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What actually is God's Kingdom?

MadCornishBiker
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9/10/2013 7:05:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I make no apology for copying and pasting teh bulkk of this material from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society publication "Reasoning from the criptures". I was planning on doing "my own version" but I can't improve on whatr they have done here, so here goes,

http://wol.jw.org...

Does the Bible actually speak of God"s Kingdom as being a government?

Isa. 9:6, 7, RS: "To us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government [also KJ, AT, Dy; "dominion," JB, NE; "princely rule," NW] will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end."

Who are the rulers in the Kingdom?

Rev. 15:3: "Great and wonderful are your works, Jehovah God, the Almighty. Righteous and true are your ways, King of eternity."
Dan. 7:13, 14: "With the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man [Jesus Christ; see Mark 14:61, 62] happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days [Jehovah God] he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him [to Jesus Christ] there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him."
Rev. 5:9, 10: "You [Jesus Christ] were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth." (At Revelation 14:1-3 these "bought from the earth" to be rulers with the Lamb on heavenly Mount Zion are said to number 144,000.)

What effect will this Kingdom have on human governments?

Dan. 2:44: "In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite."
Ps. 2:8, 9: "Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance and the ends of the earth as your own possession. You will break them with an iron scepter, as though a potter"s vessel you will dash them to pieces."

What will God"s Kingdom accomplish?

Sanctify Jehovah"s name and uphold his sovereignty

Matt. 6:9, 10: "You must pray, then, this way: "Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come.""
Ezek. 38:23: "I shall certainly magnify myself and sanctify myself and make myself known before the eyes of many nations; and they will have to know that I am Jehovah."

Put an end to Satan"s tolerated rulership over the world

Rev. 20:2, 3: "He [the heavenly King, Jesus Christ] seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, that he might not mislead the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After these things he must be let loose for a little while."

Unify all creation in worship of the one true God

Rev. 5:13; 15:3, 4: "And every creature that is in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, I heard saying: "To the One sitting on the throne [Jehovah God] and to the Lamb [Jesus Christ] be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever."" "Great and wonderful are your works, Jehovah God, the Almighty. Righteous and true are your ways, King of eternity. Who will not really fear you, Jehovah, and glorify your name, because you alone are loyal? For all the nations will come and worship before you, because your righteous decrees have been made manifest."

Bring mankind back into harmonious relationship with God

Rom. 8:19-21: "The eager expectation of the creation [humankind] is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God [the evidence that those raised to heavenly life with Jesus Christ have gone into action as rulers]. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself [mankind in general] also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God."

Free mankind from all threat of war

Ps. 46:8, 9: "Come, you people, behold the activities of Jehovah, how he has set astonishing events on the earth. He is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth."
Isa. 2:4: "They will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore."

Rid the earth of corrupt rulers and oppression

Ps. 110:5: "Jehovah himself at your right hand will certainly break kings to pieces on the day of his anger."
Ps. 72:12-14: "He [Jehovah"s Messianic King] will deliver the poor one crying for help, also the afflicted one and whoever has no helper. He will feel sorry for the lowly one and the poor one, and the souls of the poor ones he will save. From oppression and from violence he will redeem their soul, and their blood will be precious in his eyes."

Provide an abundance of food for all mankind

Ps. 72:16: "There will come to be plenty of grain on the earth; on the top of the mountains there will be an overflow."
Isa. 25:6: "Jehovah of armies will certainly make for all the peoples, in this mountain [in heavenly Mount Zion, the seat of God"s Kingdom, provision for its earthly subjects will be made], a banquet of well-oiled dishes, a banquet of wine kept on the dregs, of well-oiled dishes filled with marrow, of wine kept on the dregs, filtered."
Remove sickness and disabilities of all kinds
Luke 7:22; 9:11: "Go your way, report to John what you saw and heard: the blind are receiving sight, the lame are walking, the lepers are being cleansed and the deaf are hearing, the dead are being raised up, the poor are being told the good news." "He [Jesus Christ] received them kindly and began to speak to them about the kingdom of God, and he healed those needing a cure."

Provide suitable homes for everyone

Isa. 65:21, 22: "They will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat their fruitage. They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating."
Assure satisfying employment for all
Isa. 65:23: "They will not toil for nothing, nor will they bring to birth for disturbance; because they are the offspring made up of the blessed ones of Jehovah, and their descendants with them."

Despite trimming out the Watrchtower Bible and Tract Societies comments, to save Characters, I have still run out, so, as they say, "contiuned in next post".
MadCornishBiker
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9/10/2013 7:09:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Guarantee security, freedom from danger to one"s person or property

Mic. 4:4: "They will actually sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree, and there will be no one making them tremble; for the very mouth of Jehovah of armies has spoken it."
Ps. 37:10, 11: "Just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; and you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."

Cause righteousness and justice to prevail

2 Pet. 3:13: "There are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell."
Isa. 11:3-5: "He [the Messianic King] will not judge by any mere appearance to his eyes, nor reprove simply according to the thing heard by his ears. And with righteousness he must judge the lowly ones, and with uprightness he must give reproof in behalf of the meek ones of the earth. . . . And righteousness must prove to be the belt of his hips, and faithfulness the belt of his loins."

Safeguard mankind from any injury due to natural forces

Mark 4:37-41: "Now a great violent windstorm broke out, and the waves kept dashing into the boat, so that the boat was close to being swamped. . . . With that he [Jesus] roused himself and rebuked the wind and said to the sea: "Hush! Be quiet!" And the wind abated, and a great calm set in. . . . But they felt an unusual fear, and they would say to one another: "Who really is this, because even the wind and the sea obey him?""

Resurrect the dead

John 5:28, 29: "Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice [the voice of Christ the King] and come out."
Rev. 20:12: "I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds [those done following their resurrection; compare Romans 6:7]."
Remove all death due to inheritance of Adamic sin
Isa. 25:8: "He will actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will certainly wipe the tears from all faces."
Rev. 21:4: "He will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away."

Provide a world in which people genuinely love one another

John 13:35: "By this all will know that you are my disciples [hence, in line to be Jesus" associates in the heavenly Kingdom or earthly subjects of that Kingdom], if you have love among yourselves."

Bring animals and humans into harmonious relationship with one another

Isa. 11:6-9: "The wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand. They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain." (Also Isaiah 65:25)
Hos. 2:18: "For them I shall certainly conclude a covenant in that day in connection with the wild beast of the field and with the flying creature of the heavens and the creeping thing of the ground, . . . and I will make them lie down in security."

Make the earth a paradise

Luke 23:43: "Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise."
Ps. 98:7-9: "Let the sea thunder and that which fills it, the productive land and those dwelling in it. Let the rivers themselves clap their hands; all together let the very mountains cry out joyfully before Jehovah, for he has come to judge the earth. He will judge the productive land with righteousness and the peoples with uprightness."
Compare Genesis 1:28; 2:15; Isaiah 55:11.

When was God"s Kingdom to begin to rule?

Was it in the first century?

Col. 1:1, 2, 13: "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through God"s will, and Timothy our brother to the holy ones [those who were heirs of the heavenly Kingdom] . . . He [God] delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us [the holy ones, members of the Christian congregation] into the kingdom of the Son of his love."
1 Cor. 4:8: "You men already have your fill, do you? You are rich already, are you? You have begun ruling as kings without us, have you? And I wish indeed that you had begun ruling as kings, that we also might rule with you as kings."

Rev. 12:10, 12: "Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time."

Must the coming to power of God"s Kingdom await the conversion of the world?

Ps. 110:1, 2: "The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord [Jesus Christ] is: "Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet." The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, saying: "Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.""
Matt. 25:31-46: "When the Son of man [Jesus Christ] arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. . . . And these [who showed no love for his anointed brothers] will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life."

