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God's Omniscience and my Free Will ???

rroberts
Posts: 27
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9/27/2013 8:22:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Theists argue that God's Omniscience and my Free Will both exist. I maintain that one or the other must be eliminated.
The best they do is say the issue was settled centuries ago and provide several pages of unreadable theological answers. If pressed some say God is above human logic, He made the rules, He can change them. The basic logical reasoning follows, it is not new:

1. Assume God exists and knows all the past, present, and future. This includes my restaurant choice tonight, beef or chicken.
2. He could write it down and seal it in an envelope, and give it to me.
3. I could open the envelope before ordering , read it and order the opposite of what He wrote.

This means either He did not know the future, and that He made a mistake, or I am uncontrollably compelled to order his choice eliminating my Free Will. There is no other answer.
rr
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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9/27/2013 9:47:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/27/2013 8:22:23 AM, rroberts wrote:
Theists argue that God's Omniscience and my Free Will both exist. I maintain that one or the other must be eliminated.
The best they do is say the issue was settled centuries ago and provide several pages of unreadable theological answers. If pressed some say God is above human logic, He made the rules, He can change them. The basic logical reasoning follows, it is not new:

1. Assume God exists and knows all the past, present, and future. This includes my restaurant choice tonight, beef or chicken.
2. He could write it down and seal it in an envelope, and give it to me.
3. I could open the envelope before ordering , read it and order the opposite of what He wrote.

This means either He did not know the future, and that He made a mistake, or I am uncontrollably compelled to order his choice eliminating my Free Will. There is no other answer.

God never said about something it will be, then it didn't happen!

Until you find that out, you must know that your premises are false for the simple reason that they will never happen! God (the omniscient creator) never give away an information that end up happening otherwise. never sent a "sealed!" envelop to anyone.

You don't base your logic on (coulds in the clouds)!!
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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9/27/2013 9:53:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/27/2013 9:47:07 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 9/27/2013 8:22:23 AM, rroberts wrote:
Theists argue that God's Omniscience and my Free Will both exist. I maintain that one or the other must be eliminated.
The best they do is say the issue was settled centuries ago and provide several pages of unreadable theological answers. If pressed some say God is above human logic, He made the rules, He can change them. The basic logical reasoning follows, it is not new:

1. Assume God exists and knows all the past, present, and future. This includes my restaurant choice tonight, beef or chicken.
2. He could write it down and seal it in an envelope, and give it to me.
3. I could open the envelope before ordering , read it and order the opposite of what He wrote.

This means either He did not know the future, and that He made a mistake, or I am uncontrollably compelled to order his choice eliminating my Free Will. There is no other answer.

God never said about something it will be, then it didn't happen!

Until you find that out, you must know that your premises are false for the simple reason that they will never happen! God (the omniscient creator) never give away an information that end up happening otherwise. never sent a "sealed!" envelop to anyone.

You don't base your logic on (coulds in the clouds)!!
Well your god did. Remember when he said that muhammad met an angel and the angel told him to read and he couldn't and so the angel took away the book he was supposed to read?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
ethang5
Posts: 4,084
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9/27/2013 10:42:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/27/2013 8:22:23 AM, rroberts wrote:
Theists argue that God's Omniscience and my Free Will both exist. I maintain that one or the other must be eliminated.
The best they do is say the issue was settled centuries ago and provide several pages of unreadable theological answers. If pressed some say God is above human logic, He made the rules, He can change them. The basic logical reasoning follows, it is not new:

1. Assume God exists and knows all the past, present, and future. This includes my restaurant choice tonight, beef or chicken.
2. He could write it down and seal it in an envelope, and give it to me.
3. I could open the envelope before ordering , read it and order the opposite of what He wrote.

This means either He did not know the future, and that He made a mistake, or I am uncontrollably compelled to order his choice eliminating my Free Will. There is no other answer.

But wouldn't God know beforehand that you would open up the envelope and order the opposite? This "dilemma" was touched upon in the movie Bruce Almighty. Jim Carrey tries to trick God with the old both-hands-behind-back-how-many-fingers-am-I-holding-up trick. He is changing finger up number while God is "guessing". God "guesses". He shrieks "AHA! and brings his hands forward only to see that he has 6 fingers on his hand. The scene is very funny.

1. Assume God exists and knows all the past, present, and future. This includes my restaurant choice tonight, beef or chicken.
2. He could write it down and seal it in an envelope, and give it to me.
3. I could open the envelope before ordering , read it and order the opposite of what He wrote.

What rroberts didn't know was it was opposite night at the restaurant. He sees that God wrote "chicken", he orders the opposite beef. He receives chicken, just as God predicted.

But seriously, your argument is illogical, because if we assume 1. God exists and knows all the past, present, and future, then He must also know that you would see His choice and order the opposite. You cannot have 2 contradicting assumptions in your premise.

Further, your 3 possible conclusions, 1. God knows everything, 2. God doesn't make mistakes, 3. You have free will, have already been disallowed in your premise

God cannot write down your choice now because you have no choice. You are waiting to form one when you see what He wrote. For example, God cannot tell you the current age of your child if you have no children yet.
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,077
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9/27/2013 11:02:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/27/2013 8:22:23 AM, rroberts wrote:
Theists argue that God's Omniscience and my Free Will both exist. I maintain that one or the other must be eliminated.
The best they do is say the issue was settled centuries ago and provide several pages of unreadable theological answers. If pressed some say God is above human logic, He made the rules, He can change them. The basic logical reasoning follows, it is not new:

1. Assume God exists and knows all the past, present, and future. This includes my restaurant choice tonight, beef or chicken.
2. He could write it down and seal it in an envelope, and give it to me.
3. I could open the envelope before ordering , read it and order the opposite of what He wrote.

