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The Nature of the Beast

s-anthony
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9/4/2013 9:03:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I love how religionists say if God doesn't exist neither does good nor evil. As though God were the only reason, for the concept of right and wrong.

In every society, even atheistic societies, good and evil exist. Yet, the definition of good and evil is defined by the culture in which one lives; and, the moral code is usually codified in sacred texts. So, societies considered pagan or heathen, whose god does not exist (at least, in the minds of opposing religions) have moral codes. Societies and cultures who have existed long before their enemies were even a gleam in the eye of humanity.

How did they acquire this knowledge of good and evil, when their gods were merely idols?

Furthermore, in saying one's sense of morality is based on the existence of God, are we to conclude, in the absence of God, he, or she, would relinquish all human civility and become murderous, raping, plunderers, whose appetite for carnage is insatiable? Is the fear of God or the desire to please God the only thing that keeps them from doing those things, now? If so, society needs to be protected from such bloodthirsty beasts. For, only the thought of some deity's watchful eye keeps them from global extermination.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,056
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9/4/2013 9:28:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 9:03:43 PM, s-anthony wrote:
I love how religionists say if God doesn't exist neither does good nor evil. As though God were the only reason, for the concept of right and wrong.

In every society, even atheistic societies, good and evil exist. Yet, the definition of good and evil is defined by the culture in which one lives; and, the moral code is usually codified in sacred texts. So, societies considered pagan or heathen, whose god does not exist (at least, in the minds of opposing religions) have moral codes. Societies and cultures who have existed long before their enemies were even a gleam in the eye of humanity.

How did they acquire this knowledge of good and evil, when their gods were merely idols?

Furthermore, in saying one's sense of morality is based on the existence of God, are we to conclude, in the absence of God, he, or she, would relinquish all human civility and become murderous, raping, plunderers, whose appetite for carnage is insatiable? Is the fear of God or the desire to please God the only thing that keeps them from doing those things, now? If so, society needs to be protected from such bloodthirsty beasts. For, only the thought of some deity's watchful eye keeps them from global extermination.

Man has the "Knowledge of God and Evil" !
Man KNOWS beyond all doubt, it is the man that protects the family!! EVEN...
s-anthony even a man would protect a child that was not his, not in his family; from a snake!!

All men KNOW it is their job to protect the family!! All men ruled by LOVE do not need to be told what is good and the right thing to do! I say Adam did not LOVE Eve!
Adam did not protect Eve from the snake.. He did not need to know she was in trouble from the snake, he was told already by God not to eat!

Adam did not LOVE Eve or he would have stopped her from eating!

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

LOOK..
12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me"she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."

s-anthony God can put them together but not even God can force them to LOVE each other!
s-anthony
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9/4/2013 10:15:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 9:28:26 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 9/4/2013 9:03:43 PM, s-anthony wrote:
I love how religionists say if God doesn't exist neither does good nor evil. As though God were the only reason, for the concept of right and wrong.

In every society, even atheistic societies, good and evil exist. Yet, the definition of good and evil is defined by the culture in which one lives; and, the moral code is usually codified in sacred texts. So, societies considered pagan or heathen, whose god does not exist (at least, in the minds of opposing religions) have moral codes. Societies and cultures who have existed long before their enemies were even a gleam in the eye of humanity.

How did they acquire this knowledge of good and evil, when their gods were merely idols?

Furthermore, in saying one's sense of morality is based on the existence of God, are we to conclude, in the absence of God, he, or she, would relinquish all human civility and become murderous, raping, plunderers, whose appetite for carnage is insatiable? Is the fear of God or the desire to please God the only thing that keeps them from doing those things, now? If so, society needs to be protected from such bloodthirsty beasts. For, only the thought of some deity's watchful eye keeps them from global extermination.

Man has the "Knowledge of God and Evil" !
Man KNOWS beyond all doubt, it is the man that protects the family!! EVEN...
s-anthony even a man would protect a child that was not his, not in his family; from a snake!!

All men KNOW it is their job to protect the family!! All men ruled by LOVE do not need to be told what is good and the right thing to do! I say Adam did not LOVE Eve!
Adam did not protect Eve from the snake.. He did not need to know she was in trouble from the snake, he was told already by God not to eat!

Adam did not LOVE Eve or he would have stopped her from eating!

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

LOOK..
12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me"she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."

s-anthony God can put them together but not even God can force them to LOVE each other!

So, Adam was perfect, yet hateful?
Drayson
Posts: 288
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9/4/2013 11:41:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Agreed.

I think the only way that argument holds up is if there were such a thing as actual objective morality. If it were the case that things and actions were inherently "good" or "bad", regardless of perspectives, then I guess that system would require an author.

But as far as I'm concerned, morality is necessarily subjective. It's solely defined by what any given individual considers desirable or undesirable. And what is good for one may not be for another.
"I'm not saying I don't trust you...and I'm not saying I do. But I don't"

-Topper Harley
Dogknox
Posts: 5,056
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9/5/2013 9:31:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 10:15:06 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 9/4/2013 9:28:26 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 9/4/2013 9:03:43 PM, s-anthony wrote:
I love how religionists say if God doesn't exist neither does good nor evil. As though God were the only reason, for the concept of right and wrong.

In every society, even atheistic societies, good and evil exist. Yet, the definition of good and evil is defined by the culture in which one lives; and, the moral code is usually codified in sacred texts. So, societies considered pagan or heathen, whose god does not exist (at least, in the minds of opposing religions) have moral codes. Societies and cultures who have existed long before their enemies were even a gleam in the eye of humanity.

How did they acquire this knowledge of good and evil, when their gods were merely idols?

Furthermore, in saying one's sense of morality is based on the existence of God, are we to conclude, in the absence of God, he, or she, would relinquish all human civility and become murderous, raping, plunderers, whose appetite for carnage is insatiable? Is the fear of God or the desire to please God the only thing that keeps them from doing those things, now? If so, society needs to be protected from such bloodthirsty beasts. For, only the thought of some deity's watchful eye keeps them from global extermination.

