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The Philosophy of Liberty

Reasoning
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12/20/2009 11:48:03 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
* The philosophy of liberty is based on the principle of self-ownership.

o You own your life.

o To deny this is to imply that someone else has a higher claim on your life than you do.

o No other person, or group of persons, owns your life.

o Nor do you own the lives of others.

* You exist in time: future, present and past.

o This is manifest in [respectively]: your life, your liberty and the product of your life and liberty.

o To lose your life is to lose your future.

o To lose your liberty is to lose your present.

o And to lose the product of your life and liberty is to lose the portion of your past that produced it.

* A product of your life and your liberty is your property.

o Property is the fruit of your labour: the product of your time, energy and talents.

o Property is that part of nature that you turn to valuable use.

o Property is the property of others that is given to you by voluntary exchange and mutual consent.

o Two people who exchange property voluntarily are both better off, or they wouldn't do it.

o Only they may rightfully make that decision for themselves.

* At times, some people make use of force or fraud to take from others without voluntary consent.

o The initiation of force or fraud to take life is murder.

o The initiation of force or fraud to take liberty is slavery.

o The initiation of force or fraud to take property is theft.

o It is the same whether these things are done by one person acting alone, by the many acting against the few, or even by officials in fine hats.

* You have the right to protect your life, liberty and justly acquired property from the forceful aggression of others; and you may ask others to help defend you.

o But you do not have the right to initiate force against the life, liberty and property of others.

o Thus you have no right to designate some other person to initiate force against others on your behalf.

* You have the right to seek leaders for yourself, but you have no right to impose rulers onto others.

o No matter how officials are selected, they are only human beings and they have no rights or claims that are higher than other human beings.

o Regardless of the imaginative labels for their behaviour, or the number of people encouraging them, officials have no right to murder, to enslave or to steal.

o You cannot give them any rights that you do not have yourself.

* Since you own your life, you are responsible for your life.

o You do not rent your life from others who demand your obedience.

o Nor are you a slave to others who demand your sacrifice.

o You choose your own goals based on your own values.

o Success and failure are both the necessary incentives to learn and grow.

* Your action on behalf of others, or their action on behalf of you, is virtuous only when it is derived from voluntary mutual consent.

o For virtue can only exist where there is free choice.

o This is the basis of a truly free society.

o It is not only the most practical and humanitarian foundation for human action, it is the most ethical.

* Problems in the world that arise from the initiation of force by government have a solution.

o The solution is for the people of the earth to stop asking government official to initiate force on their behalf.

o Evil does not arise solely from evil people, but also from good people who tolerate the initiation of force as a means to their own ends.

o In this manner, good people have empowered evil people throughout history.

* Having confidence in a free society is to focus on the process of discovery in the marketplace of values, rather than to focus on some imposed vision or goal.

o Using governmental force to impose a vision on others is intellectual sloth, and typically results in unintended, perverse consequences.

* Achieving a free society requires courage—to think, to talk and to act—especially when it is easier to do nothing.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Xer
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12/20/2009 11:54:39 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Government is a necesarry evil. Understand that, please. Anarchy is fail. Learn minarchy [http://en.wikipedia.org...], then you might have some legitimate arguments.
Reasoning
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12/20/2009 12:09:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/20/2009 11:54:39 AM, Nags wrote:
Government is a necesarry evil. Understand that, please. Anarchy is fail. Learn minarchy [http://en.wikipedia.org...], then you might have some legitimate arguments.

The state is a gang of thieves writ large. Understand that, please. Minarchy is fail. Learn some Anarcho-Capitalism [http://en.wikipedia.org...], then you might have some legitimate arguments.

"My whole position was inconsistent [...], there were only two logical possibilities: socialism, or anarchism. Since it was out of the question for me to become a socialist, I found myself pushed by the irresistible logic of the case, a private property anarchist, or, as I would later dub it, an anarcho-capitalist." - Murray Rothbard
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Xer
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12/20/2009 12:11:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/20/2009 12:09:01 PM, Reasoning wrote:
The state is a gang of thieves writ large. Understand that, please. Minarchy is fail. Learn some Anarcho-Capitalism [http://en.wikipedia.org...], then you might have some legitimate arguments.

