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A Quesiton for Atheists

Chuwilliams
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9/26/2013 3:12:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
According to your atheist ideology, what happens when you die? More specifically, are you conscious/aware of your consciousness? Are you in a "place" in the afterlife? This is a topic that has interested me for a while. So far, I haven't been able to find a straight forward answer. So, I'm asking atheists to give me their beliefs on this subject.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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9/26/2013 3:32:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/26/2013 3:12:53 PM, Chuwilliams wrote:
According to your atheist ideology, what happens when you die? More specifically, are you conscious/aware of your consciousness? Are you in a "place" in the afterlife? This is a topic that has interested me for a while. So far, I haven't been able to find a straight forward answer. So, I'm asking atheists to give me their beliefs on this subject.

Nothing "happens" in the context you mean. When you die, it's exactly like before you were born; nothingness, and no conscious experience. This seems to be the conservative, and most logical position (while adhering to Occam'z Razor the most as well). The afterlife seems like nothing more than a pipe dream for people scared of death, while a negative afterlife being a product of our wish to have bad people pay for what they do.
Rational_Thinker9119
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9/26/2013 3:35:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Of course, like most things in life, I could be wrong. However, I've never seen any credible evidence of an afterlife, and there is nothing about reality which indicates there is one. It seems rather obvious that there is no reason why there would be one! If there is a God, why would he give two craps about the conduct of some advanced apes on a floating ball in some random galaxy? It makes no sense to me lol Only we care about our conduct...
AndersonHunter
Posts: 47
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9/26/2013 3:41:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/26/2013 3:12:53 PM, Chuwilliams wrote:
According to your atheist ideology, what happens when you die? More specifically, are you conscious/aware of your consciousness? Are you in a "place" in the afterlife? This is a topic that has interested me for a while. So far, I haven't been able to find a straight forward answer. So, I'm asking atheists to give me their beliefs on this subject.

Here's a portion of something I wrote a couple of years ago pertaining to your questions. I am an atheist and do believe that it is more likely that death is an end, not a transitional state. However, I do like to keep an open mind and explore different ideas. Hope you find it interesting...

Let me start by stating that I believe who we are, what we are and what we could be, lies within consciousness itself. While alive, consciousness rest within the perimeters of our mind. That is to say, acting in conjunction with the wiring of the brain as to control all aspects of bodily mechanics, while maintaining a diverse range of seemingly non measurable products such as aspirational thought, interpretation, morality, self examination and projection, rationalization and formulation by inference, etc.

We know that the body can be kept alive even after the brain becomes permanently non functional. However, who we were ceased to exist. The accumulation of data, experiences and memories are lost. In this case we are simply a living shell devoid of awareness. The question that must be asked is what happens to consciousness when the physical matter of the mind has irreversible damage or death. Does consciousness simply vanish and become nonexistent? Or, does consciousness transcend the physical body and exist independent of it? Is consciousness bound to local matter or is it does it have universal property? Does consciousness transfer from one state to another? These are all questions that have to be asked and examined.

We must first look at rather consciousness is comparable by any known means of subject that is both concrete and abstract in it's very nature. The answer would seem to be no. It is indeed non relational to any other existent form and cannot be studied to any specific degree do it it's boundless variables. Remember, we are not talking about the neurological function and properties of the physical brain, but the metaphysical essence of who we are that resides within the brain.

Next we must examine whether consciousness is constrained by physical, biological or neurological boundaries or does it exist in a dimension free of spatial or finite limitations. Some refer to it as the "ghost in the machine". Indeed, the conscious is aware, knowing and present even when we sleep.

If the conscious were a physical thing, then of course it would cease to exist at some point as all physical matter does. However, consciousness itself is not an physical composition, but rather an abstract illumination.

I don't want this to go on and on, so I will share what my thoughts are. I believe that consciousness may exist independent of the physical body. That is to say that consciousness requires a physical brain to be active and associative within a body, but is not reliant on physical matter for it's existence. By what means we acquire consciousness is still a very intriguing question. However, I think there is a very real possibility that consciousness does indeed transcend physical death and that it exists somewhere in a state of universal relativity.