Man has the "Knowledge of God and Evil" !
Man KNOWS beyond all doubt, it is the man that protects the family!! EVEN...
s-anthony even a man would protect a child that was not his, not in his family; from a snake!!

All men KNOW it is their job to protect the family!! All men ruled by LOVE do not need to be told what is good and the right thing to do! I say Adam did not LOVE Eve!
Adam did not protect Eve from the snake.. He did not need to know she was in trouble from the snake, he was told already by God not to eat!

Adam did not LOVE Eve or he would have stopped her from eating!

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

LOOK..
12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me"she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."

s-anthony God can put them together but not even God can force them to LOVE each other!

So, Adam was perfect, yet hateful?

s-anthony Good question..

I reply: NOPE!

Look at the scriptures... "Love for God is doing what God wants!!" God would never ever ask anything of us if it was not good!
Doing God' commands is "LOVING God!"

1 John 2:5
But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him:

1 John 5:3
In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

Clearly "Adam did not LOVE GOD!"

If you do not love, you cannot enter heaven, in Adams case he was removed from heaven because he did not have love!
Adam lost access to the "Tree Of Life" so he died! God did not kill Adam. Adam starved to death!
22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

s-anthony Adam would not need to know "Good from Evil" if he had run his life on love!! If Adam did not eat of the "Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil" and he would not have lost his access to the "Tree Of Life"!

John 13:34
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

Jesus the second Adam has Access to The Tree Of Life! Jesus >>IS<< the LIFE come down from heaven!

Dogknox
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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9/5/2013 8:05:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/5/2013 9:31:26 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 9/4/2013 10:15:06 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 9/4/2013 9:28:26 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 9/4/2013 9:03:43 PM, s-anthony wrote:
I love how religionists say if God doesn't exist neither does good nor evil. As though God were the only reason, for the concept of right and wrong.

In every society, even atheistic societies, good and evil exist. Yet, the definition of good and evil is defined by the culture in which one lives; and, the moral code is usually codified in sacred texts. So, societies considered pagan or heathen, whose god does not exist (at least, in the minds of opposing religions) have moral codes. Societies and cultures who have existed long before their enemies were even a gleam in the eye of humanity.

How did they acquire this knowledge of good and evil, when their gods were merely idols?

Furthermore, in saying one's sense of morality is based on the existence of God, are we to conclude, in the absence of God, he, or she, would relinquish all human civility and become murderous, raping, plunderers, whose appetite for carnage is insatiable? Is the fear of God or the desire to please God the only thing that keeps them from doing those things, now? If so, society needs to be protected from such bloodthirsty beasts. For, only the thought of some deity's watchful eye keeps them from global extermination.

Man has the "Knowledge of God and Evil" !
Man KNOWS beyond all doubt, it is the man that protects the family!! EVEN...
s-anthony even a man would protect a child that was not his, not in his family; from a snake!!

All men KNOW it is their job to protect the family!! All men ruled by LOVE do not need to be told what is good and the right thing to do! I say Adam did not LOVE Eve!
Adam did not protect Eve from the snake.. He did not need to know she was in trouble from the snake, he was told already by God not to eat!

Adam did not LOVE Eve or he would have stopped her from eating!

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

LOOK..
12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me"she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."

s-anthony God can put them together but not even God can force them to LOVE each other!

So, Adam was perfect, yet hateful?

s-anthony Good question..

I reply: NOPE!

Look at the scriptures... "Love for God is doing what God wants!!" God would never ever ask anything of us if it was not good!
Doing God' commands is "LOVING God!"

1 John 2:5
But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him:

1 John 5:3
In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

Clearly "Adam did not LOVE GOD!"

If you do not love, you cannot enter heaven, in Adams case he was removed from heaven because he did not have love!
Adam lost access to the "Tree Of Life" so he died! God did not kill Adam. Adam starved to death!
22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

s-anthony Adam would not need to know "Good from Evil" if he had run his life on love!! If Adam did not eat of the "Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil" and he would not have lost his access to the "Tree Of Life"!

John 13:34
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

Jesus the second Adam has Access to The Tree Of Life! Jesus >>IS<< the LIFE come down from heaven!

Dogknox

Again, Adam was hateful, yet a perfect person? What need was there for the fall? Wasn't Adam hateful enough, without it?
Dogknox
Posts: 5,056
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9/7/2013 4:31:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
s-anthony you said.. Again, Adam was hateful, yet a perfect person? What need was there for the fall? Wasn't Adam hateful enough, without it?

I reply: Hateful; Full of HATE!!!

No Adam was NOT hateful. Adam did not have LOVE!!
Eve did not have LOVE!!
If they loved each other they would not have needed to cover their naked bodies!

Eve did not love Adam.. She did not do what he commanded! Adam told eve "Do not even touch the tree"!!
Adam did not love God.. God commanded Adam "Do not eat of the tree"!

They were removed NOT because of HATE but because they lacked LOVE!!!
They both died because they lost access to the "Tree Of Life"! They could eat all they wanted of the "Tree Of Life" but removed from the garden they could not!

God made man (Adam) in his image...GOD IS LOVE!
s-anthony Adam was given "free will" so he could love.. You must be able to FREELY; WILLINGLY give your love or your love would not be real true love!

Adam made a choice.. "Not to Love God or Eve"!
Adam was removed because; Only those who LOVE can enter heaven!
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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9/7/2013 5:35:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/7/2013 4:31:38 PM, Dogknox wrote:
s-anthony you said.. Again, Adam was hateful, yet a perfect person? What need was there for the fall? Wasn't Adam hateful enough, without it?

I reply: Hateful; Full of HATE!!!

No Adam was NOT hateful. Adam did not have LOVE!!
Eve did not have LOVE!!
If they loved each other they would not have needed to cover their naked bodies!

Eve did not love Adam.. She did not do what he commanded! Adam told eve "Do not even touch the tree"!!
Adam did not love God.. God commanded Adam "Do not eat of the tree"!

They were removed NOT because of HATE but because they lacked LOVE!!!
They both died because they lost access to the "Tree Of Life"! They could eat all they wanted of the "Tree Of Life" but removed from the garden they could not!