This means either He did not know the future, and that He made a mistake, or I am uncontrollably compelled to order his choice eliminating my Free Will. There is no other answer.

Nope. God doesn't exist in time as your argument seems to presuppose. It's not like God just knows the future. He exists *outside* of time. So in a way, the future is already present to God. God already exists in the future.

Try to think of it in terms of B-series time, and God just existing outside of that.

The argument doesn't work since it is aimed at a deity which is bound to time.

Well he would know that you were going to change your mind and order something else, right? Otherwise he's not omniscient if he didn't know that.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,077
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9/27/2013 11:03:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/27/2013 10:42:50 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 9/27/2013 8:22:23 AM, rroberts wrote:
Theists argue that God's Omniscience and my Free Will both exist. I maintain that one or the other must be eliminated.
The best they do is say the issue was settled centuries ago and provide several pages of unreadable theological answers. If pressed some say God is above human logic, He made the rules, He can change them. The basic logical reasoning follows, it is not new:

1. Assume God exists and knows all the past, present, and future. This includes my restaurant choice tonight, beef or chicken.
2. He could write it down and seal it in an envelope, and give it to me.
3. I could open the envelope before ordering , read it and order the opposite of what He wrote.

This means either He did not know the future, and that He made a mistake, or I am uncontrollably compelled to order his choice eliminating my Free Will. There is no other answer.

But wouldn't God know beforehand that you would open up the envelope and order the opposite? This "dilemma" was touched upon in the movie Bruce Almighty. Jim Carrey tries to trick God with the old both-hands-behind-back-how-many-fingers-am-I-holding-up trick. He is changing finger up number while God is "guessing". God "guesses". He shrieks "AHA! and brings his hands forward only to see that he has 6 fingers on his hand. The scene is very funny.

1. Assume God exists and knows all the past, present, and future. This includes my restaurant choice tonight, beef or chicken.
2. He could write it down and seal it in an envelope, and give it to me.
3. I could open the envelope before ordering , read it and order the opposite of what He wrote.

What rroberts didn't know was it was opposite night at the restaurant. He sees that God wrote "chicken", he orders the opposite beef. He receives chicken, just as God predicted.

But seriously, your argument is illogical, because if we assume 1. God exists and knows all the past, present, and future, then He must also know that you would see His choice and order the opposite. You cannot have 2 contradicting assumptions in your premise.

Further, your 3 possible conclusions, 1. God knows everything, 2. God doesn't make mistakes, 3. You have free will, have already been disallowed in your premise

God cannot write down your choice now because you have no choice. You are waiting to form one when you see what He wrote. For example, God cannot tell you the current age of your child if you have no children yet.

This.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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9/27/2013 11:17:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/27/2013 9:53:20 AM, bulproof wrote: : : At 9/27/2013 9:47:07 AM, Fruitytree wrote: : : : At 9/27/2013 8:22:23 AM, rroberts wrote: : : : Theists argue thatGod's Omniscience and my Free Will both exist. I maintain that one or the other must be eliminated. : : : The best they do is say the issue was settled centuries ago and provide several pages of unreadable theological answers. If pressed some sayGod is above human logic, He made the rules, He can change them. The basic logical reasoning follows, it is not new: : : : : : : 1. AssumeGod exists andknows all the past, present, and future. This includes my restaurant choice tonight, beef or chicken. : : : 2. He could write it down and seal it in an envelope, and give it to me. : : : 3. I could open the envelope before ordering , read it and order the opposite of what He wrote. : : : : : : This means either He did notknow the future, and that He made a mistake, or I am uncontrollably compelled to order his choice eliminating my Free Will. There is no other answer. : : : :God never said about something it will be, then it didn't happen! : : : : Until you find that out, you mustknow that your premises are false for the simple reason that they will never happen!God (the omniscient creator) never give away an information that end up happening otherwise. never sent a "sealed!" envelop to anyone. : : : : You don't base your logic on (coulds in the clouds)!! : Well yourgod did. Remember when he said that muhammad met an angel and the angel told him to read and he couldn't and so the angel took away the book he was supposed to read?

You mix up commands and future, here we're talking about the knowledge of future actions, not about commands! and Mohammed ended up reading the Quran, but not written!
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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9/27/2013 11:19:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/27/2013 11:02:53 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 9/27/2013 8:22:23 AM, rroberts wrote:
Theists argue that God's Omniscience and my Free Will both exist. I maintain that one or the other must be eliminated.
The best they do is say the issue was settled centuries ago and provide several pages of unreadable theological answers. If pressed some say God is above human logic, He made the rules, He can change them. The basic logical reasoning follows, it is not new:

1. Assume God exists and knows all the past, present, and future. This includes my restaurant choice tonight, beef or chicken.
2. He could write it down and seal it in an envelope, and give it to me.
3. I could open the envelope before ordering , read it and order the opposite of what He wrote.

This means either He did not know the future, and that He made a mistake, or I am uncontrollably compelled to order his choice eliminating my Free Will. There is no other answer.

