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What about the temptation of Christ?

leonardlewis4
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8/24/2013 12:36:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Continuing to address some of dj21's concerns and respond to some of the voters/comments from the following debate:

http://www.debate.org...

@dj21,

Addressing your question:
| dj21: Jesus goes into the wilderness according to Mark, "immediately". Both Luke and Matthew
| provide similar accounts. But not John. Jesus never goes into the wilderness according to John.
| One could say he simply skipped the story, except that he accounts for the time following the
| baptism with different stories in John 1:35-45. "The next day" (after his baptism)"

Your premise is completely incorrect. There is no direct account of Jesus' baptism in John. Rather, John picks up with John the Baptist's interrogation/testimony at some point soon AFTER Jesus' fasting/temptation in the wilderness. More on this later...

| dj21 (cont.): Jesus sees John again and picks up two of his disciples. Jesus talks to them, and then,
| "The next day Jesus decided to go to Galilee." The story is very much in a time and place.

Agreed... The problem is, you are not accurately discerning the time and place.

| dj21 (cont.): It doesn't appear to leave room for the wilderness temptation to just be left out.
| How do you account for this discrepancy between John and the other three gospels?

I don't "account" for it. There is no discrepancy. I think it is relatively easy to see if you haven't already decided (in error) that John must provide an account of the baptism and temptation.

According to Matthew:

Preaching of John the Baptist: Matthew 3:1-2, 5-6 (NASB)
[1] Now in those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying, [2] "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

[5] Then Jerusalem was going out to him, and all Judea and all the district around the Jordan; [6] and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, as they confessed their sins.

The Baptism of Jesus: Matthew 3:13 (NASB)
Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him.

The Temptation of Jesus: Matthew 4:1 (NASB)
Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

According to Mark:

Preaching of John the Baptist: Mark 1:4-5 (NASB)
[4] John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. [5] And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.

The Baptism of Jesus: Mark 1:9 (NASB)
In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.

The Temptation of Jesus: Mark 1:12-13* (NASB)
[12] Immediately the Spirit impelled Him to go out into the wilderness. [13] And He was in the wilderness forty days being tempted by Satan; "

According to Luke:
Preaching of John the Baptist: Luke 3:1-3 (NASB)
[1] Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, and Herod was tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip was tetrarch of the region of Ituraea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias was tetrarch of Abilene, [2] in the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John, the son of Zacharias, in the wilderness. [3] And he came into all the district around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

The Baptism of Jesus: Luke 3:21* (NASB)
Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus was also baptized, "

The Temptation of Jesus: Luke 4:1-2* (NASB)
[1] Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness [2] for forty days, being tempted by the devil. "

According to John:
The first distinction we should observe about John's account is that it emphasizes the deity of Jesus Christ and structures all of the narratives, thematically, around the Passovers, festivals and ceremonies during the three and a half years of Jesus' public ministry. The author's appeal to John the Baptist serves the same purpose--as a reliable testimony to the deity of Jesus Christ.

Testimony of John the Baptist: John 1:19, 24-26*, 28 (NASB)
[19] This is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent to him priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?"
[24] Now they had been sent from the Pharisees. [25] They asked him, and said to him, "Why then are you baptizing, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?" [26] John answered them"
[28] These things took place in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

Note: The important thing (for our discussion) is that the account of the testimony of John the Baptist occurred sometime AFTER the baptism of Jesus. John (the author) simply did not include the direct account of Jesus' baptism. However, the timing of this testimony is evident because John the Baptist refers back to occasions in the past when he testified [a] (below) to the preeminence of Jesus and the imminence of His public ministry (also recorded in Matthew, Mark and Luke)... And even more definitively (with respect to the timing of events), John the Baptist is then quoted [b] (below)--very obviously and specifically--in reference to the baptism of Jesus as an event that occurred in the past, relative to the account of this particular testimony.

Testimony of John the Baptist (cont.): John 1:29-34 (NASB)
[29] The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! [30] This is He on behalf of whom I said, [a] 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.' [31] I did not recognize Him, but so that He might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing in water." [32] John testified saying, [b] "I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. [33] I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.' [34] I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God."