God made man (Adam) in his image...GOD IS LOVE!
s-anthony Adam was given "free will" so he could love.. You must be able to FREELY; WILLINGLY give your love or your love would not be real true love!

Adam made a choice.. "Not to Love God or Eve"!
Adam was removed because; Only those who LOVE can enter heaven!

Adam was created in the image of God; God is love, but Adam had no love.

What kind of sense does that make? If Adam were created in the image of God wouldn't that image be one of love?

Furthermore, didn't the writer of Romans say love fulfills the law? How were Adam and Eve perfect if they were without love?
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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9/7/2013 7:22:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/7/2013 5:35:10 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 9/7/2013 4:31:38 PM, Dogknox wrote:
s-anthony you said.. Again, Adam was hateful, yet a perfect person? What need was there for the fall? Wasn't Adam hateful enough, without it?

I reply: Hateful; Full of HATE!!!

No Adam was NOT hateful. Adam did not have LOVE!!
Eve did not have LOVE!!
If they loved each other they would not have needed to cover their naked bodies!

Eve did not love Adam.. She did not do what he commanded! Adam told eve "Do not even touch the tree"!!
Adam did not love God.. God commanded Adam "Do not eat of the tree"!

They were removed NOT because of HATE but because they lacked LOVE!!!
They both died because they lost access to the "Tree Of Life"! They could eat all they wanted of the "Tree Of Life" but removed from the garden they could not!

God made man (Adam) in his image...GOD IS LOVE!
s-anthony Adam was given "free will" so he could love.. You must be able to FREELY; WILLINGLY give your love or your love would not be real true love!

Adam made a choice.. "Not to Love God or Eve"!
Adam was removed because; Only those who LOVE can enter heaven!

Adam was created in the image of God; God is love, but Adam had no love.

What kind of sense does that make? If Adam were created in the image of God wouldn't that image be one of love?

Furthermore, didn't the writer of Romans say love fulfills the law? How were Adam and Eve perfect if they were without love?

The love of God is His invisible knowledge where His creation exists called wavelengths of energy, which are terms the first century saints didn't have to describe the invisible Heaven. The love of God is only known by us saints during this first age but in the next age, ALL God's people will know Him through His knowledge.

So the image of God is invisible and so are we in our created existence. What we see, hear, taste, smell and touch is only an illusion made by processed wavelengths of energy, which are the lowest form of information.

The information that man lived with during this first age came from a different kind of energy that vibrates in disharmony and causes man to love this world instead of our created existence which vibrates in harmony forever.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,056
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9/8/2013 2:39:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
s-anthony you asked.. Adam was created in the image of God; God is love, but Adam had no love.

What kind of sense does that make? If Adam were created in the image of God wouldn't that image be one of love?

Furthermore, didn't the writer of Romans say love fulfills the law? How were Adam and Eve perfect if they were without love?


I reply: They (Adam & Eve) were made In the Image!
Love must be given freely or it is NOT LOVE.. Thus free choice!
They had the ability to love or not to love, it was theirs alone to chose!
They made their choice... And it was not to love!
It was their decision ALONE that decided their fate!
There is ONLY Love allowed into heaven, they did not love so they were removed.. It is just this simple!

You ask: Furthermore, didn't the writer of Romans say love fulfills the law? How were Adam and Eve perfect if they were without love?

I reply: Good question, think it through... Adam was made Perfect... Thus his sin was the most grave.. the perfect man made a choice to sin.. To disobey God! It was his sin that corrupted all of creation (including us)! God does everything perfect thus creation was perfect.. Perfect means man had to have the ability to chose, to have free will!

s-anthony look at it this way... If God made Adam and Eve love each other, then their love would not be perfect love, it would be coerced (forced)!
God being the perfect God had to give us the freedom to chose to love or not to love!

Romans say love fulfills the law? YES and the LAW came AFTER the sin of Adam! There was NO law needed if they LOVED!! Eating of the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil" opened their eyes to law.. it was then they realized it is wrong to be naked!
Before they ate>>>> They had LOVE alone to rule their lives!
Jesus the second PERFECT man loved.. He obeyed his father he GAVE us his body totally out of love!
He gave us his body, his soul and his divinity! He willingly let go of his body, his life and his kingship becoming the lowest of the low all for "US"! He died sinless so he sprang out of the grave resurrected never ever, to die again! SO....
s-anthony so all peoples ADDED to Jesus' resurrected body will also never ever die!

Jesus loves us so much he gives Christians his body to be consumed total PERFECT GIVING OF SELF!!
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
&
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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9/8/2013 10:00:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/8/2013 2:39:09 PM, Dogknox wrote:
s-anthony you asked.. Adam was created in the image of God; God is love, but Adam had no love.

What kind of sense does that make? If Adam were created in the image of God wouldn't that image be one of love?

Furthermore, didn't the writer of Romans say love fulfills the law? How were Adam and Eve perfect if they were without love?


I reply: They (Adam & Eve) were made In the Image!
Love must be given freely or it is NOT LOVE.. Thus free choice!
They had the ability to love or not to love, it was theirs alone to chose!
They made their choice... And it was not to love!
It was their decision ALONE that decided their fate!
There is ONLY Love allowed into heaven, they did not love so they were removed.. It is just this simple!

So, they were made in the image of God; but, they looked nothing like God.

You ask: Furthermore, didn't the writer of Romans say love fulfills the law? How were Adam and Eve perfect if they were without love?

I reply: Good question, think it through... Adam was made Perfect... Thus his sin was the most grave.. the perfect man made a choice to sin.. To disobey God! It was his sin that corrupted all of creation (including us)! God does everything perfect thus creation was perfect.. Perfect means man had to have the ability to chose, to have free will!

So, Adam and Eve were made perfect; however, they were not perfect. How do perfect people make mistakes?

s-anthony look at it this way... If God made Adam and Eve love each other, then their love would not be perfect love, it would be coerced (forced)!
God being the perfect God had to give us the freedom to chose to love or not to love!

If Adam and Eve had perfect love, then, God would not have to make them love each other.