Nope. God doesn't exist in time as your argument seems to presuppose. It's not like God just knows the future. He exists *outside* of time. So in a way, the future is already present to God. God already exists in the future.

Try to think of it in terms of B-series time, and God just existing outside of that.

The argument doesn't work since it is aimed at a deity which is bound to time.

Well he would know that you were going to change your mind and order something else, right? Otherwise he's not omniscient if he didn't know that.

I love the braindead argument.
God is not restricted by time, ergo god knows past present and future and therefore can't know the future.
Yep, I get ya. woohoo.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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9/27/2013 11:23:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/27/2013 11:19:26 AM, bulproof wrote: : : At 9/27/2013 11:02:53 AM, I love the braindead argument. :God is not restricted by time, ergogod knows past present and future and therefore can'tknow the future. : Yep, I get ya. woohoo.

His premise and your premise are different to start with, his conclusion doesn't follow from his premise cause it's base on "could ". and you don't know the difference between :You will hit your head at 4 pm, and : Hit your head now!
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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9/27/2013 11:27:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/27/2013 11:23:40 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 9/27/2013 11:19:26 AM, bulproof wrote: : : At 9/27/2013 11:02:53 AM, I love the braindead argument. :God is not restricted by time, ergogod knows past present and future and therefore can'tknow the future. : Yep, I get ya. woohoo.

His premise and your premise are different to start with, his conclusion doesn't follow from his premise cause it's base on "could ". and you don't know the difference between :You will hit your head at 4 pm, and : Hit your head now!

As I said.
I love the braindead.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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9/27/2013 11:35:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/27/2013 11:27:10 AM, bulproof wrote: : : At 9/27/2013 11:23:40 AM, Fruitytree wrote: : : : At 9/27/2013 11:19:26 AM, bulproof wrote: : : At 9/27/2013 11:02:53 AM,I love the braindead argument. :Godis not restricted by time, ergogod knows past present and future and thereforecan'tknow the future. : Yep,I get ya. woohoo. : : : : His premise and your premise are different to start with, his conclusion doesn't follow from his premise causeit's base on "could ". and you don't know the difference between :You will hit your head at 4 pm, and : Hit your head now! : : AsI said. :I love the braindead.

As I expected , no new ideas!
ethang5
Posts: 4,084
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9/27/2013 1:29:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
As I expected , no new ideas!

Ideas aren't his forte FT. bulproof only wants a platform to spew his hatred of thing dei-licious. If you say, "God created the Earth", bulproof thinks a facepalm is a logical retort.

You'll be fine as long as you don't expect logic from him. Wear a raincoat too. Sometimes his rants are a little spittle filled.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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9/27/2013 2:01:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/27/2013 11:02:53 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 9/27/2013 8:22:23 AM, rroberts wrote:
Theists argue that God's Omniscience and my Free Will both exist. I maintain that one or the other must be eliminated.
The best they do is say the issue was settled centuries ago and provide several pages of unreadable theological answers. If pressed some say God is above human logic, He made the rules, He can change them. The basic logical reasoning follows, it is not new:

1. Assume God exists and knows all the past, present, and future. This includes my restaurant choice tonight, beef or chicken.
2. He could write it down and seal it in an envelope, and give it to me.
3. I could open the envelope before ordering , read it and order the opposite of what He wrote.

This means either He did not know the future, and that He made a mistake, or I am uncontrollably compelled to order his choice eliminating my Free Will. There is no other answer.

Nope. God doesn't exist in time as your argument seems to presuppose. It's not like God just knows the future. He exists *outside* of time. So in a way, the future is already present to God. God already exists in the future.

Try to think of it in terms of B-series time, and God just existing outside of that.

The argument doesn't work since it is aimed at a deity which is bound to time.

Well he would know that you were going to change your mind and order something else, right? Otherwise he's not omniscient if he didn't know that.

"Nope. God doesn't exist in time as your argument seems to presuppose."

If he doesn't exist in time, then he couldn't have created the universe. Even William Lane Craig agrees. If God is timeless, then he is changeless. If he is changeless, then he cannot make any change from "Not creating the universe" to "creating the universe". The only way out of this problem is if God is timeless prior to creation, then places himself in time at the moment of creation. This means, that God is not timeless right now, his timelessness only holds prior to creation.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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9/27/2013 2:04:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/27/2013 8:22:23 AM, rroberts wrote:
Theists argue that God's Omniscience and my Free Will both exist. I maintain that one or the other must be eliminated.
The best they do is say the issue was settled centuries ago and provide several pages of unreadable theological answers. If pressed some say God is above human logic, He made the rules, He can change them. The basic logical reasoning follows, it is not new:

1. Assume God exists and knows all the past, present, and future. This includes my restaurant choice tonight, beef or chicken.
2. He could write it down and seal it in an envelope, and give it to me.
3. I could open the envelope before ordering , read it and order the opposite of what He wrote.

This means either He did not know the future, and that He made a mistake, or I am uncontrollably compelled to order his choice eliminating my Free Will. There is no other answer.

