or I choose something doesn't provide any grounds to believe it was chosen. I will say it again, a HUGE PROBLEM with dealing with free will is that the language we use already presupposes it's existence.

But your choose this, you choose that. Although you didn't choose that you did choose this.


It's akin to rolling a die, saying you'll choose the first number that comes up, and arguing that, since you didn't choose that number, it wasn't a choice...the choice isn't in the method of producing the number.

It goes more in depth than that. Even if you "choose" to pick the first number on the roll or the first number that comes to mind you can ask but why pick the first ? why not 2nd or 3rd or take the 1st and 2nd numbers and add them together..........

And more importantly comes the follow up question, even if the number you selected (see notice once again the language presupposes choice ?) was because it was the first did you CHOOSE for the number to be selected to be the first ? or is the first number being selected just as absent of choice as the roll of the dice or the number coming to mind ?

Once again just looking back at a past event and saying choice choice and more choice doesn't prove a choice was made.

1) Sh*t happens
2) We tell ourselves after the fact, that we "choose" it to be that way
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Beginner
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8/19/2013 12:49:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/18/2013 10:33:36 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
It's sad Dog Knox. It's sad that you either can't or refuse to allow yourself to consider the concepts/idea/arguments put forth, you side step all that then just sprout religious dogma as some sort of useful reply and you tell yourself you have done something good........and that just makes me want to cry.

But then again, when the only tool you have is a hammer everything else looks like a nail.

What did you expect? You do realize that you've posted this in the religions section.. a response such as that given by DogKnox is inevitable.
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bladerunner060
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8/19/2013 12:52:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Why did you choose to stop at 1, or at 10 variations of "not this, I'll wait for another number" is a question only YOU can answer. But even if it was arbitrary, it was still your choice to go with that arbitrary solution.

Once again your taking past events and saying you choose it, you choose it. Just saying you or I choose something doesn't provide any grounds to believe it was chosen. I will say it again, a HUGE PROBLEM with dealing with free will is that the language we use already presupposes it's existence.

I disagree. You really seem to be conflating things here.

The process is a choice. If the process is arbitrary, the result is a result of choosing that process, which is a function of your personality.

But your choose this, you choose that. Although you didn't choose that you did choose this.


It's akin to rolling a die, saying you'll choose the first number that comes up, and arguing that, since you didn't choose that number, it wasn't a choice...the choice isn't in the method of producing the number.

It goes more in depth than that. Even if you "choose" to pick the first number on the roll or the first number that comes to mind you can ask but why pick the first ? why not 2nd or 3rd or take the 1st and 2nd numbers and add them together.........

You could do any of those things. You didn't because its not your preference to, and you chose to follow your preference.

And more importantly comes the follow up question, even if the number you selected (see notice once again the language presupposes choice ?) was because it was the first did you CHOOSE for the number to be selected to be the first ? or is the first number being selected just as absent of choice as the roll of the dice or the number coming to mind ?

I'm not sure I understand this. My point is that the process you used to arrive at the number seemed arbitrary.


Once again just looking back at a past event and saying choice choice and more choice doesn't prove a choice was made.

1) Sh*t happens
2) We tell ourselves after the fact, that we "choose" it to be that way

I disagree. I think that we choose things in the moments based on our own reasoning and preference. Fundamentally, choice is always problematic....if its always based on reasoning, the is it choice or determinism? If there are is no reasoning, is it simply arbitrary? I agree it's problematic, certainly. But I think your first problem shouldn't be with language's presupposition. First you need to decide on a functional definition of what a free will choice IS, before you can determine if the criteria is met.
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Illegalcombatant
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8/19/2013 12:54:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/19/2013 12:49:46 AM, Beginner wrote:
At 8/18/2013 10:33:36 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
It's sad Dog Knox. It's sad that you either can't or refuse to allow yourself to consider the concepts/idea/arguments put forth, you side step all that then just sprout religious dogma as some sort of useful reply and you tell yourself you have done something good........and that just makes me want to cry.

But then again, when the only tool you have is a hammer everything else looks like a nail.

What did you expect? You do realize that you've posted this in the religions section.. a response such as that given by DogKnox is inevitable.

Yes, yes it was.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Dogknox
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8/19/2013 2:41:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/18/2013 11:07:51 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
Facts do not lie; God IS LOVE, man was made in the image of God!!!


And your evidence is?
Lordgrae the Scriptures speak for me...

Genesis 1:25
New International Version (NIV)
God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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8/19/2013 8:03:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Lordgrae the Scriptures speak for me...
nonsense from the bible, blah, blah, blah

You cannot verify the bible, with quotes from the bible. That is like saying that a statement you wrote is true because in the statement it says that the statement is true.