I think that when one ask "why are we here" or "what is the purpose of life", it may very well be the inherent journey to seek one's conscious self, truth and enlightenment as to the "state of pure consciousness" that could be possible. Once our bodies die, the state of consciousness we have achieved will continue in a transcendent state. Consider that consciousness is an energy, an animation, a life force and that it is a "being" all it's own. If consciousness is pure energy, then it would seem to suggest that the pure energy would not cease to exist, but take on new form or state of being. I think if there is an afterlife of some sort, this may be the closest to what it could be.

Of course, this is purely conjecture. But then again, all versions of afterlife are best guess assumptions. This version, in the scheme of what we know to be real and verifiable, offers, in my opinion, a better argument than religion based notions. Of course, not one will know until that time comes.

Anderson Hunter
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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9/26/2013 4:30:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/26/2013 3:12:53 PM, Chuwilliams wrote:
According to your atheist ideology, what happens when you die? More specifically, are you conscious/aware of your consciousness? Are you in a "place" in the afterlife? This is a topic that has interested me for a while. So far, I haven't been able to find a straight forward answer. So, I'm asking atheists to give me their beliefs on this subject.

My consciousness and everything I perceive as my identity ceases to be.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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9/26/2013 4:35:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"I haven't been able to find a straight forward answer"

Also, I find the above hard to believe... What group of Atheists are you getting mixed responses from? Pretty much every Atheist I have talked to believes that most likely, nothing happens when you die as far as an afterlife is concerned. Your consciousness just doesn't exist, just like before birth.
Chuwilliams
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9/26/2013 6:36:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
There's some good discussion all around here. I'm going to try to personally respond to all of you.

@Rational_Thinker9119

Your response is what I figured most Atheists would say. However, I didn't want to just assume, I wanted to get viewpoints of some Atheists. As far as not getting a clear answer, what I meant by that is that I have asked some of my Atheist friends. The responses I've gotten were all "I don't know". Sorry for the confusion.

@AndersonHunter

What a thought provoking perspective. Your possible theory that "since consciousness isn't physical matter, it's doesn't erode away, but lives on" is coherent. What I find interesting is that you state that the body dies, but consciousness potentially continues after death. However, consciousness continuing after death is a principle that is ingrained in many religions (often referred to as a "soul"). I find it interesting that you, as an Atheist, derive a potential viewpoint, from a basic religious concept. Regardless, your analysis is very intellectually sound.

@dafterman

Interesting viewpoint. Please elaborate further.

In addition, I have another question for any Atheist who is reading this. Do you believe in reincarnation and why?
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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9/26/2013 6:45:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think the biggest problem with this line of questioning is when you ask "according to your atheist ideology".

Atheism is a single position. It is not, on its own, an ideology. Any position on these questions does, almost certainly, have an ideological backing...but you will get a diverse response.

Are you trying to find "the atheist answer" to these questions? Because there isn't such a thing.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
Illegalcombatant
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9/26/2013 7:04:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/26/2013 3:12:53 PM, Chuwilliams wrote:
According to your atheist ideology, what happens when you die? More specifically, are you conscious/aware of your consciousness? Are you in a "place" in the afterlife? This is a topic that has interested me for a while. So far, I haven't been able to find a straight forward answer. So, I'm asking atheists to give me their beliefs on this subject.

Atheist ideology ? It'z amazing that a lack of belief in one thing becomes an ideology. Funny how it only applies to the lack of the belief in God/s but not to aliens that come to earth every now and then and rape remote farmers............just saying.

I think you will find most atheists lean towards to the view that there is no after life. One reason for this is because they view it is more probable that consciousness is dependent on the brain , so once the brain is completely destroyed so goes the consciousnesses it produced.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
drafterman
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9/26/2013 7:23:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
@dafterman

Interesting viewpoint. Please elaborate further.

There is nothing to elaborate. Your consciousness comes to and end. Period.


In addition, I have another question for any Atheist who is reading this. Do you believe in reincarnation and why?

No. Because there is no evidence of it nor any known mechanism by which it can occur.
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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9/26/2013 8:53:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/26/2013 3:12:53 PM, Chuwilliams wrote:
According to your atheist ideology, what happens when you die? More specifically, are you conscious/aware of your consciousness? Are you in a "place" in the afterlife? This is a topic that has interested me for a while. So far, I haven't been able to find a straight forward answer. So, I'm asking atheists to give me their beliefs on this subject.

No there is no place where we die. Our thoughts are create by our brain, and once we are dead, and our brain ceases to function, then so do our thoughts, and without thoughts we are simply a body. A decaying body at that.