Note: The Greek tense/mood of the verbs used by John the Baptist in vv. 32 and 34--"have seen" and "have testified" (both Perfect Tense)--represent actions that were completed in the past with continuing results; and the Indicative mood provides the undeniable distinction of definite past events.

Conclusion: To believe that this example constitutes error, one must impose their own arbitrary standards upon the Scripture--in this case, to require that John "must" provide an account of the baptism and temptation.

I keep saying it in different ways, but I guess you can't accept it... The Gospel authors (inspired by the Holy Spirit) purposefully intended to provide their accounts from a particular (often unique) perspective. John, especially so... Your personal requirement that all four Gospels should have some kind of robotic, word-for-word agreement is (I think) what leads you to make these obvious mistakes in assessing the veracity of Scripture.

There simply is no discrepancy here.

( cont. )
leonardlewis4
Posts: 93
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8/24/2013 12:38:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
(cont.)

Order of events:

1. John the Baptist begins preaching and baptizing

2. Pharisees and Sadducees and people from Jerusalem, all Judea and all the district around the Jordan come to John to confess their sins and to be baptized for repentance

3. John baptized Jesus

4. Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness where he fasted for forty days and then was tempted by the devil

5. John the Baptist is interrogated by the priests and Levites (nearing the time when he would be taken into custody)

6. Jesus again sees John the Baptist who testifies that Jesus is the Son of God, recalling the events of the baptism

7. Jesus calls His first disciples...

Note: Andrew and John were first disciples of John the Baptist, so John was a primary witness to all of these events
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/24/2013 1:29:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/24/2013 12:36:06 PM, leonardlewis4 wrote:
Continuing to address some of dj21's concerns and respond to some of the voters/comments from the following debate:

http://www.debate.org...

@dj21,

Addressing your question:
| dj21: Jesus goes into the wilderness according to Mark, "immediately". Both Luke and Matthew
| provide similar accounts. But not John. Jesus never goes into the wilderness according to John.
| One could say he simply skipped the story, except that he accounts for the time following the
| baptism with different stories in John 1:35-45. "The next day" (after his baptism)"

I keep saying it in different ways, but I guess you can't accept it... The Gospel authors (inspired by the Holy Spirit) purposefully intended to provide their accounts from a particular (often unique) perspective. John, especially so... Your personal requirement that all four Gospels should have some kind of robotic, word-for-word agreement is (I think) what leads you to make these obvious mistakes in assessing the veracity of Scripture.

Th

This temptation of Christ is what all us saints have to go through in order to know the difference between the thoughts that come from this decieved world within our memory and the thoughts of God that He has us write and speak from as He gives us the words in our minds from our own vocabulary.

Once we're born of God ( born again experience ) and have the invisible knowledge of God revealed to us, God has us start writing to help us understand who we are. Then He puts us in a very strong delusion and takes away this knowledge for a period of time to make us understand the difference between our old nature that we grew up with and the new thoughts that are in our mind that come from Christ.

Christ is not something that is stored in our memories to draw from. Every word we get from our Father within our mind has to be written or spoken without any concern that we could be killed for testifying to it. This is why He gives us the knowledge that our flesh will be killed and how it will be done. This is to trust every word that He gives us to write or speak with. This takes a few months before we learn to trust every word because our flesh is slowly dying to the old fears that it used to give us.

Eventually, God takes us out of that strong delusion once we experienced the old nature ( the satan delusion ) for awhile. From that point on, we have no fear of speaking the words God puts in our mind from our own vocabulary in which we learned from childhood. These words He puts in our mind to write or speak with are converted messages from the invisible Christ, which is our created existence.

Christ contains information with NO delusional thoughts that make man fear and confused like it does with the information of God's planned delusion called "Lucifer and the beast".
dj21
Posts: 38
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8/24/2013 2:32:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/24/2013 12:36:06 PM, leonardlewis4 wrote:


I'm sorry leonard, I find your take on John profoundly lacking in rigor at best and disingenuous at worst.

