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Do all children go to heaven?

Atrag
Posts: 100
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9/10/2013 11:48:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Part of the premise for my argument that Christians that love their children more than God should kill their children, was based on the fact that children are inherently innocent in the eyes of god and therefore go to heaven. I'm not a theologian and I find this question difficult to answer... according to the Bible, do children that die during childhood go to heaven?
AeneasPhebe
Posts: 213
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9/10/2013 2:12:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 11:48:37 AM, Atrag wrote:
Part of the premise for my argument that Christians that love their children more than God should kill their children, was based on the fact that children are inherently innocent in the eyes of god and therefore go to heaven. I'm not a theologian and I find this question difficult to answer... according to the Bible, do children that die during childhood go to heaven?

It depends on if they now about Jesus, their salvation, and their sinful nature. A child is only innocent if they do not know of repentance and their need for salvation, ignorance is bliss. If they know about Jesus, their sin, and their need for repentance, then they are subject to hell and the flesh. This varies with all children and some adults. Truth is, only God knows the thoughts and hearts of men(children included). I have a six year old that has asked Jesus to save him. He does not know all the information included in that but he certainly knows that he does wrong and he needs Jesus to forgive him to go to heaven. Therefore, he is subject hell if he did not seek his salvation. Thank God he did.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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9/10/2013 2:17:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 2:12:30 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/10/2013 11:48:37 AM, Atrag wrote:
Part of the premise for my argument that Christians that love their children more than God should kill their children, was based on the fact that children are inherently innocent in the eyes of god and therefore go to heaven. I'm not a theologian and I find this question difficult to answer... according to the Bible, do children that die during childhood go to heaven?

It depends on if they now about Jesus, their salvation, and their sinful nature. A child is only innocent if they do not know of repentance and their need for salvation, ignorance is bliss. If they know about Jesus, their sin, and their need for repentance, then they are subject to hell and the flesh. This varies with all children and some adults. Truth is, only God knows the thoughts and hearts of men(children included). I have a six year old that has asked Jesus to save him. He does not know all the information included in that but he certainly knows that he does wrong and he needs Jesus to forgive him to go to heaven. Therefore, he is subject hell if he did not seek his salvation. Thank God he did.

What ridiculous gibberish.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
AeneasPhebe
Posts: 213
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9/10/2013 2:21:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 2:17:07 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/10/2013 2:12:30 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/10/2013 11:48:37 AM, Atrag wrote:
Part of the premise for my argument that Christians that love their children more than God should kill their children, was based on the fact that children are inherently innocent in the eyes of god and therefore go to heaven. I'm not a theologian and I find this question difficult to answer... according to the Bible, do children that die during childhood go to heaven?

It depends on if they now about Jesus, their salvation, and their sinful nature. A child is only innocent if they do not know of repentance and their need for salvation, ignorance is bliss. If they know about Jesus, their sin, and their need for repentance, then they are subject to hell and the flesh. This varies with all children and some adults. Truth is, only God knows the thoughts and hearts of men(children included). I have a six year old that has asked Jesus to save him. He does not know all the information included in that but he certainly knows that he does wrong and he needs Jesus to forgive him to go to heaven. Therefore, he is subject hell if he did not seek his salvation. Thank God he did.

What ridiculous gibberish.

Thanks. May God give you wisdom and knowledge.

Proverbs 1:22
How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

Proverbs 1:29
For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:

Proverbs 12:1
Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is brutish.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/10/2013 2:21:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 11:48:37 AM, Atrag wrote:
Part of the premise for my argument that Christians that love their children more than God should kill their children, was based on the fact that children are inherently innocent in the eyes of god and therefore go to heaven. I'm not a theologian and I find this question difficult to answer... according to the Bible, do children that die during childhood go to heaven?

The simplest answer is that according to scripture no-one goes to heaven. All of the dead are unconscious in the grave until resurrected into perfect human bodies after Armageddon.

Having said that. The few that do go, are a limited number and go for one reason only, to rule with Christ.