I've already destroyed all your arguments for anarcho-capitalism. Government is a necesarry evil, and always will be.

"My whole position was inconsistent [...], there were only two logical possibilities: socialism, or anarchism. Since it was out of the question for me to become a socialist, I found myself pushed by the irresistible logic of the case, a private property anarchist, or, as I would later dub it, an anarcho-capitalist." - Murray Rothbard

Socialism and anarchism are apparently the only two political systems now. Rothbard is a dumbass.
I-am-a-panda
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12/20/2009 12:11:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/20/2009 12:09:01 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/20/2009 11:54:39 AM, Nags wrote:
Government is a necesarry evil. Understand that, please. Anarchy is fail. Learn minarchy [http://en.wikipedia.org...], then you might have some legitimate arguments.

The state is a gang of thieves writ large.

Don't like it? Leave the country.

Understand that, please. Minarchy is fail. Learn some Anarcho-Capitalism [http://en.wikipedia.org...], then you might have some legitimate arguments.

Replacing the state with corporations is fail . If the state f**ks up, we can vote in someone new. With corporations, it's a little bit different.

"My whole position was inconsistent [...], there were only two logical possibilities: socialism, or anarchism. Since it was out of the question for me to become a socialist, I found myself pushed by the irresistible logic of the case, a private property anarchist, or, as I would later dub it, an anarcho-capitalist." - Murray Rothbard

Or, a moderate progressive society.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Reasoning
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12/20/2009 12:15:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/20/2009 12:11:08 PM, Nags wrote:
At 12/20/2009 12:09:01 PM, Reasoning wrote:
The state is a gang of thieves writ large. Understand that, please. Minarchy is fail. Learn some Anarcho-Capitalism [http://en.wikipedia.org...], then you might have some legitimate arguments.

I've already destroyed all your arguments for anarcho-capitalism. Government is a necesarry evil, and always will be.

I've already destroyed all your arguments for minarchy. The state is a gang of thieves writ large. If you read the philosophy of liberty you could reason this out.

"My whole position was inconsistent [...], there were only two logical possibilities: socialism, or anarchism. Since it was out of the question for me to become a socialist, I found myself pushed by the irresistible logic of the case, a private property anarchist, or, as I would later dub it, an anarcho-capitalist." - Murray Rothbard

Socialism and anarchism are apparently the only two political systems now. Rothbard is a dumbass.

They are the only non-contradictory political systems.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
I-am-a-panda
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12/20/2009 12:16:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/20/2009 12:11:08 PM, Nags wrote:

I've already destroyed all your arguments for anarcho-capitalism. Government is a necesarry evil, and always will be.

http://diy.despair.com...
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Xer
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12/20/2009 12:17:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/20/2009 12:15:47 PM, Reasoning wrote:
I've already destroyed all your arguments for minarchy. The state is a gang of thieves writ large. If you read the philosophy of liberty you could reason this out.

So are corporations, like Panda said. That doesn't refute minarchy anyway.

They are the only non-contradictory political systems.

Even if I were to forfeit this true, why does it matter?
Reasoning
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12/20/2009 12:22:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/20/2009 12:11:55 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 12/20/2009 12:09:01 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/20/2009 11:54:39 AM, Nags wrote:
Government is a necesarry evil. Understand that, please. Anarchy is fail. Learn minarchy [http://en.wikipedia.org...], then you might have some legitimate arguments.

The state is a gang of thieves writ large.

Don't like it? Leave the country.

Dear I-am-a-panda,

Congratulations! You are a citizen of the newly formed nation of Reasonopolis. Your taxes are due next week. If you do not pay them, you will be thrown into a cage. This is perfectly legitimate because if you do not like it you can leave the country.

Your president,
Reasoning

Understand that, please. Minarchy is fail. Learn some Anarcho-Capitalism [http://en.wikipedia.org...], then you might have some legitimate arguments.

Replacing the state with corporations is fail . If the state f**ks up, we can vote in someone new. With corporations, it's a little bit different.

Abolish the state and replace it with nothing. It is a parasite.

"My whole position was inconsistent [...], there were only two logical possibilities: socialism, or anarchism. Since it was out of the question for me to become a socialist, I found myself pushed by the irresistible logic of the case, a private property anarchist, or, as I would later dub it, an anarcho-capitalist." - Murray Rothbard

Or, a moderate progressive society.

