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Apostasy

MadCornishBiker
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9/20/2013 2:35:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
apos"ta"sy noun \ə-G2;p"s-tə-sē\
plural apos"ta"sies

Definition of APOSTASY

1 : renunciation of a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection

So, there are two ways you can be Apostate.

The first is simply to turn your back on you original faith.

The other is to deny that faith or to teach something other than what that faith should teach.

For instance. Someone who professes to believe that the trinity teaching is true and yet believes that Christ and God are not equal and one is in subjection to the other is an Apostate against any faith which teaches the trinity.

In scriptural terms an Apostate is one who turns against or denies the truth as taught by God, and later echoed by his son.

Therefore, since at no pint did Christ every teach that he was equal to his father anyone who professes that trinity as a teaching is an Apostate against the teachings of Jesus, and is therefore an Apostate Christian.

Jesus taught:

That he was sent by his father, who had the authority over him to do so. (John 17:3)

That he could do nothing of his own initiative. John 5:19

That only his Father could rightly be called good, not him. Luke 18:19

That he had a God, his Father, the same God his disciples worshipped. John 20:17

That he was God's son, not God himself. John 10:36

There are many other instances of Jesus denying being God, but claiming to be his son, which means that any who profess the trinity are Apostates against Christianity.

Scripture is very clear about what the end of all Apostates against Christ's teachings will be.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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9/20/2013 5:00:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/20/2013 2:35:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
apos"ta"sy noun \ə-G2;p"s-tə-sē\
plural apos"ta"sies

Definition of APOSTASY

1 : renunciation of a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection

So, there are two ways you can be Apostate.

The first is simply to turn your back on you original faith.

The other is to deny that faith or to teach something other than what that faith should teach.

For instance. Someone who professes to believe that the trinity teaching is true and yet believes that Christ and God are not equal and one is in subjection to the other is an Apostate against any faith which teaches the trinity.

In scriptural terms an Apostate is one who turns against or denies the truth as taught by God, and later echoed by his son.

Therefore, since at no pint did Christ every teach that he was equal to his father anyone who professes that trinity as a teaching is an Apostate against the teachings of Jesus, and is therefore an Apostate Christian.

Jesus taught:

That he was sent by his father, who had the authority over him to do so. (John 17:3)

That he could do nothing of his own initiative. John 5:19

That only his Father could rightly be called good, not him. Luke 18:19

That he had a God, his Father, the same God his disciples worshipped. John 20:17

That he was God's son, not God himself. John 10:36

There are many other instances of Jesus denying being God, but claiming to be his son, which means that any who profess the trinity are Apostates against Christianity.

Scripture is very clear about what the end of all Apostates against Christ's teachings will be.

You have the wrong definition of apostasy. The apostasy was planned by our Creator for about a 1700 year period beginning at the time the Rome set up a governmental institute called the Vatican after Rome killed all the true saints in the first three centuries. This religious government forced all the Christ-like churches in the Roman Empire to follow it's new laws that are totally against the laws of our Creator.

This planned apostasy was prophesied to happen and here are a few prophecies to show this apostasy when religious ideas would replace the true gospel spoken through the saints of God. The religion of Christianity was the beginning of this apostasy which kept the Truth from being known by God's people.

Amos 8
11: "Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord GOD, "when I will send a famine on the land; not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD.
12: They shall wander from sea to sea, and from north to east; they shall run to and fro, to seek the word of the LORD, but they shall not find it.

Daniel 2:
36: "This was the dream; now we will tell the king its interpretation.
37: You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory,
38: and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the sons of men, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the air, making you rule over them all -- you are the head of gold.
39: After you shall arise another kingdom inferior to you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.
40: And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things; and like iron which crushes, it shall break and crush all these.
41: And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the miry clay.
42: And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle.
43: As you saw the iron mixed with miry clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay.
44: And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand for ever;
45: just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be hereafter. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure."

Daniel 9
27: And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

The feet of iron and clay describes Christianity. The feet of iron is the Roman Catholic Church with it's Vatican as the ruling government. The feet of clay desribes the Protestant Churches that break up into many denominations ( close to 40,000 now ). The gold describes the Babylonian empire, the silver is the Persian-Medes empire, the bronze is the Greek empire and iron describes the Roman empire. The official religion of Christianity was formed by the Roman government through the Vatican after Rome killed all the true saints who were created as the invisible Kingdom of God that will never be destroyed. This invisible Kingdom of God will destroy all these earthly kingdoms ( Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, Vatican and Christianity ) on the last day of this first age.

The "last half of the week" in Daniel 9: 27 describes the time when Christianity reigned on this earth until the end of this age. The "beast" that Daniel was describing is God's plan to teach men how to build things ( false gods ) until the technology was in place in the last days to help God's last saint understand that we're created as invisible energy. Now that God used His last saint to get this information to make His invisible heavenly kingdom understood, this age can end. Once His last saint is killed, it will end the "1,000 year reign of Christ", this is the time of the " strong covenant for one week" of Daniel 9: 27.

So the apostasy is still going strong in the minds of unbelievers who won't find the Truth during this age. Only the believers who hear the Truth spoken by His last saint will learn about this apostasy and what the future has for them.
slo1
Posts: 4,354
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9/20/2013 5:39:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/20/2013 2:35:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
apos"ta"sy noun \ə-G2;p"s-tə-sē\
plural apos"ta"sies

Definition of APOSTASY

1 : renunciation of a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection

So, there are two ways you can be Apostate.

The first is simply to turn your back on you original faith.

The other is to deny that faith or to teach something other than what that faith should teach.

For instance. Someone who professes to believe that the trinity teaching is true and yet believes that Christ and God are not equal and one is in subjection to the other is an Apostate against any faith which teaches the trinity.

In scriptural terms an Apostate is one who turns against or denies the truth as taught by God, and later echoed by his son.

Therefore, since at no pint did Christ every teach that he was equal to his father anyone who professes that trinity as a teaching is an Apostate against the teachings of Jesus, and is therefore an Apostate Christian.

Jesus taught:

That he was sent by his father, who had the authority over him to do so. (John 17:3)

That he could do nothing of his own initiative. John 5:19

That only his Father could rightly be called good, not him. Luke 18:19

That he had a God, his Father, the same God his disciples worshipped. John 20:17

That he was God's son, not God himself. John 10:36

There are many other instances of Jesus denying being God, but claiming to be his son, which means that any who profess the trinity are Apostates against Christianity.

Scripture is very clear about what the end of all Apostates against Christ's teachings will be.

What does John 10:30 say?
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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9/20/2013 5:42:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/20/2013 5:39:17 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/20/2013 2:35:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
apos"ta"sy noun \ə-G2;p"s-tə-sē\
plural apos"ta"sies

Definition of APOSTASY

1 : renunciation of a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection

So, there are two ways you can be Apostate.

The first is simply to turn your back on you original faith.

The other is to deny that faith or to teach something other than what that faith should teach.

For instance. Someone who professes to believe that the trinity teaching is true and yet believes that Christ and God are not equal and one is in subjection to the other is an Apostate against any faith which teaches the trinity.

In scriptural terms an Apostate is one who turns against or denies the truth as taught by God, and later echoed by his son.

Therefore, since at no pint did Christ every teach that he was equal to his father anyone who professes that trinity as a teaching is an Apostate against the teachings of Jesus, and is therefore an Apostate Christian.