If you want to see the comments I cut out then please go to http://wol.jw.org...

@Anna: OK lets see you deny this lot like you usually do when anything disagrees with you.
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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9/10/2013 10:32:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
MCB: "I make no apology for copying and pasting the bulk of this material from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society publication"

Anna: You should. They have everything wrong. Everything. It is rare to see a person misapply prophesy so badly.

MadCornish asks, "Who are the rulers in the Kingdom?"

One of the passages he cites is Daniel 7, although I'm quite sure he ran to his NWT - even after making "every effort" not to employ it.

"I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."

Who is given dominion and glory and a kingdom? Jesus Christ - "one like unto a son of man"

MadCornish, you are citing the passage to somehow answer the question "Who are the rulers in this kingdom."

When? When He returns to heaven ... when He "came even to" the Ancient of Days (the Father)

When did this happen? At the ascension:

"And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they were looking stedfastly into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven."

THAT is when "there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days" - and that's when the kingdom was established. Yet you say He didn't have it.

Jesus Christ came with the clouds of heaven - at the ascension
Jesus Christ came even to the ancient of days - at the ascension
Jesus Christ was brought him near before the Father - after the ascension
What happened then?
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom - when? Right after He was seated at the right hand of the Father.

That's just one example of misapplied prophesies. All of the rest are equally misapplied. The WatchTower evaluation is materialistic, as I've said.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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9/10/2013 11:12:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 7:05:09 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
I make no apology for copying and pasting teh bulkk of this material from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society publication "Reasoning from the criptures". I was planning on doing "my own version" but I can't improve on whatr they have done here, so here goes,

Despite trimming out the Watrchtower Bible and Tract Societies comments, to save Characters, I have still run out, so, as they say, "contiuned in next post".

You Christians still don't have any idea what the invisible Kingdom of God is, do you?

The Kingdom of God is God's creation spoken into existence through His invisible Word as invisible wavelengths of energy.

The visible world that gives us the appearance of flesh and the things we see, smell, taste and touch is processed wavelengths of energy by the brains of each living "being" that God created as also wavelengths of energy.

A wavelength of energy ( what I like to call wavebit of energy ) is a bit of information so we exist in the Heavenly Kingdom as information, ready to be experienced as life in the visible world.

If you don't believe in the Word of God ( Kingdom of God ) where all God's creation exists, then you don't have any idea who our Creator is and what His eternal plan is for us.

I Colossians 1:
15: He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; ( "He" is the invisible "Kingdom of God", also known as "the Word" and "Christ" and "Holy Spirit" and "Son of God" and "Light" and "Zion" and "Jacob" and "Counselor" and "Eternal Life" and "Breath of Life" and "Book of Life" and "Kingdom of Heaven" and "God's Glory" and "the Church" and several other biblical names that mean the same thing, the energy of God without deception "Lucifer and the beast" )
16: for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities " all things were created through him and for him.
17: He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
18: He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent.
19: For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell,

This isn't about a man named "Jesus", which is only the visible flesh formed from the invisible Creation of our invisible Lord and Savior as an illusion.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/10/2013 12:41:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 10:32:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "I make no apology for copying and pasting the bulk of this material from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society publication"

Anna: You should. They have everything wrong. Everything. It is rare to see a person misapply prophesy so badly.

No Anna it is you who has it so wrong asn scripture proves it.


MadCornish asks, "Who are the rulers in the Kingdom?"

One of the passages he cites is Daniel 7, although I'm quite sure he ran to his NWT - even after making "every effort" not to employ it.

Where in that post did I say that?

I did say I had copied and pasted the whole post, apart from my comments at the and and the beginning obviously, from, teh Reasoning for the scriptures" book, lol, and it will be obvious to any who read it that the main passages are from the NWT with alternative translations provided after in some cases.

The fact that you have not realised this just shows how little notice you have actually taken of what the posts said, and yet you still criticise it, lol.

That says a lot in itself.

"I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."

Who is given dominion and glory and a kingdom? Jesus Christ - "one like unto a son of man"

MadCornish, you are citing the passage to somehow answer the question "Who are the rulers in this kingdom."

When? When He returns to heaven ... when He "came even to" the Ancient of Days (the Father)

When did this happen? At the ascension:

"And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they were looking stedfastly into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven."

THAT is when "there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days" - and that's when the kingdom was established. Yet you say He didn't have it.

Jesus Christ came with the clouds of heaven - at the ascension
Jesus Christ came even to the ancient of days - at the ascension
Jesus Christ was brought him near before the Father - after the ascension
What happened then?
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom - when? Right after He was seated at the right hand of the Father.

That's just one example of misapplied prophesies. All of the rest are equally misapplied. The WatchTower evaluation is materialistic, as I've said.

I wish I could say that I had never come across anyone who so twists the understanding of scripture as you but, as Jesus foretold it would be, the majority do.

How does it feel to be fulfilling prophecy as you do? I said you would deny scripture didn't I. Every single one of those scriptures is applied in scripture to the kingdom when established, and nothing you can say in your Apostate bluster will ever change that.

As usual it is a case of Anna's right and God is wrong!
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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9/10/2013 2:45:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Anna: MadCornish asks, "Who are the rulers in the Kingdom?" One of the passages he cites is Daniel 7, although I'm quite sure he ran to his NWT - even after making "every effort" not to employ it.

MCB: Where in that post did I say that?

Anna: RIGHT HERE - copied and pasted verbatim:

"Who are the rulers in the Kingdom?

Rev. 15:3: "Great and wonderful are your works, Jehovah God, the Almighty. Righteous and true are your ways, King of eternity."
Dan. 7:13, 14: "With the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man [Jesus Christ; see Mark 14:61, 62] happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days [Jehovah God] he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him [to Jesus Christ] there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him."
Rev. 5:9, 10: "You [Jesus Christ] were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth." (At Revelation 14:1-3 these "bought from the earth" to be rulers with the Lamb on heavenly Mount Zion are said to number 144,000.)

Anna: Don't you see that? I didn't alter anything. And what did I say about it? I said: (again, quoted - copied and pasted)

"MadCornish asks, "Who are the rulers in the Kingdom?" One of the passages he cites is Daniel 7" That's exactly what your post says. Whether you copied and pasted it or not, you are in consent with it.

*****

Anna: ""I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."

Who is given dominion and glory and a kingdom? Jesus Christ - "one like unto a son of man"

MadCornish, you are citing the passage to somehow answer the question "Who are the rulers in this kingdom."

When? When He returns to heaven ... when He "came even to" the Ancient of Days (the Father)

When did this happen? At the ascension:

"And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they were looking stedfastly into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven."

THAT is when "there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days" - and that's when the kingdom was established. Yet you say He didn't have it.

Jesus Christ came with the clouds of heaven - at the ascension
Jesus Christ came even to the ancient of days - at the ascension
Jesus Christ was brought him near before the Father - after the ascension
What happened then?
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom - when? Right after He was seated at the right hand of the Father.

That's just one example of misapplied prophesies. All of the rest are equally misapplied. The WatchTower evaluation is materialistic, as I've said.

*****

MCB: "I wish I could say that I had never come across anyone who so twists the understanding of scripture as you but, as Jesus foretold it would be, the majority do."

Anna: That's his answer. I twisted it. I said Jesus Christ was foretold to come to the Father in the clouds, be "brought near" to Him, and given a kingdom. That's precisely what the passage states:

"there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom"

You can't even see THAT? Apparently not, because you call it "twisting". Did anyone see MadCornish actually refute anything? I didn't. He doesn't LIKE it, and he WHINES about it - but he sure didn't REFUTE it.