Romans say love fulfills the law? YES and the LAW came AFTER the sin of Adam! There was NO law needed if they LOVED!! Eating of the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil" opened their eyes to law.. it was then they realized it is wrong to be naked!
Before they ate>>>> They had LOVE alone to rule their lives!
Jesus the second PERFECT man loved.. He obeyed his father he GAVE us his body totally out of love!

How do you say in one breath:

"Adam did not LOVE Eve!

Adam did not protect Eve from the snake.. He did not need to know she was in trouble from the snake, he was told already by God not to eat!

Adam did not LOVE Eve or he would have stopped her from eating!"

Yet, in the next breath:

"Before they ate>>>> They had LOVE alone to rule their lives!"

He gave us his body, his soul and his divinity! He willingly let go of his body, his life and his kingship becoming the lowest of the low all for "US"! He died sinless so he sprang out of the grave resurrected never ever, to die again! SO....
s-anthony so all peoples ADDED to Jesus' resurrected body will also never ever die!

Jesus loves us so much he gives Christians his body to be consumed total PERFECT GIVING OF SELF!!
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
&
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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9/9/2013 11:28:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/8/2013 10:00:16 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 9/8/2013 2:39:09 PM, Dogknox wrote:
s-anthony you asked.. Adam was created in the image of God; God is love, but Adam had no love.

What kind of sense does that make? If Adam were created in the image of God wouldn't that image be one of love?

Furthermore, didn't the writer of Romans say love fulfills the law? How were Adam and Eve perfect if they were without love?


I reply: They (Adam & Eve) were made In the Image!
Love must be given freely or it is NOT LOVE.. Thus free choice!
They had the ability to love or not to love, it was theirs alone to chose!
They made their choice... And it was not to love!
It was their decision ALONE that decided their fate!
There is ONLY Love allowed into heaven, they did not love so they were removed.. It is just this simple!

So, they were made in the image of God; but, they looked nothing like God.

You ask: Furthermore, didn't the writer of Romans say love fulfills the law? How were Adam and Eve perfect if they were without love?

I reply: Good question, think it through... Adam was made Perfect... Thus his sin was the most grave.. the perfect man made a choice to sin.. To disobey God! It was his sin that corrupted all of creation (including us)! God does everything perfect thus creation was perfect.. Perfect means man had to have the ability to chose, to have free will!

So, Adam and Eve were made perfect; however, they were not perfect. How do perfect people make mistakes?

s-anthony look at it this way... If God made Adam and Eve love each other, then their love would not be perfect love, it would be coerced (forced)!
God being the perfect God had to give us the freedom to chose to love or not to love!

If Adam and Eve had perfect love, then, God would not have to make them love each other.

Romans say love fulfills the law? YES and the LAW came AFTER the sin of Adam! There was NO law needed if they LOVED!! Eating of the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil" opened their eyes to law.. it was then they realized it is wrong to be naked!
Before they ate>>>> They had LOVE alone to rule their lives!
Jesus the second PERFECT man loved.. He obeyed his father he GAVE us his body totally out of love!

How do you say in one breath:

"Adam did not LOVE Eve!

Adam did not protect Eve from the snake.. He did not need to know she was in trouble from the snake, he was told already by God not to eat!

Adam did not LOVE Eve or he would have stopped her from eating!"

Yet, in the next breath:

"Before they ate>>>> They had LOVE alone to rule their lives!"

He gave us his body, his soul and his divinity! He willingly let go of his body, his life and his kingship becoming the lowest of the low all for "US"! He died sinless so he sprang out of the grave resurrected never ever, to die again! SO....
s-anthony so all peoples ADDED to Jesus' resurrected body will also never ever die!

Jesus loves us so much he gives Christians his body to be consumed total PERFECT GIVING OF SELF!!
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
&
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

Adam and Eve did exactly as God planned and created them to do and that was to love the delusion called this world instead of our God.

God is the Creator of ALL things, not just some of it.

Amos 4
13: For lo, he who forms the mountains, and creates the wind, and declares to man what is his thought;

Isaiah 45
7: I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the Lord, who do all these things.

Deuteronomy 32
39: "`See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Exodus 4:
10: But Moses said to the LORD, "Oh, my Lord, I am not eloquent, either heretofore or since thou hast spoken to thy servant; but I am slow of speech and of tongue."
11: Then the LORD said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him dumb, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?
12: Now therefore go, and I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall speak."

Psalm 33
8: Let all the earth fear the LORD, let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him!
9: For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood forth.
10: The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nought; he frustrates the plans of the peoples.
11: The counsel of the LORD stands for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
12: Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!
13: The LORD looks down from heaven, he sees all the sons of men;
14: from where he sits enthroned he looks forth on all the inhabitants of the earth,
15: he who fashions the hearts of them all, and observes all their deeds.
16: A king is not saved by his great army; a warrior is not delivered by his great strength.
17: The war horse is a vain hope for victory, and by its great might it cannot save.

Psalm 92
5: How great are thy works, O LORD! Thy thoughts are very deep!
6: The dull man cannot know, the stupid cannot understand this:
7: that, though the wicked sprout like grass and all evildoers flourish, they are doomed to destruction for ever, ( the wicked and evildoer is the flesh of man, not the spirit of man that was created to live forever.)
8: but thou, O LORD, art on high for ever.
Polaris
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9/9/2013 1:50:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 9:03:43 PM, s-anthony wrote:
I love how religionists say if God doesn't exist neither does good nor evil. As though God were the only reason, for the concept of right and wrong.

Generally I find this is because those inducted in a religious framework of morality simply aren't aware or knowledgeable of alternative secular moral philosophies. Usually when people make these sort of claims, I bring up utilitarianism, consequentialism, deontology, rule ethics, the categorical imperative, and I might as well be speaking Greek because these are completely foreign concepts to them.
AeneasPhebe
Posts: 213
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9/9/2013 2:24:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 9:03:43 PM, s-anthony wrote:

There is no absence of God, even in atheist or other religionist with different gods. God wrote His Law on our hearts, all of man. Therefore, even if your atheist or pagan or whatever, you have that Law and can use it and follow it. God exist and the thing is, I do not have to prove it, He has proven Himself.
Polaris
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9/9/2013 4:14:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/9/2013 2:24:57 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/4/2013 9:03:43 PM, s-anthony wrote:

There is no absence of God, even in atheist or other religionist with different gods. God wrote His Law on our hearts, all of man. Therefore, even if your atheist or pagan or whatever, you have that Law and can use it and follow it. God exist and the thing is, I do not have to prove it, He has proven Himself.