One thing you can be sure of, none are suffering and all will be better off after the resurrection.
AeneasPhebe
Posts: 213
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9/10/2013 2:25:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 2:21:40 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/10/2013 11:48:37 AM, Atrag wrote:
Part of the premise for my argument that Christians that love their children more than God should kill their children, was based on the fact that children are inherently innocent in the eyes of god and therefore go to heaven. I'm not a theologian and I find this question difficult to answer... according to the Bible, do children that die during childhood go to heaven?

The simplest answer is that according to scripture no-one goes to heaven. All of the dead are unconscious in the grave until resurrected into perfect human bodies after Armageddon.

Having said that. The few that do go, are a limited number and go for one reason only, to rule with Christ.

One thing you can be sure of, none are suffering and all will be better off after the resurrection.


Luke 16:20-28

King James Version (KJV)

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,075
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9/10/2013 4:04:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 11:48:37 AM, Atrag wrote:
Part of the premise for my argument that Christians that love their children more than God should kill their children, was based on the fact that children are inherently innocent in the eyes of god and therefore go to heaven. I'm not a theologian and I find this question difficult to answer... according to the Bible, do children that die during childhood go to heaven?

"YES"!!!
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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9/10/2013 4:13:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 11:48:37 AM, Atrag wrote:
Part of the premise for my argument that Christians that love their children more than God should kill their children, was based on the fact that children are inherently innocent in the eyes of god and therefore go to heaven. I'm not a theologian and I find this question difficult to answer... according to the Bible, do children that die during childhood go to heaven?

ALL God's "beings" were created in the invisible Heavenly kingdom where we'll exist forever as wavelengths of energy spoken into existence through God's Word, His first creation known as His voice.

So to answer your question, ALL God's people who die in the flesh are going to awaken in new bodies in a new earthly kingdom called Paradise but will remain invisible wavelengths of energy in God's heavenly kingdom forever.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/10/2013 4:57:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 2:25:02 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/10/2013 2:21:40 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/10/2013 11:48:37 AM, Atrag wrote:
Part of the premise for my argument that Christians that love their children more than God should kill their children, was based on the fact that children are inherently innocent in the eyes of god and therefore go to heaven. I'm not a theologian and I find this question difficult to answer... according to the Bible, do children that die during childhood go to heaven?

The simplest answer is that according to scripture no-one goes to heaven. All of the dead are unconscious in the grave until resurrected into perfect human bodies after Armageddon.

Having said that. The few that do go, are a limited number and go for one reason only, to rule with Christ.

One thing you can be sure of, none are suffering and all will be better off after the resurrection.



Luke 16:20-28

King James Version (KJV)


20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

That was simply another of Jesus illustrations it has no other meaning, and certainly doesn't mean that the dead are conscious as that would go against all of scripture, even the teachings of Christ and the APostles who spoke of death as a sleep from which we will be awakened.

John 11:1-15 Now there was a certain man sick, Laz"rus of Bethany, of the village of Mary and of Martha her sister. 2 It was, in fact, the Mary that greased the Lord with perfumed oil and wiped his feet dry with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. 3 Therefore his sisters dispatched word to him, saying: "Lord, see! the one for whom you have affection is sick." 4 But when Jesus heard it he said: "This sickness is not with death as its object, but is for the glory of God, in order that the Son of God may be glorified through it."
5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 However, when he heard that he was sick, then he actually remained two days in the place where he was. 7 Then after this he said to the disciples: "Let us go into Ju"deR42;a again." 8 The disciples said to him: "Rabbi, just lately the Judeans were seeking to stone you, and are you going there again?" 9 Jesus answered: "There are twelve hours of daylight, are there not? If anyone walks in daylight he does not bump against anything, because he sees the light of this world. 10 But if anyone walks in the night, he bumps against something, because the light is not in him."
11 He said these things, and after this he said to them: "Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep." 12 Therefore the disciples said to him: "Lord, if he has gone to rest, he will get well." 13 Jesus had spoken, however, about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 At that time, therefore, Jesus said to them outspokenly: "Lazarus has died, 15 and I rejoice on YOUR account that I was not there, in order for YOU to believe. But let us go to him."