I take comfort in that when I die I shall leave things behind. My family shall remember me, and hopefully my name shall be in the family books along with pictures, until that too fades from memory, and I am but a distant ancestor, a name, nothing more. Then soon after that, the world will end, or the records will be lost, and my existence will have been for nothing. And that's okay with me. That means that I can live for me and the betterment of my community for the future. I can seize life, because I know its the only one I'll get.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
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Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
Andromeda_Z
Posts: 4,151
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9/26/2013 10:13:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/26/2013 3:12:53 PM, Chuwilliams wrote:
According to your atheist ideology, what happens when you die? More specifically, are you conscious/aware of your consciousness? Are you in a "place" in the afterlife? This is a topic that has interested me for a while. So far, I haven't been able to find a straight forward answer. So, I'm asking atheists to give me their beliefs on this subject.

Honestly, I have no idea. It would be stupid for me to claim to, seeing as I've never died that I can recall. But what I do know is, my body will decay. Then so will the sun itself, eventually turning into a nova and engulfing our planet. It's a beautiful thing for me to think that one day, my atoms will be part of something so amazing. Even if there is no afterlife, I'll be satisfied on my deathbed, knowing that I'll be part of something so beautiful. I don't need to think God created this universe for me to find wonder in it.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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9/27/2013 12:49:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/26/2013 3:12:53 PM, Chuwilliams wrote:
According to your atheist ideology, what happens when you die? More specifically, are you conscious/aware of your consciousness? Are you in a "place" in the afterlife? This is a topic that has interested me for a while. So far, I haven't been able to find a straight forward answer. So, I'm asking atheists to give me their beliefs on this subject.

Are you conscious of yourself in deep sleep?
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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9/27/2013 12:52:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/27/2013 12:49:23 AM, Wnope wrote:
At 9/26/2013 3:12:53 PM, Chuwilliams wrote:
According to your atheist ideology, what happens when you die? More specifically, are you conscious/aware of your consciousness? Are you in a "place" in the afterlife? This is a topic that has interested me for a while. So far, I haven't been able to find a straight forward answer. So, I'm asking atheists to give me their beliefs on this subject.

Are you conscious of yourself in deep sleep?

To give the cheat sheet: no, you aren't.

There is no experience. Time passes, but at no time do "you" have experiences.

It is similar with death. You can't be conscious of death. You can't experience it. No more than you can be conscious of deep sleep.
Mysterious_Stranger
Posts: 1,562
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9/27/2013 1:38:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Nothing happens when you die besides the fact that your bodily functions shut down, you cease to exist when you die.
Turn around, go back.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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9/27/2013 1:48:06 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Well, I think you have your answer. As Atheists, we don't know 100% but we believe that most likely there is no afterlife at all. You can close this thread now...
Contejour
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9/27/2013 2:22:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
As an Atheist I do not believe in an afterlife of any sort , in fact I find the idea ludicrous , I do understand when people say it gives them comfort to believe in an afterlife , but I was never convinced and thought the whole idea weird . I am happy enough to accept that this life is all I have ,and it's been great so far . Half the problem seems to be most people find the idea of nothing after life terrifying
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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9/27/2013 2:59:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/27/2013 2:22:09 AM, Contejour wrote:
As an Atheist I do not believe in an afterlife of any sort , in fact I find the idea ludicrous , I do understand when people say it gives them comfort to believe in an afterlife , but I was never convinced and thought the whole idea weird . I am happy enough to accept that this life is all I have ,and it's been great so far . Half the problem seems to be most people find the idea of nothing after life terrifying

I couldn't agree with you more brother. Out of all the creatures there are, we seem to be the only ones with complex enough brains to be able to realize that no matter what we do; we die...for sure. All other animals, like common carnivores for instance, will just go around eating other animals thinking that is all there is; completely oblivious to the fact that no matter how good they are at surviving, their body will go and they will die. Because we are so smart, we conjure up the idea of an afterlife to cope with the idea of death. And the idea of a negative afterlife (hell) stems from the hurt of seeing somebody get away with evil. It's "nice" to know that no matter how bad somebody is, they have to have to answer to someone greater. Of course, self-evidently (to anybody who isn't deluded by this wild fantasy), this is all wishful thinking.
Contejour
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9/27/2013 5:20:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hello my friend and thank you , I find it absolutely mystifying that believers claim they get solace from this belief in an after life , where from what I have seen here in (catholic Ireland) the opposite seems to be true they seem to fear death even more ,out of absurd fears they may have offended God in some way.It is great to here from a free thinker, and I enjoyed reading your enlightened words.
MysticEgg
Posts: 524
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9/27/2013 5:52:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The OP was surprisingly polite. I salute you, sir!