Amos 4
13: For lo, he who forms the mountains, and creates the wind, and declares to man what is his thought;

Since our Creator is the one who declares to man what his thoughts are going to be, it's impossible for man to have free will.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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9/27/2013 2:55:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/27/2013 11:02:53 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 9/27/2013 8:22:23 AM, rroberts wrote:
Theists argue that God's Omniscience and my Free Will both exist. I maintain that one or the other must be eliminated.
The best they do is say the issue was settled centuries ago and provide several pages of unreadable theological answers. If pressed some say God is above human logic, He made the rules, He can change them. The basic logical reasoning follows, it is not new:

1. Assume God exists and knows all the past, present, and future. This includes my restaurant choice tonight, beef or chicken.
2. He could write it down and seal it in an envelope, and give it to me.
3. I could open the envelope before ordering , read it and order the opposite of what He wrote.

This means either He did not know the future, and that He made a mistake, or I am uncontrollably compelled to order his choice eliminating my Free Will. There is no other answer.

Nope. God doesn't exist in time as your argument seems to presuppose. It's not like God just knows the future. He exists *outside* of time. So in a way, the future is already present to God. God already exists in the future.

Try to think of it in terms of B-series time, and God just existing outside of that.

The argument doesn't work since it is aimed at a deity which is bound to time.

Well he would know that you were going to change your mind and order something else, right? Otherwise he's not omniscient if he didn't know that.

Also, "exists" is a word entailing a present tense ("existed", and "will exist" being past and future). Therefore, if you say "God exists" you are saying God exists in the present. The term "God exists outside of time" is logically contradictory, because "exists" is present tense, meaning that God has to exist in the present for that sentence to make any sense.
rroberts
Posts: 27
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9/28/2013 9:15:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
OK, so as usual we have the "outside of time" argument which completely ignores the step by step logic of the original example. (Didn't God/Jesus say he would be with us for all time? That means He will be "in time" ) So instead of following the original logic, if you are a theist answer this simple quiz.

1. God exists and knows all the past, present, and future. This includes my restaurant choice tonight, beef or chicken. T or F
2. He could write it down and seal it in an envelope, and give it to me. T or F
3. I could open the envelope before ordering , read it and order the opposite of what He wrote. T or F

If you are a believer in God, His Omniscience, and your Free Will, you must answer all these questions with a True. If you do so, then you are admitting that either He is not all knowing, or you do not have free will. It's simple logic.
rr
Naysayer
Posts: 746
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9/28/2013 9:27:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/27/2013 8:22:23 AM, rroberts wrote:
Theists argue that God's Omniscience and my Free Will both exist. I maintain that one or the other must be eliminated.
The best they do is say the issue was settled centuries ago and provide several pages of unreadable theological answers. If pressed some say God is above human logic, He made the rules, He can change them. The basic logical reasoning follows, it is not new:

1. Assume God exists and knows all the past, present, and future. This includes my restaurant choice tonight, beef or chicken.
2. He could write it down and seal it in an envelope, and give it to me.
3. I could open the envelope before ordering , read it and order the opposite of what He wrote.

This means either He did not know the future, and that He made a mistake, or I am uncontrollably compelled to order his choice eliminating my Free Will. There is no other answer.

There's a documented case of just that. Christ told Peter he would deny him three times. Peter knew this and yet went ahead and denied him three times. Clearly pre-knowledge did not prohibit the event from taking place.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/28/2013 10:47:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/27/2013 8:22:23 AM, rroberts wrote:
Theists argue that God's Omniscience and my Free Will both exist. I maintain that one or the other must be eliminated.
The best they do is say the issue was settled centuries ago and provide several pages of unreadable theological answers. If pressed some say God is above human logic, He made the rules, He can change them. The basic logical reasoning follows, it is not new:

1. Assume God exists and knows all the past, present, and future. This includes my restaurant choice tonight, beef or chicken.
2. He could write it down and seal it in an envelope, and give it to me.
3. I could open the envelope before ordering , read it and order the opposite of what He wrote.

This means either He did not know the future, and that He made a mistake, or I am uncontrollably compelled to order his choice eliminating my Free Will. There is no other answer.

Oh God exists alright, but like so many you have the wrong idea of what is called God's omniscience.

God could know all if he wished but there are many things he does not wish to know.

For instance he only wishes to know the thoughts of those who actually invite him to, such as myself.

He respects our privacy.

Unlike Satan who will interfere in the lives of any he wishes, unless they are protected by God, and believe me he really does influence the thinking of the vast majority of the human race who either don't believe he exists, or don't think he can get in. Both of which beliefs leave him with a free path to an unlocked door.

It is the same with God's power.

He has the power to do anything he wants, but does he want to do anything.

Only he can limit himself, and he does. He is not a megalomaniac, and knows he has nothing he needs to prove to anyone that there is not already more than sufficient evidence to prove anyway.

He has through his son, arranged a world wide preaching work to help other humans put themselves in line for salvation and all the promises God is going to fulfil. He then leaves it to us either to listen or not, as we choose.

He also respects the free will he gave us.
rroberts
Posts: 27
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9/28/2013 5:27:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Some have said"..

""God could know all if he wished but there are many things he does not wish to know" For instance he only wishes to know the thoughts of those who actually invite him to""
This sounds like something you made up. If He is omniscient by definition He has to know everything that will happen.

""God cannot write down your choice now because you have (made) no choice. You are waiting to form one when you see what He wrote""
In other words God doesn"t know what will happen until it happens? There goes His omniscience.