Thus Jesus likened death to a form of sleep.

That passage in Luke is often misused to try and prove the scripturally unsupportable.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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9/10/2013 5:21:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
There's actually still christians who believe children can be subject to hell? Wow.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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9/10/2013 5:41:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 4:57:16 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/10/2013 2:25:02 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/10/2013 2:21:40 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/10/2013 11:48:37 AM, Atrag wrote:
Part of the premise for my argument that Christians that love their children more than God should kill their children, was based on the fact that children are inherently innocent in the eyes of god and therefore go to heaven. I'm not a theologian and I find this question difficult to answer... according to the Bible, do children that die during childhood go to heaven?

The simplest answer is that according to scripture no-one goes to heaven. All of the dead are unconscious in the grave until resurrected into perfect human bodies after Armageddon.

Having said that. The few that do go, are a limited number and go for one reason only, to rule with Christ.

One thing you can be sure of, none are suffering and all will be better off after the resurrection.



Luke 16:20-28

King James Version (KJV)


20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

That was simply another of Jesus illustrations it has no other meaning, and certainly doesn't mean that the dead are conscious as that would go against all of scripture, even the teachings of Christ and the APostles who spoke of death as a sleep from which we will be awakened.

John 11:1-15 Now there was a certain man sick, Laz"rus of Bethany, of the village of Mary and of Martha her sister. 2 It was, in fact, the Mary that greased the Lord with perfumed oil and wiped his feet dry with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. 3 Therefore his sisters dispatched word to him, saying: "Lord, see! the one for whom you have affection is sick." 4 But when Jesus heard it he said: "This sickness is not with death as its object, but is for the glory of God, in order that the Son of God may be glorified through it."
5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 However, when he heard that he was sick, then he actually remained two days in the place where he was. 7 Then after this he said to the disciples: "Let us go into Ju"deR42;a again." 8 The disciples said to him: "Rabbi, just lately the Judeans were seeking to stone you, and are you going there again?" 9 Jesus answered: "There are twelve hours of daylight, are there not? If anyone walks in daylight he does not bump against anything, because he sees the light of this world. 10 But if anyone walks in the night, he bumps against something, because the light is not in him."
11 He said these things, and after this he said to them: "Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep." 12 Therefore the disciples said to him: "Lord, if he has gone to rest, he will get well." 13 Jesus had spoken, however, about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 At that time, therefore, Jesus said to them outspokenly: "Lazarus has died, 15 and I rejoice on YOUR account that I was not there, in order for YOU to believe. But let us go to him."

Thus Jesus likened death to a form of sleep.

That passage in Luke is often misused to try and prove the scripturally unsupportable.

Death of the flesh is NOT real. Nothing in this world is real except the one who created it all. Since we're His invisible thoughts, it's our invisible existence that's real, not the visible kingdom.
AeneasPhebe
Posts: 213
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9/10/2013 5:46:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 5:21:45 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
There's actually still christians who believe children can be subject to hell? Wow.

There is actually so-called Christians who believe children cannot be subject to hell? Wow.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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9/10/2013 5:52:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 5:46:13 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:21:45 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
There's actually still christians who believe children can be subject to hell? Wow.

There is actually so-called Christians who believe children cannot be subject to hell? Wow.

Still waiting on that debate challenge on genocide wherein which you expose my supposed ignorance of scripture. Should I be holding my breath or not?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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9/10/2013 5:55:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 5:46:13 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:21:45 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
There's actually still christians who believe children can be subject to hell? Wow.

There is actually so-called Christians who believe children cannot be subject to hell? Wow.