I am intrigued as to why "I don't know" isn't a straight answer when it is the correct one. Three honest words that aren't that misguiding, surely?

We don't know and despite what people think, no one knows. Although we can make fairy strong predictions based off evidence.

Summed up:
Not much.

D
MysticEgg
Posts: 524
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9/27/2013 5:59:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Just realised, this is a straw man. This is our ideology:

The disbelief in a deity of deities.

We have an afterlife ideology now?
ethang5
Posts: 4,084
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9/27/2013 7:40:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hi all,

Rational_Thinker9119 - If there is a God, why would he give two craps about the conduct of some advanced apes on a floating ball in some random galaxy?

Because He made them and owns them? If He created them, then I don't think it's a stretch to assume He has some interest.

Rational_Thinker9119 - Of course, self-evidently (to anybody who isn't deluded by this wild fantasy), this is all wishful thinking.

So virtually for 6,000 years, the entire world missed something that is self-evident??? Do you know the meaning of "self-evident"? It is fine to say you think religion is a fantasy, but to say that atheism is self-evident is ludicrous. And worse, to say that it is self-evident only to those who don't believe is circular reasoning.

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Illegalcombatant - Atheist ideology ? It'z amazing that a lack of belief in one thing becomes an ideology.

http://news.yahoo.com...

Beliefs evolve. As any Christian who has debated an atheist online can attest, American atheism entails way more than just a simple lack of belief in God. And now, as we see, atheists themselves are calling atheism a religion.

Illegalcombatant - Funny how it only applies to the lack of the belief in God/s but not to aliens that come to earth every now and then and rape remote farmers............just saying.

It is funny. People who lack a belief in alien conspiracies don't seem to be as devout in their non-belief as atheists are. I wonder why?

Illegalcombatant - I think you will find most atheists lean towards to the view that there is no after life. One reason for this is because they view it is more probable that consciousness is dependent on the brain , so once the brain is completely destroyed so goes the consciousnesses it produced.

While I disagree with the above position, it is still a reasonable conclusion to come to. But what if our brains are only interfaces? For example, on our computers, the operating system is only an interface. You can destroy the interface without harming the computer itself. An imperfect example would be locked in syndrome. A person is conscious but cannot communicate with the outside world in any way. To an observer , such a person would appear to be profoundly unconscious. Displaying consciousness may be dependent on the brain, but consciousness itself may not be.
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Lordgrae - Then soon after that, the world will end, or the records will be lost, and my existence will have been for nothing. And that's okay with me. That means that I can live for me and the betterment of my community for the future. I can seize life, because I know its the only one I'll get.

This seems to be the basic philosophy of Stalin, Mao, and Hitler to name a few. I don't mean to be insulting. Perhaps I did not understand what you meant.
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Andromeda_Z - I don't need to think God created this universe for me to find wonder in it.

Comments like this by atheists never fail to puzzle me. So what that you find wonder? Is the point of belief in God to find wonder in the universe? A guy who doesn't believe that electricity and the physics of pressure run refrigerators can still find value in refrigerators. So what? The fact that he does will not lessen the truth of electricity and physics. The goal of a believer is not in finding wonder. So you find wonder in the universe and then imply equality of experience with a believer! As if "finding wonder" was the purpose of belief in God. egad.
Graincruncher
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9/27/2013 8:14:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/27/2013 7:40:11 AM, ethang5 wrote:
So virtually for 6,000 years, the entire world missed something that is self-evident??? Do you know the meaning of "self-evident"? It is fine to say you think religion is a fantasy, but to say that atheism is self-evident is ludicrous. And worse, to say that it is self-evident only to those who don't believe is circular reasoning.

The entire world has been Christian for virtually 6,000 years? And believing something for a long time is an indicator of its truth? Oh. Wait... no, on both counts.