I don't see how your defense is in any way relevant to the text. All of the gospel accounts are related in the past tense. Naturally it is a story being recalled. However, unless your contention is that "the next day" does not mean what it is taken to mean throughout the English language, then I don't see how your defense is relevant.

The text uses "The next day" three times in succession: the baptism day, the day after the baptism, and the day after that (by which point, Jesus was in the wilderness according to the Synoptics). I am a strong believer in the value of personal interpretation (albeit discounting the prospect of actual inerrancy), but to view this as anything but a story relating three consecutive days stretches the limits of (my) credulity. To say that John is not telling the story of three consecutive days basically asserts that nothing in the Bible can be taken at face value, rendering the entire document worthless. Which I don't think it is. Once again, general reliability and inerrancy are at odds, and what you are suggesting sacrifices general reliability in the hopes of saving inerrancy. I think it is a lost cause.

Here is the full text from John:

29"The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold,"the Lamb of God who"takes away the sin of the world!"30"This is He on behalf of whom I said, "After me comes a Man who"has a higher rank than I,"for He existed before me.""31"I did not recognize"Him, but so that He might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing"in water."32"John"testified saying, "I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him."33"I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize"in water said to me, "He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him,"this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.""34"I myself have seen, and have testified that this is"the Son of God." 35"Again"the next day John was standing"with two of his disciples,36"and he looked at Jesus as He walked, and said, "Behold,"the Lamb of God!""37"The two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus."38"And Jesus turned and saw them following, and said to them,""What do you seek?""They said to Him, "Rabbi (which translated means Teacher), where are You staying?""39"He said to them,""Come, and you will see.""So they came and saw where He was staying; and they stayed with Him that day, for it was about the"tenth hour.40"One of the two who heard John"speak"and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter"s brother."41"He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the"Messiah" (which translated means"Christ)."42"He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said,""You are Simon the son of"John; you shall be calledCephas""(which is translated"[ad]Peter).43"The next day He purposed to go into"Galilee, and He *found"Philip. And Jesus said to him,""Follow Me.""
dj21
Posts: 38
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8/24/2013 2:42:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/24/2013 12:38:18 PM, leonardlewis4 wrote:
(cont.)

Order of events:

This helps me at least better understand your perspective, thanks for posting that. Sorry for the outrage in my last post. I don't find this version credible, but do at least acknowledge that it's plausible. :) And it makes my outrage overstated.
leonardlewis4
Posts: 93
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8/24/2013 3:28:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/24/2013 2:32:39 PM, dj21 wrote:
At 8/24/2013 12:36:06 PM, leonardlewis4 wrote:


I'm sorry leonard, I find your take on John profoundly lacking in rigor at best and disingenuous at worst.

I don't see how your defense is in any way relevant to the text. All of the gospel accounts are related in the past tense. Naturally it is a story being recalled. However, unless your contention is that "the next day" does not mean what it is taken to mean throughout the English language, then I don't see how your defense is relevant.

The text uses "The next day" three times in succession: the baptism day, the day after the baptism, and the day after that (by which point, Jesus was in the wilderness according to the Synoptics). I am a strong believer in the value of personal interpretation (albeit discounting the prospect of actual inerrancy), but to view this as anything but a story relating three consecutive days stretches the limits of (my) credulity. To say that John is not telling the story of three consecutive days basically asserts that nothing in the Bible can be taken at face value, rendering the entire document worthless. Which I don't think it is. Once again, general reliability and inerrancy are at odds, and what you are suggesting sacrifices general reliability in the hopes of saving inerrancy. I think it is a lost cause.