Most people with functioning moral faculties - christian or otherwise - do...
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
AeneasPhebe
Posts: 213
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9/10/2013 6:07:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 4:57:16 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

John 11:1-15 Now there was a certain man sick, Laz"rus of Bethany, of the village of Mary and of Martha her sister. 2 It was, in fact, the Mary that greased the Lord with perfumed oil and wiped his feet dry with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. 3 Therefore his sisters dispatched word to him, saying: "Lord, see! the one for whom you have affection is sick." 4 But when Jesus heard it he said: "This sickness is not with death as its object, but is for the glory of God, in order that the Son of God may be glorified through it."
5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 However, when he heard that he was sick, then he actually remained two days in the place where he was. 7 Then after this he said to the disciples: "Let us go into Ju"deR42;a again." 8 The disciples said to him: "Rabbi, just lately the Judeans were seeking to stone you, and are you going there again?" 9 Jesus answered: "There are twelve hours of daylight, are there not? If anyone walks in daylight he does not bump against anything, because he sees the light of this world. 10 But if anyone walks in the night, he bumps against something, because the light is not in him."
11 He said these things, and after this he said to them: "Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep." 12 Therefore the disciples said to him: "Lord, if he has gone to rest, he will get well." 13 Jesus had spoken, however, about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 At that time, therefore, Jesus said to them outspokenly: "Lazarus has died, 15 and I rejoice on YOUR account that I was not there, in order for YOU to believe. But let us go to him."

Thus Jesus likened death to a form of sleep.

That passage in Luke is often misused to try and prove the scripturally unsupportable.

It is not misused it is plain in what it says and you ignore it to continue on in your own beliefs. Instead of taking the whole of scripture. It is obvious that death is a form of sleep because of the body. Our physical body is at rest but our soul is not at rest. We will reunite with our physical body at the resurrection and it will be glorified by Christ. This explanation is the only one that agrees with the whole of scripture. Yours ignores the passage in Luke to say we do not recieve torment or comfort at our physical death until the resurrection but the Bible plainly says different. Our soul does go to the heart of the earth to await Christ. It is alive and aware of torment or comfort.

Psalm 23:4
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.

1 Corinthians 15:54-57
Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die

Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

1 Peter 1:3-5
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade"kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

The Bible uses the term "asleep" or "sleeping" when referring to the physical body of the believer at death. It is important to note that the term is used solely for believers. The dead body appears to be asleep when it is separated at death from the spirit and soul of the believer.

1 Corinthians 15:50-53
I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed"in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

Genesis 37:34-35 Then Jacob tore his garments and put sackcloth on his loins and mourned for his son many days. All his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted and said, "No, I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning."

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast(already has cast them) them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;(they are kept and so are those who are not saved till judgment)

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
AeneasPhebe
Posts: 213
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9/10/2013 6:08:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 5:52:39 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:46:13 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:21:45 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
There's actually still christians who believe children can be subject to hell? Wow.

There is actually so-called Christians who believe children cannot be subject to hell? Wow.

Still waiting on that debate challenge on genocide wherein which you expose my supposed ignorance of scripture. Should I be holding my breath or not?

I work 12 hours a day but anyway you have not made it acceptable and I have told you numerous times about it and you have done nothing.
AeneasPhebe
Posts: 213
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9/10/2013 6:09:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 5:55:23 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:46:13 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:21:45 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
There's actually still christians who believe children can be subject to hell? Wow.

There is actually so-called Christians who believe children cannot be subject to hell? Wow.

Most people with functioning moral faculties - christian or otherwise - do...

Whose morals? Mans or Gods?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/10/2013 7:26:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 6:09:38 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:55:23 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:46:13 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:21:45 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
There's actually still christians who believe children can be subject to hell? Wow.

There is actually so-called Christians who believe children cannot be subject to hell? Wow.

Most people with functioning moral faculties - christian or otherwise - do...

Whose morals? Mans or Gods?

Does man actually have anything that can realistically be called morals?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/10/2013 7:55:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 6:07:08 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/10/2013 4:57:16 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:



It is not misused it is plain in what it says and you ignore it to continue on in your own beliefs. Instead of taking the whole of scripture. It is obvious that death is a form of sleep because of the body. Our physical body is at rest but our soul is not at rest. We will reunite with our physical body at the resurrection and it will be glorified by Christ. This explanation is the only one that agrees with the whole of scripture. Yours ignores the passage in Luke to say we do not recieve torment or comfort at our physical death until the resurrection but the Bible plainly says different. Our soul does go to the heart of the earth to await Christ. It is alive and aware of torment or comfort.