Atheism isn't necessarily self-evident. Religion is self-evidently ridiculous, though; in any other context, invisible wizards who sacrifice themselves, talking elephants, flying horses and so forth would be taken as self-evidently fantastical concepts.

Beliefs evolve. As any Christian who has debated an atheist online can attest, American atheism entails way more than just a simple lack of belief in God. And now, as we see, atheists themselves are calling atheism a religion.

Throughout the article you linked, the founders of the organisation are clear that they do not consider it a religion at all and that they "don't think religion should have a monopoly on community". You should try reading your own sources. You also need to stop conflating what 'some atheists' say with 'what all atheists' think - even if some had decided to refer to it as a religion doesn't mean they're right. They aren't. Why? Because the whole point is precisely that atheism isn't a religion and therefore doesn't have a central dogma; the ONLY determinant is whether you believe in god or not. If you don't, you're an atheist. If you do, you're a theist. Beyond that there is literally nothing linking atheists to one another.

So even if some div decided to start claiming atheism is a religion, they are no more a credible witness than a Christian who went around burning people and raping their bodies "in the name of Jesus" would be a 'real' Christian. If you think there's anything more to that, you're either arguing with morons (always possible on the internet) or not listening to what is actually being said to you.

It is funny. People who lack a belief in alien conspiracies don't seem to be as devout in their non-belief as atheists are. I wonder why?

Is this a joke? Do you really think the two are comparable?

While I disagree with the above position, it is still a reasonable conclusion to come to. But what if our brains are only interfaces? For example, on our computers, the operating system is only an interface. You can destroy the interface without harming the computer itself. An imperfect example would be locked in syndrome. A person is conscious but cannot communicate with the outside world in any way. To an observer , such a person would appear to be profoundly unconscious. Displaying consciousness may be dependent on the brain, but consciousness itself may not be.

What if our brains are cakes? What if our experience of the world is interpreted via fish skin? The point is, if there is no way of measuring, defining or understanding something, we can't talk about it and assuming it to be true is literally nonsensical; i.e. devoid of sense. If there is no reason to believe it to be the case, it is just a guess. An unsubstantiated, blind guess. The point is, you can ask "what if?" about anything. So what? Until I have reason to believe that there is something more, it is absurd for me to hold that there is. And when I say 'absurd', I mean 'meaningless'; no evidence, no definition, no suggestion of either turning up any times soon... that's not strong enough grounds for me to start behaving in a way that I consider morally reprehensible, I'm afraid. If god wants my vote, he's going to have to give me some evidence of his existence and an argument as to why I should turn into a crusading bigot.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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9/27/2013 8:38:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/27/2013 7:40:11 AM, ethang5 wrote:
Hi all,

Rational_Thinker9119 - If there is a God, why would he give two craps about the conduct of some advanced apes on a floating ball in some random galaxy?

Because He made them and owns them? If He created them, then I don't think it's a stretch to assume He has some interest.

Really? I have about half a dozen SimCities I created and own and I don't give two wits about them. 90% of the time I get bored, bulldoze the city and start over again. Don't get me started on Minecraft Worlds

Rational_Thinker9119 - Of course, self-evidently (to anybody who isn't deluded by this wild fantasy), this is all wishful thinking.

So virtually for 6,000 years, the entire world missed something that is self-evident??? Do you know the meaning of "self-evident"? It is fine to say you think religion is a fantasy, but to say that atheism is self-evident is ludicrous. And worse, to say that it is self-evident only to those who don't believe is circular reasoning.

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Illegalcombatant - Atheist ideology ? It'z amazing that a lack of belief in one thing becomes an ideology.

http://news.yahoo.com...

Beliefs evolve. As any Christian who has debated an atheist online can attest, American atheism entails way more than just a simple lack of belief in God. And now, as we see, atheists themselves are calling atheism a religion.

Legal statuses are a weird thing. According to the law, a tomato is not a fruit. Does that mean we need to edit our biology textbooks to redfine what a fruit is? The legal status of religious is a mere measure of practicality, and is NOT definitional. Regardless, saying something doesn't make it so.

Illegalcombatant - Funny how it only applies to the lack of the belief in God/s but not to aliens that come to earth every now and then and rape remote farmers............just saying.

It is funny. People who lack a belief in alien conspiracies don't seem to be as devout in their non-belief as atheists are. I wonder why?

