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Everybody's A Christian!

Naysayer
Posts: 746
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9/12/2013 6:48:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
http://www.independent.co.uk...

In a move that is not really unique in the Catholic religion when striving for power, ascendancy, or relevance, the Pope abandons pretense of true Christianity and just sort of makes it up as he goes along, twisting scripture to suit his needs and dices up truth, again ensuring Catholicism's firm position of Best in Show in the Cult Category.

Welcome to the new age.
anomalous
Posts: 118
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9/12/2013 6:58:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/12/2013 6:48:03 AM, Naysayer wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk...

In a move that is not really unique in the Catholic religion when striving for power, ascendancy, or relevance, the Pope abandons pretense of true Christianity and just sort of makes it up as he goes along, twisting scripture to suit his needs and dices up truth, again ensuring Catholicism's firm position of Best in Show in the Cult Category.

Welcome to the new age.

I think it's the most progressive thing a Pope has said, well, ever. I respect his opinion, as it is in line with the vast majority of progressive, modern Christians. Good people go to Heaven. What's manipulative about that? Isn't love and forgiveness one of, if not the most important thing Jebus preached?
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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9/12/2013 7:38:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/12/2013 6:48:03 AM, Naysayer wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk...

In a move that is not really unique in the Catholic religion when striving for power, ascendancy, or relevance, the Pope abandons pretense of true Christianity and just sort of makes it up as he goes along, twisting scripture to suit his needs and dices up truth, again ensuring Catholicism's firm position of Best in Show in the Cult Category.

Welcome to the new age.

Not sure where you've been at but the idea of "anonymous Christians" (ala Karl Rahner) been around for a while, and the Church has had the official stance of inclusivism since Vatican II, I think. (Catholics correct me if I'm wrong here.) He's just reiterating it.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
ExsurgeDomine
Posts: 176
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9/12/2013 8:37:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/12/2013 6:48:03 AM, Naysayer wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk...

In a move that is not really unique in the Catholic religion when striving for power, ascendancy, or relevance, the Pope abandons pretense of true Christianity and just sort of makes it up as he goes along, twisting scripture to suit his needs and dices up truth, again ensuring Catholicism's firm position of Best in Show in the Cult Category.

Welcome to the new age.

lol @ Antipope Ratzinger being 'extremely conservative'.

I didn't read Antipope Bergoglio's actual letter, but it seems to me from what I read in the article that he more dodged the question than anything else. Perhaps it's more clear in the rest of what he wrote, but I somehow doubt it since if the writer could find something that more clearly supported his title he probably would have done for.

Let me just paste the bit quoted in the article below:

You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don"t believe and who don"t seek the faith.

This is the question, clearly.

I start by saying " and this is the fundamental thing " that God"s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart.

He starts by not answering the question. It's pretty much a yes or no, but he doesn't say either of those and sort of digresses onto a tangent.

This is on the verge of being false, dead wrong, but I hesitate to make that accusation without knowing more about the context. After all, he could be playing a very crafty semantics game, for the Lord said 'no one comes to the Father, but by me', and so it could be argued that heretics and infidels are not at all able to approach God with a sincere and contrite heart to gain this mercy, which as an opinion is in no way unorthodox.

The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

This is false, dead wrong when taken in isolation, although it's a little bit more tolerable in context where it's clear he was leading up to the next point he makes.

Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience.

This was mainly what I think he was getting at with regards to people who don't believe in God, for it is a dogmatic teaching that no one is invincibly ignorant of the natural law and for that reason even the faithless are mortally culpable for such transgressions.

Now I don't really think that's the most important thing, but it's a step, since it's marginally better to be an infidel who sins infrequently than an infidel who sins frequently, although neither are best case scenarios.

Overall, if one sought cause to impugn the orthodoxy of Antipope Bergoglio I do not think this would make them a powerful case.
ExsurgeDomine
Posts: 176
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9/12/2013 8:41:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/12/2013 7:38:14 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/12/2013 6:48:03 AM, Naysayer wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk...

In a move that is not really unique in the Catholic religion when striving for power, ascendancy, or relevance, the Pope abandons pretense of true Christianity and just sort of makes it up as he goes along, twisting scripture to suit his needs and dices up truth, again ensuring Catholicism's firm position of Best in Show in the Cult Category.

