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Response to other Debate.org User's Questions

Chuwilliams
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9/1/2013 8:37:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Earlier today, I was speaking with a Debate.org user about religions. He is an atheist and he asked me three questions about religions. Being a Christian, I can only truly speak for my religion. So, here is my response to his questions. Enjoy and be sure to give me your thoughts.

"Why would a perfect being require worship from its creations?"

2 King 17: 38-39 - Do not forget the covenant I have made with you, and do not worship other gods. Rather, worship the LORD your God; it is he who will deliver you from the hand of all your enemies."

1 Chronicles 16: 23-31 - Sing to the LORD, all the earth; proclaim his salvation day after day. Declare his glory among the nations, his marvelous deeds among all peoples. For great is the LORD and most worthy of praise; he is to be feared above all gods. For all the gods of the nations are idols, but the LORD made the heavens. Splendor and majesty are before him; strength and joy in his dwelling place. Ascribe to the LORD, O families of nations, ascribe to the LORD glory and strength, ascribe to the LORD the glory due his name. Bring an offering and come before him; worship the LORD in the splendor of his holiness. Tremble before him, all the earth! The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved. Let the heavens rejoice, let the earth be glad; let them say among the nations, "The LORD reigns!"

God sent his son, Jesus Christ, to die for us so we could be forgiven from our sins and be saved from eternal damnation. Due to the fact that God and Jesus Christ literally saved us from burning in hell, God wants us to appreciate him. Worshipping is a way for Christians to show God our appreciation and to tell him we trust in him and love him. It"d be like saying "thank you" for someone who did you a good deed. It"s just a way of saying thank you.

That fact that you used the word "require" really throws me off. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that worshipping God is required for salvation. The only thing that is required for salvation is accepting God and Jesus Christ into your heart.

"Why would a perfect being remain illusive to its creations?"

There"s no bible verses for this one. However, God hasn"t remained illusive for all of time. He was on Earth during the book of Genesis and was in the presence of Adam and Eve. Although this was the only time he was on Earth, he has sent other signs to Earth, like when he appeared as a burning bush in front of Moses, when he sent Jesus Christ to Earth, and when he sent his vision to John in the book of Revelation. So, he hasn"t been completely illusive. However, it is those scenarios previously mentioned, as well as other scenarios where God made his existence known, that should show human beings that he is the one and only God and that he truly exists. People should find God, he shouldn"t impose himself on people.

"Why would a perfect being allow its creations to suffer?"

Regarding your last question, I"m not sure whether you"re talking about sending people to hell or suffering on Earth. Either way, I will explain both.

Allowing suffering on Earth:

Genesis 3: 16-24 - To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat from it,"
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."
Adam[c] named his wife Eve,[d] because she would become the mother of all the living.
The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating fruit from the tree. This was the world"s first sin. In doing that, Adam and Eve introduced sin into the human race/ So, since all humans were going to sin from there on out, all humans were going to be punished and suffer during their time on Earth So, human suffering is due to Adam and Eve disobeying God.

Sending People to Hell:

John 3:36 - Those who believe in the Son have eternal life, but those who do not obey the Son will never have life. God"s anger stays on them.

John 3:17 - God did not send his son into the world to judge the world guilty, but to save the world through him.

Back to the scenario of a friend doing you a good deed. Suppose he or she did you a good deed and you didn"t care. Would that fiend do you any other good deeds? Probably not. God is the same way. He sent his son to earth to save us. However, if people deny that and/or don"t care, then God will not save them. It"d be like marrying someone who hates you. It simply doesn"t make sense.

La Fin
mrsatan
Posts: 428
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9/1/2013 9:59:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
In regards to the first question:
"2 King 17: 38-39 - Do not forget the covenant I have made with you, and do not worship other gods. Rather, worship the LORD your God;"

A true Christian follows the bible, the bible tells you to worship God, therefore, to be a Christian, worshipping God is a requirement.