Here is the full text from John:


29"The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold,"the Lamb of God who"takes away the sin of the world!"30"This is He on behalf of whom I said, "After me comes a Man who"has a higher rank than I,"for He existed before me.""31"I did not recognize"Him, but so that He might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing"in water."32"John"testified saying, "I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him."33"I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize"in water said to me, "He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him,"this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.""34"I myself have seen, and have testified that this is"the Son of God." 35"Again"the next day John was standing"with two of his disciples,36"and he looked at Jesus as He walked, and said, "Behold,"the Lamb of God!""37"The two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus."38"And Jesus turned and saw them following, and said to them,""What do you seek?""They said to Him, "Rabbi (which translated means Teacher), where are You staying?""39"He said to them,""Come, and you will see.""So they came and saw where He was staying; and they stayed with Him that day, for it was about the"tenth hour.40"One of the two who heard John"speak"and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter"s brother."41"He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the"Messiah" (which translated means"Christ)."42"He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said,""You are Simon the son of"John; you shall be calledCephas""(which is translated"[ad]Peter).43"The next day He purposed to go into"Galilee, and He *found"Philip. And Jesus said to him,""Follow Me.""

Yeah... Either you didn't read what took me a couple hours to compose, or you have completely misunderstood it. In any case, you have absolutely misrepresented my position here. Please read what I actually said and evaluate it on the merits, not on your false representation of it.

Does anyone else NOT understand that the "past-tense" point was in reference to the tense/mood of what John the Baptist was quoted as saying? Of course, the entire narrative implies past-tense (all historical narratives do)! I wasn't talking about the tense of the narrative, I was talking about the tense of the quote from John the Baptist when he said, "I have seen..." Yes, each day in the author's account was a day, I never said it wasn't... But ALL of those days occurred after Jesus' return from the wilderness! Otherwise, John the Baptist would not have said, "I have seen..." in reference to the baptism events, he would have said, "Behold!" as he did a few verses back in reference to Jesus arriving...
leonardlewis4
Posts: 93
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8/24/2013 3:41:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/24/2013 2:42:23 PM, dj21 wrote:
At 8/24/2013 12:38:18 PM, leonardlewis4 wrote:
(cont.)

Order of events:

This helps me at least better understand your perspective, thanks for posting that. Sorry for the outrage in my last post. I don't find this version credible, but do at least acknowledge that it's plausible. :) And it makes my outrage overstated.

Do you now understand what I'm saying? You can't find the direct account of Jesus' baptism in John (which your interpretation/argument requires). The only thing we have in that proximity is John the Baptist RECALLING what he himself said at the baptism event which occurred IN THE PAST relative to the day in question (the day after his interrogation).

Friendly emphasis intended... :)

I can see where you would expect (need) John to tell the same story, but John's Gospel is quite different than the others. The chronology of his Gospel begins (in earnest) AFTER Jesus' baptism and subsequent temptation--at the very beginning of his public ministry.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/25/2013 11:51:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/24/2013 3:41:43 PM, leonardlewis4 wrote:
At 8/24/2013 2:42:23 PM, dj21 wrote:
At 8/24/2013 12:38:18 PM, leonardlewis4 wrote:
(cont.)

Order of events:

This helps me at least better understand your perspective, thanks for posting that. Sorry for the outrage in my last post. I don't find this version credible, but do at least acknowledge that it's plausible. :) And it makes my outrage overstated.

Do you now understand what I'm saying? You can't find the direct account of Jesus' baptism in John (which your interpretation/argument requires). The only thing we have in that proximity is John the Baptist RECALLING what he himself said at the baptism event which occurred IN THE PAST relative to the day in question (the day after his interrogation).

Friendly emphasis intended... :)

I can see where you would expect (need) John to tell the same story, but John's Gospel is quite different than the others. The chronology of his Gospel begins (in earnest) AFTER Jesus' baptism and subsequent temptation--at the very beginning of his public ministry.

When a Christian reads the new testament that Rome produced after they killed all the true saints in the first three centuries, they are reading religious ideas that Rome added to their favorite books to deceive them all from the Truth that us saints spoke about.

We saints know that water baptism is a ritual that was started by religious Jews who couldn't find a way to hide their disobedience to the Laws of God ( His written commandments that He had Moses deliver to this world.)

The religious Jews started water baptism as a way to pretend they're cleansed from their sins. All the Jewish children were most likely baptized in this way.

When the first saint came into this world preaching the gospel ( voice of God), he had learned from our Creator, that water baptism had nothing to do with heavenly things. It is just another religious ritual that Rome added to their new testament, just like the communion and hell ideas.