"Capitalism and socialism are two distinct patterns of social organization. Private control of the means of production and public control are contradictory notions and not merely contrary notions. There is no such thing as a mixed economy, a system that would stand midway between capitalism and socialism." - Ludwig von Mises
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Reasoning
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12/20/2009 12:24:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Guy A: "Hey buddy, isn't that your car over there?"
Guy B: "Yeah. So?"
Guy A: "So someone's breaking into it! Look!"
Guy B: "Well, that's the price I pay to live in a civilized country."
Guy A: "Huh? Now he's hot-wiring it. You just gonna stand there?"
Guy B: "I'm willing to contribute to this great society we live in."
Guy A: "What are you talking about? You're being robbed!"
Guy B: "Don't be silly. It's not robbery. It's the will of the people."
Guy A: "What people? Aren't you the one who paid for the car?"
Guy B: "Yeah, but the guy who's taking it is serving the common good."
Guy A: "How does that guy stealing your car help the common good?"
Guy B: "Well, I trust he'll do useful things with my car."
Guy A: "Weren't you going to do useful things with it?"
Guy B: "Yes, but if we each just used our own stuff, there would be chaos!"
Guy A: "Well, you can trade stuff, but that guy just stole your car!!"
Guy B: "No he didn't. By living on this block I agreed to lose my car."
Guy A: "So anyone can swipe your car, and you don't mind?"
Guy B: "Don't be silly! Only the local carjacker can do it."
Guy A: "So whoever decides to be a carjacker is allowed to rob you?"
Guy B: "Well, if I don't like it, I can try to appoint a new local carjacker."
Guy A: "What would be the point of that? The new guy would still steal your car!"
Guy B: "Yes, but he would be representing me while stealing my car."
Guy A: "What does that mean?! How does a thief represent you?"
Guy B: "Because I can ask him to do good things with my car."
Guy A: "And will he listen to you, and do what you want?"
Guy B: "Well, so far they never have. But I keep trying."
Guy A: "Why would you even try?"
Guy B: "You have to participate. Otherwise you can't complain."
Guy A: "Yes I can! I'm not the one claiming that I should be robbed!"
Guy B: "You have to work within the system."
Guy A: "What system? The system made up by the carjackers?"
Guy B: "Of course. It's the civilized thing to do."
Guy A: "Why not oppose carjacking altogether?"
Guy B: "Don't be silly. Every town has to have some carjacking."
Guy A: "So you're just going to keep putting up with being robbed?"
Guy B: "It's not robbery. The carjackers have my implied consent to do it."
Guy A: "What? You told them they could take it?"
Guy B: "No, but by living here, that counts as me giving them permission."
Guy A: "Who says so?"
Guy B: "The carjackers. They say being here counts as agreeing to be robbed."
Guy A: "And you believe them?!"
Guy B: "Look, if you don't like being robbed, leave my neighborhood!"
Guy A: "But I'm saying that you shouldn't be robbed!"
Guy B: "Yes I should, you wacko, fringe kook! Now go away!"
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Xer
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12/20/2009 12:25:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/20/2009 12:22:25 PM, Reasoning wrote:
Dear I-am-a-panda,

Congratulations! You are a citizen of the newly formed nation of Reasonopolis. Your taxes are due next week. If you do not pay them, you will be thrown into a cage. This is perfectly legitimate because if you do not like it you can leave the country.

Your president,
Reasoning

Yea..

Abolish the state and replace it with nothing. It is a parasite.

Lol. That power vacuum will be hell-a crazy. Criminals rule the world. You get raped on a daily basis, and become a personal slave to the richest guy in town. Have fun.

"Capitalism and socialism are two distinct patterns of social organization. Private control of the means of production and public control are contradictory notions and not merely contrary notions. There is no such thing as a mixed economy, a system that would stand midway between capitalism and socialism." - Ludwig von Mises

Yes, there is such thing as a mixed economy. Stupid quote.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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12/20/2009 12:32:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/20/2009 12:22:25 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/20/2009 12:11:55 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 12/20/2009 12:09:01 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/20/2009 11:54:39 AM, Nags wrote:
Government is a necesarry evil. Understand that, please. Anarchy is fail. Learn minarchy [http://en.wikipedia.org...], then you might have some legitimate arguments.