Do tell: give us the WatchTower version of it. Tell us how it hasn't even happened yet.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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9/10/2013 2:48:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
MCB: "@Anna: OK lets see you deny this lot like you usually do when anything disagrees with you."

Anna: I deny 90% of it. That's nothing but typically misapplied WatchTower propaganda - and as usual, they concentrate upon literalizing the apocalyptic language or Daniel and Revelation. Always.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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9/10/2013 4:22:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 12:41:45 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/10/2013 10:32:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "I make no apology for copying and pasting the bulk of this material from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society publication"

Anna: You should. They have everything wrong. Everything. It is rare to see a person misapply prophesy so badly.

No Anna it is you who has it so wrong asn scripture proves it.


MadCornish asks, "Who are the rulers in the Kingdom?"

One of the passages he cites is Daniel 7, although I'm quite sure he ran to his NWT - even after making "every effort" not to employ it.

Where in that post did I say that?

I did say I had copied and pasted the whole post, apart from my comments at the and and the beginning obviously, from, teh Reasoning for the scriptures" book, lol, and it will be obvious to any who read it that the main passages are from the NWT with alternative translations provided after in some cases.

The fact that you have not realised this just shows how little notice you have actually taken of what the posts said, and yet you still criticise it, lol.

That says a lot in itself.

"I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."

Who is given dominion and glory and a kingdom? Jesus Christ - "one like unto a son of man"

MadCornish, you are citing the passage to somehow answer the question "Who are the rulers in this kingdom."

When? When He returns to heaven ... when He "came even to" the Ancient of Days (the Father)

When did this happen? At the ascension:

"And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they were looking stedfastly into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven."

THAT is when "there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days" - and that's when the kingdom was established. Yet you say He didn't have it.

Jesus Christ came with the clouds of heaven - at the ascension
Jesus Christ came even to the ancient of days - at the ascension
Jesus Christ was brought him near before the Father - after the ascension
What happened then?
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom - when? Right after He was seated at the right hand of the Father.

That's just one example of misapplied prophesies. All of the rest are equally misapplied. The WatchTower evaluation is materialistic, as I've said.

I wish I could say that I had never come across anyone who so twists the understanding of scripture as you but, as Jesus foretold it would be, the majority do.

How does it feel to be fulfilling prophecy as you do? I said you would deny scripture didn't I. Every single one of those scriptures is applied in scripture to the kingdom when established, and nothing you can say in your Apostate bluster will ever change that.

As usual it is a case of Anna's right and God is wrong!

The new testament was written by heathen Roman religious leaders who had no idea who our Creator was. They stole the writings from the true saints after they killed them and used a few of their ideas to mix with all their religious ideas to make sure their Christians would never become true saints.

Every sinner who reads the new testament without the knowledge of God that us saints possess will be deceived by the religious lies added to it. You CANNOT find the Truth by reading the new testament or the prophecies in the old testament. You have to have the knowledge of God ( Christ ) and God putting the words in your mind to write and speak to learn what the hidden knowledge is about before you can interpret the prophecies.

You are a sinner who has no authority to use any writings of the prophets and saints.
MadCornishBiker
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9/10/2013 4:24:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 2:48:39 PM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "@Anna: OK lets see you deny this lot like you usually do when anything disagrees with you."

Anna: I deny 90% of it. That's nothing but typically misapplied WatchTower propaganda - and as usual, they concentrate upon literalizing the apocalyptic language or Daniel and Revelation. Always.

Of course you do, you deny anything scriptural that doesn't fit your desired picture.

Fortunately some of us started out without a preferred picture, just a blank canvas for God to paint on.
MadCornishBiker
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9/10/2013 4:34:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 2:45:54 PM, annanicole wrote:
Anna: MadCornish asks, "Who are the rulers in the Kingdom?" One of the passages he cites is Daniel 7, although I'm quite sure he ran to his NWT - even after making "every effort" not to employ it.

MCB: Where in that post did I say that?

Anna: RIGHT HERE - copied and pasted verbatim:

"Who are the rulers in the Kingdom?

Rev. 15:3: "Great and wonderful are your works, Jehovah God, the Almighty. Righteous and true are your ways, King of eternity."
Dan. 7:13, 14: "With the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man [Jesus Christ; see Mark 14:61, 62] happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days [Jehovah God] he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him [to Jesus Christ] there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him."
Rev. 5:9, 10: "You [Jesus Christ] were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth." (At Revelation 14:1-3 these "bought from the earth" to be rulers with the Lamb on heavenly Mount Zion are said to number 144,000.)

Anna: Don't you see that? I didn't alter anything. And what did I say about it? I said: (again, quoted - copied and pasted)

You said I has claimed I would make every effort to avoid using the NWT, I asked where in that post I had said that, your reply is irrelevant to my question, lol.

"MadCornish asks, "Who are the rulers in the Kingdom?" One of the passages he cites is Daniel 7" That's exactly what your post says. Whether you copied and pasted it or not, you are in consent with it.

Yes I am completely in consent with anything in scripture, it is you who isn't.


*****

Anna: ""I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."

Who is given dominion and glory and a kingdom? Jesus Christ - "one like unto a son of man"

But does that say when he was to be allowed to exercise them? No


MadCornish, you are citing the passage to somehow answer the question "Who are the rulers in this kingdom."

When? When He returns to heaven ... when He "came even to" the Ancient of Days (the Father)

But not given the permission to exercise as later scripture say, until his enemies are laid at his feet,. That won't completely happen until all earths Governments are destroyed.


When did this happen? At the ascension:

"And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they were looking stedfastly into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven."

THAT is when "there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days" - and that's when the kingdom was established. Yet you say He didn't have it.

Jesus Christ came with the clouds of heaven - at the ascension
Jesus Christ came even to the ancient of days - at the ascension
Jesus Christ was brought him near before the Father - after the ascension
What happened then?
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom - when? Right after He was seated at the right hand of the Father.

Again, but not yet permission to exercise them, until his enemies were put beneath his feet.


That's just one example of misapplied prophesies. All of the rest are equally misapplied. The WatchTower evaluation is materialistic, as I've said.

*****

MCB: "I wish I could say that I had never come across anyone who so twists the understanding of scripture as you but, as Jesus foretold it would be, the majority do."

Anna: That's his answer. I twisted it. I said Jesus Christ was foretold to come to the Father in the clouds, be "brought near" to Him, and given a kingdom. That's precisely what the passage states:

"there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom"

You can't even see THAT? Apparently not, because you call it "twisting". Did anyone see MadCornish actually refute anything? I didn't. He doesn't LIKE it, and he WHINES about it - but he sure didn't REFUTE it.

Do tell: give us the WatchTower version of it. Tell us how it hasn't even happened yet.

I don;t need to give you any watchtower version, the scriptural one is mroe than enough for me.

How has it not happeened yet?

We still have human Governments.
We do not have peace for all.
We do not have food for all.
People still die.
Animals are still at enmity with man and each other.

All these and more are what the kingdom brings with it according to scripture. Until they have all been fulfilled the kingdom cannot be said to be fully here.

I would have thought that would be patently obvious to even the simplest of minds. If the benefits it brings aren't here, it isn't here.
bornofgod
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9/10/2013 4:55:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 4:34:44 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/10/2013 2:45:54 PM, annanicole wrote:
Anna: MadCornish asks, "Who are the rulers in the Kingdom?" One of the passages he cites is Daniel 7, although I'm quite sure he ran to his NWT - even after making "every effort" not to employ it.

MCB: Where in that post did I say that?

Anna: RIGHT HERE - copied and pasted verbatim:

"Who are the rulers in the Kingdom?