But perhaps I should have worded it differently. Rather than requiring worship, I would ask why does God require belief in him?

"John 3:36 - Those who believe in the Son have eternal life, but those who do not obey the Son will never have life. God"s anger stays on them."

What I get from this is that if I lack belief that the Christian God exists, I am going to hell, regardless of how I live my life. (I am, at least generally, a very kind and generous person) But if I have belief in him, I would go to heaven (I'll assume that if ones behavior is contradictory to what the bible teaches, their belief may not be considered true) But God has given me no reason to believe he exists. The bible is nothing more than a book in my eyes, written by people. People have lied to me more times than I can count, and so I have no reason to believe their claims that the bible contains the word of God.

A long time ago, before I decided whether or not I would call myself a Christian, I asked God to give me reason to believe in him. I see no reason why he wouldn't if he does indeed exist. Supposedly, he wants us to accept him into our lives, and would be capable of showing me he exists. Showing me the truth would not be an imposition, as I was asking for it. But he did not respond. He gave me no reason to believe in him, but I have many reasons to not believe.

So the question then becomes, "What kind of God would resist my plea for help in believing, and thereafter damn me to hell for not believing?"

My answer: A God undeserving of my love.

As for Jesus dying for our sins... In what way is killing Gods son (a sin in and of itself) a reason to forgive our sins? That one has never made even the slightest bit of sense to me.

Question 2: I apologize, as I was using the wrong word here. More appropriately, "Why would a perfect being remain elusive of its creations?"

God has never revealed his existence to me, though he certainly is capable or doing so if he exists. I have asked him to show me the light. Either he refused, or he does not exist and I was talking to nothingness. As I said before, this question could have many answers, but in relation to the first one, it makes no sense. I don't believe in any things existence without being given reason to believe it exists. A common question posed here is that if you believe in God, why don't you believe in unicorns? (Assuming you don't). All I can figure is because other people believe in God as well, while very few, if any, actually believe unicorns exist. But in the end, there is as much proof to one as there is the other. Imagine the irony if God does exist, but his chosen embodiment is that of a unicorn.

Question 3:
I was referring to suffering on earth, but I addressed suffering in hell with question 1.

As for the story of Adam and Eve, it makes no sense. Not the story itself, but what it implies. God is supposed to be perfect. As such, if he wanted to create something that would not defy his will, he could. This is clearly what he wanted, and yet he was defied. And so, either God is not perfect, or he knew his creations would defy him. If it's the former, then God is not perfect as theists often claim. If it's the latter, then God is essentially a sadist.

I'm not sure if the bible ever claims God is perfect, but even if it doesn't, I have no real reason to believe anything in the bible, or any holy book for that matter, which includes the story of Adam and Eve.

However, even if I did believe the story, it would do nothing more than make me dislike God. If I knew of a man who's daughter/son disobeyed him, and ate something forbade to her/him, and the man subsequently cast his child out, I would be disgusted. I see no reason not to hold a God to the same standards I hold his creations. If anything, those standards should be higher for God.
To say one has free will, to have chosen other than they did, is to say they have will over their will... Will over the will they have over their will... Will over the will they have over the will they have over their will, etc... It's utter nonsense.
Chuwilliams
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9/2/2013 4:39:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"What I get from this is that if I lack belief that the Christian God exists, I am going to hell, regardless of how I live my life. (I am, at least generally, a very kind and generous person) But if I have belief in him, I would go to heaven (I'll assume that if ones behavior is contradictory to what the bible teaches, their belief may not be considered true) But God has given me no reason to believe he exists. The bible is nothing more than a book in my eyes, written by people. People have lied to me more times than I can count, and so I have no reason to believe their claims that the bible contains the word of God."

"So the question then becomes, "What kind of God would resist my plea for help in believing, and thereafter damn me to hell for not believing?"
My answer: A God undeserving of my love."