Think about that illustration, it doesn't make sense of you take it literally. How could a drop of water survive in the heat of which the Rich man is suffering?

The bible is very clear that the dead are "conscious of nothing"

Eccl. 9:5: "The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all."
Ps. 146:4: "His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts ["thoughts," KJ, 145:4 in Dy; "all his thinking," NE; "plans," RS, NAB] do perish."
John 11:11-14: ""Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep." . . . Jesus said to them outspokenly: "Lazarus has died."" (Also Psalm 13:3)

Your belief contradicts all of those.

No Luke 16 is simply an illustration of the changed state of the downtrodden people and the religiously "rich".

Don't forget, Jesus by his own words always taught in illustrations in order that people should not get the sense of it, as you have not of Luke 16.

Luke 8:10 He said: "To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of God, but for the rest it is in illustrations, in order that, though looking, they may look in vain and, though hearing, they may not get the meaning.

Psalm 78:2 In a proverbial saying I will open my mouth; I will cause riddles of long ago to bubble forth,

Matthew 13:10-12 So the disciples came up and said to him: "Why is it you speak to them by the use of illustrations?" 11 In reply he said: "To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets+ of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted. 12 For whoever has, more will be given him and he will be made to abound; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.

Matthew 13:35 that there might be fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet who said: "I will open my mouth with illustrations, I will publish things hidden since the founding."

Mark 4:34 Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them, but privately to his disciples he would explain all things.


Psalm 23:4
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.

Very true, Jehovah is the God of all comfort. Notice however that is talking of the Valley of the Shadow of death, not death itself. David lived in that shadow all the time he was hunted by Saul.

1 Corinthians 15:54-57
Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die

Yes but Paul makes no mention of when that will happen, and besides which as he explains elsewhere he is amongst those who go to heaven to rule with the Christ, and scripture later limits that number to 144,000.


Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

Same again


John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

That is right, but note he also said he was the resurrection and the life. Here Jesus was referring to those who have died and been resurrected, who look forward to eternal life on earth. Also note that scripture speaks of two f#deaths, the first and normal one we all suffer and the second from which there is no resurrection.. Revelation 20:14 And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.

Note also that both death and HAdes "hell" are also cast into the second death, which shows that it is a state rather than a place.


1 Peter 1:3-5
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade"kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

That is also true. For those with the heavenly hope it is to heaven to rule the earth with Christ, for the rest of us it is to human perfection on the earth. Both destinies rely on faithfulness to death however.


The Bible uses the term "asleep" or "sleeping" when referring to the physical body of the believer at death. It is important to note that the term is used solely for believers. The dead body appears to be asleep when it is separated at death from the spirit and soul of the believer.

The soul is not a separate thing or entity, the word transalted soul is also often translated simply as life, and Genesis declared that Adam "became a living soul", not that he was given one.

Also in a number of places, especially in the law, animals are referred to as souls (not has having souls).

The Doctrine of the immortal souls is another part of the great APostasy that was foretold to follow the death of the Apostles, and has been allowed to flourish ever since until God's time comes to remove it, and those who cling to it.


1 Corinthians 15:50-53
I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed"in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

That is true and applies to all those whose inheritance, after proving faithful to death, is to rule with Christ in his kingdom.

Genesis 37:34-35 Then Jacob tore his garments and put sackcloth on his loins and mourned for his son many days. All his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted and said, "No, I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning."

That too is true, but it says nothing about his state after dying and entering the grave, only that he would die mourning.


2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast(already has cast them) them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;(they are kept and so are those who are not saved till judgment)

Correct but again what is hell, since it is to be cast into the Lake of fire? It is nothing more than the grave. The "judgement" is the final test at the end of Jesus 1,000 year reign and before he hands the kingdom back to his father.


Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Again an illustration, as was Jesus habit, as shown earlier in this post.

In his teachings Jesus always employed either illu
MadCornishBiker
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9/10/2013 7:59:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 5:55:23 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:46:13 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:21:45 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
There's actually still christians who believe children can be subject to hell? Wow.