The state is a gang of thieves writ large.

Don't like it? Leave the country.

Dear I-am-a-panda,

Congratulations! You are a citizen of the newly formed nation of Reasonopolis. Your taxes are due next week. If you do not pay them, you will be thrown into a cage. This is perfectly legitimate because if you do not like it you can leave the country.

Your president,
Reasoning

Great, because from those taxes I get various services which are beneficial to me and all of society.


Understand that, please. Minarchy is fail. Learn some Anarcho-Capitalism [http://en.wikipedia.org...], then you might have some legitimate arguments.

Replacing the state with corporations is fail . If the state f**ks up, we can vote in someone new. With corporations, it's a little bit different.

Abolish the state and replace it with nothing. It is a parasite.

And then:

1) Gangs take over and even more corruption occurs.

2) Corporations take over, who's only Ethos is to make a profit. With corporations, you have no voice. You dont' have a chance to change the leadership of a corporation.


"My whole position was inconsistent [...], there were only two logical possibilities: socialism, or anarchism. Since it was out of the question for me to become a socialist, I found myself pushed by the irresistible logic of the case, a private property anarchist, or, as I would later dub it, an anarcho-capitalist." - Murray Rothbard

Or, a moderate progressive society.

"Capitalism and socialism are two distinct patterns of social organization. Private control of the means of production and public control are contradictory notions and not merely contrary notions. There is no such thing as a mixed economy, a system that would stand midway between capitalism and socialism." - Ludwig von Mises

It's impossible to speculate whether a certain system would or would not work 100% of the time. Each country has it's own needs. A small Caribbean island may be suited to a more private controlled economy due to it's inability to provide decent services for such a small population.

Meanwhile, a huge country such as China may be suited to Socialism.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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12/20/2009 12:33:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/20/2009 12:25:58 PM, Nags wrote:
At 12/20/2009 12:22:25 PM, Reasoning wrote:
Dear I-am-a-panda,

Congratulations! You are a citizen of the newly formed nation of Reasonopolis. Your taxes are due next week. If you do not pay them, you will be thrown into a cage. This is perfectly legitimate because if you do not like it you can leave the country.

Your president,
Reasoning

Yea..

Congratulations Nags you too are a citizen. I expect the taxes come next week.

Abolish the state and replace it with nothing. It is a parasite.

Lol. That power vacuum will be hell-a crazy. Criminals rule the world.

Unlike now. Oh wait. "The state is a gang of thieves writ large" - Murray Rothbard

You get raped on a daily basis, and become a personal slave to the richest guy in town. Have fun.

Terrorists will smuggle dirty bombs into freshly cleaned restrooms.
Perverts will turn your children gay with dangerous movies and video games. People you don't know of will engage in behavior you don't approve of.
Without a government enforced minimum wage everyone will make one penny an hour.
Without public schools kids will join gangs and never learn the Pledge of Allegiance.
And besides who will build the roads?

http://anarchyinyourhead.com...

"Capitalism and socialism are two distinct patterns of social organization. Private control of the means of production and public control are contradictory notions and not merely contrary notions. There is no such thing as a mixed economy, a system that would stand midway between capitalism and socialism." - Ludwig von Mises

Yes, there is such thing as a mixed economy. Stupid quote.

"The issue is always the same: the government or the market. There is no third solution." - Ludwig von Mises
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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12/20/2009 12:33:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/20/2009 12:33:12 PM, Reasoning wrote:

"The issue is always the same: the government or the market. There is no third solution." - Ludwig von Mises

You really believe Von Mises is infallible?
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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12/20/2009 12:36:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/20/2009 12:33:12 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/20/2009 12:25:58 PM, Nags wrote:

Yes, there is such thing as a mixed economy. Stupid quote.

"The issue is always the same: the government or the market. There is no third solution." - Ludwig von Mises

Actually, this quote suggests otherwise

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need " - Karl Marx
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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12/20/2009 12:37:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/20/2009 12:32:33 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 12/20/2009 12:22:25 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/20/2009 12:11:55 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 12/20/2009 12:09:01 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/20/2009 11:54:39 AM, Nags wrote:
Government is a necesarry evil. Understand that, please. Anarchy is fail. Learn minarchy [http://en.wikipedia.org...], then you might have some legitimate arguments.