"God is supposed to be perfect. As such, if he wanted to create something that would not defy his will, he could. This is clearly what he wanted, and yet he was defied. And so, either God is not perfect, or he knew his creations would defy him. If it's the former, then God is not perfect as theists often claim. If it's the latter, then God is essentially a sadist."

"However, even if I did believe the story, it would do nothing more than make me dislike God."

Due to the quotes listed above that were made by you, it seems like you have a hatred for the idea of what God is rather than a belief that God doesn't exist. Not to say that you don't find the Christian theory rational, because you have also made statements that indicate you find Christianity irrational. However, it seems to me that a large portion of your lack of belief is because of a hatred towards the idea of God. I will try to address that aspect in this post.

On paper, I understand why you dislike the idea of who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. However, think of it this way; If you reject God, God rejects you. God wants humans to accept him because he is the creator of humans. He wants people to believe that Jesus, his own son, died on the cross for them to wash away their sins (I'll get to that in a second). However, it is up to you accept him to get into Heaven.

"I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live" (Deuteronomy 30:19)

I will explain the reason why Jesus died on the cross. It says multiple times in the Bible that sinners deserve to be put to death. Here are a few examples:

One who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall be put to death; the whole congregation shall stone the blasphemer. Aliens as well as citizens, when they blaspheme the Name, shall be put to death. (Leviticus 24:16)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife"with the wife of his neighbor"both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10)

Anyone who dishonors father or mother must be put to death. Such a person is guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9)

However, God didn't want that for his creations. Therefore, he sent his son, Jesus Christ, to Earth to die for us. He died for all of us so humans would no longer be put to death for their sins. Rather, humans could accept God and Jesus Christ into their hearts and be forgiven of their sins, whereas before, they would be put to death.

As far as Adam and Eve goes, here's the deal. God could've made humans that couldn't disobey him. However, he didn't want to. He didn't impose his will on Adam and Eve by making them his perfect "robots". He wanted to create humans that would trust that his word was right. He gave them the option to listen to him or not, but if they disobeyed, there would be consequences. They disobeyed, and therefore, the world was cursed.

That story is very similar to the way God gives people the option to accept him into their heart or not. He doesn't force anybody to be a Christian, which is the reason he hasn't physically made his presence known to you. He gives you an option to accept him or deny him. However, if you deny him, there will be consequences, which is why people who deny God get sent to hell.

To close my post, I'll address you statement that God has never given you a reason to believe in him. I just ask that you listen to what I'm saying, re-evaluate the Christian theory, and really keep an eye out for signs of God. The problem is based on what you have told me so far, what you've been told about Christianity has been less than truthful. Learn what the Bible really has to say before you continue your Atheist beliefs. Thank you.
mrsatan
Posts: 428
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9/4/2013 7:45:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"...it seems like you have a hatred for the idea of what God is rather than a belief that God doesn't exist."

This is somewhat accurate, but not entirely. It depends on how you define God. By my definition, God would be a being that is beyond us in some way(s), but I couldn't say in what way(s). I sincerely doubt that it's perfect in any way, and I see no reason to even believe there is only one of these beings, though either is possible.

I do not believe these Gods exist, or that they do not exist. I believe either is a possibility. But that has nothing to do with my feelings towards such a God. Because we know absolutely nothing for sure about this God, I cannot assess its character. I do not have any hate or love for a such a God because of this. Even if I felt I had adequate reason to believe in God(s), I couldn't believe any more than the above.

As for the Christian God, traits are assumed of it. I do have a strong dislike for the Christian ideology. Part of that is due to even the concept of hell. I do not accept that a perfectly good God would send any of his creations to such a place, for any reason. Essentially, if a God created us, that God would bear a part of the burden for our sins, because he has allowed us to sin. A truly good God would not condemn anyone for their sins, but instead take the time to help them see the way to goodness.

I do consider the Christian faith to be irrational. That's not to say that it is irrational for any Christian though. I'm sure most people of faith have rational reasoning for their faith. Their reasoning is simply different from mine. But nothing is inherently rational or irrational. That depends solely on the thought process used to reach a conclusion, not on the conclusion itself.