You're begging the question.
AeneasPhebe
Posts: 213
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9/9/2013 4:27:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/9/2013 4:14:03 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 9/9/2013 2:24:57 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/4/2013 9:03:43 PM, s-anthony wrote:

There is no absence of God, even in atheist or other religionist with different gods. God wrote His Law on our hearts, all of man. Therefore, even if your atheist or pagan or whatever, you have that Law and can use it and follow it. God exist and the thing is, I do not have to prove it, He has proven Himself.

You're begging the question.

I am not begging anything.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,056
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9/9/2013 5:13:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/8/2013 10:00:16 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 9/8/2013 2:39:09 PM, Dogknox wrote:
s-anthony you asked.. Adam was created in the image of God; God is love, but Adam had no love.

What kind of sense does that make? If Adam were created in the image of God wouldn't that image be one of love?

Furthermore, didn't the writer of Romans say love fulfills the law? How were Adam and Eve perfect if they were without love?


I reply: They (Adam & Eve) were made In the Image!
Love must be given freely or it is NOT LOVE.. Thus free choice!
They had the ability to love or not to love, it was theirs alone to chose!
They made their choice... And it was not to love!
It was their decision ALONE that decided their fate!
There is ONLY Love allowed into heaven, they did not love so they were removed.. It is just this simple!

So, they were made in the image of God; but, they looked nothing like God.

You ask: Furthermore, didn't the writer of Romans say love fulfills the law? How were Adam and Eve perfect if they were without love?

I reply: Good question, think it through... Adam was made Perfect... Thus his sin was the most grave.. the perfect man made a choice to sin.. To disobey God! It was his sin that corrupted all of creation (including us)! God does everything perfect thus creation was perfect.. Perfect means man had to have the ability to chose, to have free will!

So, Adam and Eve were made perfect; however, they were not perfect. How do perfect people make mistakes?

s-anthony look at it this way... If God made Adam and Eve love each other, then their love would not be perfect love, it would be coerced (forced)!
God being the perfect God had to give us the freedom to chose to love or not to love!

If Adam and Eve had perfect love, then, God would not have to make them love each other.

Romans say love fulfills the law? YES and the LAW came AFTER the sin of Adam! There was NO law needed if they LOVED!! Eating of the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil" opened their eyes to law.. it was then they realized it is wrong to be naked!
Before they ate>>>> They had LOVE alone to rule their lives!
Jesus the second PERFECT man loved.. He obeyed his father he GAVE us his body totally out of love!

How do you say in one breath:

"Adam did not LOVE Eve!

Adam did not protect Eve from the snake.. He did not need to know she was in trouble from the snake, he was told already by God not to eat!

Adam did not LOVE Eve or he would have stopped her from eating!"

Yet, in the next breath:

"Before they ate>>>> They had LOVE alone to rule their lives!"

He gave us his body, his soul and his divinity! He willingly let go of his body, his life and his kingship becoming the lowest of the low all for "US"! He died sinless so he sprang out of the grave resurrected never ever, to die again! SO....
s-anthony so all peoples ADDED to Jesus' resurrected body will also never ever die!

Jesus loves us so much he gives Christians his body to be consumed total PERFECT GIVING OF SELF!!
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
&
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

You pointed out.. So, they were made in the image of God; but, they looked nothing like God.
I reply: How do you know?! God is spirit.
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

You asked.. So, Adam and Eve were made perfect; however, they were not perfect. How do perfect people make mistakes?

I reply: They were perfect because they "Had Free Will"! Dogs, Cats, Pigs, Snails, Chicken etc can't love! They run on animal desires!
Man being above that of animals, can CHOSE to Give of himself from the heart or NOT!
The fact they can CHOOSE makes them perfect makes them in God' image.. They CAN Love or not love!

You pointed out... IF... If Adam and Eve had perfect love, then, God would not have to make them love each other.
I reply YES you are right.. If they had Love they would not have been kicked out of heaven! But the fact remains: The perfect man did not love!

You ask.. How do you say in one breath:
"Adam did not LOVE Eve!
Adam did not protect Eve from the snake.. He did not need to know she was in trouble from the snake, he was told already by God not to eat!
Adam did not LOVE Eve or he would have stopped her from eating!"
Yet, in the next breath:
"Before they ate>>>> They had LOVE alone to rule their lives!"


I reply... You are mixed up...
I said.. They had the CHOICE to love or not to love! They had "free will".. meaning they could LOVE!
You can't have the ability to love without the right to chose!!

s-anthony Think it out... IF...
s-anthony "If you will love me... I will pay you eighteen dollars!"
Would this be true love??! Can I buy your love?!
OR...
s-anthony or if.. You refuse to love me. I'll punch you square in the nose"!!
Would this be true love??! Can anyone FORCE you to love??! Could I lock you up in a cage and beat you every day until you decide to love me????!

God put the two together but he had to let them decide to love or not to love!!

Also.. clearly Adam did not love God...
Love of God is to do what he commands!
1 John 5:3
In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

s-anthony from the verse above "WHAT"..
What is love for God?!

Look... God commanded not to eat!!!
Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."

s-anthony No place can you read God telling the man "DO NOT TOUCH"!!!! God never said "Do NOT touch"!

But what do we read next..
Eve's words... Genesis 3:3 but God did say, "You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.""

Clearly is was Adam who COMMANDED Eve.. "Do NOT even touch the stinking tree"! Clearly Eve did not love Adam she did not do what he COMMANDED!
Polaris
Posts: 1,120
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9/9/2013 8:51:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/9/2013 4:27:27 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/9/2013 4:14:03 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 9/9/2013 2:24:57 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/4/2013 9:03:43 PM, s-anthony wrote:

There is no absence of God, even in atheist or other religionist with different gods. God wrote His Law on our hearts, all of man. Therefore, even if your atheist or pagan or whatever, you have that Law and can use it and follow it. God exist and the thing is, I do not have to prove it, He has proven Himself.