Jesus taught:

That he was sent by his father, who had the authority over him to do so. (John 17:3)

That he could do nothing of his own initiative. John 5:19

That only his Father could rightly be called good, not him. Luke 18:19

That he had a God, his Father, the same God his disciples worshipped. John 20:17

That he was God's son, not God himself. John 10:36

There are many other instances of Jesus denying being God, but claiming to be his son, which means that any who profess the trinity are Apostates against Christianity.

Scripture is very clear about what the end of all Apostates against Christ's teachings will be.

What does John 10:30 say?

Read my testimony above about the apostasy that started with Christianity and won't end until Christianity and all religions of this world are destroyed by our Creator.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/21/2013 2:21:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/20/2013 5:39:17 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/20/2013 2:35:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
apos"ta"sy noun \ə-G2;p"s-tə-sē\
plural apos"ta"sies

Definition of APOSTASY

1 : renunciation of a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection

So, there are two ways you can be Apostate.

The first is simply to turn your back on you original faith.

The other is to deny that faith or to teach something other than what that faith should teach.

For instance. Someone who professes to believe that the trinity teaching is true and yet believes that Christ and God are not equal and one is in subjection to the other is an Apostate against any faith which teaches the trinity.

In scriptural terms an Apostate is one who turns against or denies the truth as taught by God, and later echoed by his son.

Therefore, since at no pint did Christ every teach that he was equal to his father anyone who professes that trinity as a teaching is an Apostate against the teachings of Jesus, and is therefore an Apostate Christian.

Jesus taught:

That he was sent by his father, who had the authority over him to do so. (John 17:3)

That he could do nothing of his own initiative. John 5:19

That only his Father could rightly be called good, not him. Luke 18:19

That he had a God, his Father, the same God his disciples worshipped. John 20:17

That he was God's son, not God himself. John 10:36

There are many other instances of Jesus denying being God, but claiming to be his son, which means that any who profess the trinity are Apostates against Christianity.

Scripture is very clear about what the end of all Apostates against Christ's teachings will be.

What does John 10:30 say?

John 10:30 I and the Father are one."

and the footnote says:

Or, "at unity." Lit., "one (thing)." Gr., hen, neuter, to show oneness in cooperation. See 17:21 and 1Co 3:8 ftns.

John 10:38 does not explain the for of the being one, but John 17:21 does:

John 17:21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth.

This shows that God and Christ being one is not in a literal sense but in the sense of unity of purpose since Christ is asking his Father to make his followers one with them also, thus John 10:38 does not, in fact, support the trinity, though it does give those who wish to follow that false teaching the chance to hoodwink others in to doing so if they are not honest enough to seek the real meaning.

1 Corinthians 11:3 proves that because it shows the submissive nature of Christ's relationship with his father.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/21/2013 2:28:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/20/2013 5:42:03 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 9/20/2013 5:39:17 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/20/2013 2:35:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
apos"ta"sy noun \ə-G2;p"s-tə-sē\
plural apos"ta"sies

Definition of APOSTASY

1 : renunciation of a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection

So, there are two ways you can be Apostate.

The first is simply to turn your back on you original faith.

The other is to deny that faith or to teach something other than what that faith should teach.

For instance. Someone who professes to believe that the trinity teaching is true and yet believes that Christ and God are not equal and one is in subjection to the other is an Apostate against any faith which teaches the trinity.

In scriptural terms an Apostate is one who turns against or denies the truth as taught by God, and later echoed by his son.

Therefore, since at no pint did Christ every teach that he was equal to his father anyone who professes that trinity as a teaching is an Apostate against the teachings of Jesus, and is therefore an Apostate Christian.

Jesus taught:

That he was sent by his father, who had the authority over him to do so. (John 17:3)

That he could do nothing of his own initiative. John 5:19

That only his Father could rightly be called good, not him. Luke 18:19

That he had a God, his Father, the same God his disciples worshipped. John 20:17

That he was God's son, not God himself. John 10:36

There are many other instances of Jesus denying being God, but claiming to be his son, which means that any who profess the trinity are Apostates against Christianity.

Scripture is very clear about what the end of all Apostates against Christ's teachings will be.

What does John 10:30 say?

Read my testimony above about the apostasy that started with Christianity and won't end until Christianity and all religions of this world are destroyed by our Creator.

Wow, for once you are almost right.

Christendom, like Judaism has reached the end of it's life since it has proven stubbornly Apostate over the last 1800 years or so. Unlike Judaism it is only being given the one chance to get its house in order and join in with the true followers of Christ, of whom there are now about 8,000,000 remaining on this earth, and still growing.

Thus God will soon, as you say, wipe all false Christianity, and in fact all false religion from the face of the earth.

Wow, I can't get over it, you actually made sense for once.
bulproof
Posts: 25,274
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9/21/2013 7:08:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 2:21:35 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/20/2013 5:39:17 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/20/2013 2:35:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
apos"ta"sy noun \ə-G2;p"s-tə-sē\
plural apos"ta"sies

Definition of APOSTASY

1 : renunciation of a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection

So, there are two ways you can be Apostate.

The first is simply to turn your back on you original faith.

The other is to deny that faith or to teach something other than what that faith should teach.

For instance. Someone who professes to believe that the trinity teaching is true and yet believes that Christ and God are not equal and one is in subjection to the other is an Apostate against any faith which teaches the trinity.

In scriptural terms an Apostate is one who turns against or denies the truth as taught by God, and later echoed by his son.

Therefore, since at no pint did Christ every teach that he was equal to his father anyone who professes that trinity as a teaching is an Apostate against the teachings of Jesus, and is therefore an Apostate Christian.

Jesus taught:

That he was sent by his father, who had the authority over him to do so. (John 17:3)

That he could do nothing of his own initiative. John 5:19

That only his Father could rightly be called good, not him. Luke 18:19

That he had a God, his Father, the same God his disciples worshipped. John 20:17

That he was God's son, not God himself. John 10:36

There are many other instances of Jesus denying being God, but claiming to be his son, which means that any who profess the trinity are Apostates against Christianity.

Scripture is very clear about what the end of all Apostates against Christ's teachings will be.

What does John 10:30 say?

John 10:30 I and the Father are one."

and the footnote says:

Or, "at unity." Lit., "one (thing)." Gr., hen, neuter, to show oneness in cooperation. See 17:21 and 1Co 3:8 ftns.

John 10:38 does not explain the for of the being one, but John 17:21 does:

John 17:21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth.

This shows that God and Christ being one is not in a literal sense but in the sense of unity of purpose since Christ is asking his Father to make his followers one with them also, thus John 10:38 does not, in fact, support the trinity, though it does give those who wish to follow that false teaching the chance to hoodwink others in to doing so if they are not honest enough to seek the real meaning.

1 Corinthians 11:3 proves that because it shows the submissive nature of Christ's relationship with his father.

No it doesn't that shows that the jehovians want desperately to make that passage mean what they have already decided that it should mean.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/21/2013 8:11:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 7:08:23 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/21/2013 2:21:35 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/20/2013 5:39:17 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/20/2013 2:35:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
apos"ta"sy noun \ə-G2;p"s-tə-sē\
plural apos"ta"sies

Definition of APOSTASY

1 : renunciation of a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection

So, there are two ways you can be Apostate.

The first is simply to turn your back on you original faith.

The other is to deny that faith or to teach something other than what that faith should teach.

For instance. Someone who professes to believe that the trinity teaching is true and yet believes that Christ and God are not equal and one is in subjection to the other is an Apostate against any faith which teaches the trinity.

