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A question to the religious...

MysticEgg
Posts: 524
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8/26/2013 5:58:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Dear faithful,

As the title suggests, I have a question to all religious people. The question is:

"What will, if anything, convince you to renounce your faith?"

A simple question but with a difficult answer. I'm genuinely intrigued and I believe religion is a fascinating topic. I would appreciate it if I could get someone to explain what can. I know it's very personal, but the floor's open to any and all. (Although, if you're not religious, you might have a hard time answering the question :P )

Sincerely and with kindest regards,
An interested atheist.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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8/26/2013 6:56:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If I became convinced moral realism was false.
If Jesus' bones were found.
If I became convinced of metaphysical naturalism/physicalism.

Are just some ways I can think of.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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8/26/2013 8:52:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/26/2013 6:56:19 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
If I became convinced moral realism was false.
If Jesus' bones were found.
If I became convinced of metaphysical naturalism/physicalism.

Are just some ways I can think of.

What if Aliens came to Earth, and they are as much more intelligent than us as we are to chimps, and they were all Atheists when asked about God? lol
AeneasPhebe
Posts: 213
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8/26/2013 10:01:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/26/2013 5:58:13 PM, MysticEgg wrote:
Dear faithful,

As the title suggests, I have a question to all religious people. The question is:

"What will, if anything, convince you to renounce your faith?"

A simple question but with a difficult answer. I'm genuinely intrigued and I believe religion is a fascinating topic. I would appreciate it if I could get someone to explain what can. I know it's very personal, but the floor's open to any and all. (Although, if you're not religious, you might have a hard time answering the question :P )

Sincerely and with kindest regards,
An interested atheist.

One must show absolutely that God does not exist and that Jesus Christ was a fake.
the_croftmeister
Posts: 678
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8/26/2013 10:13:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/26/2013 10:01:33 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 8/26/2013 5:58:13 PM, MysticEgg wrote:
Dear faithful,

As the title suggests, I have a question to all religious people. The question is:

"What will, if anything, convince you to renounce your faith?"

A simple question but with a difficult answer. I'm genuinely intrigued and I believe religion is a fascinating topic. I would appreciate it if I could get someone to explain what can. I know it's very personal, but the floor's open to any and all. (Although, if you're not religious, you might have a hard time answering the question :P )

Sincerely and with kindest regards,
An interested atheist.

One must show absolutely that God does not exist and that Jesus Christ was a fake.
So basically nothing
AeneasPhebe
Posts: 213
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8/26/2013 10:17:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/26/2013 10:13:21 PM, the_croftmeister wrote:
At 8/26/2013 10:01:33 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 8/26/2013 5:58:13 PM, MysticEgg wrote:
Dear faithful,

As the title suggests, I have a question to all religious people. The question is:

"What will, if anything, convince you to renounce your faith?"

A simple question but with a difficult answer. I'm genuinely intrigued and I believe religion is a fascinating topic. I would appreciate it if I could get someone to explain what can. I know it's very personal, but the floor's open to any and all. (Although, if you're not religious, you might have a hard time answering the question :P )

Sincerely and with kindest regards,
An interested atheist.

One must show absolutely that God does not exist and that Jesus Christ was a fake.
So basically nothing

Without that, one would have nothing to convince someone who has felt influenced by God.
the_croftmeister
Posts: 678
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8/26/2013 10:20:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/26/2013 10:17:25 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 8/26/2013 10:13:21 PM, the_croftmeister wrote:
At 8/26/2013 10:01:33 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 8/26/2013 5:58:13 PM, MysticEgg wrote:
Dear faithful,

As the title suggests, I have a question to all religious people. The question is:

"What will, if anything, convince you to renounce your faith?"

A simple question but with a difficult answer. I'm genuinely intrigued and I believe religion is a fascinating topic. I would appreciate it if I could get someone to explain what can. I know it's very personal, but the floor's open to any and all. (Although, if you're not religious, you might have a hard time answering the question :P )

Sincerely and with kindest regards,
An interested atheist.

One must show absolutely that God does not exist and that Jesus Christ was a fake.
So basically nothing

Without that, one would have nothing to convince someone who has felt influenced by God.
Well there is always 'on the balance of probabilities'. Or even 'beyond reasonable doubt'. You require proof of the falsehood of something I haven't even seen convincing evidence of in the first place. If your position is that where there is no evidence people should be able to believe what they want then fair enough, I'll submit to that. But let's not kid ourselves into thinking there is any possibility that either of those things can be proven absolutely.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/26/2013 10:20:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/26/2013 6:56:19 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
If I became convinced moral realism was false.

This shouldn't be too hard. This should do it, one day.
If Jesus' bones were found.
If I became convinced of metaphysical naturalism/physicalism.

Are just some ways I can think of.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
the_croftmeister
Posts: 678
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8/26/2013 10:23:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/26/2013 10:20:15 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/26/2013 6:56:19 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
If I became convinced moral realism was false.