You're begging the question.

I am not begging anything.

You are. You cannot assume your conclusion in the premise -- not logically.
AeneasPhebe
Posts: 213
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9/9/2013 9:09:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/9/2013 8:51:20 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 9/9/2013 4:27:27 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/9/2013 4:14:03 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 9/9/2013 2:24:57 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/4/2013 9:03:43 PM, s-anthony wrote:

There is no absence of God, even in atheist or other religionist with different gods. God wrote His Law on our hearts, all of man. Therefore, even if your atheist or pagan or whatever, you have that Law and can use it and follow it. God exist and the thing is, I do not have to prove it, He has proven Himself.

You're begging the question.

I am not begging anything.

You are. You cannot assume your conclusion in the premise -- not logically.

I haven't assumed, your assuming, I know and really so do you. My conclusion is completely logical. What is not logical is throwing away human reasoning for thousands of years all the way to the present and making up a whole different conclusion with no evidence for the your answers and saying the previous answers for over four thousand years are begging the question. No dear sir and modern philosophy, you are the one begging.
Polaris
Posts: 1,120
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9/9/2013 9:55:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/9/2013 9:09:20 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
I haven't assumed, your assuming, I know and really so do you.

If you know it, then demonstrate it logically or empirically. So far all I have seen is assertion. "I know it's true" is not an argument.

My conclusion is completely logical. What is not logical is throwing away human reasoning for thousands of years all the way to the present

Appeal to antiquity. The age of an idea isn't an indicator of it's veracity. Your argument is a logical fallacy.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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9/9/2013 10:47:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/9/2013 5:13:10 PM, Dogknox wrote:
You pointed out.. So, they were made in the image of God; but, they looked nothing like God.
I reply: How do you know?! God is spirit.

Because you said God is love then went on to say Adam and Eve were not loving. Does that which is unloving look like that which is loving?

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

You asked.. So, Adam and Eve were made perfect; however, they were not perfect. How do perfect people make mistakes?

I reply: They were perfect because they "Had Free Will"! Dogs, Cats, Pigs, Snails, Chicken etc can't love! They run on animal desires!
Man being above that of animals, can CHOSE to Give of himself from the heart or NOT!
The fact they can CHOOSE makes them perfect makes them in God' image.. They CAN Love or not love!

So, according to Christianity, all human beings from the very beginning until the end of time have free will. Does that mean we're all perfect?


You pointed out... IF... If Adam and Eve had perfect love, then, God would not have to make them love each other.
I reply YES you are right.. If they had Love they would not have been kicked out of heaven! But the fact remains: The perfect man did not love!

You ask.. How do you say in one breath:
"Adam did not LOVE Eve!
Adam did not protect Eve from the snake.. He did not need to know she was in trouble from the snake, he was told already by God not to eat!
Adam did not LOVE Eve or he would have stopped her from eating!"
Yet, in the next breath:
"Before they ate>>>> They had LOVE alone to rule their lives!"


I reply... You are mixed up...
I said.. They had the CHOICE to love or not to love! They had "free will".. meaning they could LOVE!
You can't have the ability to love without the right to chose!!

"Before they ate>>>> They had LOVE alone to rule their lives!"

So, in that sentence alone does not really mean alone? In reality, it means alone, yet, not alone. Ok. I get it; you're talking out of both sides of your mouth; the sooner I realize you don't mean that which you say, the sooner I'll understand you. Right?


s-anthony Think it out... IF...
s-anthony "If you will love me... I will pay you eighteen dollars!"
Would this be true love??! Can I buy your love?!
OR...
s-anthony or if.. You refuse to love me. I'll punch you square in the nose"!!
Would this be true love??! Can anyone FORCE you to love??! Could I lock you up in a cage and beat you every day until you decide to love me????!

God put the two together but he had to let them decide to love or not to love!!

Also.. clearly Adam did not love God...
Love of God is to do what he commands!
1 John 5:3
In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

s-anthony from the verse above "WHAT"..
What is love for God?!

Look... God commanded not to eat!!!
Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."

s-anthony No place can you read God telling the man "DO NOT TOUCH"!!!! God never said "Do NOT touch"!

But what do we read next..
Eve's words... Genesis 3:3 but God did say, "You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.""

Clearly is was Adam who COMMANDED Eve.. "Do NOT even touch the stinking tree"! Clearly Eve did not love Adam she did not do what he COMMANDED!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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9/9/2013 10:55:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 9:03:43 PM, s-anthony wrote:
I love how religionists say if God doesn't exist neither does good nor evil. As though God were the only reason, for the concept of right and wrong.


Well, right away you've confused ontology with epistemology. Typically, when the moral argument is made it's the claim that God, in some sense, ontologically grounds moral facts and there would be no moral facts if God existed. Almost no one who makes any sort of halfway decent moral argument makes the claim that one needs to believe in God in order to know or acquire the concepts of what is right and wrong.

In every society, even atheistic societies, good and evil exist. Yet, the definition of good and evil is defined by the culture in which one lives; and, the moral code is usually codified in sacred texts. So, societies considered pagan or heathen, whose god does not exist (at least, in the minds of opposing religions) have moral codes. Societies and cultures who have existed long before their enemies were even a gleam in the eye of humanity.

How did they acquire this knowledge of good and evil, when their gods were merely idols?

Furthermore, in saying one's sense of morality is based on the existence of God, are we to conclude, in the absence of God, he, or she, would relinquish all human civility and become murderous, raping, plunderers, whose appetite for carnage is insatiable? Is the fear of God or the desire to please God the only thing that keeps them from doing those things, now? If so, society needs to be protected from such bloodthirsty beasts. For, only the thought of some deity's watchful eye keeps them from global extermination.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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9/9/2013 10:56:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/9/2013 5:13:10 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 9/8/2013 10:00:16 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 9/8/2013 2:39:09 PM, Dogknox wrote:
s-anthony you asked.. Adam was created in the image of God; God is love, but Adam had no love.

What kind of sense does that make? If Adam were created in the image of God wouldn't that image be one of love?