The state is a gang of thieves writ large.

Don't like it? Leave the country.

Dear I-am-a-panda,

Congratulations! You are a citizen of the newly formed nation of Reasonopolis. Your taxes are due next week. If you do not pay them, you will be thrown into a cage. This is perfectly legitimate because if you do not like it you can leave the country.

Your president,
Reasoning

Great, because from those taxes I get various services which are beneficial to me and all of society.

Guy B: "Don't be silly. It's not robbery. It's the will of the people."
Guy A: "What people? Aren't you the one who paid for the car?"
Guy B: "Yeah, but the guy who's taking it is serving the common good."
Guy A: "How does that guy stealing your car help the common good?"
Guy B: "Well, I trust he'll do useful things with my car."
Guy A: "Weren't you going to do useful things with it?"
Guy B: "Yes, but if we each just used our own stuff, there would be chaos!"

Understand that, please. Minarchy is fail. Learn some Anarcho-Capitalism [http://en.wikipedia.org...], then you might have some legitimate arguments.

Replacing the state with corporations is fail . If the state f**ks up, we can vote in someone new. With corporations, it's a little bit different.

Abolish the state and replace it with nothing. It is a parasite.

And then:

1) Gangs take over and even more corruption occurs.

Unlike now. Oh wait.

2) Corporations take over, who's only Ethos is to make a profit.

On a free market what harm can they do?

With corporations, you have no voice. You dont' have a chance to change the leadership of a corporation.

Unlike now. Oh wait.

"My whole position was inconsistent [...], there were only two logical possibilities: socialism, or anarchism. Since it was out of the question for me to become a socialist, I found myself pushed by the irresistible logic of the case, a private property anarchist, or, as I would later dub it, an anarcho-capitalist." - Murray Rothbard

Or, a moderate progressive society.

"Capitalism and socialism are two distinct patterns of social organization. Private control of the means of production and public control are contradictory notions and not merely contrary notions. There is no such thing as a mixed economy, a system that would stand midway between capitalism and socialism." - Ludwig von Mises

It's impossible to speculate whether a certain system would or would not work 100% of the time. Each country has it's own needs. A small Caribbean island may be suited to a more private controlled economy due to it's inability to provide decent services for such a small population.

Countries don't have needs.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Xer
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12/20/2009 12:41:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/20/2009 12:33:12 PM, Reasoning wrote:
Congratulations Nags you too are a citizen. I expect the taxes come next week.

Kay. In return, I get the strongest military in the world, a police force, and other means to protect me. I get free schooling. I get heat, water, energy. Etc, etc, etc.

Unlike now. Oh wait. "The state is a gang of thieves writ large" - Murray Rothbard

That doesn't refute what I said.

Terrorists will smuggle dirty bombs into freshly cleaned restrooms.
Perverts will turn your children gay with dangerous movies and video games. People you don't know of will engage in behavior you don't approve of.
Without a government enforced minimum wage everyone will make one penny an hour.
Without public schools kids will join gangs and never learn the Pledge of Allegiance.
And besides who will build the roads?

http://anarchyinyourhead.com...

wut

"The issue is always the same: the government or the market. There is no third solution." - Ludwig von Mises

I wasn't aware von Mises had Pope Powers?!?!? Apparently, he is infallible. Praise the lord, that is, Ludwig von Mises.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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12/20/2009 12:41:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/20/2009 12:37:40 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/20/2009 12:32:33 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 12/20/2009 12:22:25 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/20/2009 12:11:55 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 12/20/2009 12:09:01 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/20/2009 11:54:39 AM, Nags wrote:
Government is a necesarry evil. Understand that, please. Anarchy is fail. Learn minarchy [http://en.wikipedia.org...], then you might have some legitimate arguments.

The state is a gang of thieves writ large.

Don't like it? Leave the country.

Dear I-am-a-panda,

Congratulations! You are a citizen of the newly formed nation of Reasonopolis. Your taxes are due next week. If you do not pay them, you will be thrown into a cage. This is perfectly legitimate because if you do not like it you can leave the country.