"..Christ told Peter he would deny him three times. Peter knew this and yet went ahead and denied him three times. Clearly pre-knowledge did not prohibit the event from taking place""

If Peter had chosen to do so, because he had free will, he could easily have stopped his denials after only two, making Jesus prediction false. In fact he could have made no denials. His cowardice overwhelmed him and he denied thrice to protect himself.
rr
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,077
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9/28/2013 5:37:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/27/2013 2:01:46 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 9/27/2013 11:02:53 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 9/27/2013 8:22:23 AM, rroberts wrote:
Theists argue that God's Omniscience and my Free Will both exist. I maintain that one or the other must be eliminated.
The best they do is say the issue was settled centuries ago and provide several pages of unreadable theological answers. If pressed some say God is above human logic, He made the rules, He can change them. The basic logical reasoning follows, it is not new:

1. Assume God exists and knows all the past, present, and future. This includes my restaurant choice tonight, beef or chicken.
2. He could write it down and seal it in an envelope, and give it to me.
3. I could open the envelope before ordering , read it and order the opposite of what He wrote.

This means either He did not know the future, and that He made a mistake, or I am uncontrollably compelled to order his choice eliminating my Free Will. There is no other answer.

Nope. God doesn't exist in time as your argument seems to presuppose. It's not like God just knows the future. He exists *outside* of time. So in a way, the future is already present to God. God already exists in the future.

Try to think of it in terms of B-series time, and God just existing outside of that.

The argument doesn't work since it is aimed at a deity which is bound to time.

Well he would know that you were going to change your mind and order something else, right? Otherwise he's not omniscient if he didn't know that.

"Nope. God doesn't exist in time as your argument seems to presuppose."

If he doesn't exist in time, then he couldn't have created the universe. Even William Lane Craig agrees. If God is timeless, then he is changeless. If he is changeless, then he cannot make any change from "Not creating the universe" to "creating the universe". The only way out of this problem is if God is timeless prior to creation, then places himself in time at the moment of creation. This means, that God is not timeless right now, his timelessness only holds prior to creation.

Hm. I agree it's difficult to imagine something creating something without changing itself, but I don't see why it's impossible. It isn't God that changes with the creation of the world, but rather the world coming into being, and in a way changing from being non existent to existent. It seems to rest on the premise that if someone moves something else, then it itself is in turn moved, which I'd reject. That's the whole idea of an "unmoved mover", that which actualizes other potencies without itself being actualized in any way (else it wouldn't be the unmoved mover).

At 9/27/2013 2:55:22 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 9/27/2013 11:02:53 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 9/27/2013 8:22:23 AM, rroberts wrote:
Theists argue that God's Omniscience and my Free Will both exist. I maintain that one or the other must be eliminated.
The best they do is say the issue was settled centuries ago and provide several pages of unreadable theological answers. If pressed some say God is above human logic, He made the rules, He can change them. The basic logical reasoning follows, it is not new:

1. Assume God exists and knows all the past, present, and future. This includes my restaurant choice tonight, beef or chicken.
2. He could write it down and seal it in an envelope, and give it to me.
3. I could open the envelope before ordering , read it and order the opposite of what He wrote.

This means either He did not know the future, and that He made a mistake, or I am uncontrollably compelled to order his choice eliminating my Free Will. There is no other answer.

Nope. God doesn't exist in time as your argument seems to presuppose. It's not like God just knows the future. He exists *outside* of time. So in a way, the future is already present to God. God already exists in the future.

Try to think of it in terms of B-series time, and God just existing outside of that.

The argument doesn't work since it is aimed at a deity which is bound to time.

Well he would know that you were going to change your mind and order something else, right? Otherwise he's not omniscient if he didn't know that.

Also, "exists" is a word entailing a present tense ("existed", and "will exist" being past and future). Therefore, if you say "God exists" you are saying God exists in the present. The term "God exists outside of time" is logically contradictory, because "exists" is present tense, meaning that God has to exist in the present for that sentence to make any sense.

Well I agree that the term "exists" might be misleading, but when I said God "exists" outside of time, I don't necessarily mean he exists in like a present moment. Since our language and minds are bound to time, it's very difficult to understand something existing outside of time. I suppose there isn't exactly a perfect term in our language to explain something which is outside of time.

Also, how does "present" mean there is a "future" or "past"? What if God exists outside of time in an eternal "present"?

Before I joined this website, I read alot of your debates and forum posts, and I have to say, you're one of the most intelligent atheists I've had the pleasure to read. :)
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
zmikecuber
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9/28/2013 5:42:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/27/2013 2:55:22 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 9/27/2013 11:02:53 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 9/27/2013 8:22:23 AM, rroberts wrote:
Theists argue that God's Omniscience and my Free Will both exist. I maintain that one or the other must be eliminated.
The best they do is say the issue was settled centuries ago and provide several pages of unreadable theological answers. If pressed some say God is above human logic, He made the rules, He can change them. The basic logical reasoning follows, it is not new:

1. Assume God exists and knows all the past, present, and future. This includes my restaurant choice tonight, beef or chicken.
2. He could write it down and seal it in an envelope, and give it to me.
3. I could open the envelope before ordering , read it and order the opposite of what He wrote.

This means either He did not know the future, and that He made a mistake, or I am uncontrollably compelled to order his choice eliminating my Free Will. There is no other answer.

Nope. God doesn't exist in time as your argument seems to presuppose. It's not like God just knows the future. He exists *outside* of time. So in a way, the future is already present to God. God already exists in the future.

Try to think of it in terms of B-series time, and God just existing outside of that.

The argument doesn't work since it is aimed at a deity which is bound to time.