Rev. 15:3: "Great and wonderful are your works, Jehovah God, the Almighty. Righteous and true are your ways, King of eternity."
Dan. 7:13, 14: "With the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man [Jesus Christ; see Mark 14:61, 62] happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days [Jehovah God] he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him [to Jesus Christ] there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him."
Rev. 5:9, 10: "You [Jesus Christ] were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth." (At Revelation 14:1-3 these "bought from the earth" to be rulers with the Lamb on heavenly Mount Zion are said to number 144,000.)

Anna: Don't you see that? I didn't alter anything. And what did I say about it? I said: (again, quoted - copied and pasted)

You said I has claimed I would make every effort to avoid using the NWT, I asked where in that post I had said that, your reply is irrelevant to my question, lol.

"MadCornish asks, "Who are the rulers in the Kingdom?" One of the passages he cites is Daniel 7" That's exactly what your post says. Whether you copied and pasted it or not, you are in consent with it.

Yes I am completely in consent with anything in scripture, it is you who isn't.


*****

Anna: ""I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."

Who is given dominion and glory and a kingdom? Jesus Christ - "one like unto a son of man"

But does that say when he was to be allowed to exercise them? No



MadCornish, you are citing the passage to somehow answer the question "Who are the rulers in this kingdom."

When? When He returns to heaven ... when He "came even to" the Ancient of Days (the Father)

But not given the permission to exercise as later scripture say, until his enemies are laid at his feet,. That won't completely happen until all earths Governments are destroyed.


When did this happen? At the ascension:

"And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they were looking stedfastly into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven."

THAT is when "there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days" - and that's when the kingdom was established. Yet you say He didn't have it.

Jesus Christ came with the clouds of heaven - at the ascension
Jesus Christ came even to the ancient of days - at the ascension
Jesus Christ was brought him near before the Father - after the ascension
What happened then?
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom - when? Right after He was seated at the right hand of the Father.

Again, but not yet permission to exercise them, until his enemies were put beneath his feet.



That's just one example of misapplied prophesies. All of the rest are equally misapplied. The WatchTower evaluation is materialistic, as I've said.

*****

MCB: "I wish I could say that I had never come across anyone who so twists the understanding of scripture as you but, as Jesus foretold it would be, the majority do."

Anna: That's his answer. I twisted it. I said Jesus Christ was foretold to come to the Father in the clouds, be "brought near" to Him, and given a kingdom. That's precisely what the passage states:

"there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom"

You can't even see THAT? Apparently not, because you call it "twisting". Did anyone see MadCornish actually refute anything? I didn't. He doesn't LIKE it, and he WHINES about it - but he sure didn't REFUTE it.

Do tell: give us the WatchTower version of it. Tell us how it hasn't even happened yet.

I don;t need to give you any watchtower version, the scriptural one is mroe than enough for me.

How has it not happeened yet?

We still have human Governments.
We do not have peace for all.
We do not have food for all.
People still die.
Animals are still at enmity with man and each other.

All these and more are what the kingdom brings with it according to scripture. Until they have all been fulfilled the kingdom cannot be said to be fully here.

I would have thought that would be patently obvious to even the simplest of minds. If the benefits it brings aren't here, it isn't here.

The Kingdom of God is near everyone in this forum but since it's invisible, it's very difficult to believe in it. The religious Jews couldn't see it either when it was presented to them through the mouths of all the saints.
annanicole
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9/10/2013 5:02:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
MCB: "Does the Bible actually speak of God"s Kingdom as being a government?

Isa. 9:6, 7, RS: "To us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government [also KJ, AT, Dy; "dominion," JB, NE; "princely rule," NW] will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end."

Anna: That passage actually speaks of the then-coming kingdom of Jesus Christ. I'd make that clear. It is not speaking of the Father's kingdom: it is speaking of the kingdom that will be turned back over to the Father at the last day.

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this."

Of course, you do not think that Jesus was the "everlasting Father" in the first place. Nonetheless ......

Nobody that I know of ever denied that the kingdom of Jesus Christ could very properly be called a "government". So what? It is a theocracy - and Jesus is the head of it - in which Jesus Christ rules from heaven through His word. The same organization is also called:

"the body of Christ"
"the church of God"
"the vineyard of the Lord"

The term that one used or uses simply expresses whatever feature of the organization one wishes to emphasize. It amazes me that anyone would say, "Oh, the body of Christ is not fully established" or "Wait, the vineyard of the Lord is not fully present."

*****

In the majority of the rest of the post, figurative events in Revelation are literalized to suit the event. It is hard to follow the post because, well, for one thing, it never cites the Bible. It would help if the post actually made a statement, then backed it up with scripture. But, no - they won't do that.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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9/10/2013 5:07:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 5:02:10 PM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "Does the Bible actually speak of God"s Kingdom as being a government?

Isa. 9:6, 7, RS: "To us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government [also KJ, AT, Dy; "dominion," JB, NE; "princely rule," NW] will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end."

Anna: That passage actually speaks of the then-coming kingdom of Jesus Christ. I'd make that clear. It is not speaking of the Father's kingdom: it is speaking of the kingdom that will be turned back over to the Father at the last day.

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this."

Of course, you do not think that Jesus was the "everlasting Father" in the first place. Nonetheless ......

Nobody that I know of ever denied that the kingdom of Jesus Christ could very properly be called a "government". So what? It is a theocracy - and Jesus is the head of it - in which Jesus Christ rules from heaven through His word. The same organization is also called:

"the body of Christ"
"the church of God"
"the vineyard of the Lord"

The term that one used or uses simply expresses whatever feature of the organization one wishes to emphasize. It amazes me that anyone would say, "Oh, the body of Christ is not fully established" or "Wait, the vineyard of the Lord is not fully present."

*****

In the majority of the rest of the post, figurative events in Revelation are literalized to suit the event. It is hard to follow the post because, well, for one thing, it never cites the Bible. It would help if the post actually made a statement, then backed it up with scripture. But, no - they won't do that.

You sinners have no idea what the prophecies are about because you have no knowledge of God to understand them with. Your greedy flesh steals the words from God to use for your own selfish purpose to exalt yourself instead of speaking for our Creator.
MadCornishBiker
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9/10/2013 5:18:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 5:02:10 PM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "Does the Bible actually speak of God"s Kingdom as being a government?

Isa. 9:6, 7, RS: "To us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government [also KJ, AT, Dy; "dominion," JB, NE; "princely rule," NW] will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end."

Anna: That passage actually speaks of the then-coming kingdom of Jesus Christ. I'd make that clear. It is not speaking of the Father's kingdom: it is speaking of the kingdom that will be turned back over to the Father at the last day.

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this."

Of course, you do not think that Jesus was the "everlasting Father" in the first place. Nonetheless ......

Nobody that I know of ever denied that the kingdom of Jesus Christ could very properly be called a "government". So what? It is a theocracy - and Jesus is the head of it - in which Jesus Christ rules from heaven through His word. The same organization is also called:

"the body of Christ"
"the church of God"
"the vineyard of the Lord"

The term that one used or uses simply expresses whatever feature of the organization one wishes to emphasize. It amazes me that anyone would say, "Oh, the body of Christ is not fully established" or "Wait, the vineyard of the Lord is not fully present."

*****

In the majority of the rest of the post, figurative events in Revelation are literalized to suit the event. It is hard to follow the post because, well, for one thing, it never cites the Bible. It would help if the post actually made a statement, then backed it up with scripture. But, no - they won't do that.

There is only the one kingdom, that is why he hands it back to his father at the end of the 1,000 years, because it is God's kingdom with Christ as it;s ruler until God can deal directly with us again.

There is only, was ever only, and will ever be only one Kingdom. Why on earth, or in heaven, would there be two? That's just ridiculous. Everything belongs to God in the end.