Welcome to the new age.

Not sure where you've been at but the idea of "anonymous Christians" (ala Karl Rahner) been around for a while, and the Church has had the official stance of inclusivism since Vatican II, I think. (Catholics correct me if I'm wrong here.) He's just reiterating it.

I'm not going to say you're wrong, but I would like some evidence please.

After all, we have such unambiguous teaching from Pope Eugene IV (ex Cantate Domino):

The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church"s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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9/12/2013 9:13:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
http://theophilogue.com...

At 9/12/2013 8:41:58 AM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 9/12/2013 7:38:14 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/12/2013 6:48:03 AM, Naysayer wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk...

In a move that is not really unique in the Catholic religion when striving for power, ascendancy, or relevance, the Pope abandons pretense of true Christianity and just sort of makes it up as he goes along, twisting scripture to suit his needs and dices up truth, again ensuring Catholicism's firm position of Best in Show in the Cult Category.

Welcome to the new age.

Not sure where you've been at but the idea of "anonymous Christians" (ala Karl Rahner) been around for a while, and the Church has had the official stance of inclusivism since Vatican II, I think. (Catholics correct me if I'm wrong here.) He's just reiterating it.

I'm not going to say you're wrong, but I would like some evidence please.

After all, we have such unambiguous teaching from Pope Eugene IV (ex Cantate Domino):

The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church"s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

Isn't it common knowledge? o_O Pretty much every source I've ever seen mentions yhe inclusivism of post Vatican II theology.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Naysayer
Posts: 746
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9/12/2013 9:33:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/12/2013 7:38:14 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/12/2013 6:48:03 AM, Naysayer wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk...

In a move that is not really unique in the Catholic religion when striving for power, ascendancy, or relevance, the Pope abandons pretense of true Christianity and just sort of makes it up as he goes along, twisting scripture to suit his needs and dices up truth, again ensuring Catholicism's firm position of Best in Show in the Cult Category.

Welcome to the new age.

Not sure where you've been at but the idea of "anonymous Christians" (ala Karl Rahner) been around for a while, and the Church has had the official stance of inclusivism since Vatican II, I think. (Catholics correct me if I'm wrong here.) He's just reiterating it.

So..."A move that is not really unique in the Catholic religion when striving for power, ascendancy, or relevance,"

And as Anamolous so aptly put it, it appeals to the progressives. Let's be more modern. Just as his predecessor designated "ruining the earth" a new, modern deadly sin. It's all about pandering to the masses. Don't hold the standard. Shift. Evolve. Our modern philosophies have so much to improve on the Word of God.
Polaris
Posts: 1,120
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9/12/2013 10:17:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
FRANCIS: "I start by saying " and this is the fundamental thing " that God"s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart."

It doesn't sound as if Francis is saying all are Christians, it sounds as if he is saying that all people may be forgiven IF they seek God with a sincere heart. An atheist that seeks God with a sincere heart, isn't really an atheist at that point. No?

The only reason this is a newsworthy is that traditionally it has always been held that denying Jesus, is an unforgivable sin. Francis seems to be saying, there are no unforgivable sins.
ExsurgeDomine
Posts: 176
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9/12/2013 10:55:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/12/2013 9:13:13 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
http://theophilogue.com...


At 9/12/2013 8:41:58 AM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 9/12/2013 7:38:14 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/12/2013 6:48:03 AM, Naysayer wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk...

In a move that is not really unique in the Catholic religion when striving for power, ascendancy, or relevance, the Pope abandons pretense of true Christianity and just sort of makes it up as he goes along, twisting scripture to suit his needs and dices up truth, again ensuring Catholicism's firm position of Best in Show in the Cult Category.

Welcome to the new age.

Not sure where you've been at but the idea of "anonymous Christians" (ala Karl Rahner) been around for a while, and the Church has had the official stance of inclusivism since Vatican II, I think. (Catholics correct me if I'm wrong here.) He's just reiterating it.

I'm not going to say you're wrong, but I would like some evidence please.

After all, we have such unambiguous teaching from Pope Eugene IV (ex Cantate Domino):

The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church"s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

Isn't it common knowledge? o_O Pretty much every source I've ever seen mentions yhe inclusivism of post Vatican II theology.