This shouldn't be too hard. This should do it, one day.
I'm not sure that there are good arguments against the realism of morality if you presuppose the existence of God. If you presuppose his non-existence then there are good arguments. If you presuppose neither then you have nothing to go on because the existence of God is a rational explanation for how morality could be real.

I think there are good arguments for why we should believe moral realism is false, but they are not reasons that actually concern its truth but rather the benefits of acting as if it is false.
AeneasPhebe
Posts: 213
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8/26/2013 10:23:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/26/2013 10:20:03 PM, the_croftmeister wrote:
At 8/26/2013 10:17:25 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 8/26/2013 10:13:21 PM, the_croftmeister wrote:
At 8/26/2013 10:01:33 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 8/26/2013 5:58:13 PM, MysticEgg wrote:
Dear faithful,

As the title suggests, I have a question to all religious people. The question is:

"What will, if anything, convince you to renounce your faith?"

A simple question but with a difficult answer. I'm genuinely intrigued and I believe religion is a fascinating topic. I would appreciate it if I could get someone to explain what can. I know it's very personal, but the floor's open to any and all. (Although, if you're not religious, you might have a hard time answering the question :P )

Sincerely and with kindest regards,
An interested atheist.

One must show absolutely that God does not exist and that Jesus Christ was a fake.
So basically nothing

Without that, one would have nothing to convince someone who has felt influenced by God.
Well there is always 'on the balance of probabilities'. Or even 'beyond reasonable doubt'. You require proof of the falsehood of something I haven't even seen convincing evidence of in the first place. If your position is that where there is no evidence people should be able to believe what they want then fair enough, I'll submit to that. But let's not kid ourselves into thinking there is any possibility that either of those things can be proven absolutely.

Oh, I know they can't. That is why a devout religious person that believes in God and/or Jesus Christ has all the reason to never stop believing.
the_croftmeister
Posts: 678
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8/26/2013 10:25:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/26/2013 10:23:21 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 8/26/2013 10:20:03 PM, the_croftmeister wrote:
At 8/26/2013 10:17:25 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 8/26/2013 10:13:21 PM, the_croftmeister wrote:
At 8/26/2013 10:01:33 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 8/26/2013 5:58:13 PM, MysticEgg wrote:
Dear faithful,

As the title suggests, I have a question to all religious people. The question is:

"What will, if anything, convince you to renounce your faith?"

A simple question but with a difficult answer. I'm genuinely intrigued and I believe religion is a fascinating topic. I would appreciate it if I could get someone to explain what can. I know it's very personal, but the floor's open to any and all. (Although, if you're not religious, you might have a hard time answering the question :P )

Sincerely and with kindest regards,
An interested atheist.

One must show absolutely that God does not exist and that Jesus Christ was a fake.
So basically nothing

Without that, one would have nothing to convince someone who has felt influenced by God.
Well there is always 'on the balance of probabilities'. Or even 'beyond reasonable doubt'. You require proof of the falsehood of something I haven't even seen convincing evidence of in the first place. If your position is that where there is no evidence people should be able to believe what they want then fair enough, I'll submit to that. But let's not kid ourselves into thinking there is any possibility that either of those things can be proven absolutely.

Oh, I know they can't. That is why a devout religious person that believes in God and/or Jesus Christ has all the reason to never stop believing.

Ok, as long as we are on the same page. There are reasons other than truth to believe something though.
the_croftmeister
Posts: 678
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8/26/2013 10:26:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/26/2013 10:23:21 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
Oh, I know they can't. That is why a devout religious person that believes in God and/or Jesus Christ has all the reason to never stop believing.

Actually, thinking about it a second this is wrong. A religious person (who requires what you do) has no reason to ever stop believing. This is not the same as having a reason not to stop believing.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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8/26/2013 10:28:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/26/2013 8:52:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 8/26/2013 6:56:19 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
If I became convinced moral realism was false.
If Jesus' bones were found.
If I became convinced of metaphysical naturalism/physicalism.

Are just some ways I can think of.

What if Aliens came to Earth, and they are as much more intelligent than us as we are to chimps, and they were all Atheists when asked about God? lol

It'd give me pause. Don't know how it'd play out tbh.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/26/2013 10:29:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/26/2013 10:23:07 PM, the_croftmeister wrote:
At 8/26/2013 10:20:15 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/26/2013 6:56:19 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
If I became convinced moral realism was false.

This shouldn't be too hard. This should do it, one day.
I'm not sure that there are good arguments against the realism of morality if you presuppose the existence of God. If you presuppose his non-existence then there are good arguments. If you presuppose neither then you have nothing to go on because the existence of God is a rational explanation for how morality could be real.

I think there are good arguments for why we should believe moral realism is false, but they are not reasons that actually concern its truth but rather the benefits of acting as if it is false.

I don't really see why people think divine morality is objective morality. Even if you do presuppose God, what he deems a proper employment of freewill would still be relative to him and his imposition of consequences. A person's who is unfazed by the possibility of hell would bear no moral imperative to act according to God's laws. So all it is, is relativism assigned to an eternal creature. The ethics are not, in themselves, absolute.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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8/26/2013 10:35:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/26/2013 10:20:15 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/26/2013 6:56:19 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
If I became convinced moral realism was false.