You say, "He doesn't force anybody to be a Christian, which is the reason he hasn't physically made his presence known to you."

This is simply not true. Assuming for a moment that the Christian God is real, making his presence known would not force anybody to be a Christian. Clearly Adam and Eve had free will, the choice to obey or disobey, follow or not follow, and they made the latter choices, even though God had made his presence known to them. Also, as you said in your first post, God showed himself to Moses, and to John. You say these, and other instances of showing himself, was to prove that he exists. But if he wanted to prove he exists, why leave doubt? Why not show himself to everyone? As I said, people lie. Constantly. I know this. I imagine you know this. And God would know this as well. And so he would know that people such as myself would not trust their words about him as truth. Increasing our knowledge would not be imposing his will upon us. It would simply let us make an informed choice.

As to the reasoning behind Christs death, that is an excellent explanation. I understand the logic behind it, but I still cannot accept it as sensible. God is the one doing the forgiving, and should not need any of it to happen. Beyond that, if he created everything, he also created the death sentence for these sins. It would make a lot more sense to just to have allowed us to be forgiven our sins in the first place.

Basically, as an atheist, I don't reject God. I reject religion, and the idea that anybody knows jack **** about God. I'm not saying that those who wrote the bible were lying either. They probably fully believed what they put down. But that doesn't mean they are correct. And until God dispels my doubts, they will continue to be there. You say I should re-evaluate Christianity before I continue to follow my atheistic beliefs. But I have no atheistic beliefs to continue following. I simply accept the fact that I don't know, and reject concepts that I find to be illogical.
To say one has free will, to have chosen other than they did, is to say they have will over their will... Will over the will they have over their will... Will over the will they have over the will they have over their will, etc... It's utter nonsense.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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9/4/2013 8:17:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/1/2013 8:37:39 PM, Chuwilliams wrote:
Earlier today, I was speaking with a Debate.org user about religions. He is an atheist and he asked me three questions about religions. Being a Christian, I can only truly speak for my religion. So, here is my response to his questions. Enjoy and be sure to give me your thoughts.

"Why would a perfect being require worship from its creations?"

2 King 17: 38-39 - Do not forget the covenant I have made with you, and do not worship other gods. Rather, worship the LORD your God; it is he who will deliver you from the hand of all your enemies."

1 Chronicles 16: 23-31 - Sing to the LORD, all the earth; proclaim his salvation day after day. Declare his glory among the nations, his marvelous deeds among all peoples. For great is the LORD and most worthy of praise; he is to be feared above all gods. For all the gods of the nations are idols, but the LORD made the heavens. Splendor and majesty are before him; strength and joy in his dwelling place. Ascribe to the LORD, O families of nations, ascribe to the LORD glory and strength, ascribe to the LORD the glory due his name. Bring an offering and come before him; worship the LORD in the splendor of his holiness. Tremble before him, all the earth! The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved. Let the heavens rejoice, let the earth be glad; let them say among the nations, "The LORD reigns!"

God sent his son, Jesus Christ, to die for us so we could be forgiven from our sins and be saved from eternal damnation. Due to the fact that God and Jesus Christ literally saved us from burning in hell, God wants us to appreciate him. Worshipping is a way for Christians to show God our appreciation and to tell him we trust in him and love him. It"d be like saying "thank you" for someone who did you a good deed. It"s just a way of saying thank you.

That fact that you used the word "require" really throws me off. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that worshipping God is required for salvation. The only thing that is required for salvation is accepting God and Jesus Christ into your heart.

Firstly, the Bible (esp. Old Testament) is rife with emphasis on how and when to worship God, namely: sacrifices. Even if Jesus put an end to all of that barbaric practice, it still doesn't answer why it was ever necessary in the first place.

Secondly, it doesn't answer why a God would "want" us to worship him anyway. Christians seem to project a contradictory duality to God, one the one hand a being mysterious and beyond full comprehension but, on the other, prone to petty human emotional wants.