Well he would know that you were going to change your mind and order something else, right? Otherwise he's not omniscient if he didn't know that.

Also, "exists" is a word entailing a present tense ("existed", and "will exist" being past and future). Therefore, if you say "God exists" you are saying God exists in the present. The term "God exists outside of time" is logically contradictory, because "exists" is present tense, meaning that God has to exist in the present for that sentence to make any sense.

http://dhspriory.org...

This also might be of interest. Particularly... "For all motion or change is the "act of that which exists potentially, as such." But in the action which is creation, nothing potential pre-exists to receive the action, as we have just shown. Therefore, creation is not a motion or a change."

That being said, I think creation is probably one of the most complicated and almost counter intuitive metaphysical concepts in Christianity.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
JayLewis
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9/28/2013 5:47:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
This is a topic that has vexed many people, Christians and non-Christians alike. Even though it is a mystery, and ultimately "the secret things are of the Lord" (Deut 29:9), there are still insights to be gleaned from the relationship of human will and God's sovereignty.
First of all, we are not robots, who are unwillingly led by an invisible hand. God has given us a will to choose, however the question arises: "do we have free will?".
Ultimately, what seems like free will is really within the broader realm of God's sovereignty. Ultimate God guides our course of life, because left to ourselves our "choices" are finite and bent to sin.
Thoughts?
zmikecuber
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9/28/2013 6:16:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 9:15:02 AM, rroberts wrote:
OK, so as usual we have the "outside of time" argument which completely ignores the step by step logic of the original example. (Didn't God/Jesus say he would be with us for all time? That means He will be "in time" ) So instead of following the original logic, if you are a theist answer this simple quiz.

1. God exists and knows all the past, present, and future. This includes my restaurant choice tonight, beef or chicken. T or F
2. He could write it down and seal it in an envelope, and give it to me. T or F
3. I could open the envelope before ordering , read it and order the opposite of what He wrote. T or F

If you are a believer in God, His Omniscience, and your Free Will, you must answer all these questions with a True. If you do so, then you are admitting that either He is not all knowing, or you do not have free will. It's simple logic.

I'll be honest with you. I don't know how to answer this question. It seems very paradoxal, and is extremely confusing. However, I just emailed Thomistic Professor Edward Feser with your argument, because now my curiosity has been perked. ;) I'll let you know if he replies.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
MadCornishBiker
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9/29/2013 4:21:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/27/2013 8:22:23 AM, rroberts wrote:
Theists argue that God's Omniscience and my Free Will both exist. I maintain that one or the other must be eliminated.
The best they do is say the issue was settled centuries ago and provide several pages of unreadable theological answers. If pressed some say God is above human logic, He made the rules, He can change them. The basic logical reasoning follows, it is not new:

1. Assume God exists and knows all the past, present, and future. This includes my restaurant choice tonight, beef or chicken.

God does not know the future of individuals, unless he has reason to take a particular interest, such as when he predicted the name of the King who would capture Babylon 100 years or so before Cyrus was even born. Of course that could be, and possible is, that he is more than capable of manoeuvring people and events should he choose to do so.

Generally he assess humanity as a whole, being well aware of what we call "mob mentality", as well as the psychology of his enemy Satan, who is also capable of manoeuvring people and events, and has no compunction about interfering in the lives of individuals in order to achieve what he wants when he wants. and whilst he already knew that in the final test when it comes the majority will fail, he does not know which individuals will.

2. He could write it down and seal it in an envelope, and give it to me.

It is entirely possible that he could if he took sufficient interest in you, because he would know your tastes in food better than you do.

3. I could open the envelope before ordering , read it and order the opposite of what He wrote.

Yes you could. though you would probably find that the restaurant had run out of everything but what God wrote down.


This means either He did not know the future, and that He made a mistake, or I am uncontrollably compelled to order his choice eliminating my Free Will. There is no other answer.

Oh don't worry he could know you well enough to know what you would do and would arrange things around that..

Of course he would never do such a thing. He only interferes in the lives of those who ask him to, unlike his enemy, and then he only does so if they are willing to be used for his purposes for mankind as a whole, so you are quite safe from losing any bets.

God is not into "party tricks" though he would be more than capable of manoeuvring everything else around you to ensure that his predictions did not fail.

However if he were prepared to do that Adam would never have been allowed to go wrong in the first place, nor come to that would Satan, and we would now, if we lived at all, be living in a massively different and better world.

As it is he only manoeuvres that which it is essential to manoeuvre for the sake of mankind as a whole, and his purposes for us.

Don't forget God really is all powerful. He really could do anything he wanted to, provided of course that eh actually wanted to. He does, however, have certain limitations which he has set himself and they are a balance of Love Wisdom Justice Power and Mercy, in whatever order they are needed, but love always coming first.
MadCornishBiker
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9/29/2013 4:27:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 5:47:24 PM, JayLewis wrote:
This is a topic that has vexed many people, Christians and non-Christians alike. Even though it is a mystery, and ultimately "the secret things are of the Lord" (Deut 29:9), there are still insights to be gleaned from the relationship of human will and God's sovereignty.
First of all, we are not robots, who are unwillingly led by an invisible hand. God has given us a will to choose, however the question arises: "do we have free will?".
Ultimately, what seems like free will is really within the broader realm of God's sovereignty. Ultimate God guides our course of life, because left to ourselves our "choices" are finite and bent to sin.
Thoughts?