In scriptural terms an Apostate is one who turns against or denies the truth as taught by God, and later echoed by his son.

Therefore, since at no pint did Christ every teach that he was equal to his father anyone who professes that trinity as a teaching is an Apostate against the teachings of Jesus, and is therefore an Apostate Christian.

Jesus taught:

That he was sent by his father, who had the authority over him to do so. (John 17:3)

That he could do nothing of his own initiative. John 5:19

That only his Father could rightly be called good, not him. Luke 18:19

That he had a God, his Father, the same God his disciples worshipped. John 20:17

That he was God's son, not God himself. John 10:36

There are many other instances of Jesus denying being God, but claiming to be his son, which means that any who profess the trinity are Apostates against Christianity.

Scripture is very clear about what the end of all Apostates against Christ's teachings will be.

What does John 10:30 say?

John 10:30 I and the Father are one."

and the footnote says:

Or, "at unity." Lit., "one (thing)." Gr., hen, neuter, to show oneness in cooperation. See 17:21 and 1Co 3:8 ftns.

John 10:38 does not explain the for of the being one, but John 17:21 does:

John 17:21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth.

This shows that God and Christ being one is not in a literal sense but in the sense of unity of purpose since Christ is asking his Father to make his followers one with them also, thus John 10:38 does not, in fact, support the trinity, though it does give those who wish to follow that false teaching the chance to hoodwink others in to doing so if they are not honest enough to seek the real meaning.

1 Corinthians 11:3 proves that because it shows the submissive nature of Christ's relationship with his father.

No it doesn't that shows that the jehovians want desperately to make that passage mean what they have already decided that it should mean.

It means what it means and the Jehovah s Witnesses have no desire to change it, we leave that to other churches.

The true meaning is the one that the Jehovah's Witnesses have adopted. As history shows they have always changed their beliefs to fit scripture, never the other way round.
bulproof
Posts: 25,274
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9/21/2013 8:17:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 8:11:33 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/21/2013 7:08:23 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/21/2013 2:21:35 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/20/2013 5:39:17 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/20/2013 2:35:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
apos"ta"sy noun \ə-G2;p"s-tə-sē\
plural apos"ta"sies

Definition of APOSTASY

1 : renunciation of a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection

So, there are two ways you can be Apostate.

The first is simply to turn your back on you original faith.

The other is to deny that faith or to teach something other than what that faith should teach.

For instance. Someone who professes to believe that the trinity teaching is true and yet believes that Christ and God are not equal and one is in subjection to the other is an Apostate against any faith which teaches the trinity.

In scriptural terms an Apostate is one who turns against or denies the truth as taught by God, and later echoed by his son.

Therefore, since at no pint did Christ every teach that he was equal to his father anyone who professes that trinity as a teaching is an Apostate against the teachings of Jesus, and is therefore an Apostate Christian.

Jesus taught:

That he was sent by his father, who had the authority over him to do so. (John 17:3)

That he could do nothing of his own initiative. John 5:19

That only his Father could rightly be called good, not him. Luke 18:19

That he had a God, his Father, the same God his disciples worshipped. John 20:17

That he was God's son, not God himself. John 10:36

There are many other instances of Jesus denying being God, but claiming to be his son, which means that any who profess the trinity are Apostates against Christianity.

Scripture is very clear about what the end of all Apostates against Christ's teachings will be.

What does John 10:30 say?

John 10:30 I and the Father are one."

and the footnote says:

Or, "at unity." Lit., "one (thing)." Gr., hen, neuter, to show oneness in cooperation. See 17:21 and 1Co 3:8 ftns.

John 10:38 does not explain the for of the being one, but John 17:21 does:

John 17:21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth.

This shows that God and Christ being one is not in a literal sense but in the sense of unity of purpose since Christ is asking his Father to make his followers one with them also, thus John 10:38 does not, in fact, support the trinity, though it does give those who wish to follow that false teaching the chance to hoodwink others in to doing so if they are not honest enough to seek the real meaning.

1 Corinthians 11:3 proves that because it shows the submissive nature of Christ's relationship with his father.

No it doesn't that shows that the jehovians want desperately to make that passage mean what they have already decided that it should mean.

It means what it means and the Jehovah s Witnesses have no desire to change it, we leave that to other churches.

The true meaning is the one that the Jehovah's Witnesses have adopted. As history shows they have always changed their beliefs to fit scripture, never the other way round.
hahahahahahahaha where does the tetragammaton show up in the NT? jehovian?:
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/21/2013 9:11:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 8:17:15 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/21/2013 8:11:33 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/21/2013 7:08:23 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/21/2013 2:21:35 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/20/2013 5:39:17 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/20/2013 2:35:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
apos"ta"sy noun \ə-G2;p"s-tə-sē\
plural apos"ta"sies

Definition of APOSTASY

1 : renunciation of a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection

So, there are two ways you can be Apostate.

The first is simply to turn your back on you original faith.

The other is to deny that faith or to teach something other than what that faith should teach.

For instance. Someone who professes to believe that the trinity teaching is true and yet believes that Christ and God are not equal and one is in subjection to the other is an Apostate against any faith which teaches the trinity.

In scriptural terms an Apostate is one who turns against or denies the truth as taught by God, and later echoed by his son.

Therefore, since at no pint did Christ every teach that he was equal to his father anyone who professes that trinity as a teaching is an Apostate against the teachings of Jesus, and is therefore an Apostate Christian.

Jesus taught:

That he was sent by his father, who had the authority over him to do so. (John 17:3)

That he could do nothing of his own initiative. John 5:19

That only his Father could rightly be called good, not him. Luke 18:19

That he had a God, his Father, the same God his disciples worshipped. John 20:17

That he was God's son, not God himself. John 10:36

There are many other instances of Jesus denying being God, but claiming to be his son, which means that any who profess the trinity are Apostates against Christianity.

Scripture is very clear about what the end of all Apostates against Christ's teachings will be.

What does John 10:30 say?

John 10:30 I and the Father are one."

and the footnote says:

Or, "at unity." Lit., "one (thing)." Gr., hen, neuter, to show oneness in cooperation. See 17:21 and 1Co 3:8 ftns.

John 10:38 does not explain the for of the being one, but John 17:21 does:

John 17:21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth.

This shows that God and Christ being one is not in a literal sense but in the sense of unity of purpose since Christ is asking his Father to make his followers one with them also, thus John 10:38 does not, in fact, support the trinity, though it does give those who wish to follow that false teaching the chance to hoodwink others in to doing so if they are not honest enough to seek the real meaning.

1 Corinthians 11:3 proves that because it shows the submissive nature of Christ's relationship with his father.

No it doesn't that shows that the jehovians want desperately to make that passage mean what they have already decided that it should mean.

It means what it means and the Jehovah s Witnesses have no desire to change it, we leave that to other churches.

The true meaning is the one that the Jehovah's Witnesses have adopted. As history shows they have always changed their beliefs to fit scripture, never the other way round.
hahahahahahahaha where does the tetragammaton show up in the NT? jehovian?:

Everywhere that eh accepted English translation of it, Jehovah, appears.

Some do prefer Yahweh, which is arguably a more accurate transliteration of it, but due to changes in language etc. there is still a little confusion there, however Jehovah is the widest accepted and best known version.