Because for thousands of years theists have attempted to enforce their backwards believes on the entire world through whatever means necessary (mainly through brute force) and that includes today. If theists, on the whole, stopped trying to force their religion down people's throats and getting the governments of the world to adopt and enforce religious edicts, then you'd probably see the "devoutness" of atheism fade.

Illegalcombatant - I think you will find most atheists lean towards to the view that there is no after life. One reason for this is because they view it is more probable that consciousness is dependent on the brain , so once the brain is completely destroyed so goes the consciousnesses it produced.

While I disagree with the above position, it is still a reasonable conclusion to come to. But what if our brains are only interfaces? For example, on our computers, the operating system is only an interface. You can destroy the interface without harming the computer itself. An imperfect example would be locked in syndrome. A person is conscious but cannot communicate with the outside world in any way. To an observer , such a person would appear to be profoundly unconscious. Displaying consciousness may be dependent on the brain, but consciousness itself may not be.

There is no evidence of that. I can show you a computer without an OS. You can't show me a consciousness without a brain.

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Lordgrae - Then soon after that, the world will end, or the records will be lost, and my existence will have been for nothing. And that's okay with me. That means that I can live for me and the betterment of my community for the future. I can seize life, because I know its the only one I'll get.

This seems to be the basic philosophy of Stalin, Mao, and Hitler to name a few. I don't mean to be insulting. Perhaps I did not understand what you meant.

Hitler was a Christian and is on record as having stated that he was motivated by Christianity, but that's merely a pointless red herring that has no bearing on the discussion. Really, why even bring this up? What is your point? They all breathed air, too.

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Andromeda_Z - I don't need to think God created this universe for me to find wonder in it.

Comments like this by atheists never fail to puzzle me. So what that you find wonder? Is the point of belief in God to find wonder in the universe? A guy who doesn't believe that electricity and the physics of pressure run refrigerators can still find value in refrigerators. So what? The fact that he does will not lessen the truth of electricity and physics. The goal of a believer is not in finding wonder. So you find wonder in the universe and then imply equality of experience with a believer! As if "finding wonder" was the purpose of belief in God. egad.

Then what is the goal of a believer?
TN05
Posts: 4,492
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9/27/2013 8:58:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/27/2013 8:38:00 AM, drafterman wrote:
Hitler was a Christian and is on record as having stated that he was motivated by Christianity, but that's merely a pointless red herring that has no bearing on the discussion. Really, why even bring this up? What is your point? They all breathed air, too.

Sorry, that's a blatant untruth. Hitler's long-term goal was the eradication of Christianity or its subjugation to Nazi ideology - this is because a large organization with a lot of followers (like the Catholic Church) could pose a significant threat to the supremacy of the state. In taking power, however, Hitler adopted the public image of a Christian, because the vast majority of Germans were Christians - this is not surprising, because many tyrants lie to gain and maintain public standing.

Hitler did believe in a God (his belief in the genetic superiority of the 'Aryan' race and the inferiority of the Jews was partly founded on the idea that they were both created that way) but it was hardly a Christian one - it was pretty much a deist God.

If you don't believe me, check out the following:
*http://www.nytimes.com...
*http://org.law.rutgers.edu...
*https://en.wikipedia.org...
ethang5
Posts: 4,084
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9/27/2013 9:13:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Graincruncher - The entire world has been Christian for virtually 6,000 years?

I don't know. Who said so? The entire world has been virtually theist for 6,000 years. Precision is a virtue.

Graincruncher - And believing something for a long time is an indicator of its truth?

No, but saying that the opposite of something believed by almost everyone for 6,000 is "self-evident" is indeed ludacrous. I am not saying what they believed is true, or that because they believed it for so long means it is true. I am saying that your calling the opposite belief "self-evident" is irrational. Precision is a virtue.

Graincruncher - Atheism isn't necessarily self-evident.

Thank you for moving towards rationality, but atheism is never self-evident.

Graincruncher - You also need to stop conflating what 'some atheists' say with 'what all atheists' think...

Does that principle also apply to what you say about christianity?

Graincruncher - - even if some [atheists] had decided to refer to it as a religion doesn't mean they're right. They aren't.

Ok, some atheists think it can be called a religion. You don't. You win. Got it.

Graincruncher - Beyond that there is literally nothing linking atheists to one another.

Really? Then it is truly amazing that atheists behave and respond so predictably that I can be right 90 percent of the time in "guessing" their non-religious beliefs.