The OP in it's two parts not only cites, but quotes the bible, nothing more is needed.
MadCornishBiker
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9/10/2013 5:20:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 4:50:31 PM, stubs wrote:
Yeah OP was too long for me to care haha

Your choice, your problem.

Attention Deficit Syndrome?

Or just a lack of interest in truth?
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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9/10/2013 5:23:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 5:18:24 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:02:10 PM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "Does the Bible actually speak of God"s Kingdom as being a government?

Isa. 9:6, 7, RS: "To us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government [also KJ, AT, Dy; "dominion," JB, NE; "princely rule," NW] will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end."

Anna: That passage actually speaks of the then-coming kingdom of Jesus Christ. I'd make that clear. It is not speaking of the Father's kingdom: it is speaking of the kingdom that will be turned back over to the Father at the last day.

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this."

Of course, you do not think that Jesus was the "everlasting Father" in the first place. Nonetheless ......

Nobody that I know of ever denied that the kingdom of Jesus Christ could very properly be called a "government". So what? It is a theocracy - and Jesus is the head of it - in which Jesus Christ rules from heaven through His word. The same organization is also called:

"the body of Christ"
"the church of God"
"the vineyard of the Lord"

The term that one used or uses simply expresses whatever feature of the organization one wishes to emphasize. It amazes me that anyone would say, "Oh, the body of Christ is not fully established" or "Wait, the vineyard of the Lord is not fully present."

*****

In the majority of the rest of the post, figurative events in Revelation are literalized to suit the event. It is hard to follow the post because, well, for one thing, it never cites the Bible. It would help if the post actually made a statement, then backed it up with scripture. But, no - they won't do that.

There is only the one kingdom, that is why he hands it back to his father at the end of the 1,000 years, because it is God's kingdom with Christ as it;s ruler until God can deal directly with us again.

There is only, was ever only, and will ever be only one Kingdom. Why on earth, or in heaven, would there be two? That's just ridiculous. Everything belongs to God in the end.

The OP in it's two parts not only cites, but quotes the bible, nothing more is needed.

You still have no clue what the "Kingdom of God" is because you can't hear Him speaking to you?
annanicole
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9/10/2013 7:35:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
MCB: There is only the one kingdom,

Anna: Correct. It was the kingdom of God, until Jesus Christ was given all authority in heaven and on earth, and the kingdom of God thus became the kingdom of Jesus Christ

MCB: that is why he hands it back to his father at the end of the 1,000 years,

Anna: There isn't any "1,000 years".

"I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshiped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

If the "reigning" lasts a literal thousand years - then the "living" lasts the same amount of time. But you won't have that, will you? And the "they" who lived and reigned were .... who? Those who would not worship the Beast - and thus were beheaded. Is that who lives and reigns with Christ? Not according to you.

MCB: because it is God's kingdom with Christ as it;s ruler until God can deal directly with us again.

Anna: Well, it is the kingdom of Jesus Christ until He turns it over to the Father.

MCB: There is only, was ever only, and will ever be only one Kingdom. Why on earth, or in heaven, would there be two? That's just ridiculous.

Anna: Sure it is. Nobody said there were two kingdoms. I said the kingdom of Jesus Christ came - and came with power - on the day of Pentecost in AD 33. Period. There is no "developed" versus "fully developed."

That's where the problem is. Nobody said there were ever two divine kingdoms at the same time - just as there are not two literal "comings" of two different people. Nobody consented that there was or ever will be any literal 1,000-year reign of beheaded martyrs with Christ.

MCB: The OP in it's two parts not only cites, but quotes the bible, nothing more is needed.

Anna: No, it doesn't. I read it, and didn't notice ONE instance of it. Not one. I actually had to check one passage because I wasn't sure: what was cited was very close.

*****

Notice what the passage on sickness:

"Remove sickness and disabilities of all kinds"

The WatchTower thinks the kingdom of heaven will ensure good health. Why do you think they put out "Millions Now Living Will Never Die"? Same old stuff.

Luke 7:22; 9:11: "Go your way, report to John what you saw and heard: the blind are receiving sight, the lame are walking, the lepers are being cleansed and the deaf are hearing, the dead are being raised up, the poor are being told the good news." "He [Jesus Christ] received them kindly and began to speak to them about the kingdom of God, and he healed those needing a cure."

Does that passage - from God-only-knows what "translation - teach in any way, shape, form, or fashion that "all sickness and disability will be removed"? Does it? In fact, when those healings in Luke 7 were occurring, the kingdom was still being preached as "at hand" - it wasn't even here yet! Yet look at their wild statement - then analyze their "proof"! Did they prove anything? Certainly not. Not even close.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
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9/10/2013 7:47:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
MCB: "I was planning on doing "my own version" but I can't improve on what they have done here, so here goes."

Anna: Why don't you try? You surely can't do any worse. If you want to assert "there won't be any sickness", who knows? You might try to find a passage that actually at least implies it. They didn't.

You probably wouldn't start with the asinine query: "Does the Bible actually speak of God"s Kingdom as being a government?" - as if someone disputed it. I have never met ONE person who stated otherwise, so why ask a question upon everyone agrees - then set about to prove that which no one disputes?

You probably could do better than that.

Would you actually quote this: "Matt. 6:9, 10: "You must pray, then, this way: "Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come." Sanctified? SANCTIFIED? The word is "hagiastheto" which means, in this case, "to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow", literally "let be being hallowed". "Sanctified" is a possible translation, but makes no sense in this passage. Let me guess (I didn't peek): it's the NWT!

You probably could improve upon that.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
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9/10/2013 8:02:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 5:23:08 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:18:24 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:02:10 PM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "Does the Bible actually speak of God"s Kingdom as being a government?

Isa. 9:6, 7, RS: "To us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government [also KJ, AT, Dy; "dominion," JB, NE; "princely rule," NW] will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end."

Anna: That passage actually speaks of the then-coming kingdom of Jesus Christ. I'd make that clear. It is not speaking of the Father's kingdom: it is speaking of the kingdom that will be turned back over to the Father at the last day.

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this."

Of course, you do not think that Jesus was the "everlasting Father" in the first place. Nonetheless ......

Nobody that I know of ever denied that the kingdom of Jesus Christ could very properly be called a "government". So what? It is a theocracy - and Jesus is the head of it - in which Jesus Christ rules from heaven through His word. The same organization is also called:

"the body of Christ"
"the church of God"
"the vineyard of the Lord"

The term that one used or uses simply expresses whatever feature of the organization one wishes to emphasize. It amazes me that anyone would say, "Oh, the body of Christ is not fully established" or "Wait, the vineyard of the Lord is not fully present."

*****

In the majority of the rest of the post, figurative events in Revelation are literalized to suit the event. It is hard to follow the post because, well, for one thing, it never cites the Bible. It would help if the post actually made a statement, then backed it up with scripture. But, no - they won't do that.

There is only the one kingdom, that is why he hands it back to his father at the end of the 1,000 years, because it is God's kingdom with Christ as it;s ruler until God can deal directly with us again.

There is only, was ever only, and will ever be only one Kingdom. Why on earth, or in heaven, would there be two? That's just ridiculous. Everything belongs to God in the end.

The OP in it's two parts not only cites, but quotes the bible, nothing more is needed.

You still have no clue what the "Kingdom of God" is because you can't hear Him speaking to you?

No, too much noise from idiots like you, lol.
MadCornishBiker
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9/10/2013 8:12:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 7:47:48 PM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "I was planning on doing "my own version" but I can't improve on what they have done here, so here goes."

Anna: Why don't you try? You surely can't do any worse. If you want to assert "there won't be any sickness", who knows? You might try to find a passage that actually at least implies it. They didn't.