You cannot use the bible to say that the bible is true. You have to use another source to prove your "god". The burden of proof is yours, you are making the claim. If you want, we can take this to a formal debate setting and not annoy the other people on this forum who probably don't want to hear us argue.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
Illegalcombatant
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8/19/2013 8:56:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/19/2013 8:48:29 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Can free-will exist if the future is fixed? If not, then not I don't believe in free-will.

I'd rather not go there. I'd rather focus on the thought experiment and see if we find any evidence of "choice/free will" or if we are just telling out selves that.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Illegalcombatant
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8/19/2013 8:58:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
So pick and number............any number.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
000ike
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8/19/2013 9:12:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I like the OP's thought experiment. People don't seem to really try to understand their own psychologies. Frankly, the falsity of freewill is very accessible with deep introspection.

I also don't like how some people's only reason for opposing metaphysical libertarianism is the trend of findings from neuroscientific studies. Freewill is a logical contradiction! Forget about searching for it somewhere in the anatomy of the human nervous system, the thing isn't even a logically consistent concept. How many people, libertarian and determinist alike, actually consider that?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Illegalcombatant
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8/19/2013 9:15:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/19/2013 9:12:11 PM, 000ike wrote:
I like the OP's thought experiment. People don't seem to really try to understand their own psychologies. Frankly, the falsity of freewill is very accessible with deep introspection.

I also don't like how some people's only reason for opposing metaphysical libertarianism is the trend of findings from neuroscientific studies. Freewill is a logical contradiction! Forget about searching for it somewhere in the anatomy of the human nervous system, the thing isn't even a logically consistent concept. How many people, libertarian and determinist alike, actually consider that?

The trouble is people don't actually do the experiment. You actually have to examine the best you can in the moment.

What ends up happening is that people make up the story after the fact. oh well I choose such and such,.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Magic8000
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8/20/2013 12:36:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/18/2013 10:24:22 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 8/18/2013 10:08:10 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
Hey do me a favor, it's a small favor, I would like you to choose a number, any number. I am right now going to "choose" a number.......ummmmmm 17

Cool. Now I asked myself and feel free to ask yourself, why did I choose 17 ? After much reflection, I have no idea what so ever. It just kinda popped in there.

I see no evidence of "free will" here, and if free will exists, it has to be here. By choosing a number I am barely restricted compared to say imaking a decision to fly to the moon. Flying to the moon has all sorts of restrictions and obstacles. But when choosing a number it doesn't apply, I am as free and so are you as you are ever going to be when choosing a number.

Here is what I see happening, something happens, and then in hindsight we say that is the "choice" we made, but merely looking at a past event and saying a choice was made doesn't actually prove a choice was made. In other words we use words like "choice" which assumes that free will exists in the first place when questioning whether free will exists.

Take away the assumption that free will exists when discussing free will, can you prove it is there ?

So remember that number that popped into your head, did you "choose" that number to pop into your head, or did you just after the event tell your self that was the choice you made ?
Illegalcombatant you are a whack-oh!!
Free Will is, the freedom to love or not to love!!!

Nothing about the freedom to chose numbers!

God made man in his image... "God is LOVE!"
1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

To "LOVE" you must have the freedom to love or your love would never be true love!!

No one can force you to do acts of love, not even God.. If he forced you then your love would not be true love!!!
Luke 10:25
On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27 He answered, ""Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind"; and, "Love your neighbor as yourself.""
28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

Illegalcombatant did Jesus lie?? Did the man answer correctly? (verse 28 above)

What caused you to love?
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
Magic8000
Posts: 975
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8/20/2013 12:41:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
OP"s thought experiment extends to thoughts themselves. All thoughts seem to come out of the void. It's really interesting that when you pay attention it seems thoughts come "to" your conscious mind, not "from" your conscious mind. If we could choose to think our thoughts, we would have to already thought of them.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
Dogknox
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8/20/2013 11:09:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/20/2013 12:41:57 AM, Magic8000 wrote:
OP"s thought experiment extends to thoughts themselves. All thoughts seem to come out of the void. It's really interesting that when you pay attention it seems thoughts come "to" your conscious mind, not "from" your conscious mind. If we could choose to think our thoughts, we would have to already thought of them.
Magic8000 good to meet you...
I reply; I have had other posts with Illegalcombatant not being the first encounter with him, I knew exactly how to reply to his question!!

What you think is an "unloving reply" is really the only way to talk to him!!
Dogknox
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8/20/2013 11:11:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/19/2013 8:48:29 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Can free-will exist if the future is fixed? If not, then not I don't believe in free-will.
Rational_Thinker9119 Free Will is the will in choosing to love or not to love!!!

God made man in his image.. "God is LOVE"! To "LOVE" man needs free will!