You come across problems like, for instance, the fact that for centuries in English Y, J and I were interchangeable, as were W and V, that is largely because English is based on so many foreign languages notably Lain, German (or Germanic languages anyway), French and Spanish.
bulproof
Posts: 25,274
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9/21/2013 12:15:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 9:11:25 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/21/2013 8:17:15 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/21/2013 8:11:33 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/21/2013 7:08:23 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/21/2013 2:21:35 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/20/2013 5:39:17 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/20/2013 2:35:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
apos"ta"sy noun \ə-G2;p"s-tə-sē\
plural apos"ta"sies

Definition of APOSTASY

1 : renunciation of a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection

So, there are two ways you can be Apostate.

The first is simply to turn your back on you original faith.

The other is to deny that faith or to teach something other than what that faith should teach.

For instance. Someone who professes to believe that the trinity teaching is true and yet believes that Christ and God are not equal and one is in subjection to the other is an Apostate against any faith which teaches the trinity.

In scriptural terms an Apostate is one who turns against or denies the truth as taught by God, and later echoed by his son.

Therefore, since at no pint did Christ every teach that he was equal to his father anyone who professes that trinity as a teaching is an Apostate against the teachings of Jesus, and is therefore an Apostate Christian.

Jesus taught:

That he was sent by his father, who had the authority over him to do so. (John 17:3)

That he could do nothing of his own initiative. John 5:19

That only his Father could rightly be called good, not him. Luke 18:19

That he had a God, his Father, the same God his disciples worshipped. John 20:17

That he was God's son, not God himself. John 10:36

There are many other instances of Jesus denying being God, but claiming to be his son, which means that any who profess the trinity are Apostates against Christianity.

Scripture is very clear about what the end of all Apostates against Christ's teachings will be.

What does John 10:30 say?

John 10:30 I and the Father are one."

and the footnote says:

Or, "at unity." Lit., "one (thing)." Gr., hen, neuter, to show oneness in cooperation. See 17:21 and 1Co 3:8 ftns.

John 10:38 does not explain the for of the being one, but John 17:21 does:

John 17:21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth.

This shows that God and Christ being one is not in a literal sense but in the sense of unity of purpose since Christ is asking his Father to make his followers one with them also, thus John 10:38 does not, in fact, support the trinity, though it does give those who wish to follow that false teaching the chance to hoodwink others in to doing so if they are not honest enough to seek the real meaning.

1 Corinthians 11:3 proves that because it shows the submissive nature of Christ's relationship with his father.

No it doesn't that shows that the jehovians want desperately to make that passage mean what they have already decided that it should mean.

It means what it means and the Jehovah s Witnesses have no desire to change it, we leave that to other churches.

The true meaning is the one that the Jehovah's Witnesses have adopted. As history shows they have always changed their beliefs to fit scripture, never the other way round.
hahahahahahahaha where does the tetragammaton show up in the NT? jehovian?:

Everywhere that eh accepted English translation of it, Jehovah, appears.

Some do prefer Yahweh, which is arguably a more accurate transliteration of it, but due to changes in language etc. there is still a little confusion there, however Jehovah is the widest accepted and best known version.

You come across problems like, for instance, the fact that for centuries in English Y, J and I were interchangeable, as were W and V, that is largely because English is based on so many foreign languages notably Lain, German (or Germanic languages anyway), French and Spanish.
Kyrios is not the tetragammaton. Please stop lying. The tetragammaton is what everybody translates as either Yahweh or God and even the jehovians have admitted that they only use jehovah for convenience not as a literal translation and everybody knows that Kyrios is not the tetragammaton. But of course the jehovian bible is not a translation it is the KJV with the words changed to absolutely reflect the profit Tazer or maybe the Judge.
Show where anybody has conflated Kyrios with the tetragammaton, especially when the jehovians accept that the name is not jehovah.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
annanicole
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9/21/2013 2:22:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
MCB: "As history shows they have always changed their beliefs to fit scripture, never the other way round."

Anna: I think that history will show that their many speculations, musings, pontifications, and "proofs positive" as they used to say fit broadly into two categories:

1. The visible and tangible
2. The invisible and intangible

Often the two were combined - more often than not. "This will happen in heaven, and this will happen on earth," or "Jesus will be doing this, and humans will be doing that."

As history shows, when their musings and speculations proved to be nonsense (which they always have), they do this:

1. Admit to the obvious: Armageddon did not start in 1914 or any other time, millions now living have continued to die, human governments have not ended. We all see that - and they are a laughing stock, but, yeah, they admit to those particular errors.

2. Cling tenaciously to the invisible. Nobody can "prove" that Jesus didn't "turn His attention to earth" in 1914. Nobody can prove or disprove what does or did go on in heaven - so they aren't forced to admit any errors in that regard, and they don't.

Now, anybody ought to be able to see that. They take OT prophesies that found their fulfillments in Christ and the church - and get their calculators out! How and why people continue to fall for their musings is beyond me. ALL Old Testament prophesy is fulfilled. Every bit of it. It all either pointed to events surrounding Israel's sundry ramblings and captivities, or it pointed to Christ and the church.

The "Law" and the "Prophets" were .... until John. Not just the Law. And "until John" means John's regime - John's baptism - John's teachings - and "until John" means "until the cross". Watchtowerites take old prophesies that have long since been fulfilled, try to literalize metaphorical and poetic language, and say, "It ain't happened." That's their biggest error.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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9/21/2013 2:34:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 2:28:54 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/20/2013 5:42:03 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 9/20/2013 5:39:17 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/20/2013 2:35:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
apos"ta"sy noun \ə-G2;p"s-tə-sē\
plural apos"ta"sies

Definition of APOSTASY

1 : renunciation of a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection

So, there are two ways you can be Apostate.

The first is simply to turn your back on you original faith.

The other is to deny that faith or to teach something other than what that faith should teach.

For instance. Someone who professes to believe that the trinity teaching is true and yet believes that Christ and God are not equal and one is in subjection to the other is an Apostate against any faith which teaches the trinity.

In scriptural terms an Apostate is one who turns against or denies the truth as taught by God, and later echoed by his son.

Therefore, since at no pint did Christ every teach that he was equal to his father anyone who professes that trinity as a teaching is an Apostate against the teachings of Jesus, and is therefore an Apostate Christian.

Jesus taught:

That he was sent by his father, who had the authority over him to do so. (John 17:3)

That he could do nothing of his own initiative. John 5:19

That only his Father could rightly be called good, not him. Luke 18:19

That he had a God, his Father, the same God his disciples worshipped. John 20:17

That he was God's son, not God himself. John 10:36

There are many other instances of Jesus denying being God, but claiming to be his son, which means that any who profess the trinity are Apostates against Christianity.

Scripture is very clear about what the end of all Apostates against Christ's teachings will be.

What does John 10:30 say?

Read my testimony above about the apostasy that started with Christianity and won't end until Christianity and all religions of this world are destroyed by our Creator.

Wow, for once you are almost right.

Christendom, like Judaism has reached the end of it's life since it has proven stubbornly Apostate over the last 1800 years or so. Unlike Judaism it is only being given the one chance to get its house in order and join in with the true followers of Christ, of whom there are now about 8,000,000 remaining on this earth, and still growing.

Thus God will soon, as you say, wipe all false Christianity, and in fact all false religion from the face of the earth.

Wow, I can't get over it, you actually made sense for once.

You still don't understand how God has planned to end this age but since you were made to be an unbeliever during this age, you won't listen to our Creator's voice. You're only interested in your own false interpretations and then argue with everyone who doesn't agree with your lies.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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9/21/2013 2:42:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 2:22:01 PM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "As history shows they have always changed their beliefs to fit scripture, never the other way round."