Your president,
Reasoning

Great, because from those taxes I get various services which are beneficial to me and all of society.

Guy B: "Don't be silly. It's not robbery. It's the will of the people."
Guy A: "What people? Aren't you the one who paid for the car?"
Guy B: "Yeah, but the guy who's taking it is serving the common good."
Guy A: "How does that guy stealing your car help the common good?"
Guy B: "Well, I trust he'll do useful things with my car."
Guy A: "Weren't you going to do useful things with it?"
Guy B: "Yes, but if we each just used our own stuff, there would be chaos!"

Whats the car being used for?


Understand that, please. Minarchy is fail. Learn some Anarcho-Capitalism [http://en.wikipedia.org...], then you might have some legitimate arguments.

Replacing the state with corporations is fail . If the state f**ks up, we can vote in someone new. With corporations, it's a little bit different.

Abolish the state and replace it with nothing. It is a parasite.

And then:

1) Gangs take over and even more corruption occurs.

Unlike now. Oh wait.

Elected thugs > Unelected thugs


2) Corporations take over, who's only Ethos is to make a profit.

On a free market what harm can they do?

Lots. No medium to check their accounts, no regulator to check they aren't screwing over their customers, etc.


With corporations, you have no voice. You dont' have a chance to change the leadership of a corporation.

Unlike now. Oh wait.

No, I have a voice.


"My whole position was inconsistent [...], there were only two logical possibilities: socialism, or anarchism. Since it was out of the question for me to become a socialist, I found myself pushed by the irresistible logic of the case, a private property anarchist, or, as I would later dub it, an anarcho-capitalist." - Murray Rothbard

Or, a moderate progressive society.

"Capitalism and socialism are two distinct patterns of social organization. Private control of the means of production and public control are contradictory notions and not merely contrary notions. There is no such thing as a mixed economy, a system that would stand midway between capitalism and socialism." - Ludwig von Mises

It's impossible to speculate whether a certain system would or would not work 100% of the time. Each country has it's own needs. A small Caribbean island may be suited to a more private controlled economy due to it's inability to provide decent services for such a small population.

Countries don't have needs.

The accumulated needs of society is the needs of a country.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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12/20/2009 12:46:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/20/2009 12:41:52 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 12/20/2009 12:37:40 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/20/2009 12:32:33 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 12/20/2009 12:22:25 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/20/2009 12:11:55 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 12/20/2009 12:09:01 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/20/2009 11:54:39 AM, Nags wrote:
Government is a necesarry evil. Understand that, please. Anarchy is fail. Learn minarchy [http://en.wikipedia.org...], then you might have some legitimate arguments.

The state is a gang of thieves writ large.

Don't like it? Leave the country.

Dear I-am-a-panda,

Congratulations! You are a citizen of the newly formed nation of Reasonopolis. Your taxes are due next week. If you do not pay them, you will be thrown into a cage. This is perfectly legitimate because if you do not like it you can leave the country.

Your president,
Reasoning

Great, because from those taxes I get various services which are beneficial to me and all of society.

Guy B: "Don't be silly. It's not robbery. It's the will of the people."
Guy A: "What people? Aren't you the one who paid for the car?"
Guy B: "Yeah, but the guy who's taking it is serving the common good."
Guy A: "How does that guy stealing your car help the common good?"
Guy B: "Well, I trust he'll do useful things with my car."
Guy A: "Weren't you going to do useful things with it?"
Guy B: "Yes, but if we each just used our own stuff, there would be chaos!"

Whats the car being used for?

He pawns it and gives a few bucks to some homeless people and then gives the bulk to his friends to keep him in power.

Understand that, please. Minarchy is fail. Learn some Anarcho-Capitalism [http://en.wikipedia.org...], then you might have some legitimate arguments.

Replacing the state with corporations is fail . If the state f**ks up, we can vote in someone new. With corporations, it's a little bit different.

Abolish the state and replace it with nothing. It is a parasite.

And then:

1) Gangs take over and even more corruption occurs.

Unlike now. Oh wait.

Elected thugs > Unelected thugs

No thugs > thugs.

2) Corporations take over, who's only Ethos is to make a profit.

On a free market what harm can they do?