While I have no doubt that there is inclusivist post-Vatican II theology, plenty other modernist heresies arose from Vatican II, yet none of these may be the position of the Church either.
madilincrock
Posts: 22
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9/12/2013 4:17:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/12/2013 6:48:03 AM, Naysayer wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk...

In a move that is not really unique in the Catholic religion when striving for power, ascendancy, or relevance, the Pope abandons pretense of true Christianity and just sort of makes it up as he goes along, twisting scripture to suit his needs and dices up truth, again ensuring Catholicism's firm position of Best in Show in the Cult Category.

Welcome to the new age.

No, welcome to the age were the church has to change some of their ideals again so they can enslave more people inside their false dogma of manipulation used by fear
exposingchristianity,com
madilincrock
Posts: 22
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9/12/2013 4:18:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
welcome to the age were the church has to change some of its previoulsy false ideals so they can enslave the populace back into their lies.

exposingchristianity,com
Dogknox
Posts: 5,070
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9/12/2013 4:29:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/12/2013 6:48:03 AM, Naysayer wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk...

In a move that is not really unique in the Catholic religion when striving for power, ascendancy, or relevance, the Pope abandons pretense of true Christianity and just sort of makes it up as he goes along, twisting scripture to suit his needs and dices up truth, again ensuring Catholicism's firm position of Best in Show in the Cult Category.

Welcome to the new age.

The Catholic Church is Two Thousand years old!!
Most Baptists trace their heritage to early 17th-century C.E. differences with the Church of England and the subsequent decision to form Christian communities with local autonomy, an emphasis on believer's baptism, and an understanding of the church as primarily a community of believers.

Naysayer Catholic' believe the scriptures!!!
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

Do you see it?? (above) "Baptism MAKES DISCIPLES!"
Naysayer Disciples are Jesus' brothers.. Baptism saves!

Acts 2:40
With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Do you see it?? (above) "Baptism ADDS people to Jesus' Body!"
Naysayer All IN Jesus are Children of God... Baptism saves!

Matthew 28:20
and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Do you see it?? (above) Jesus is ALWAYS WITH the Holy Catholic Church.. ALWAYS WITH means he is NOT with your church!!
Naysayer You do not believe what CHRISTIANS have always believed...You somehow think; "Satan overpowered Jesus and Satan TOOK Jesus' body from Jesus!"
You think, the Baptist church needs to restore Jesus' body back to him!!!
You MUST reject the scriptures to be Baptist! If you accepted the scriptures you would have to be Catholic!

John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever"

Naysayer The Holy Spirit is FOREVER WITH the one Church Jesus established.. The Holy Catholic Church!

You MUST reject the scriptures (above) and many more to be Baptist!
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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9/12/2013 5:02:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/12/2013 6:48:03 AM, Naysayer wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk...

In a move that is not really unique in the Catholic religion when striving for power, ascendancy, or relevance, the Pope abandons pretense of true Christianity and just sort of makes it up as he goes along, twisting scripture to suit his needs and dices up truth, again ensuring Catholicism's firm position of Best in Show in the Cult Category.

Welcome to the new age.

The Vatican has had mafia leaders as popes in the past so what's wrong with the current heathen pope?
Dogknox
Posts: 5,070
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9/12/2013 6:00:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/12/2013 10:17:23 AM, Polaris wrote:
FRANCIS: "I start by saying " and this is the fundamental thing " that God"s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart."

It doesn't sound as if Francis is saying all are Christians, it sounds as if he is saying that all people may be forgiven IF they seek God with a sincere heart. An atheist that seeks God with a sincere heart, isn't really an atheist at that point. No?

The only reason this is a newsworthy is that traditionally it has always been held that denying Jesus, is an unforgivable sin. Francis seems to be saying, there are no unforgivable sins.

Polaris The unforgivable sin is denying the Holy Spirit!! The SAVED turning his back on salvation!! KNOWING the truth and rejecting the truth as a lie is the unforgivable sin!!

The Holy Spirit leads into all truth.. an life long Atheist can't make an unforgivable sin because they never had the truth!
Bishops can make the unforgivable sin, the common man on the street can't!

Dogknox
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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9/12/2013 6:06:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/12/2013 10:55:17 AM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 9/12/2013 9:13:13 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
http://theophilogue.com...