Anna: I think that history will show that their many speculations, musings, pontifications, and "proofs positive" as they used to say fit broadly into two categories:

1. The visible and tangible
2. The invisible and intangible

Often the two were combined - more often than not. "This will happen in heaven, and this will happen on earth," or "Jesus will be doing this, and humans will be doing that."

As history shows, when their musings and speculations proved to be nonsense (which they always have), they do this:

1. Admit to the obvious: Armageddon did not start in 1914 or any other time, millions now living have continued to die, human governments have not ended. We all see that - and they are a laughing stock, but, yeah, they admit to those particular errors.

2. Cling tenaciously to the invisible. Nobody can "prove" that Jesus didn't "turn His attention to earth" in 1914. Nobody can prove or disprove what does or did go on in heaven - so they aren't forced to admit any errors in that regard, and they don't.

Now, anybody ought to be able to see that. They take OT prophesies that found their fulfillments in Christ and the church - and get their calculators out! How and why people continue to fall for their musings is beyond me. ALL Old Testament prophesy is fulfilled. Every bit of it. It all either pointed to events surrounding Israel's sundry ramblings and captivities, or it pointed to Christ and the church.

The "Law" and the "Prophets" were .... until John. Not just the Law. And "until John" means John's regime - John's baptism - John's teachings - and "until John" means "until the cross". Watchtowerites take old prophesies that have long since been fulfilled, try to literalize metaphorical and poetic language, and say, "It ain't happened." That's their biggest error.

Most of the Old Testament prophecies haven't been fulfilled yet. For one thing, there has to be an end to this first age, which hasn't happened yet. The flesh of all God's creatures including humans have to be destroyed before our spirit gets new bodies to live in Paradise.

In fact, the earth will be level in the next age without any oceans or mountains. Then we will get new flesh to experience the New Heaven and Earth.

Isaiah 40
1: Comfort, comfort my people, says your God.
2: Speak tenderly to Jerusalem, and cry to her that her warfare is ended, that her iniquity is pardoned, that she has received from the LORD's hand double for all her sins.
3: A voice cries: "In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
4: Every valley shall be lifted up, and every mountain and hill be made low; the uneven ground shall become level, and the rough places a plain.
5: And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together, for the mouth of the LORD has spoken."
6: A voice says, "Cry!" And I said, "What shall I cry?" All flesh is grass, and all its beauty is like the flower of the field.
7: The grass withers, the flower fades, when the breath of the LORD blows upon it; surely the people is grass.
8: The grass withers, the flower fades; but the word of our God will stand for ever.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/21/2013 3:20:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 2:22:01 PM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "As history shows they have always changed their beliefs to fit scripture, never the other way round."

Anna: I think that history will show that their many speculations, musings, pontifications, and "proofs positive" as they used to say fit broadly into two categories:

1. The visible and tangible
2. The invisible and intangible

Often the two were combined - more often than not. "This will happen in heaven, and this will happen on earth," or "Jesus will be doing this, and humans will be doing that."

As history shows, when their musings and speculations proved to be nonsense (which they always have), they do this:

1. Admit to the obvious: Armageddon did not start in 1914 or any other time, millions now living have continued to die, human governments have not ended. We all see that - and they are a laughing stock, but, yeah, they admit to those particular errors.

2. Cling tenaciously to the invisible. Nobody can "prove" that Jesus didn't "turn His attention to earth" in 1914. Nobody can prove or disprove what does or did go on in heaven - so they aren't forced to admit any errors in that regard, and they don't.

Now, anybody ought to be able to see that. They take OT prophesies that found their fulfillments in Christ and the church - and get their calculators out! How and why people continue to fall for their musings is beyond me. ALL Old Testament prophesy is fulfilled. Every bit of it. It all either pointed to events surrounding Israel's sundry ramblings and captivities, or it pointed to Christ and the church.

The "Law" and the "Prophets" were .... until John. Not just the Law. And "until John" means John's regime - John's baptism - John's teachings - and "until John" means "until the cross". Watchtowerites take old prophesies that have long since been fulfilled, try to literalize metaphorical and poetic language, and say, "It ain't happened." That's their biggest error.

1: Armageddon was never thought to be happening in 1914, that was when Jesus took up his throne, which did happen.

At first it was thought that Armageddon would follow straight on from that. Especially when WWI started, that was so horrendous many thought, understandably, that it was the start of Armageddon.

Yes there were a few other speculations, but they learned form their mistakes. The meaning of 1914 has never changed, because the scripture has never changed.

So what if they made mistakes, we have already proven how easy it is for spirit anointed ones to make mistakes because scripture tells us of the horrendous mistake Peter made which led to him being public taken to task by Paul.

The mistakes the Bible Students made were nothing compared to that one, but God forgave Peter, and he has forgiven his servants the Jehovah's Witnesses. Their errors were errors of understanding partly due to impatience, and a desire to see Satan's world finally destroyed.

No Armageddon hasn't happened yet, but it will we just have to learn to wait God's time not worry too much about when we want it to happen, and accept that God knows exactly when is the right point in his plan to bring it in. In many ways we are better off not knowing.

None of teh porphecies that were foretold for this time have been fulfilled yet.

We are still waiting for the "Great tribulation such as has ever been, nor will be again". No-one can realistically claim that has happened yet, so many tribulations far worse than any seen in the 1st century have happened since, even just in the local area. Look at the suffering and tribulation in the Sudan for one, That has been far worse than anything that happened in the first century.

Satan comes up with tribulation after tribulation to try and fool us into thinking this is "the big one", but believe me, when it dies strike you will be in no doubt that "this is it".

Satan loves ones such as you who think they are too clever to be fooled. There are none who are in fact easier because they aren't wary enough, they are too complacent and self confident. That is why eh ash you well and truly hooked at present. You are too busy thinking that you are leaning on your own understanding when really you are being prompted by Satan without you even noticing.

This is what happens from ones who isolate themselves, just like a lion preys on the ones on the fringes of the herd, or the singletons, so does Satan. 1 Peter 5:8 Keep YOUR senses, be watchful. YOUR adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour [someone].

When one is as determined to go it alone one is easy pray for such a powerful spirit being, if if you don't believe he exists or that he can influence you, all the better.

I don't care what you think, I now from experience that we need the help and protection Christ provides through the power of his Father's holy spirit, it is the only thing stronger than Satan's spirit.

Without it we are no match for Satan.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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9/21/2013 3:27:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 3:20:23 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/21/2013 2:22:01 PM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "As history shows they have always changed their beliefs to fit scripture, never the other way round."

Anna: I think that history will show that their many speculations, musings, pontifications, and "proofs positive" as they used to say fit broadly into two categories:

1. The visible and tangible
2. The invisible and intangible

Often the two were combined - more often than not. "This will happen in heaven, and this will happen on earth," or "Jesus will be doing this, and humans will be doing that."

As history shows, when their musings and speculations proved to be nonsense (which they always have), they do this:

1. Admit to the obvious: Armageddon did not start in 1914 or any other time, millions now living have continued to die, human governments have not ended. We all see that - and they are a laughing stock, but, yeah, they admit to those particular errors.

2. Cling tenaciously to the invisible. Nobody can "prove" that Jesus didn't "turn His attention to earth" in 1914. Nobody can prove or disprove what does or did go on in heaven - so they aren't forced to admit any errors in that regard, and they don't.