Furthermore, didn't the writer of Romans say love fulfills the law? How were Adam and Eve perfect if they were without love?


I reply: They (Adam & Eve) were made In the Image!
Love must be given freely or it is NOT LOVE.. Thus free choice!
They had the ability to love or not to love, it was theirs alone to chose!
They made their choice... And it was not to love!
It was their decision ALONE that decided their fate!
There is ONLY Love allowed into heaven, they did not love so they were removed.. It is just this simple!

So, they were made in the image of God; but, they looked nothing like God.

You ask: Furthermore, didn't the writer of Romans say love fulfills the law? How were Adam and Eve perfect if they were without love?

I reply: Good question, think it through... Adam was made Perfect... Thus his sin was the most grave.. the perfect man made a choice to sin.. To disobey God! It was his sin that corrupted all of creation (including us)! God does everything perfect thus creation was perfect.. Perfect means man had to have the ability to chose, to have free will!

So, Adam and Eve were made perfect; however, they were not perfect. How do perfect people make mistakes?

s-anthony look at it this way... If God made Adam and Eve love each other, then their love would not be perfect love, it would be coerced (forced)!
God being the perfect God had to give us the freedom to chose to love or not to love!

If Adam and Eve had perfect love, then, God would not have to make them love each other.

Romans say love fulfills the law? YES and the LAW came AFTER the sin of Adam! There was NO law needed if they LOVED!! Eating of the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil" opened their eyes to law.. it was then they realized it is wrong to be naked!
Before they ate>>>> They had LOVE alone to rule their lives!
Jesus the second PERFECT man loved.. He obeyed his father he GAVE us his body totally out of love!

How do you say in one breath:

"Adam did not LOVE Eve!

Adam did not protect Eve from the snake.. He did not need to know she was in trouble from the snake, he was told already by God not to eat!

Adam did not LOVE Eve or he would have stopped her from eating!"

Yet, in the next breath:

"Before they ate>>>> They had LOVE alone to rule their lives!"

He gave us his body, his soul and his divinity! He willingly let go of his body, his life and his kingship becoming the lowest of the low all for "US"! He died sinless so he sprang out of the grave resurrected never ever, to die again! SO....
s-anthony so all peoples ADDED to Jesus' resurrected body will also never ever die!

Jesus loves us so much he gives Christians his body to be consumed total PERFECT GIVING OF SELF!!
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
&
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

You pointed out.. So, they were made in the image of God; but, they looked nothing like God.
I reply: How do you know?! God is spirit.
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

You asked.. So, Adam and Eve were made perfect; however, they were not perfect. How do perfect people make mistakes?

I reply: They were perfect because they "Had Free Will"! Dogs, Cats, Pigs, Snails, Chicken etc can't love! They run on animal desires!
Man being above that of animals, can CHOSE to Give of himself from the heart or NOT!
The fact they can CHOOSE makes them perfect makes them in God' image.. They CAN Love or not love!

A mother dog who cares for and protects her young doesn't love her pups?


You pointed out... IF... If Adam and Eve had perfect love, then, God would not have to make them love each other.
I reply YES you are right.. If they had Love they would not have been kicked out of heaven! But the fact remains: The perfect man did not love!

You ask.. How do you say in one breath:
"Adam did not LOVE Eve!
Adam did not protect Eve from the snake.. He did not need to know she was in trouble from the snake, he was told already by God not to eat!
Adam did not LOVE Eve or he would have stopped her from eating!"
Yet, in the next breath:
"Before they ate>>>> They had LOVE alone to rule their lives!"


I reply... You are mixed up...
I said.. They had the CHOICE to love or not to love! They had "free will".. meaning they could LOVE!
You can't have the ability to love without the right to chose!!

s-anthony Think it out... IF...
s-anthony "If you will love me... I will pay you eighteen dollars!"
Would this be true love??! Can I buy your love?!
OR...
s-anthony or if.. You refuse to love me. I'll punch you square in the nose"!!
Would this be true love??! Can anyone FORCE you to love??! Could I lock you up in a cage and beat you every day until you decide to love me????!

God put the two together but he had to let them decide to love or not to love!!

Also.. clearly Adam did not love God...
Love of God is to do what he commands!
1 John 5:3
In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

s-anthony from the verse above "WHAT"..
What is love for God?!

Look... God commanded not to eat!!!
Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."

s-anthony No place can you read God telling the man "DO NOT TOUCH"!!!! God never said "Do NOT touch"!

But what do we read next..
Eve's words... Genesis 3:3 but God did say, "You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.""

Clearly is was Adam who COMMANDED Eve.. "Do NOT even touch the stinking tree"! Clearly Eve did not love Adam she did not do what he COMMANDED!
bulproof
Posts: 25,227
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9/9/2013 11:07:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/9/2013 2:24:57 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/4/2013 9:03:43 PM, s-anthony wrote:

There is no absence of God, even in atheist or other religionist with different gods. God wrote His Law on our hearts, all of man. Therefore, even if your atheist or pagan or whatever, you have that Law and can use it and follow it. God exist and the thing is, I do not have to prove it, He has proven Himself.

SHOW this to be True and not merely unjustified speculation.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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9/10/2013 8:33:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/9/2013 10:55:12 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/4/2013 9:03:43 PM, s-anthony wrote:
I love how religionists say if God doesn't exist neither does good nor evil. As though God were the only reason, for the concept of right and wrong.


Well, right away you've confused ontology with epistemology. Typically, when the moral argument is made it's the claim that God, in some sense, ontologically grounds moral facts and there would be no moral facts if God existed. Almost no one who makes any sort of halfway decent moral argument makes the claim that one needs to believe in God in order to know or acquire the concepts of what is right and wrong.

First of all, I don't believe things exist apart from observation. There is no way to prove the existence of anything, outside the use of your faculties. Give me one example of a thing that exists outside of your knowledge of its existence.


In every society, even atheistic societies, good and evil exist. Yet, the definition of good and evil is defined by the culture in which one lives; and, the moral code is usually codified in sacred texts. So, societies considered pagan or heathen, whose god does not exist (at least, in the minds of opposing religions) have moral codes. Societies and cultures who have existed long before their enemies were even a gleam in the eye of humanity.