Oh that's an easy one, though it is also quoted in the OP. It is from Isaiah.

Isaiah 33:24 And no resident will say: "I am sick." The people that are dwelling in [the land] will be those pardoned for their error.

Notice also that, as Jesus did when healing the man lowered through the roof, Isaiah links sickness with error, so we can only be sickness free once we are returned to perfection.

You make it as easy as shooting fish in a barrel, lol.


You probably wouldn't start with the asinine query: "Does the Bible actually speak of God"s Kingdom as being a government?" - as if someone disputed it. I have never met ONE person who stated otherwise, so why ask a question upon everyone agrees - then set about to prove that which no one disputes?

You have said as much many times, and when I do you say that is a materialistic view of it.

You probably could do better than that.

Would you actually quote this: "Matt. 6:9, 10: "You must pray, then, this way: "Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come." Sanctified? SANCTIFIED? The word is "hagiastheto" which means, in this case, "to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow", literally "let be being hallowed". "Sanctified" is a possible translation, but makes no sense in this passage. Let me guess (I didn't peek): it's the NWT!

Sanctified also means that.

Definition of SANCTIFY

1
to set apart to a sacred purpose or to religious use : consecrate
2
to free from sin : purify
3
a : to impart or impute sacredness, inviolability, or respect to
b : to give moral or social sanction to
4
to make productive of holiness or piety <observe the day of the sabbath, to sanctify it " Deuteronomy 5:12(Douay Version)>

It seems even Mirriam Webster uses scripture as an example, lol.

You probably could improve upon that.

Nope, no-one could improve on it, which is why I didn't try.

True one could use "Hallow", or "Make holy" or other similar terms instead of Sanctify, but since they all mean the same, why bother.

You get too easily hung up over words and forms of words.
MadCornishBiker
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9/10/2013 8:31:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 7:35:40 PM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: There is only the one kingdom,

Anna: Correct. It was the kingdom of God, until Jesus Christ was given all authority in heaven and on earth, and the kingdom of God thus became the kingdom of Jesus Christ

MCB: that is why he hands it back to his father at the end of the 1,000 years,

Anna: There isn't any "1,000 years".

Pardon? You see, again you deny scripture:

Revelation 20:1-7 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 And he hurled him into the abyss and shut [it] and sealed [it] over him, that he might not mislead the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After these things he must be let loose for a little while.
4 And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death+ has no authority, but they will be priests+ of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.
7 Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison,


"I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshiped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

You are even quoting the thousand year you denied above, lol how dumb can one person be, denying it in one paragraph and them quoting it in another, lol.


If the "reigning" lasts a literal thousand years - then the "living" lasts the same amount of time. But you won't have that, will you? And the "they" who lived and reigned were .... who? Those who would not worship the Beast - and thus were beheaded. Is that who lives and reigns with Christ? Not according to you.

Absolutely according to me and to the JWs. And no, the living doesn't last the same time, that is why there is a comma there. It reads "they lived" and then ",", and then moves on to their reigning. For someone such an expert in Greek you are pretty ignorant of your own language and how nit works aren't you.


MCB: because it is God's kingdom with Christ as it;s ruler until God can deal directly with us again.

Anna: Well, it is the kingdom of Jesus Christ until He turns it over to the Father.

I quite agree, but it is still also the kingdom of God, because all belongs to God anyway, and Christ is subservient to God.


MCB: There is only, was ever only, and will ever be only one Kingdom. Why on earth, or in heaven, would there be two? That's just ridiculous.

Anna: Sure it is. Nobody said there were two kingdoms. I said the kingdom of Jesus Christ came - and came with power - on the day of Pentecost in AD 33. Period. There is no "developed" versus "fully developed."

Even just above you implied that the Kingdom of the Christ was a different thing.


That's where the problem is. Nobody said there were ever two divine kingdoms at the same time - just as there are not two literal "comings" of two different people. Nobody consented that there was or ever will be any literal 1,000-year reign of beheaded martyrs with Christ.

MCB: The OP in it's two parts not only cites, but quotes the bible, nothing more is needed.

Anna: No, it doesn't. I read it, and didn't notice ONE instance of it. Not one. I actually had to check one passage because I wasn't sure: what was cited was very close.

The I suggest you read it again, there are about 41 quotations and 3 citations, in fact there are very few words in the OP (both halves) that are not directly from scripture, and most of thjose are my explanations of what i was doing and why.

*****

Notice what the passage on sickness:

"Remove sickness and disabilities of all kinds"

The WatchTower thinks the kingdom of heaven will ensure good health. Why do you think they put out "Millions Now Living Will Never Die"? Same old stuff.

Luke 7:22; 9:11: "Go your way, report to John what you saw and heard: the blind are receiving sight, the lame are walking, the lepers are being cleansed and the deaf are hearing, the dead are being raised up, the poor are being told the good news." "He [Jesus Christ] received them kindly and began to speak to them about the kingdom of God, and he healed those needing a cure."

Does that passage - from God-only-knows what "translation - teach in any way, shape, form, or fashion that "all sickness and disability will be removed"? Does it? In fact, when those healings in Luke 7 were occurring, the kingdom was still being preached as "at hand" - it wasn't even here yet! Yet look at their wild statement - then analyze their "proof"! Did they prove anything? Certainly not. Not even close.

That was what Christ was demonstrating, and was the primary purpose of his healings and resurrections.

However I have already pointed you to the passage in Isaiah which foretells a lack of sickness in an earlier post in this thread.

This is why i suspect that someone else is loading the gun for you to fire, because so many of your comments reveal an abysmal lack of knowledge about scripture. They are setting you up for a fall every time. Every time you tell me scripture doesn't say something I produce, easily, the scripture which proves you wrong.
bornofgod
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9/10/2013 11:15:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 7:35:40 PM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: There is only the one kingdom,

Anna: Correct. It was the kingdom of God, until Jesus Christ was given all authority in heaven and on earth, and the kingdom of God thus became the kingdom of Jesus Christ

MCB: that is why he hands it back to his father at the end of the 1,000 years,

Anna: There isn't any "1,000 years".

"I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshiped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

If the "reigning" lasts a literal thousand years - then the "living" lasts the same amount of time. But you won't have that, will you? And the "they" who lived and reigned were .... who? Those who would not worship the Beast - and thus were beheaded. Is that who lives and reigns with Christ? Not according to you.

MCB: because it is God's kingdom with Christ as it;s ruler until God can deal directly with us again.

Anna: Well, it is the kingdom of Jesus Christ until He turns it over to the Father.

MCB: There is only, was ever only, and will ever be only one Kingdom. Why on earth, or in heaven, would there be two? That's just ridiculous.

Anna: Sure it is. Nobody said there were two kingdoms. I said the kingdom of Jesus Christ came - and came with power - on the day of Pentecost in AD 33. Period. There is no "developed" versus "fully developed."

That's where the problem is. Nobody said there were ever two divine kingdoms at the same time - just as there are not two literal "comings" of two different people. Nobody consented that there was or ever will be any literal 1,000-year reign of beheaded martyrs with Christ.

MCB: The OP in it's two parts not only cites, but quotes the bible, nothing more is needed.

Anna: No, it doesn't. I read it, and didn't notice ONE instance of it. Not one. I actually had to check one passage because I wasn't sure: what was cited was very close.

*****

Notice what the passage on sickness:

"Remove sickness and disabilities of all kinds"

The WatchTower thinks the kingdom of heaven will ensure good health. Why do you think they put out "Millions Now Living Will Never Die"? Same old stuff.

Luke 7:22; 9:11: "Go your way, report to John what you saw and heard: the blind are receiving sight, the lame are walking, the lepers are being cleansed and the deaf are hearing, the dead are being raised up, the poor are being told the good news." "He [Jesus Christ] received them kindly and began to speak to them about the kingdom of God, and he healed those needing a cure."