There is actually so-called Christians who believe children cannot be subject to hell? Wow.

Most people with functioning moral faculties - christian or otherwise - do...

All are consigned to hell at death because hell is simply the grave, where all are unconscious, awaiting resurrection.

Incidentally there is no such thing as an innocent child in God's eyes because we are all born in the imperfection we inherited from Adam. Therefore none can be innocent.

How many people have truly functioning moral faculties? Humanity cannot even agree what morality is let alone what it should be, there are so many different ideas on that.

However God has an absolute moral code, one we need to strive to adopt.
MadCornishBiker
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9/10/2013 8:01:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 5:21:45 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
There's actually still christians who believe children can be subject to hell? Wow.

But mostly those don't even know what hell is in reality, or even what death actually is.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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9/10/2013 9:13:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 6:09:38 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:55:23 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:46:13 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:21:45 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
There's actually still christians who believe children can be subject to hell? Wow.

There is actually so-called Christians who believe children cannot be subject to hell? Wow.

Most people with functioning moral faculties - christian or otherwise - do...

Whose morals? Mans or Gods?

God's.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
AeneasPhebe
Posts: 213
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9/10/2013 9:54:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 9:13:58 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/10/2013 6:09:38 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:55:23 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:46:13 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:21:45 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
There's actually still christians who believe children can be subject to hell? Wow.

There is actually so-called Christians who believe children cannot be subject to hell? Wow.

Most people with functioning moral faculties - christian or otherwise - do...

Whose morals? Mans or Gods?

God's.

Oh...so you dictate and understand God's morality? God says all are sinners, all are worthy of death, all are worthy of hell. All does not exclude a child.
AeneasPhebe
Posts: 213
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9/10/2013 10:06:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 7:55:54 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Think about that illustration, it doesn't make sense of you take it literally. How could a drop of water survive in the heat of which the Rich man is suffering?

Who said it is the same water we use on earth? It is obvious it is not because they are in a spiritual state.

The bible is very clear that the dead are "conscious of nothing"

Eccl. 9:5: "The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all."

Ecclesiastes 9:5
King James Version (KJV)
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Slighty different isn't it.

Ps. 146:4: "His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts ["thoughts," KJ, 145:4 in Dy; "all his thinking," NE; "plans," RS, NAB] do perish."
John 11:11-14: ""Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep." . . . Jesus said to them outspokenly: "Lazarus has died."" (Also Psalm 13:3)

Your belief contradicts all of those.

No, No it don't.

No Luke 16 is simply an illustration of the changed state of the downtrodden people and the religiously "rich".

Don't forget, Jesus by his own words always taught in illustrations in order that people should not get the sense of it, as you have not of Luke 16.

Luke 8:10 He said: "To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of God, but for the rest it is in illustrations, in order that, though looking, they may look in vain and, though hearing, they may not get the meaning.

Notice this verse you quoted: "but for the rest it is in illustrations, in order that, though looking, they may look in vain and, though hearing, they may not get the meaning."

Is it not you who says it is simply an illustration? It seems by your own admission you are the one who Jesus himself said will look in vain and not get the meaning.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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9/11/2013 1:09:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
MCB: "Having said that. The few that do go, are a limited number and go for one reason only, to rule with Christ."

Anna: This limited number of course is only those who were martyred for the cause of Christ. That's WatchTower teaching: "Get beheaded and go rule." It is based upon their insistence of a literal interpretation of Rev 20 : 6,

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Of course, that's one of those things that was "at hand" and to "shortly come to pass" 2,000 years ago. Why? Well, the Bible says so - and gives the reason: "the time is fulfilled." Witnesses can't accept that, though - and they excuse it by saying that it just "means whatever God wants it to mean." Very interesting, to say the least.

Guillotine = rule in heaven.

Everyone else = ruled down here on earth
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Fractals
Posts: 38
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9/11/2013 1:58:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 5:55:23 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:46:13 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:21:45 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
There's actually still christians who believe children can be subject to hell? Wow.