At 9/12/2013 8:41:58 AM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 9/12/2013 7:38:14 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/12/2013 6:48:03 AM, Naysayer wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk...

In a move that is not really unique in the Catholic religion when striving for power, ascendancy, or relevance, the Pope abandons pretense of true Christianity and just sort of makes it up as he goes along, twisting scripture to suit his needs and dices up truth, again ensuring Catholicism's firm position of Best in Show in the Cult Category.

Welcome to the new age.

Not sure where you've been at but the idea of "anonymous Christians" (ala Karl Rahner) been around for a while, and the Church has had the official stance of inclusivism since Vatican II, I think. (Catholics correct me if I'm wrong here.) He's just reiterating it.

I'm not going to say you're wrong, but I would like some evidence please.

After all, we have such unambiguous teaching from Pope Eugene IV (ex Cantate Domino):

The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church"s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

Isn't it common knowledge? o_O Pretty much every source I've ever seen mentions yhe inclusivism of post Vatican II theology.

While I have no doubt that there is inclusivist post-Vatican II theology, plenty other modernist heresies arose from Vatican II, yet none of these may be the position of the Church either.

So the results of Vactican II are not binding?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Naysayer
Posts: 746
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9/12/2013 6:12:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/12/2013 10:17:23 AM, Polaris wrote:
FRANCIS: "I start by saying " and this is the fundamental thing " that God"s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart."

It doesn't sound as if Francis is saying all are Christians, it sounds as if he is saying that all people may be forgiven IF they seek God with a sincere heart. An atheist that seeks God with a sincere heart, isn't really an atheist at that point. No?

The only reason this is a newsworthy is that traditionally it has always been held that denying Jesus, is an unforgivable sin. Francis seems to be saying, there are no unforgivable sins.

I was going to say you shouldn't have to explain what the man said and let his words speak for him, but a study of what he actually said will indicate he didn't say anything.

http://www.repubblica.it...

When asked about the Jews, he said that they believed and were waiting on God. It's more interesting what he doesn't say: That they found salvation.

The statement about those that don't believe in God obeying their conscience doesn't really tell what is gained from that. You're disbelieving God. You're following your conscience. Are you good? Who knows? It seems the Pope's not willing to say, but he'll stroke your hopes just so you're happy with him.

In regards to absolute truth, he sums it up by saying the question needs to be reformed and fails to reform the question.

The entire letter is a perfectly bland non-dogmatic ice cream cone meant to make you feel good about the man and his church and carefully crafted to speak to a people that doesn't like to hear the truth. And the only way to appeal to those is to not give it to them.

It would leave the uninformed with the idea that we're all ok. And anyone that would use a worldwide stage to declare we're all ok and call themselves Christian is sickening to me.

I also find it funny that the man states his Encyclical rests on the authority of the Pauline Epistles and the book of John, but it's his Encyclical that he's touting. No small wonder since the authority of his office is what is being called into question by the Church and the world.
Naysayer
Posts: 746
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9/12/2013 6:23:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/12/2013 4:29:54 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 9/12/2013 6:48:03 AM, Naysayer wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk...

In a move that is not really unique in the Catholic religion when striving for power, ascendancy, or relevance, the Pope abandons pretense of true Christianity and just sort of makes it up as he goes along, twisting scripture to suit his needs and dices up truth, again ensuring Catholicism's firm position of Best in Show in the Cult Category.

Welcome to the new age.

The Catholic Church is Two Thousand years old!!
Most Baptists trace their heritage to early 17th-century C.E. differences with the Church of England and the subsequent decision to form Christian communities with local autonomy, an emphasis on believer's baptism, and an understanding of the church as primarily a community of believers.

Naysayer Catholic' believe the scriptures!!!
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

Do you see it?? (above) "Baptism MAKES DISCIPLES!"
Naysayer Disciples are Jesus' brothers.. Baptism saves!

Acts 2:40
With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Do you see it?? (above) "Baptism ADDS people to Jesus' Body!"
Naysayer All IN Jesus are Children of God... Baptism saves!