Does that passage - from God-only-knows what "translation - teach in any way, shape, form, or fashion that "all sickness and disability will be removed"? Does it? In fact, when those healings in Luke 7 were occurring, the kingdom was still being preached as "at hand" - it wasn't even here yet! Yet look at their wild statement - then analyze their "proof"! Did they prove anything? Certainly not. Not even close.

I can't believe how stupid some of you Christians are.

The Kingdom of God is the same exact thing as the Kingdom of Heaven, The Word of God, Kingdom of Jesus Christ, Kingdom of Christ, Holy Spirit, Son of God, Christ, Zion, Jacob, Light, Eternal Life, Breath of Life, Tree of Life, Book of Life, Counselor, etc. There are over 30 different biblical names used for the invisible Kingdom of God that no man will ever see because man was created in this invisible world that we know as energy today.
annanicole
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9/10/2013 11:26:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
MCB: "I was planning on doing "my own version" but I can't improve on what they have done here, so here goes."

Anna: Why don't you try? You surely can't do any worse. If you want to assert "there won't be any sickness", who knows? You might try to find a passage that actually at least implies it. They didn't.

MCB: Oh that's an easy one, though it is also quoted in the OP. It is from Isaiah.

Isaiah 33:24 And no resident will say: "I am sick." The people that are dwelling in [the land] will be those pardoned for their error.

Anna: You think that's a materialistic prophesy - that literally humans will never utter the words, "I am sick"? Why is it that only residents of Jerusalem will say that?

"Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tent that shall not be removed, the stakes whereof shall never be plucked up, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken. But there Jehovah will be with us in majesty, a place of broad rivers and streams, wherein shall go no galley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby. For Jehovah is our judge, Jehovah is our lawgiver, Jehovah is our king; he will save us. Thy tacklings are loosed; they could not strengthen the foot of their mast, they could not spread the sail: then was the prey of a great spoil divided; the lame took the prey. And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity.

Notice the last verse - the one you cited.

The inhabitants of WHERE?
"The people that dwell THEREIN" - where is THEREIN?


You see, you take a passage specific to the Jews - a prophesy regarding the Jewish nation, and run it all the way to the non-existent thousand-year reign! That passage, that prophesy, has long been fulfilled. All it refers to is that fact that Jerusalem will remain safe and impregnable, despite the invasion of Judea by Sennacherib of Assyria. In fact, Sennacherib laid seige to Jerusalem in about 700 BC. The passage you cite extols the safety - the ultimate victory - for Jerusalem.

It is absolutely ridiculous to try to apply the passage to some future date. You probably haven't even read Isaiah 33 - you evidently just saw the last verse and jumped on it.

This is an excellent example of WatchTower twisting - and the resultant seduction of the ignorant.

You be sure and answer those bolded questions. by the way.

*****

MCB: Notice also that, as Jesus did when healing the man lowered through the roof, Isaiah links sickness with error, so we can only be sickness free once we are returned to perfection.

Anna: LMAO. Notice that you tried to take an entire chapter devoted to victory over the invader, the Assyrians, and try to tell intelligent people that it refers to some imaginary future state in which nobody will catch a cold! I cite verse 1:

"Woe to thee that destroyest, and thou wast not destroyed; and dealest treacherously, and they dealt not treacherously with thee! When thou hast ceased to destroy, thou shalt be destroyed; and when thou hast made an end of dealing treacherously, they shall deal treacherously with thee."

Who is the "thee that destroyest"? Is it not the Assyrian invaders?
Who was dealing treacherously with the nation of Israel? Was it not the Assyrians?

*****

MCB: You make it as easy as shooting fish in a barrel, lol.

Anna: It is, indeed. But you are the fish. How you can, with a straight face, take a prophesy specific to the strength and durability of Jerusalem due to God's favor, in the face of invading forces - and try to tell us that what Isaiah meant was that folks won't get a sore throat ... is beyond me.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bornofgod
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9/10/2013 11:28:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 8:02:43 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:23:08 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:18:24 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:02:10 PM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "Does the Bible actually speak of God"s Kingdom as being a government?

Isa. 9:6, 7, RS: "To us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government [also KJ, AT, Dy; "dominion," JB, NE; "princely rule," NW] will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end."

Anna: That passage actually speaks of the then-coming kingdom of Jesus Christ. I'd make that clear. It is not speaking of the Father's kingdom: it is speaking of the kingdom that will be turned back over to the Father at the last day.

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this."

Of course, you do not think that Jesus was the "everlasting Father" in the first place. Nonetheless ......

Nobody that I know of ever denied that the kingdom of Jesus Christ could very properly be called a "government". So what? It is a theocracy - and Jesus is the head of it - in which Jesus Christ rules from heaven through His word. The same organization is also called:

"the body of Christ"
"the church of God"
"the vineyard of the Lord"

The term that one used or uses simply expresses whatever feature of the organization one wishes to emphasize. It amazes me that anyone would say, "Oh, the body of Christ is not fully established" or "Wait, the vineyard of the Lord is not fully present."

*****

In the majority of the rest of the post, figurative events in Revelation are literalized to suit the event. It is hard to follow the post because, well, for one thing, it never cites the Bible. It would help if the post actually made a statement, then backed it up with scripture. But, no - they won't do that.

There is only the one kingdom, that is why he hands it back to his father at the end of the 1,000 years, because it is God's kingdom with Christ as it;s ruler until God can deal directly with us again.

There is only, was ever only, and will ever be only one Kingdom. Why on earth, or in heaven, would there be two? That's just ridiculous. Everything belongs to God in the end.

The OP in it's two parts not only cites, but quotes the bible, nothing more is needed.

You still have no clue what the "Kingdom of God" is because you can't hear Him speaking to you?

No, too much noise from idiots like you, lol.

You haven't shared any knowledge of God in this forum except your opinions from your own interpretations that come from your selfish flesh.

God had me testify many times in this forum about how He created us and you laugh at His creative ability.

What a fool you are.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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9/10/2013 11:37:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 5:20:00 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/10/2013 4:50:31 PM, stubs wrote:
Yeah OP was too long for me to care haha

Your choice, your problem.

Attention Deficit Syndrome?

Or just a lack of interest in truth?

Probably the lack of interest in Christians arguing over things that in the end don't matter a whole lot.
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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9/11/2013 12:08:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Anna: Correct. It was the kingdom of God, until Jesus Christ was given all authority in heaven and on earth, and the kingdom of God thus became the kingdom of Jesus Christ

MCB: that is why he hands it back to his father at the end of the 1,000 years,

Anna: There isn't any "1,000 years".

MCB: Pardon? You see, again you deny scripture

Anna: I deny the "literalness" of that passage. That hardly constitutes denying scripture. I certainly believe - entirely believe - that the martyred saints lived and ruled with Jesus Christ for a long period of time.

*****

Anna: If the "reigning" lasts a literal thousand years - then the "living" lasts the same amount of time. But you won't have that, will you? And the "they" who lived and reigned were .... who? Those who would not worship the Beast - and thus were beheaded. Is that who lives and reigns with Christ? Not according to you.

MCB: "Absolutely, according to me and to the JWs.

Anna: Really? WatchTower doctrine is that the martyrs, specifically those who were beheaded, are the ones who will be priests and live and reign with Christ? I wasn't aware of that.

I was under the impression that you believe that Charles T. Russell would also be right in there with them. Is this true or not?

*****

MCB: "And no, the living doesn't last the same time, that is why there is a comma there. It reads "they lived" and then ",", and then moves on to their reigning. For someone such an expert in Greek you are pretty ignorant of your own language and how nit works aren't you."