There is actually so-called Christians who believe children cannot be subject to hell? Wow.

Most people with functioning moral faculties - christian or otherwise - do...

Therein lies the issue unfortunately, since it's scripturally weak either side. It depends on ones overall thoughts on the divine itself, and for some hard liners, that's the reality of their faith. *shrugs*
MadCornishBiker
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9/11/2013 2:47:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/11/2013 1:58:35 AM, Fractals wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:55:23 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:46:13 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:21:45 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
There's actually still christians who believe children can be subject to hell? Wow.

There is actually so-called Christians who believe children cannot be subject to hell? Wow.

Most people with functioning moral faculties - christian or otherwise - do...

Therein lies the issue unfortunately, since it's scripturally weak either side. It depends on ones overall thoughts on the divine itself, and for some hard liners, that's the reality of their faith. *shrugs*

God's morality is very clearly defined in scripture, though few people are really interested in it saying it's wrong for the times, when really what they should be saying is that the times are wrong for it.
MadCornishBiker
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9/11/2013 2:54:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/11/2013 1:09:11 AM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "Having said that. The few that do go, are a limited number and go for one reason only, to rule with Christ."

Anna: This limited number of course is only those who were martyred for the cause of Christ. That's WatchTower teaching: "Get beheaded and go rule." It is based upon their insistence of a literal interpretation of Rev 20 : 6,

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Of course, that's one of those things that was "at hand" and to "shortly come to pass" 2,000 years ago. Why? Well, the Bible says so - and gives the reason: "the time is fulfilled." Witnesses can't accept that, though - and they excuse it by saying that it just "means whatever God wants it to mean." Very interesting, to say the least.

Guillotine = rule in heaven.

Everyone else = ruled down here on earth

Witnesses accept that the time was fulfilled, it is who fails to understand what "the time" referred to. It simply referred to the arrival of the Messiah. You read much more into it than is there. In effect you add to scripture.

Not sure what you mean by "Guillotine", but you appear to have gpot the principle right.

All those on earth will be ruled by the heavenly Government, ruling from heaven. Do you see a problem in that because I don;t, that is how I live right now, any human Government is secondary, just like local Government is one rung below National. Similar I suppose to your State and NAtional Governments.

Before long the human ruling element will be removed, and the only law that will count is God's law, and though there are few of them now they cover everything.

That was originally the plan, it was even how Israel started out before they rejected God from being king over them, and insisted on a human king. They were supposed to be different to all the nations around them but they didn't really want to be.

Next time round there will be no choice, it will eb God's kingdom under Christ or not kingdom at all.
MadCornishBiker
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9/11/2013 3:16:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 10:06:25 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/10/2013 7:55:54 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Think about that illustration, it doesn't make sense of you take it literally. How could a drop of water survive in the heat of which the Rich man is suffering?

Who said it is the same water we use on earth? It is obvious it is not because they are in a spiritual state.

It is water to drink he asked for, that is the same water we use, though in the illustration you are sort of right because it was used to illustrate the spiritual food that the "Rich man" should have been supplying to "Lazarus" and those he represented.

Could you make your mind up please. One minute it is an illustration with you, the next it is describing a real scene. How often in illustration did Jesus describe a real scene? Never. The camel and the needles eye for example. No-one is even going to think of trying to push a camel through the eye of a needle, lol.

The whole thing is a word picture it does not represent a reality.


The bible is very clear that the dead are "conscious of nothing"

Eccl. 9:5: "The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all."

Ecclesiastes 9:5
King James Version (KJV)
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Slighty different isn't it.

Not in meaning no, they are still conscious of nothing. Knowing nothing is exactly the same state, after all if you are conscious of anything you know it.


Ps. 146:4: "His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts ["thoughts," KJ, 145:4 in Dy; "all his thinking," NE; "plans," RS, NAB] do perish."
John 11:11-14: ""Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep." . . . Jesus said to them outspokenly: "Lazarus has died."" (Also Psalm 13:3)

Your belief contradicts all of those.

No they don't they confirm them, neither suggest a part of us lives on, the exact opposite.