Lots. No medium to check their accounts, no regulator to check they aren't screwing over their customers, etc.

Free market: a market where all decisions regarding transfer of money, goods (including capital goods), and services are voluntary

With corporations, you have no voice. You dont' have a chance to change the leadership of a corporation.

Unlike now. Oh wait.

No, I have a voice.

Sure you do. If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal.

"My whole position was inconsistent [...], there were only two logical possibilities: socialism, or anarchism. Since it was out of the question for me to become a socialist, I found myself pushed by the irresistible logic of the case, a private property anarchist, or, as I would later dub it, an anarcho-capitalist." - Murray Rothbard

Or, a moderate progressive society.

"Capitalism and socialism are two distinct patterns of social organization. Private control of the means of production and public control are contradictory notions and not merely contrary notions. There is no such thing as a mixed economy, a system that would stand midway between capitalism and socialism." - Ludwig von Mises

It's impossible to speculate whether a certain system would or would not work 100% of the time. Each country has it's own needs. A small Caribbean island may be suited to a more private controlled economy due to it's inability to provide decent services for such a small population.

Countries don't have needs.

The accumulated needs of society is the needs of a country.

Society has no needs. Methodological individualism.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Reasoning
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12/20/2009 12:51:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
http://anarchyinyourhead.com...
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
resolutionsmasher
Posts: 579
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12/20/2009 7:01:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/20/2009 12:15:47 PM, Reasoning wrote:
They are the only non-contradictory political systems.

Fool. Socialism is perfect in theory yet rubbish in reality. This CONTRADICTION places such government at a level of child's play and psycho delusions.

Anarchy on the other hand is cunning. It is deviously devised by the strong to lure the foolish weak into believing they have a chance when set alone to fend for themselves. Once done the strong use this bestial government to enslave, kill, or fleece the general population. "Evil at its core," as Franklin Delano Roosevelt once labeled it.
In the relationship between Obama and the rest of the U.S..... I think the U.S. is getting the short end of the hockey stick.
Reasoning
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12/20/2009 7:18:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/20/2009 7:01:56 PM, resolutionsmasher wrote:
At 12/20/2009 12:15:47 PM, Reasoning wrote:
They are the only non-contradictory political systems.

Fool. Socialism is perfect in theory yet rubbish in reality. This CONTRADICTION places such government at a level of child's play and psycho delusions.

If something works in theory, then by definition it works in practice. If a theory doesn't work in practice, then it's not a good theory!

Communism doesn't work in theory, therefore it doesn't work in practice.

Anarchy on the other hand is cunning. It is deviously devised by the strong to lure the foolish weak into believing they have a chance when set alone to fend for themselves.

That's not what anarchism is.

Once done the strong use this bestial government to enslave, kill, or fleece the general population.

That is what governments do.

"Evil at its core," as Franklin Delano Roosevelt once labeled it.

He was one to talk.

Where do I start:

The internment of 110,000 Japanese-Americans; enslaving them and putting them in cages for years simply based on where they happened to be born?

Confiscating gold?

His disastrous economic policy?
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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12/21/2009 12:11:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
More anarchist nonsense.

Again, how are disputes settled? How is anti-social behaviour punished. How is society to function without any rules?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Reasoning
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12/21/2009 11:24:35 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/21/2009 12:11:51 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
More anarchist nonsense.

Again, how are disputes settled?

That is up to the market.

How is anti-social behaviour punished.

Define anti-social behavior.

How is society to function without any rules?

You don't need rulers to have rules. Rules are just opinions that others have that they use to determine when and how to act.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
wjmelements
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12/21/2009 2:31:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/20/2009 12:11:08 PM, Nags wrote:
Socialism and anarchism are apparently the only two political systems now. Rothbard is a dumbass.

http://fallacyfiles.org...
...the only two *consistent* systems. But practicality and consistency are two different things. Few general premises are true all of the time. In this case: "Functios of government are best privatized" cannot extend to the use of force without the proletariat being enslaved to the burgeoisie.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
feverish
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12/22/2009 12:48:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/21/2009 11:24:35 AM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/21/2009 12:11:51 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:


Again, how are disputes settled?

That is up to the market.

What could be more unjust? The rich could freely abuse the poor.