No he doesn't. If he did we would be living in a much different world, and Adam would not have been allowed to go wrong in the first place.

God does not want any to suffer, and Adam's capitulation to Satan made it inevitable that millions would suffer until the issue was sorted out.

Also the issue Satan raised, of man's willingness to serve God in the face of adversity, would not arise because God would be directing our lives, including the lives of the one who became Satan and those who chose to follow him, so that we had little or no choice in the matter.

Sorry. true free-will, with God trusting us to use it wisely and under his guidance, is the only feasible explanation for things going the way they have.

After the final test, only those willing to live that way, of their own free will, will be allowed to survive into the paradise that this earth will then become.
MadCornishBiker
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9/29/2013 4:32:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 5:42:46 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 9/27/2013 2:55:22 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 9/27/2013 11:02:53 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 9/27/2013 8:22:23 AM, rroberts wrote:
Theists argue that God's Omniscience and my Free Will both exist. I maintain that one or the other must be eliminated.
The best they do is say the issue was settled centuries ago and provide several pages of unreadable theological answers. If pressed some say God is above human logic, He made the rules, He can change them. The basic logical reasoning follows, it is not new:

1. Assume God exists and knows all the past, present, and future. This includes my restaurant choice tonight, beef or chicken.
2. He could write it down and seal it in an envelope, and give it to me.
3. I could open the envelope before ordering , read it and order the opposite of what He wrote.

This means either He did not know the future, and that He made a mistake, or I am uncontrollably compelled to order his choice eliminating my Free Will. There is no other answer.

Nope. God doesn't exist in time as your argument seems to presuppose. It's not like God just knows the future. He exists *outside* of time. So in a way, the future is already present to God. God already exists in the future.

Try to think of it in terms of B-series time, and God just existing outside of that.

The argument doesn't work since it is aimed at a deity which is bound to time.

Well he would know that you were going to change your mind and order something else, right? Otherwise he's not omniscient if he didn't know that.

Also, "exists" is a word entailing a present tense ("existed", and "will exist" being past and future). Therefore, if you say "God exists" you are saying God exists in the present. The term "God exists outside of time" is logically contradictory, because "exists" is present tense, meaning that God has to exist in the present for that sentence to make any sense.

http://dhspriory.org...

This also might be of interest. Particularly... "For all motion or change is the "act of that which exists potentially, as such." But in the action which is creation, nothing potential pre-exists to receive the action, as we have just shown. Therefore, creation is not a motion or a change."

That being said, I think creation is probably one of the most complicated and almost counter intuitive metaphysical concepts in Christianity.

Ah but something did exist. God. His energy. His power,

Everything that exists was either made from his energy, or from the things that his energy was turned into, hence everything begins with him and his energy, even time.

Very simple indeed really, nothing in the least counter-intuitive about it.

One of mankind's biggest failings is insisting on looking for the complicated answer when in reality it is usually the simple one that is the truth..
MadCornishBiker
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9/29/2013 4:49:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 5:37:57 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 9/27/2013 2:01:46 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 9/27/2013 11:02:53 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 9/27/2013 8:22:23 AM, rroberts wrote:
Theists argue that God's Omniscience and my Free Will both exist. I maintain that one or the other must be eliminated.
The best they do is say the issue was settled centuries ago and provide several pages of unreadable theological answers. If pressed some say God is above human logic, He made the rules, He can change them. The basic logical reasoning follows, it is not new:

1. Assume God exists and knows all the past, present, and future. This includes my restaurant choice tonight, beef or chicken.
2. He could write it down and seal it in an envelope, and give it to me.
3. I could open the envelope before ordering , read it and order the opposite of what He wrote.

This means either He did not know the future, and that He made a mistake, or I am uncontrollably compelled to order his choice eliminating my Free Will. There is no other answer.

Nope. God doesn't exist in time as your argument seems to presuppose. It's not like God just knows the future. He exists *outside* of time. So in a way, the future is already present to God. God already exists in the future.

Try to think of it in terms of B-series time, and God just existing outside of that.

The argument doesn't work since it is aimed at a deity which is bound to time.

Well he would know that you were going to change your mind and order something else, right? Otherwise he's not omniscient if he didn't know that.

"Nope. God doesn't exist in time as your argument seems to presuppose."

If he doesn't exist in time, then he couldn't have created the universe. Even William Lane Craig agrees. If God is timeless, then he is changeless. If he is changeless, then he cannot make any change from "Not creating the universe" to "creating the universe". The only way out of this problem is if God is timeless prior to creation, then places himself in time at the moment of creation. This means, that God is not timeless right now, his timelessness only holds prior to creation.

Hm. I agree it's difficult to imagine something creating something without changing itself, but I don't see why it's impossible. It isn't God that changes with the creation of the world, but rather the world coming into being, and in a way changing from being non existent to existent. It seems to rest on the premise that if someone moves something else, then it itself is in turn moved, which I'd reject. That's the whole idea of an "unmoved mover", that which actualizes other potencies without itself being actualized in any way (else it wouldn't be the unmoved mover).

At 9/27/2013 2:55:22 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 9/27/2013 11:02:53 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 9/27/2013 8:22:23 AM, rroberts wrote:
Theists argue that God's Omniscience and my Free Will both exist. I maintain that one or the other must be eliminated.
The best they do is say the issue was settled centuries ago and provide several pages of unreadable theological answers. If pressed some say God is above human logic, He made the rules, He can change them. The basic logical reasoning follows, it is not new:

1. Assume God exists and knows all the past, present, and future. This includes my restaurant choice tonight, beef or chicken.
2. He could write it down and seal it in an envelope, and give it to me.
3. I could open the envelope before ordering , read it and order the opposite of what He wrote.