Graincruncher - Is this a joke? Do you really think the two are comparable?

It was brought up by Illegalcombatant, not me. But I didn't compare them, I noticed how much more devout atheists were in defending their beliefs and going after those who disagreed. Just like zealots.

Graincruncher - if there is no way of measuring, defining or understanding something, we can't talk about it and assuming it to be true is literally nonsensical;

No one called it true. I asked about a possibility. It was interesting and on topic. That is what is done on DDO. But tell me, do you really think the two questions below have equal gravitas?

1. But what if our brains are only interfaces?
2. What if our experience of the world is interpreted via fish skin?

If you do, never mind.

Graincruncher - The point is, you can ask "what if?" about anything.

That is true, but I also know that not all "What if" questions are equal. Some lead to serious investigation and some are simply stupid. Can you tell the difference?

Graincruncher - If god wants my vote, he's going to have to give me some evidence of his existence and an argument as to why I should turn into a crusading bigot.

Well then, it is fortunate for you that God doesn't want your "vote". And I'm pretty sure He also doesn't need your "vote". The next time you come across the person who convinced you that God wanted your "vote", confront him/her on the untruth.

But judging by your....ahem, fervor against theists in general and Christians in particular, I can see that you aren't bigoted at all. No Sir. Feel free to continue your un-bigoted crusading.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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9/27/2013 9:18:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/27/2013 8:58:44 AM, TN05 wrote:
At 9/27/2013 8:38:00 AM, drafterman wrote:
Hitler was a Christian and is on record as having stated that he was motivated by Christianity, but that's merely a pointless red herring that has no bearing on the discussion. Really, why even bring this up? What is your point? They all breathed air, too.

Sorry, that's a blatant untruth. Hitler's long-term goal was the eradication of Christianity or its subjugation to Nazi ideology - this is because a large organization with a lot of followers (like the Catholic Church) could pose a significant threat to the supremacy of the state. In taking power, however, Hitler adopted the public image of a Christian, because the vast majority of Germans were Christians - this is not surprising, because many tyrants lie to gain and maintain public standing.

In other words, he - on the record - stated he was motivated by Christianity. From your own link:

"In public speeches, he often made statements that affirmed a belief in Christianity..."

So, what exactly about what I said is untrue?

The technical fact as to whether or not he was a "Christian?" Well, that topic is still in debate, isn't it? And it calls into question how you determine whether or not someone is a Christian to begin with.

Given that there are many Christians today that distinguish between an ideology of Christianity and a religion of Christianity and a church of Christianity, it would be improper to conflate the two.

https://www.facebook.com...

While I disagree with the above claptrap, I do agree that there is certainly a distinction between the "religion" of Christianity and the Christian church entities. I won't deny that he was hostile to the political and social Christian organizations - they were impediments to his power, but that, in itself, doesn't disqualify him from being a Christian.

And, even if we technically disqualify him as a Christian, there is the larger issue of theism/deism, which he still could have been (and which still disqualifies him as the atheist the OP claimed him to be).


Hitler did believe in a God (his belief in the genetic superiority of the 'Aryan' race and the inferiority of the Jews was partly founded on the idea that they were both created that way) but it was hardly a Christian one - it was pretty much a deist God.

Ok, well, then the point made by the OP I was referred to is still invalid. So which do you think would be more appropriate: arguing with me over what amounts to an irrelevant technicality; or arguing with the OP who called Hitler an atheist in order to tie atheists in general to the policies and ideology of a genocidal maniac?

If you don't believe me, check out the following:
*http://www.nytimes.com...
*http://org.law.rutgers.edu...
*https://en.wikipedia.org...
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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9/27/2013 9:26:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/27/2013 9:18:11 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 9/27/2013 8:58:44 AM, TN05 wrote:
At 9/27/2013 8:38:00 AM, drafterman wrote:
Hitler was a Christian and is on record as having stated that he was motivated by Christianity, but that's merely a pointless red herring that has no bearing on the discussion. Really, why even bring this up? What is your point? They all breathed air, too.

Sorry, that's a blatant untruth. Hitler's long-term goal was the eradication of Christianity or its subjugation to Nazi ideology - this is because a large organization with a lot of followers (like the Catholic Church) could pose a significant threat to the supremacy of the state. In taking power, however, Hitler adopted the public image of a Christian, because the vast majority of Germans were Christians - this is not surprising, because many tyrants lie to gain and maintain public standing.