Matthew 28:20
and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Do you see it?? (above) Jesus is ALWAYS WITH the Holy Catholic Church.. ALWAYS WITH means he is NOT with your church!!
Naysayer You do not believe what CHRISTIANS have always believed...You somehow think; "Satan overpowered Jesus and Satan TOOK Jesus' body from Jesus!"
You think, the Baptist church needs to restore Jesus' body back to him!!!
You MUST reject the scriptures to be Baptist! If you accepted the scriptures you would have to be Catholic!

John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever"

Naysayer The Holy Spirit is FOREVER WITH the one Church Jesus established.. The Holy Catholic Church!

You MUST reject the scriptures (above) and many more to be Baptist!

The Holy Catholic Church is a political contrivance and a murdering whore, friend.

I agree that Christ died for the church, his bride. You won't find the ridiculous institution called Roman Catholicism in the Bible, though. There's no such monster described as the church.
Naysayer
Posts: 746
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9/12/2013 6:26:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/12/2013 6:06:34 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/12/2013 10:55:17 AM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 9/12/2013 9:13:13 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
http://theophilogue.com...


At 9/12/2013 8:41:58 AM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 9/12/2013 7:38:14 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/12/2013 6:48:03 AM, Naysayer wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk...

In a move that is not really unique in the Catholic religion when striving for power, ascendancy, or relevance, the Pope abandons pretense of true Christianity and just sort of makes it up as he goes along, twisting scripture to suit his needs and dices up truth, again ensuring Catholicism's firm position of Best in Show in the Cult Category.

Welcome to the new age.

Not sure where you've been at but the idea of "anonymous Christians" (ala Karl Rahner) been around for a while, and the Church has had the official stance of inclusivism since Vatican II, I think. (Catholics correct me if I'm wrong here.) He's just reiterating it.

I'm not going to say you're wrong, but I would like some evidence please.

After all, we have such unambiguous teaching from Pope Eugene IV (ex Cantate Domino):

The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church"s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

Isn't it common knowledge? o_O Pretty much every source I've ever seen mentions yhe inclusivism of post Vatican II theology.

While I have no doubt that there is inclusivist post-Vatican II theology, plenty other modernist heresies arose from Vatican II, yet none of these may be the position of the Church either.

So the results of Vactican II are not binding?

Even for a Catholic, I would say there's nothing binding in the Church that isn't spelled out in the Bible. The Pope has no special dispensation to be the mouthpiece of God.
Naysayer
Posts: 746
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9/12/2013 6:31:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/12/2013 6:00:12 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 9/12/2013 10:17:23 AM, Polaris wrote:
FRANCIS: "I start by saying " and this is the fundamental thing " that God"s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart."

It doesn't sound as if Francis is saying all are Christians, it sounds as if he is saying that all people may be forgiven IF they seek God with a sincere heart. An atheist that seeks God with a sincere heart, isn't really an atheist at that point. No?

The only reason this is a newsworthy is that traditionally it has always been held that denying Jesus, is an unforgivable sin. Francis seems to be saying, there are no unforgivable sins.

Polaris The unforgivable sin is denying the Holy Spirit!! The SAVED turning his back on salvation!! KNOWING the truth and rejecting the truth as a lie is the unforgivable sin!!

The Holy Spirit leads into all truth.. an life long Atheist can't make an unforgivable sin because they never had the truth!
Bishops can make the unforgivable sin, the common man on the street can't!

Dogknox

Blaspheme. The word is blaspheme, not deny. To speak ill of, to rail against. to vilify, to defame. Belief in God is not relevant to the sin.
Naysayer
Posts: 746
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9/12/2013 6:32:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/12/2013 11:32:54 AM, MysticEgg wrote:
I think "striving for power" pretty much sums up all religions, mate.

Indeed. It was the religious crowd that crucified Christ.
ExsurgeDomine
Posts: 176
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9/12/2013 6:44:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/12/2013 6:06:34 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/12/2013 10:55:17 AM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 9/12/2013 9:13:13 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
http://theophilogue.com...


At 9/12/2013 8:41:58 AM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 9/12/2013 7:38:14 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/12/2013 6:48:03 AM, Naysayer wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk...

In a move that is not really unique in the Catholic religion when striving for power, ascendancy, or relevance, the Pope abandons pretense of true Christianity and just sort of makes it up as he goes along, twisting scripture to suit his needs and dices up truth, again ensuring Catholicism's firm position of Best in Show in the Cult Category.

Welcome to the new age.