How did they acquire this knowledge of good and evil, when their gods were merely idols?

Furthermore, in saying one's sense of morality is based on the existence of God, are we to conclude, in the absence of God, he, or she, would relinquish all human civility and become murderous, raping, plunderers, whose appetite for carnage is insatiable? Is the fear of God or the desire to please God the only thing that keeps them from doing those things, now? If so, society needs to be protected from such bloodthirsty beasts. For, only the thought of some deity's watchful eye keeps them from global extermination.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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9/10/2013 9:12:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 8:33:07 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 9/9/2013 10:55:12 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/4/2013 9:03:43 PM, s-anthony wrote:
I love how religionists say if God doesn't exist neither does good nor evil. As though God were the only reason, for the concept of right and wrong.


Well, right away you've confused ontology with epistemology. Typically, when the moral argument is made it's the claim that God, in some sense, ontologically grounds moral facts and there would be no moral facts if God existed. Almost no one who makes any sort of halfway decent moral argument makes the claim that one needs to believe in God in order to know or acquire the concepts of what is right and wrong.

First of all, I don't believe things exist apart from observation. There is no way to prove the existence of anything, outside the use of your faculties. Give me one example of a thing that exists outside of your knowledge of its existence.


What does that have to do with you making a basic conceptual confusion?


In every society, even atheistic societies, good and evil exist. Yet, the definition of good and evil is defined by the culture in which one lives; and, the moral code is usually codified in sacred texts. So, societies considered pagan or heathen, whose god does not exist (at least, in the minds of opposing religions) have moral codes. Societies and cultures who have existed long before their enemies were even a gleam in the eye of humanity.

How did they acquire this knowledge of good and evil, when their gods were merely idols?

Furthermore, in saying one's sense of morality is based on the existence of God, are we to conclude, in the absence of God, he, or she, would relinquish all human civility and become murderous, raping, plunderers, whose appetite for carnage is insatiable? Is the fear of God or the desire to please God the only thing that keeps them from doing those things, now? If so, society needs to be protected from such bloodthirsty beasts. For, only the thought of some deity's watchful eye keeps them from global extermination.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Dogknox
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9/10/2013 9:13:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I had said: How do you know?! God is spirit.

Your reply was... Because you said God is love then went on to say Adam and Eve were not loving. Does that which is unloving look like that which is loving?
s-anthony .. Think it out...Does a murderer look different then you or me.. NO! All who love look like God! Giving from the heart is "God like"!

You asked.. So, according to Christianity, all human beings from the very beginning until the end of time have free will. Does that mean we're all perfect?

I reply. God does everything perfect! Adam was made without any sin! You and I are born into a corrupted world "Imperfect" a world with death always present! In a perfect world men live forever!
The "Free Will" gives man the ability to love or not to love! LOVE: The act of GIVING from the heart!

I had said.. "Before they ate>>>> They had LOVE alone to rule their lives!"

Your reply: So, in that sentence alone does not really mean alone? In reality, it means alone, yet, not alone. Ok. I get it; you're talking out of both sides of your mouth; the sooner I realize you don't mean that which you say, the sooner I'll understand you. Right?


ALONE: Nothing else, no other rules or laws to govern them!
Scriptures tell you.. The greatest of all laws is LOVE! Love God and neighbor with all your heart, mind and strength!
With LOVE all actions are done without expecting reward or payment.. Love GIVES! The Sheep are judged righteous and go to heaven because they LOVE!!
37 "Then the righteous will answer him, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?

The Goats go to eternal fire because they do not GIVE!
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink

You asked.. A mother dog who cares for and protects her young doesn't love her pups?
I reply: The dogs life is all animal instinct. A rat guards her young so does a chicken!! They can't LOVE!
The actions of care and protect by the dog, are all the nature of the beast!
They also cannot make Free Choice to HATE; Only man can Love and also Hate!

s-anthony Adam the First PERFECT Man decided "FREELY" not to love!
Jesus the Second PERFECT Man decided "FREELY" to give of himself completely!
LOOK..
John 10:17
The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life"only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."
AeneasPhebe
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9/10/2013 2:31:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/9/2013 11:07:45 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/9/2013 2:24:57 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/4/2013 9:03:43 PM, s-anthony wrote:

There is no absence of God, even in atheist or other religionist with different gods. God wrote His Law on our hearts, all of man. Therefore, even if your atheist or pagan or whatever, you have that Law and can use it and follow it. God exist and the thing is, I do not have to prove it, He has proven Himself.

SHOW this to be True and not merely unjustified speculation.

Show it is not true and by rejecting it is not unjustified rejection.
AeneasPhebe
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9/10/2013 2:36:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/9/2013 9:55:44 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 9/9/2013 9:09:20 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
I haven't assumed, your assuming, I know and really so do you.

If you know it, then demonstrate it logically or empirically. So far all I have seen is assertion. "I know it's true" is not an argument.

Ok, The universe and creation exist. There, it is proven. If not, then explain how the universe and creation is therefore existent.

My conclusion is completely logical. What is not logical is throwing away human reasoning for thousands of years all the way to the present

Appeal to antiquity. The age of an idea isn't an indicator of it's veracity. Your argument is a logical fallacy.

Very true, though in this case it is not. That idea from antiquity still holds and answers the difficult questions but the recent ideas and theories do not come close to offering the same answers. Just because you reject it and refuse to give it credence does not make it any less valuable and true.
Polaris
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9/10/2013 2:58:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 2:36:33 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
Ok, The universe and creation exist. There, it is proven. If not, then explain how the universe and creation is therefore existent.

The universe exists, yes, that much is beyond dispute. Whether it was created, or eternal remains to be seen. If you believe the universe was created, then show us how you came to this conclusion.

Very true, though in this case it is not.

An argument is either valid or it is not. If an argument sometimes comes to false conclusions, then it is an invalid argument.

That idea from antiquity still holds and answers the difficult questions but the recent ideas and theories do not come close to offering the same answers. Just because you reject it and refuse to give it credence does not make it any less valuable and true.

And why do you believe the answers offered are true?