In other words, he - on the record - stated he was motivated by Christianity. From your own link:

"In public speeches, he often made statements that affirmed a belief in Christianity..."

So, what exactly about what I said is untrue?

The technical fact as to whether or not he was a "Christian?" Well, that topic is still in debate, isn't it? And it calls into question how you determine whether or not someone is a Christian to begin with.

Given that there are many Christians today that distinguish between an ideology of Christianity and a religion of Christianity and a church of Christianity, it would be improper to conflate the two.

https://www.facebook.com...

While I disagree with the above claptrap, I do agree that there is certainly a distinction between the "religion" of Christianity and the Christian church entities. I won't deny that he was hostile to the political and social Christian organizations - they were impediments to his power, but that, in itself, doesn't disqualify him from being a Christian.

And, even if we technically disqualify him as a Christian, there is the larger issue of theism/deism, which he still could have been (and which still disqualifies him as the atheist the OP claimed him to be).


Hitler did believe in a God (his belief in the genetic superiority of the 'Aryan' race and the inferiority of the Jews was partly founded on the idea that they were both created that way) but it was hardly a Christian one - it was pretty much a deist God.

Ok, well, then the point made by the OP I was referred to is still invalid. So which do you think would be more appropriate: arguing with me over what amounts to an irrelevant technicality; or arguing with the OP who called Hitler an atheist in order to tie atheists in general to the policies and ideology of a genocidal maniac?

If you don't believe me, check out the following:
*http://www.nytimes.com...
*http://org.law.rutgers.edu...
*https://en.wikipedia.org...

Hitler pretty much hated Christianity. IJS
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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9/27/2013 9:42:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/27/2013 9:26:07 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/27/2013 9:18:11 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 9/27/2013 8:58:44 AM, TN05 wrote:
At 9/27/2013 8:38:00 AM, drafterman wrote:
Hitler was a Christian and is on record as having stated that he was motivated by Christianity, but that's merely a pointless red herring that has no bearing on the discussion. Really, why even bring this up? What is your point? They all breathed air, too.

Sorry, that's a blatant untruth. Hitler's long-term goal was the eradication of Christianity or its subjugation to Nazi ideology - this is because a large organization with a lot of followers (like the Catholic Church) could pose a significant threat to the supremacy of the state. In taking power, however, Hitler adopted the public image of a Christian, because the vast majority of Germans were Christians - this is not surprising, because many tyrants lie to gain and maintain public standing.

In other words, he - on the record - stated he was motivated by Christianity. From your own link:

"In public speeches, he often made statements that affirmed a belief in Christianity..."

So, what exactly about what I said is untrue?

The technical fact as to whether or not he was a "Christian?" Well, that topic is still in debate, isn't it? And it calls into question how you determine whether or not someone is a Christian to begin with.

Given that there are many Christians today that distinguish between an ideology of Christianity and a religion of Christianity and a church of Christianity, it would be improper to conflate the two.

https://www.facebook.com...

While I disagree with the above claptrap, I do agree that there is certainly a distinction between the "religion" of Christianity and the Christian church entities. I won't deny that he was hostile to the political and social Christian organizations - they were impediments to his power, but that, in itself, doesn't disqualify him from being a Christian.

And, even if we technically disqualify him as a Christian, there is the larger issue of theism/deism, which he still could have been (and which still disqualifies him as the atheist the OP claimed him to be).


Hitler did believe in a God (his belief in the genetic superiority of the 'Aryan' race and the inferiority of the Jews was partly founded on the idea that they were both created that way) but it was hardly a Christian one - it was pretty much a deist God.

Ok, well, then the point made by the OP I was referred to is still invalid. So which do you think would be more appropriate: arguing with me over what amounts to an irrelevant technicality; or arguing with the OP who called Hitler an atheist in order to tie atheists in general to the policies and ideology of a genocidal maniac?

If you don't believe me, check out the following:
*http://www.nytimes.com...
*http://org.law.rutgers.edu...
*https://en.wikipedia.org...

Hitler pretty much hated Christianity. IJS

Unless you're asserting that he was an atheist, then that's beside the point in question. And if you're not asserting that he was an atheist, then the point you should be arguing with is against the OP.