"Why would a perfect being remain illusive to its creations?"

There"s no bible verses for this one. However, God hasn"t remained illusive for all of time. He was on Earth during the book of Genesis and was in the presence of Adam and Eve. Although this was the only time he was on Earth, he has sent other signs to Earth, like when he appeared as a burning bush in front of Moses, when he sent Jesus Christ to Earth, and when he sent his vision to John in the book of Revelation. So, he hasn"t been completely illusive. However, it is those scenarios previously mentioned, as well as other scenarios where God made his existence known, that should show human beings that he is the one and only God and that he truly exists. People should find God, he shouldn"t impose himself on people.

To ascertain my existence would neither require you to "find" me nor for me to "impose" myself upon you. Seems odd that God would be more limited than little ol' me.

"Why would a perfect being allow its creations to suffer?"

Regarding your last question, I"m not sure whether you"re talking about sending people to hell or suffering on Earth. Either way, I will explain both.

Allowing suffering on Earth:

Genesis 3: 16-24 - To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat from it,"
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."
Adam[c] named his wife Eve,[d] because she would become the mother of all the living.
The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating fruit from the tree. This was the world"s first sin. In doing that, Adam and Eve introduced sin into the human race/ So, since all humans were going to sin from there on out, all humans were going to be punished and suffer during their time on Earth So, human suffering is due to Adam and Eve disobeying God.

We're being punished for someone else's innocent mistake? That's horrible. This is a being worthy of worship?

Sending People to Hell:

John 3:36 - Those who believe in the Son have eternal life, but those who do not obey the Son will never have life. God"s anger stays on them.

John 3:17 - God did not send his son into the world to judge the world guilty, but to save the world through him.

Back to the scenario of a friend doing you a good deed. Suppose he or she did you a good deed and you didn"t care. Would that fiend do you any other good deeds? Probably not. God is the same way. He sent his son to earth to save us. However, if people deny that and/or don"t care, then God will not save them. It"d be like marrying someone who hates you. It simply doesn"t make sense.

La Fin

Again, you project God as little more than a petty human with super powers. Is this really your intent? Shouldn't God be above such trivial human failings? When you love someone (and doesn't God love us) you also look past such failings. Rather than some transcendental being of pure love, you have posited a inconstant two-year old with reality altering powers.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,065
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9/4/2013 9:06:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
drafterman
God suffered on the cross!! DUH!!
God does all things perfect! God created creation PERFECT!! He did not mess up.. Man did!!

Adam the PERFECT Man sinned!!
drafterman It was man that brought into the PERFECT creation CORRUPTION it was NOT God' doing but mans!! Because the PERFECT Man sinned no other perfect men could be found to pay for the sin.. "An eye for an eye!" All men born, come from Adam a corrupted man, thus all are born corrupted!
You can't get perfection from corruption, no man can be formed perfect because all have roots back to the imperfect Adam!

No one could be found that is until, the Perfect Man Jesus came alone.. He died for the sin of Adam; He alone replaced the corrupted man, becoming the Perfect second Adam-- Jesus is perfect so when he died he sprang up, out of the grave because he was sinless!!

Sin could not kill Jesus because he had none!
NO ONE..
drafterman no one can die two times ... You can't even kill a stinking dog twice!!! Jesus died he can't die again!! Jesus has been there and done that!!

Thus all ADDED to the body of Jesus can't die!!! All ADDED to the RESURRECTED Body of Jesus will have eternal life!!!

40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

DO YOU SEE IT???? (above)

drafterman Peter "ADDED" 3000 people to the Resurrected Body of Jesus the first day of Pentecost: By Immersing them into Jesus' Body!
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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9/4/2013 10:07:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"drafterman no one can die two times ... You can't even kill a stinking dog twice!!! Jesus died he can't die again!! Jesus has been there and done that!!"

How many times did Lazarus die?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."