This shouldn't be too hard. This should do it, one day.

It's possbile but doubt it. I find the arguments for moral realism a billion times more convincing then the ones against. Besides, I used to be a moral subjectivist and I find I have no reason to go back to being one or a moral nihilist.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/26/2013 10:36:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/26/2013 10:35:07 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/26/2013 10:20:15 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/26/2013 6:56:19 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
If I became convinced moral realism was false.

This shouldn't be too hard. This should do it, one day.

It's possbile but doubt it. I find the arguments for moral realism a billion times more convincing then the ones against. Besides, I used to be a moral subjectivist and I find I have no reason to go back to being one or a moral nihilist.

What about if libertarianism is sufficiently proven false to you, would that make you irreligious? I know that's largely what did it for me, though I must admit, I was never fully religious to begin with.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
the_croftmeister
Posts: 678
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8/26/2013 10:43:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/26/2013 10:29:07 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/26/2013 10:23:07 PM, the_croftmeister wrote:
At 8/26/2013 10:20:15 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/26/2013 6:56:19 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
If I became convinced moral realism was false.

This shouldn't be too hard. This should do it, one day.
I'm not sure that there are good arguments against the realism of morality if you presuppose the existence of God. If you presuppose his non-existence then there are good arguments. If you presuppose neither then you have nothing to go on because the existence of God is a rational explanation for how morality could be real.

I think there are good arguments for why we should believe moral realism is false, but they are not reasons that actually concern its truth but rather the benefits of acting as if it is false.

I don't really see why people think divine morality is objective morality. Even if you do presuppose God, what he deems a proper employment of freewill would still be relative to him and his imposition of consequences. A person's who is unfazed by the possibility of hell would bear no moral imperative to act according to God's laws. So all it is, is relativism assigned to an eternal creature. The ethics are not, in themselves, absolute.

Let me put it this way. Objective morality differs from subjective morality in that one of the subjective moralities is deemed special. The argument for not allowing people to claim specialness of their own subjective morality is that people are all pretty much the same, there has never been any convincing demonstration of superpowers attributed to individual people. If however, God was the entity in question, that argument cannot be said to apply to him. I don't think God would be special either myself, but I can understand why the argument that God's morality is not special is unconvincing to some. So while I sympathise with your view, since we would have no means of measuring this 'specialness', the only way we can discount its existence would be by appeal to Okham's Razor, which is inductive only. I believe it, you believe it, but we can't say that to not believe it is completely irrational.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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8/26/2013 10:50:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At this point, Nothing could practically convince me.

But in theory, if it is proven that a universe and life, can pop up from the given space-time alone, without any sentient will or plan.
Suqua
Posts: 433
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8/27/2013 12:39:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/26/2013 5:58:13 PM, MysticEgg wrote:
Dear faithful,

As the title suggests, I have a question to all religious people. The question is:

"What will, if anything, convince you to renounce your faith?"

A simple question but with a difficult answer. I'm genuinely intrigued and I believe religion is a fascinating topic. I would appreciate it if I could get someone to explain what can. I know it's very personal, but the floor's open to any and all. (Although, if you're not religious, you might have a hard time answering the question :P )

Sincerely and with kindest regards,
An interested atheist.

I would have to hate that God loves me. Or just not believe that God is interested in me.
MysticEgg
Posts: 524
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8/27/2013 3:55:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/27/2013 12:39:45 AM, Suqua wrote:
At 8/26/2013 5:58:13 PM, MysticEgg wrote:
Dear faithful,

As the title suggests, I have a question to all religious people. The question is:

"What will, if anything, convince you to renounce your faith?"

A simple question but with a difficult answer. I'm genuinely intrigued and I believe religion is a fascinating topic. I would appreciate it if I could get someone to explain what can. I know it's very personal, but the floor's open to any and all. (Although, if you're not religious, you might have a hard time answering the question :P )

Sincerely and with kindest regards,
An interested atheist.

I would have to hate that God loves me. Or just not believe that God is interested in me.

So... we would have to show you how it's very unlikely for a god to exist - and that if it does, it probably has little care for anything?
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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8/27/2013 4:40:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/26/2013 5:58:13 PM, MysticEgg wrote:
Dear faithful,

As the title suggests, I have a question to all religious people. The question is:

"What will, if anything, convince you to renounce your faith?"

A simple question but with a difficult answer. I'm genuinely intrigued and I believe religion is a fascinating topic. I would appreciate it if I could get someone to explain what can. I know it's very personal, but the floor's open to any and all. (Although, if you're not religious, you might have a hard time answering the question :P )

Sincerely and with kindest regards,
An interested atheist.

If extraterrestrial life were discovered, or if universal common ancestry/abiogenesis were somehow proven, those things would provide a serious challenge to my belief system.