Not sure where you've been at but the idea of "anonymous Christians" (ala Karl Rahner) been around for a while, and the Church has had the official stance of inclusivism since Vatican II, I think. (Catholics correct me if I'm wrong here.) He's just reiterating it.

I'm not going to say you're wrong, but I would like some evidence please.

After all, we have such unambiguous teaching from Pope Eugene IV (ex Cantate Domino):

The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church"s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

Isn't it common knowledge? o_O Pretty much every source I've ever seen mentions yhe inclusivism of post Vatican II theology.

While I have no doubt that there is inclusivist post-Vatican II theology, plenty other modernist heresies arose from Vatican II, yet none of these may be the position of the Church either.

So the results of Vactican II are not binding?

That's not exactly what I meant (although I do believe Vatican II to be false, dead wrong).

Vatican II in many places 'clarified' standing dogma by introducing unnecessary ambiguity, a perfect example being Dei Verbum, which I'll just briefly use as an example here to explain my point.

Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation.

This can be read two ways; firstly that everything in the Sacred Scriptures placed there for the sake of salvation is without error, but it is possible that some erroneous things not placed for the sake of salvation are still present, secondly that everything in the Sacred Scriptures was placed there for the sake of salvation and is all without error. Many have now taken up the former view, however Pope Leo XIII wrote in Providentissimus Deus:

It is absolutely wrong and forbidden, either to narrow inspiration to certain parts only of Holy Scripture, or to admit that the sacred writer has erred.

Therefore we are obliged to regard the latter interpretation as proper, and the former as false, dead wrong.

Inclusivism is (probably) comparable to this, so unless you can provide proof that the actual stance of the Church is in fact inclusivist, I am not inclined to believe that is truly the case.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,070
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9/12/2013 6:52:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/12/2013 6:44:47 PM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 9/12/2013 6:06:34 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/12/2013 10:55:17 AM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 9/12/2013 9:13:13 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
http://theophilogue.com...


At 9/12/2013 8:41:58 AM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 9/12/2013 7:38:14 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/12/2013 6:48:03 AM, Naysayer wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk...

In a move that is not really unique in the Catholic religion when striving for power, ascendancy, or relevance, the Pope abandons pretense of true Christianity and just sort of makes it up as he goes along, twisting scripture to suit his needs and dices up truth, again ensuring Catholicism's firm position of Best in Show in the Cult Category.

Welcome to the new age.

Not sure where you've been at but the idea of "anonymous Christians" (ala Karl Rahner) been around for a while, and the Church has had the official stance of inclusivism since Vatican II, I think. (Catholics correct me if I'm wrong here.) He's just reiterating it.

I'm not going to say you're wrong, but I would like some evidence please.

After all, we have such unambiguous teaching from Pope Eugene IV (ex Cantate Domino):

The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church"s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

Isn't it common knowledge? o_O Pretty much every source I've ever seen mentions yhe inclusivism of post Vatican II theology.

While I have no doubt that there is inclusivist post-Vatican II theology, plenty other modernist heresies arose from Vatican II, yet none of these may be the position of the Church either.

So the results of Vactican II are not binding?

That's not exactly what I meant (although I do believe Vatican II to be false, dead wrong).

Vatican II in many places 'clarified' standing dogma by introducing unnecessary ambiguity, a perfect example being Dei Verbum, which I'll just briefly use as an example here to explain my point.

Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation.

This can be read two ways; firstly that everything in the Sacred Scriptures placed there for the sake of salvation is without error, but it is possible that some erroneous things not placed for the sake of salvation are still present, secondly that everything in the Sacred Scriptures was placed there for the sake of salvation and is all without error. Many have now taken up the former view, however Pope Leo XIII wrote in Providentissimus Deus:

It is absolutely wrong and forbidden, either to narrow inspiration to certain parts only of Holy Scripture, or to admit that the sacred writer has erred.

Therefore we are obliged to regard the latter interpretation as proper, and the former as false, dead wrong.

Inclusivism is (probably) comparable to this, so unless you can provide proof that the actual stance of the Church is in fact inclusivist, I am not inclined to believe that is truly the case.

1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God"s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

The Church is the Authority!!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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9/12/2013 7:06:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/12/2013 6:44:47 PM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:

Inclusivism is (probably) comparable to this, so unless you can provide proof that the actual stance of the Church is in fact inclusivist, I am not inclined to believe that is truly the case.