Now, anybody ought to be able to see that. They take OT prophesies that found their fulfillments in Christ and the church - and get their calculators out! How and why people continue to fall for their musings is beyond me. ALL Old Testament prophesy is fulfilled. Every bit of it. It all either pointed to events surrounding Israel's sundry ramblings and captivities, or it pointed to Christ and the church.

The "Law" and the "Prophets" were .... until John. Not just the Law. And "until John" means John's regime - John's baptism - John's teachings - and "until John" means "until the cross". Watchtowerites take old prophesies that have long since been fulfilled, try to literalize metaphorical and poetic language, and say, "It ain't happened." That's their biggest error.

1: Armageddon was never thought to be happening in 1914, that was when Jesus took up his throne, which did happen.

At first it was thought that Armageddon would follow straight on from that. Especially when WWI started, that was so horrendous many thought, understandably, that it was the start of Armageddon.

Yes there were a few other speculations, but they learned form their mistakes. The meaning of 1914 has never changed, because the scripture has never changed.

So what if they made mistakes, we have already proven how easy it is for spirit anointed ones to make mistakes because scripture tells us of the horrendous mistake Peter made which led to him being public taken to task by Paul.

The mistakes the Bible Students made were nothing compared to that one, but God forgave Peter, and he has forgiven his servants the Jehovah's Witnesses. Their errors were errors of understanding partly due to impatience, and a desire to see Satan's world finally destroyed.

No Armageddon hasn't happened yet, but it will we just have to learn to wait God's time not worry too much about when we want it to happen, and accept that God knows exactly when is the right point in his plan to bring it in. In many ways we are better off not knowing.

None of teh porphecies that were foretold for this time have been fulfilled yet.

We are still waiting for the "Great tribulation such as has ever been, nor will be again". No-one can realistically claim that has happened yet, so many tribulations far worse than any seen in the 1st century have happened since, even just in the local area. Look at the suffering and tribulation in the Sudan for one, That has been far worse than anything that happened in the first century.

Satan comes up with tribulation after tribulation to try and fool us into thinking this is "the big one", but believe me, when it dies strike you will be in no doubt that "this is it".

Satan loves ones such as you who think they are too clever to be fooled. There are none who are in fact easier because they aren't wary enough, they are too complacent and self confident. That is why eh ash you well and truly hooked at present. You are too busy thinking that you are leaning on your own understanding when really you are being prompted by Satan without you even noticing.

This is what happens from ones who isolate themselves, just like a lion preys on the ones on the fringes of the herd, or the singletons, so does Satan. 1 Peter 5:8 Keep YOUR senses, be watchful. YOUR adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour [someone].

When one is as determined to go it alone one is easy pray for such a powerful spirit being, if if you don't believe he exists or that he can influence you, all the better.

I don't care what you think, I now from experience that we need the help and protection Christ provides through the power of his Father's holy spirit, it is the only thing stronger than Satan's spirit.

Without it we are no match for Satan.

Satan is only a delusion that isn't real. Just like the "boogie man" in the woods isn't real. God created this energy that vibrates in disharmony to keep His formed people ( Israel ) from knowing who they are in Christ ( Jacob ).

God plans on destroying this energy called Satan with His energy called Fire on the Last Day of this first age. Never again will God's creation be deceived by Him.
MadCornishBiker
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9/21/2013 5:45:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 4:51:12 PM, Sitara wrote:
Is heresy synonymous with apostasy?

I would say yes to that. I have no idea what the difference is.
Sitara
Posts: 745
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9/21/2013 8:03:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 5:45:39 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/21/2013 4:51:12 PM, Sitara wrote:
Is heresy synonymous with apostasy?

I would say yes to that. I have no idea what the difference is.

Okay thanks. I was just wondering.
MadCornishBiker
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9/22/2013 5:57:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 8:03:50 PM, Sitara wrote:
At 9/21/2013 5:45:39 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/21/2013 4:51:12 PM, Sitara wrote:
Is heresy synonymous with apostasy?

I would say yes to that. I have no idea what the difference is.

Okay thanks. I was just wondering.

No worries, wondering is a good thing, asking is even better. "The only stupid question is the one that isn't asked" a bit of an exaggeration but the principle of that old saying is still sound.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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9/22/2013 12:05:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
MCB: "So what if they made mistakes, we have already proven how easy it is for spirit anointed ones to make mistakes because scripture tells us of the horrendous mistake Peter made which led to him being public taken to task by Paul.

The mistakes the Bible Students made were nothing compared to that one, but God forgave Peter, and he has forgiven his servants the Jehovah's Witnesses. Their errors were errors of understanding partly due to impatience, and a desire to see Satan's world finally destroyed."

Anna: Yeah, you've proven so dramatically that Peter taught error: the only problem was that he taught error only by his prejudicial example and his "people-pleasing" character flaw. I asked you for ONE error that Peter ever publicly SPOKE, and you came up dry. Never named a one! And you won't either, because Peter was inspired.

In fact, there is NO example of a Spirit-baptized person either writing or speaking error. Not a one. If you think there is, find it.

WatchTowerites like C. T. Russell died unforgiven for their errors. Isn't that something? The founder of the sect went to "torments" that he didn't even believe in - and is lost. Why? He ignored God's Law of Pardon - the Law of Christ. Why? He fouled up the design and purpose of baptism. CERTAINLY those "Bible students" who repented of their sins and were baptized unto the remission of their past sins were forgiven. Nobody ever disputed that.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
cybertron1998
Posts: 5,818
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9/22/2013 12:08:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/22/2013 12:05:34 PM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "So what if they made mistakes, we have already proven how easy it is for spirit anointed ones to make mistakes because scripture tells us of the horrendous mistake Peter made which led to him being public taken to task by Paul.

The mistakes the Bible Students made were nothing compared to that one, but God forgave Peter, and he has forgiven his servants the Jehovah's Witnesses. Their errors were errors of understanding partly due to impatience, and a desire to see Satan's world finally destroyed."

Anna: Yeah, you've proven so dramatically that Peter taught error: the only problem was that he taught error only by his prejudicial example and his "people-pleasing" character flaw. I asked you for ONE error that Peter ever publicly SPOKE, and you came up dry. Never named a one! And you won't either, because Peter was inspired.

In fact, there is NO example of a Spirit-baptized person either writing or speaking error. Not a one. If you think there is, find it.

WatchTowerites like C. T. Russell died unforgiven for their errors. Isn't that something? The founder of the sect went to "torments" that he didn't even believe in - and is lost. Why? He ignored God's Law of Pardon - the Law of Christ. Why? He fouled up the design and purpose of baptism. CERTAINLY those "Bible students" who repented of their sins and were baptized unto the remission of their past sins were forgiven. Nobody ever disputed that.

i'd like to point out that in most books like the bible, whether or not they are a holy text, like to show the glory of the "protagonist" and condemn the "antagonist," so of course they won't show them making an error
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
MadCornishBiker
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9/22/2013 1:08:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/22/2013 12:05:34 PM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "So what if they made mistakes, we have already proven how easy it is for spirit anointed ones to make mistakes because scripture tells us of the horrendous mistake Peter made which led to him being public taken to task by Paul.

The mistakes the Bible Students made were nothing compared to that one, but God forgave Peter, and he has forgiven his servants the Jehovah's Witnesses. Their errors were errors of understanding partly due to impatience, and a desire to see Satan's world finally destroyed."