This means either He did not know the future, and that He made a mistake, or I am uncontrollably compelled to order his choice eliminating my Free Will. There is no other answer.

Nope. God doesn't exist in time as your argument seems to presuppose. It's not like God just knows the future. He exists *outside* of time. So in a way, the future is already present to God. God already exists in the future.

Try to think of it in terms of B-series time, and God just existing outside of that.

The argument doesn't work since it is aimed at a deity which is bound to time.

Well he would know that you were going to change your mind and order something else, right? Otherwise he's not omniscient if he didn't know that.

Also, "exists" is a word entailing a present tense ("existed", and "will exist" being past and future). Therefore, if you say "God exists" you are saying God exists in the present. The term "God exists outside of time" is logically contradictory, because "exists" is present tense, meaning that God has to exist in the present for that sentence to make any sense.

Well I agree that the term "exists" might be misleading, but when I said God "exists" outside of time, I don't necessarily mean he exists in like a present moment. Since our language and minds are bound to time, it's very difficult to understand something existing outside of time. I suppose there isn't exactly a perfect term in our language to explain something which is outside of time.

Also, how does "present" mean there is a "future" or "past"? What if God exists outside of time in an eternal "present"?

Before I joined this website, I read alot of your debates and forum posts, and I have to say, you're one of the most intelligent atheists I've had the pleasure to read. :)

No, God does not exist out of time.

This is a case of looking for the complex answer when the truth is so simple.Whilst it is true that time has no real effect on him because he does not change, he is still affected by the time he created, and uses it to plan what is going to happen and when.

It is his ability to understand the behaviour of his creation as whole that gives him the power to predict what will happen with the majority so far ahead even if he does not know how each individual will react. His knowledge of "mob mentality" is perfect.

Whilst he doesn't normally interfere in the lives and minds of individuals, unlike Satan who does so all the time unless they are protected by God's spirit, which they have to request in sincerity and trust, history, and scripture, shows that he has done so in the past in order to achieve the result he wanted, even then he only does so to the minimum amount necessary.

A typical example is how he manoeuvred things to ensure that the King who captured Babylon would be called Cyrus. All he had to do was influence the minds of the parents to ensure thy chose that name.

The true power of his prophecies is not that he knows in advance how things will turn out, though in some cases he does, but the sheer fact that eh can out-manoeuvre Satan at every turn, and if needed, tweak things to make sure that things happen as he plans.
MadCornishBiker
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9/29/2013 4:58:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 5:37:57 PM, zmikecuber wrote:

Before I joined this website, I read alot of your debates and forum posts, and I have to say, you're one of the most intelligent atheists I've had the pleasure to read. :)

There are some, though I am not one, who would say that the terms "intelligent" and Atheist" do not belong in the same paragraph, let alone sentence.

However I do find it interesting , that Generally speaking it is the Atheists who are more inclined to think that anyone who believes in God is less intelligent or less rational than them.

Says a lot about why most Atheists actually are Atheists, because they think it makes them cleverer than most.

However it always brings a few scripture to my mind.

Romans 1:22 Although asserting they were wise, they became foolish

1 Corinthians 3: 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God; for it is written: "He catches the wise in their own cunning."

Job 5:13 [To the] One catching the wise in their own cunning,
So that the counsel of astute ones is carried headlong;
MadCornishBiker
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9/29/2013 5:07:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 5:27:41 PM, rroberts wrote:
Some have said"..

""God could know all if he wished but there are many things he does not wish to know" For instance he only wishes to know the thoughts of those who actually invite him to""
This sounds like something you made up. If He is omniscient by definition He has to know everything that will happen.

Why? surely he can choose what he knows? or do you assume that he has no capability for choice?

It is the same with his omnipotence. He has the power to do anything he wants, but who is to tell him what he wants to do?


""God cannot write down your choice now because you have (made) no choice. You are waiting to form one when you see what He wrote""

In other words God doesn't know what will happen until it happens? There goes His omniscience.

No. Again it simply means he chose not to know. He has proven many times that if he wants to he can know anything he chooses. After all, he knew that King Cyrus would capture Babylon 100 years before he was even born. Not only that he predicted how and when he would do it, and the Cyrus Cylinder proves the accuracy of that prediction.


"..Christ told Peter he would deny him three times. Peter knew this and yet went ahead and denied him three times. Clearly pre-knowledge did not prohibit the event from taking place""

God forces no-one to do what they don't want to do. The world would not be in this state if he did. He is currently seeking those who actually want to do things his way in the light of the evidence found in the bible.


If Peter had chosen to do so, because he had free will, he could easily have stopped his denials after only two, making Jesus prediction false. In fact he could have made no denials. His cowardice overwhelmed him and he denied thrice to protect himself.

I don't think it was cowardice, Peter was never short of courage. He even attempted to persuade Christ from the course that would lead to his death.

No, there was a great deal of confusion amongst the disciples during that time and no doubt that caused Peter to forget Christ's prediction, as Christ knew it would. He knew his disciples well enough to know exactly how they would react in such situations.

Confusion can make apparent cowards of us all.