This seems like a clear statement to me.

"Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh. On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.
"Lumen gentium 16"

http://en.wikipedia.org...
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Polaris
Posts: 1,120
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9/12/2013 7:35:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/12/2013 6:12:53 PM, Naysayer wrote:
At 9/12/2013 10:17:23 AM, Polaris wrote:
FRANCIS: "I start by saying " and this is the fundamental thing " that God"s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart."

It doesn't sound as if Francis is saying all are Christians, it sounds as if he is saying that all people may be forgiven IF they seek God with a sincere heart. An atheist that seeks God with a sincere heart, isn't really an atheist at that point. No?

The only reason this is a newsworthy is that traditionally it has always been held that denying Jesus, is an unforgivable sin. Francis seems to be saying, there are no unforgivable sins.

I was going to say you shouldn't have to explain what the man said and let his words speak for him, but a study of what he actually said will indicate he didn't say anything.

http://www.repubblica.it...

When asked about the Jews, he said that they believed and were waiting on God. It's more interesting what he doesn't say: That they found salvation.

The statement about those that don't believe in God obeying their conscience doesn't really tell what is gained from that. You're disbelieving God. You're following your conscience. Are you good? Who knows? It seems the Pope's not willing to say, but he'll stroke your hopes just so you're happy with him.

In regards to absolute truth, he sums it up by saying the question needs to be reformed and fails to reform the question.

The entire letter is a perfectly bland non-dogmatic ice cream cone meant to make you feel good about the man and his church and carefully crafted to speak to a people that doesn't like to hear the truth. And the only way to appeal to those is to not give it to them.

It would leave the uninformed with the idea that we're all ok. And anyone that would use a worldwide stage to declare we're all ok and call themselves Christian is sickening to me.

I also find it funny that the man states his Encyclical rests on the authority of the Pauline Epistles and the book of John, but it's his Encyclical that he's touting. No small wonder since the authority of his office is what is being called into question by the Church and the world.

Delving past your soapbox rant, you surely realize that he wasn't stating what you accuse him of in the title of this forum topic, yes?
ExsurgeDomine
Posts: 176
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9/12/2013 10:29:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/12/2013 7:06:49 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/12/2013 6:44:47 PM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
Inclusivism is (probably) comparable to this, so unless you can provide proof that the actual stance of the Church is in fact inclusivist, I am not inclined to believe that is truly the case.

This seems like a clear statement to me.

"Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh. On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.
"Lumen gentium 16"

http://en.wikipedia.org...

That does seem pretty explicit, and I now see little reason to doubt that it is the view of the novus ordo church.
rjohnson741
Posts: 215
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9/12/2013 11:03:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/12/2013 7:38:14 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/12/2013 6:48:03 AM, Naysayer wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk...

In a move that is not really unique in the Catholic religion when striving for power, ascendancy, or relevance, the Pope abandons pretense of true Christianity and just sort of makes it up as he goes along, twisting scripture to suit his needs and dices up truth, again ensuring Catholicism's firm position of Best in Show in the Cult Category.

Welcome to the new age.

Not sure where you've been at but the idea of "anonymous Christians" (ala Karl Rahner) been around for a while, and the Church has had the official stance of inclusivism since Vatican II, I think. (Catholics correct me if I'm wrong here.) He's just reiterating it.

Actually the Catholic Church has always tolerated a hypothetical or hopeful universalism in that it is permissable to hope and pray for the salvation of all men. The heresy is to assert that this must happen. Most protestants tend to regard this hopeful or hypothetical universalism as heretical in pratice, if not always in theory.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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9/12/2013 11:20:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/12/2013 10:29:14 PM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
At 9/12/2013 7:06:49 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/12/2013 6:44:47 PM, ExsurgeDomine wrote:
Inclusivism is (probably) comparable to this, so unless you can provide proof that the actual stance of the Church is in fact inclusivist, I am not inclined to believe that is truly the case.

This seems like a clear statement to me.

"Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh. On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.
"Lumen gentium 16"

http://en.wikipedia.org...

That does seem pretty explicit, and I now see little reason to doubt that it is the view of the novus ordo church.

So are you a sedevacantist?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!