Anna: Yeah, you've proven so dramatically that Peter taught error: the only problem was that he taught error only by his prejudicial example and his "people-pleasing" character flaw. I asked you for ONE error that Peter ever publicly SPOKE, and you came up dry. Never named a one! And you won't either, because Peter was inspired.

In fact, there is NO example of a Spirit-baptized person either writing or speaking error. Not a one. If you think there is, find it.

WatchTowerites like C. T. Russell died unforgiven for their errors. Isn't that something? The founder of the sect went to "torments" that he didn't even believe in - and is lost. Why? He ignored God's Law of Pardon - the Law of Christ. Why? He fouled up the design and purpose of baptism. CERTAINLY those "Bible students" who repented of their sins and were baptized unto the remission of their past sins were forgiven. Nobody ever disputed that.

What makes you think they died unforgiven? Are you their judge? Because by saying that you are taking that role on.Somehow I doubt it because God doesn't hold unintentional error against anyone. Just as well really or none of us would succeed.

I am still not convinced he did, but even so it matters not now.

If you keep to your level of error do you think you will be forgiven? When you are being given so many opportunities to learn? I doubt it, scripture certainly suggests not, and you are gravely in error about many things, baptism included.

You don't appear to have done so though, you keep harking back to their errors, or what you see as their errors in some cases.

Again you show your completely unChristian unwillingness to forgive, and not hold error in mind.
seeu46
Posts: 578
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9/22/2013 1:54:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 2:21:35 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/20/2013 5:39:17 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/20/2013 2:35:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
apos"ta"sy noun \ə-G2;p"s-tə-sē\
plural apos"ta"sies

Definition of APOSTASY

1 : renunciation of a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection

So, there are two ways you can be Apostate.

The first is simply to turn your back on you original faith.

The other is to deny that faith or to teach something other than what that faith should teach.

For instance. Someone who professes to believe that the trinity teaching is true and yet believes that Christ and God are not equal and one is in subjection to the other is an Apostate against any faith which teaches the trinity.

In scriptural terms an Apostate is one who turns against or denies the truth as taught by God, and later echoed by his son.

Therefore, since at no pint did Christ every teach that he was equal to his father anyone who professes that trinity as a teaching is an Apostate against the teachings of Jesus, and is therefore an Apostate Christian.

Jesus taught:

That he was sent by his father, who had the authority over him to do so. (John 17:3)

That he could do nothing of his own initiative. John 5:19

That only his Father could rightly be called good, not him. Luke 18:19

That he had a God, his Father, the same God his disciples worshipped. John 20:17

That he was God's son, not God himself. John 10:36

There are many other instances of Jesus denying being God, but claiming to be his son, which means that any who profess the trinity are Apostates against Christianity.

Scripture is very clear about what the end of all Apostates against Christ's teachings will be.

What does John 10:30 say?

John 10:30 I and the Father are one."

and the footnote says:

Or, "at unity." Lit., "one (thing)." Gr., hen, neuter, to show oneness in cooperation. See 17:21 and 1Co 3:8 ftns.

John 10:38 does not explain the for of the being one, but John 17:21 does:

John 17:21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth.

This shows that God and Christ being one is not in a literal sense but in the sense of unity of purpose since Christ is asking his Father to make his followers one with them also, thus John 10:38 does not, in fact, support the trinity, though it does give those who wish to follow that false teaching the chance to hoodwink others in to doing so if they are not honest enough to seek the real meaning.

1 Corinthians 11:3 proves that because it shows the submissive nature of Christ's relationship with his father.

Yes a "special" union that the Father and the Son share. That we "may" be in union with them. But you and I can't get that union by going straight to Father himself "without" the Son(that is why it's so important to have faith in Christ). The Father and the Son have this union because the Son does exactly what the Father does. We don't have this union on our "own" to get to the Father by our self, only the Son does, since he was made from that which sent him. Made from the true Spirit and made of Flesh also for our sake. But if we try to make our union without the Son and only go straight to the Father by our own.

For if you ignore the Son and just believe the Father. You are ignoring the Father to begin with.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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9/22/2013 2:02:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
MCB: "What makes you think they died unforgiven? Are you their judge? Because by saying that you are taking that role on.Somehow I doubt it because God doesn't hold unintentional error against anyone."

Anna: Because C. T. Russell made intentional error:

Acts 2: 38, "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

C. T. Russell, "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ because your sins were already forgiven, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Mark 16: 16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

C. T. Russell, "He that believeth and is NOT baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 22: 16, "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

C. T. Russell, "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away NOTHING, calling on the name of the Lord.

I Pet 3: 21, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

C. T. Russell, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also NOT now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Those are unintentional errors. He lived and died teaching that - leading people astray. Even by your own admission, he was a false teacher. Since baptism for the remission of sins is a part of God's law of pardon, and C. T. Russell deliberately taught otherwise, he is lost.

The truth was pointed out to Mr. Russell in the Russell-White Debate. Mr. White was right on the money as far as the purpose of baptism. Mr. Russell opposed the truth, embraced error - even when his errors and fallacies were correctly pointed out to him.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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9/22/2013 2:41:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/20/2013 2:35:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
apos"ta"sy noun \ə-G2;p"s-tə-sē\
plural apos"ta"sies

Definition of APOSTASY

1 : renunciation of a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection

So, there are two ways you can be Apostate.

The first is simply to turn your back on you original faith.

The other is to deny that faith or to teach something other than what that faith should teach.

For instance. Someone who professes to believe that the trinity teaching is true and yet believes that Christ and God are not equal and one is in subjection to the other is an Apostate against any faith which teaches the trinity.

In scriptural terms an Apostate is one who turns against or denies the truth as taught by God, and later echoed by his son.

Therefore, since at no pint did Christ every teach that he was equal to his father anyone who professes that trinity as a teaching is an Apostate against the teachings of Jesus, and is therefore an Apostate Christian.

Jesus taught:

That he was sent by his father, who had the authority over him to do so. (John 17:3)

That he could do nothing of his own initiative. John 5:19

That only his Father could rightly be called good, not him. Luke 18:19

That he had a God, his Father, the same God his disciples worshipped. John 20:17

That he was God's son, not God himself. John 10:36

There are many other instances of Jesus denying being God, but claiming to be his son, which means that any who profess the trinity are Apostates against Christianity.

Scripture is very clear about what the end of all Apostates against Christ's teachings will be.

Oh jeez...
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/22/2013 4:11:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/22/2013 2:02:30 PM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "What makes you think they died unforgiven? Are you their judge? Because by saying that you are taking that role on.Somehow I doubt it because God doesn't hold unintentional error against anyone."

Anna: Because C. T. Russell made intentional error:

Acts 2: 38, "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

C. T. Russell, "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ because your sins were already forgiven, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

As far as I am aware that is true.

The problem you have is that you think God is tied to words. It is the other way round, words are tied to God.

God knows if your desire for forgiveness is genuine and will therefore forgive you on that basis. That is why baptism can only be symbolic.

That is why Baptism is a symbol

Mark 16: 16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

C. T. Russell, "He that believeth and is NOT baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

True but notice that scripture does not say only he that believeth and is baptised. Your belief limits God, but only he can do that. He will forgive who and when he chooses to, or do you not believe he has the power to?


Acts 22: 16, "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

C. T. Russell, "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away NOTHING, calling on the name of the Lord.

So, what else could be washed away?


I Pet 3: 21, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

C. T. Russell, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also NOT now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Well of itself baptism cannot save us, it is only a part of the whole picture.