No, No it don't.

No Luke 16 is simply an illustration of the changed state of the downtrodden people and the religiously "rich".

Don't forget, Jesus by his own words always taught in illustrations in order that people should not get the sense of it, as you have not of Luke 16.

Luke 8:10 He said: "To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of God, but for the rest it is in illustrations, in order that, though looking, they may look in vain and, though hearing, they may not get the meaning.

Notice this verse you quoted: "but for the rest it is in illustrations, in order that, though looking, they may look in vain and, though hearing, they may not get the meaning."

Is it not you who says it is simply an illustration? It seems by your own admission you are the one who Jesus himself said will look in vain and not get the meaning.

Again the exact opposite I am one who sees and gets the meaning because I rely on Jesus as the Apostles did, to explain things to me.

I get the meaning only too well. IN the illustration you cite in Luke 16, the meaning is that the state of the religious leaders and the ones they refused to give pure spiritual "water " to would soon be reversed and the religious leaders would be coming to the "Lazarus" types for that water.

That also fits in with many other scriptures which describe God as choosing the humble, the ignoble, those not thought well of, as his servants.

1 Corinthians 1:26-31 For YOU behold his calling of YOU, brothers, that not many wise in a fleshly way were called, not many powerful, not many of noble birth; 27 but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put the strong things to shame; 28 and God chose the ignoble things of the world and the things looked down upon, the things that are not, that he might bring to nothing the things that are, 29 in order that no flesh might boast in the sight of God. 30 But it is due to him that YOU are in union with Christ Jesus, who has become to us wisdom from God, also righteousness and sanctification and release by ransom; 31 that it may be just as it is written: "He that boasts, let him boast in Jehovah."

We of the LAzarus class are now the ones in control of teh spiritual food, because we were, and still are, looked down on by those who should, and all too often do, know better.

Why? Because knowing our human lack of wisdom we obey what James said at James 1:5-8 5 So, if any one of YOU is lacking in wisdom, let him keep on asking God, for he gives generously to all and without reproaching; and it will be given him. 6 But let him keep on asking in faith, not doubting at all, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about. 7 In fact, let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from Jehovah; 8 he is an indecisive man, unsteady in all his ways.

Because we recognise that as humans trapped in Satan's world we need God's help to get at the truth which sets us free, so we ask for it, in the sure and certain knowledge that we will get it through holy spirit. We rely on God not ourselves for understanding.

Al of my understandings come from God, through is word and with the aid of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society who are God's servants on earth at this time.

Everything they teach comes from God's word, and they insist that we check it out to make sure. we must rely on no man, not even them. Acts 17:10;11 Immediately by night the brothers sent both Paul and Silas out to Beroea, and these, upon arriving, went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so.

The Thessalonicans were noble because they accepted God's word as preached by the Apostels, but the Beroeans were more so by they tested that word out to make sure. They wanted the truth from God's word, not the opinions of any man, no matter how accurate that word may be.

The Jehovah's Witnesses call that "making the truth your own". That makes it personal between us and God, with no man in the middle.
MadCornishBiker
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9/11/2013 3:20:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/10/2013 9:54:37 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/10/2013 9:13:58 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/10/2013 6:09:38 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:55:23 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:46:13 PM, AeneasPhebe wrote:
At 9/10/2013 5:21:45 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
There's actually still christians who believe children can be subject to hell? Wow.

There is actually so-called Christians who believe children cannot be subject to hell? Wow.

Most people with functioning moral faculties - christian or otherwise - do...

Whose morals? Mans or Gods?

God's.

Oh...so you dictate and understand God's morality? God says all are sinners, all are worthy of death, all are worthy of hell. All does not exclude a child.

Only God has the right and the ability to dictate morality, no human has the right to change it.

We also need God's help in understanding that morality because it is all encapsulated in the commandment "You must love your neighbour as yourself" or to put it another way "do no harm".

We need God's help and guidance, as Adam did, to work out exactly what does harm our fellow man and what doesn't, and in what way.. It could be as simple as providing a bad example.