Anna: I'm not ignorant of the fact that there is no grammatical reason - in Greek or English - to add that comma; thus, I ignore it.

If you hope to make an argument based upon that comma (which you certainly appear to do), then either it (1) should be there or (2) should not be there. Which is it? And more importantly, why?

*****

MCB: There is only, was ever only, and will ever be only one Kingdom. Why on earth, or in heaven, would there be two? That's just ridiculous.

Anna: Sure it is. Nobody said there were two kingdoms. I said the kingdom of Jesus Christ came - and came with power - on the day of Pentecost in AD 33. Period. There is no "developed" versus "fully developed."

MCB: Even just above you implied that the Kingdom of the Christ was a different thing.

Anna: No, I didn't. David and Solomon were citizens of the kingdom of God. The throne of David was also known as God's throne. When the Mosaic economy was taken away - actually at the point that Christ died on the cross - a new kingdom was established, the kingdom of Jesus Christ. At the last trump, Jesus Christ will turn His kingdom over to the Father.

*****

MCB: The OP in it's two parts not only cites, but quotes the bible, nothing more is needed.

Anna: No, it doesn't. I read it, and didn't notice ONE instance of it. Not one. I actually had to check one passage because I wasn't sure: what was cited was very close.

MCB: The I suggest you read it again, there are about 41 quotations and 3 citations, in fact there are very few words in the OP (both halves) that are not directly from scripture, and most of thjose are my explanations of what i was doing and why.

Anna: There is no need to re-read it. I saw passages in which the tenses of verbs were totally wrong. I saw one in which a compound sentence was arbitrarily split into two separate sentences.

*****

MCB: "Every time you tell me scripture doesn't say something I produce, easily, the scripture which proves you wrong."

Anna: Sir, if you sincerely think that Isaiah 33 refers to some future date in which folks won't have ingrown toenails, then in a way I pity you. Is that what you've been told? Is this it? "We won't get sick in the future. Isaiah 33 says that the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick." And you think you easily produced scripture that proved me wrong? Ummm ... you proved something, but I don't think you'd find it very complimentary.

*****

MCB: :"That was what Christ was demonstrating, and was the primary purpose of his healings and resurrections."

Anna: The primary purpose of healings and indeed all miracles was to confirm the veracity of the speaker, to confirm that the speaker indeed spoke with divine authority. Passages which confirm this are too numerous to require citation: there are atleast a dozen or two of them.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
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9/11/2013 3:28:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/11/2013 12:08:47 AM, annanicole wrote:
Anna: Correct. It was the kingdom of God, until Jesus Christ was given all authority in heaven and on earth, and the kingdom of God thus became the kingdom of Jesus Christ

MCB: that is why he hands it back to his father at the end of the 1,000 years,

Anna: There isn't any "1,000 years".

MCB: Pardon? You see, again you deny scripture

Anna: I deny the "literalness" of that passage. That hardly constitutes denying scripture. I certainly believe - entirely believe - that the martyred saints lived and ruled with Jesus Christ for a long period of time.

*****

Anna: If the "reigning" lasts a literal thousand years - then the "living" lasts the same amount of time. But you won't have that, will you? And the "they" who lived and reigned were .... who? Those who would not worship the Beast - and thus were beheaded. Is that who lives and reigns with Christ? Not according to you.

MCB: "Absolutely, according to me and to the JWs.

Anna: Really? WatchTower doctrine is that the martyrs, specifically those who were beheaded, are the ones who will be priests and live and reign with Christ? I wasn't aware of that.

I was under the impression that you believe that Charles T. Russell would also be right in there with them. Is this true or not?

*****

MCB: "And no, the living doesn't last the same time, that is why there is a comma there. It reads "they lived" and then ",", and then moves on to their reigning. For someone such an expert in Greek you are pretty ignorant of your own language and how nit works aren't you."

Anna: I'm not ignorant of the fact that there is no grammatical reason - in Greek or English - to add that comma; thus, I ignore it.

If you hope to make an argument based upon that comma (which you certainly appear to do), then either it (1) should be there or (2) should not be there. Which is it? And more importantly, why?

*****

MCB: There is only, was ever only, and will ever be only one Kingdom. Why on earth, or in heaven, would there be two? That's just ridiculous.

Anna: Sure it is. Nobody said there were two kingdoms. I said the kingdom of Jesus Christ came - and came with power - on the day of Pentecost in AD 33. Period. There is no "developed" versus "fully developed."

MCB: Even just above you implied that the Kingdom of the Christ was a different thing.

Anna: No, I didn't. David and Solomon were citizens of the kingdom of God. The throne of David was also known as God's throne. When the Mosaic economy was taken away - actually at the point that Christ died on the cross - a new kingdom was established, the kingdom of Jesus Christ. At the last trump, Jesus Christ will turn His kingdom over to the Father.

*****

MCB: The OP in it's two parts not only cites, but quotes the bible, nothing more is needed.

Anna: No, it doesn't. I read it, and didn't notice ONE instance of it. Not one. I actually had to check one passage because I wasn't sure: what was cited was very close.

MCB: The I suggest you read it again, there are about 41 quotations and 3 citations, in fact there are very few words in the OP (both halves) that are not directly from scripture, and most of thjose are my explanations of what i was doing and why.

Anna: There is no need to re-read it. I saw passages in which the tenses of verbs were totally wrong. I saw one in which a compound sentence was arbitrarily split into two separate sentences.

*****

MCB: "Every time you tell me scripture doesn't say something I produce, easily, the scripture which proves you wrong."

Anna: Sir, if you sincerely think that Isaiah 33 refers to some future date in which folks won't have ingrown toenails, then in a way I pity you. Is that what you've been told? Is this it? "We won't get sick in the future. Isaiah 33 says that the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick." And you think you easily produced scripture that proved me wrong? Ummm ... you proved something, but I don't think you'd find it very complimentary.

*****

MCB: :"That was what Christ was demonstrating, and was the primary purpose of his healings and resurrections."

Anna: The primary purpose of healings and indeed all miracles was to confirm the veracity of the speaker, to confirm that the speaker indeed spoke with divine authority. Passages which confirm this are too numerous to require citation: there are at least a dozen or two of them.

No that was only a secondary purpose and not a very effective one at that since the Pharisees claimed he did it all iont the power of Beelzebub, not of God. The miracles only proved that he had power, not the source of that power. Just like some on here say that I speak through Satan's spirit not God's. That is why we have to be so constantly testing our beliefs and trying to disprove them to be sure. Satan too knows scripture and can twist it, as he does through such as you.

The real evidence of who he was, of his authority lay in the scriptures he taught from and the prophecy therein. That is why he told the Pharisees "it is a wicked and adulterous generation who asks for a sign". No signs were needed, scripture was enough, just as it is today.

No signs prove nothing of any worth. Those who rely on signs are not prepared to check for themselves.

Apart from which many people followed Jesus purely because of the signs he performed and when he upset them they simply walked away. Signs can in fact be counter-productive.

Scripture is much more important, as are the signs given to recognise the true followers of God, not one of which is a sign (except in the disputed passage in Mark 16 of course).
MadCornishBiker
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9/11/2013 3:30:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 11:37:16 PM, stubs wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:20:00 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/10/2013 4:50:31 PM, stubs wrote:
Yeah OP was too long for me to care haha

Your choice, your problem.

Attention Deficit Syndrome?

Or just a lack of interest in truth?

Probably the lack of interest in Christians arguing over things that in the end don't matter a whole lot.

God's word, and the truth of it is vital to our eternal lives. We have no other way of getting to know God than scripture and John 17:, quoted in my signature, tells how important that is.

God's truth is, in reality, the only thing worth arguing over.