Those are unintentional errors. He lived and died teaching that - leading people astray. Even by your own admission, he was a false teacher. Since baptism for the remission of sins is a part of God's law of pardon, and C. T. Russell deliberately taught otherwise, he is lost.

Well considering moist of them aren't errors, except in our eyes.


The truth was pointed out to Mr. Russell in the Russell-White Debate. Mr. White was right on the money as far as the purpose of baptism. Mr. Russell opposed the truth, embraced error - even when his errors and fallacies were correctly pointed out to him.

Apparently Mr White was not "on the money", but then you are comparing his beliefs with yours, and yours are wrong so...................................

So, if anyone was wrong it was Mr White, but whether he was intentionally wrong or not you and I cannot judge, any more than you can judge that Russell was intentionally wrong in in errors he did make.

You really should stop putting yourself in the judgement seat of the Christ, you are asking for big trouble doing that sort of thing.

We can judge what people do and teach. We cannot judge them or their motivation.

Hence Jesus words at Matthew 7:1-5 really does apply to you when you get on your high horse like this.

Matthew 7:1-5
"Stop judging that YOU may not be judged; 2 for with what judgment YOU are judging, YOU will be judged; and with the measure that YOU are measuring out, they will measure out to YOU. 3 Why, then, do you look at the straw in your brother"s eye, but do not consider the rafter in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, "Allow me to extract the straw from your eye"; when, look! a rafter is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First extract the rafter from your own eye, and then you will see clearly how to extract the straw from your brother"s eye.

Your judgemental nature. like many of your teachings, can only stem from Satan's influence. No-one who truly follows Christ is that judgemental.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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9/22/2013 4:13:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 2:21:35 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/20/2013 5:39:17 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/20/2013 2:35:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
apos"ta"sy noun \ə-G2;p"s-tə-sē\
plural apos"ta"sies

Definition of APOSTASY

1 : renunciation of a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection

So, there are two ways you can be Apostate.

The first is simply to turn your back on you original faith.

The other is to deny that faith or to teach something other than what that faith should teach.

For instance. Someone who professes to believe that the trinity teaching is true and yet believes that Christ and God are not equal and one is in subjection to the other is an Apostate against any faith which teaches the trinity.

In scriptural terms an Apostate is one who turns against or denies the truth as taught by God, and later echoed by his son.

Therefore, since at no pint did Christ every teach that he was equal to his father anyone who professes that trinity as a teaching is an Apostate against the teachings of Jesus, and is therefore an Apostate Christian.

Jesus taught:

That he was sent by his father, who had the authority over him to do so. (John 17:3)

That he could do nothing of his own initiative. John 5:19

That only his Father could rightly be called good, not him. Luke 18:19

That he had a God, his Father, the same God his disciples worshipped. John 20:17

That he was God's son, not God himself. John 10:36

There are many other instances of Jesus denying being God, but claiming to be his son, which means that any who profess the trinity are Apostates against Christianity.

Scripture is very clear about what the end of all Apostates against Christ's teachings will be.

What does John 10:30 say?

John 10:30 I and the Father are one."

and the footnote says:

Or, "at unity." Lit., "one (thing)." Gr., hen, neuter, to show oneness in cooperation. See 17:21 and 1Co 3:8 ftns.

John 10:38 does not explain the for of the being one, but John 17:21 does:

John 17:21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth.

This shows that God and Christ being one is not in a literal sense but in the sense of unity of purpose since Christ is asking his Father to make his followers one with them also, thus John 10:38 does not, in fact, support the trinity, though it does give those who wish to follow that false teaching the chance to hoodwink others in to doing so if they are not honest enough to seek the real meaning.

1 Corinthians 11:3 proves that because it shows the submissive nature of Christ's relationship with his father.

You have no idea what Christ means and most likely you won't listen to me explain what Christ is.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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9/22/2013 4:19:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/22/2013 4:11:43 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/22/2013 2:02:30 PM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "What makes you think they died unforgiven? Are you their judge? Because by saying that you are taking that role on.Somehow I doubt it because God doesn't hold unintentional error against anyone."

Anna: Because C. T. Russell made intentional error:

Acts 2: 38, "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

C. T. Russell, "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ because your sins were already forgiven, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

As far as I am aware that is true.

The problem you have is that you think God is tied to words. It is the other way round, words are tied to God.

God knows if your desire for forgiveness is genuine and will therefore forgive you on that basis. That is why baptism can only be symbolic.

That is why Baptism is a symbol

Mark 16: 16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

C. T. Russell, "He that believeth and is NOT baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

True but notice that scripture does not say only he that believeth and is baptised. Your belief limits God, but only he can do that. He will forgive who and when he chooses to, or do you not believe he has the power to?


Acts 22: 16, "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

C. T. Russell, "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away NOTHING, calling on the name of the Lord.

So, what else could be washed away?


I Pet 3: 21, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

C. T. Russell, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also NOT now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Well of itself baptism cannot save us, it is only a part of the whole picture.


Those are unintentional errors. He lived and died teaching that - leading people astray. Even by your own admission, he was a false teacher. Since baptism for the remission of sins is a part of God's law of pardon, and C. T. Russell deliberately taught otherwise, he is lost.

Well considering moist of them aren't errors, except in our eyes.


The truth was pointed out to Mr. Russell in the Russell-White Debate. Mr. White was right on the money as far as the purpose of baptism. Mr. Russell opposed the truth, embraced error - even when his errors and fallacies were correctly pointed out to him.

Apparently Mr White was not "on the money", but then you are comparing his beliefs with yours, and yours are wrong so...................................

So, if anyone was wrong it was Mr White, but whether he was intentionally wrong or not you and I cannot judge, any more than you can judge that Russell was intentionally wrong in in errors he did make.

You really should stop putting yourself in the judgement seat of the Christ, you are asking for big trouble doing that sort of thing.

We can judge what people do and teach. We cannot judge them or their motivation.

Hence Jesus words at Matthew 7:1-5 really does apply to you when you get on your high horse like this.

Matthew 7:1-5
"Stop judging that YOU may not be judged; 2 for with what judgment YOU are judging, YOU will be judged; and with the measure that YOU are measuring out, they will measure out to YOU. 3 Why, then, do you look at the straw in your brother"s eye, but do not consider the rafter in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, "Allow me to extract the straw from your eye"; when, look! a rafter is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First extract the rafter from your own eye, and then you will see clearly how to extract the straw from your brother"s eye.

Your judgemental nature. like many of your teachings, can only stem from Satan's influence. No-one who truly follows Christ is that judgemental.

Baptism isn't symbolic of anything. It is a religious practice that was introduced by the Jews who were trying to wash away their sinfulness.

Our Creator created everything before any visible world existed, even the salvation of ALL His people after the illusion of their flesh dying in this age.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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9/22/2013 4:22:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/22/2013 5:57:26 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/21/2013 8:03:50 PM, Sitara wrote:
At 9/21/2013 5:45:39 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/21/2013 4:51:12 PM, Sitara wrote:
Is heresy synonymous with apostasy?

I would say yes to that. I have no idea what the difference is.

Okay thanks. I was just wondering.

No worries, wondering is a good thing, asking is even better. "The only stupid question is the one that isn't asked" a bit of an exaggeration but the principle of that old saying is still sound.

Only the stupid people ask stupid questions that can't be answered because stupid people won't listen to the answers anyway. I've been giving you and everyone in this forum the Truth in my testimonies and you're all too stupid to understand Him.