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The Salvation Paradox

AndersonHunter
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9/28/2013 10:41:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
This post is meant for all Christians who believe in salvation and forgiveness by means of confessing your sins and accepting Jesus as your savior. Consider the following hypothetical situation...

Man A lives his life as a decent, caring being who has compassion in his heart and helps his fellow man whenever he is able. He never harms anyone, never commits a crime and does his very best to make make morally sound decisions. However, he doesn't believe that a God exists and rejects the truth claims of the Bible.

Man B spends a good portion of his life molesting, torturing and murdering innocent children. His crimes are of the most vile and unthinkable that could be committed against our species. He has done nothing of value and has only sought to bring pain sorrow to this world. Yet, while in prison, being an older man now and pondering his life, he becomes truly remorseful and begs for forgiveness. He accepts Jesus as his savior and becomes a devout student of the Bible.

Which of these men, in your opinion, will enjoy everlasting paradise and which will suffer damnation for eternity? Moreover, please explain why each is so and why it is morally consistent with a perfectly righteous creator.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/28/2013 11:07:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 10:41:58 AM, AndersonHunter wrote:
This post is meant for all Christians who believe in salvation and forgiveness by means of confessing your sins and accepting Jesus as your savior. Consider the following hypothetical situation...

Man A lives his life as a decent, caring being who has compassion in his heart and helps his fellow man whenever he is able. He never harms anyone, never commits a crime and does his very best to make make morally sound decisions. However, he doesn't believe that a God exists and rejects the truth claims of the Bible.

Man B spends a good portion of his life molesting, torturing and murdering innocent children. His crimes are of the most vile and unthinkable that could be committed against our species. He has done nothing of value and has only sought to bring pain sorrow to this world. Yet, while in prison, being an older man now and pondering his life, he becomes truly remorseful and begs for forgiveness. He accepts Jesus as his savior and becomes a devout student of the Bible.

Which of these men, in your opinion, will enjoy everlasting paradise and which will suffer damnation for eternity? Moreover, please explain why each is so and why it is morally consistent with a perfectly righteous creator.

In reality there is no Paradox, though I can see why you think there may be.

Your first example is in fact an impossibility, because anyone who has no belief in God is harming all those who follow his example in the worst way possible. Therefore for all his sincere efforts he will not survive because of the people he may well have led to their deaths also.

As to your second example, whether or not he gains salvation all depends on if he looks to the correct source to find it.

There are millions out there who have confessed their since and turned their backs on them, but do not acknowledge the correct God as the source of their possible salvation. For instance there are millions out there who call themselves Christian but do not know, and are not taught, the truth about God, and therefore they worship a false, Trinitarian, God. That will not save them however good they may appear to human eyes.

As Jesus made very clear at John 17:3, quoted in my signature, it is vital that we get to know, as he says "you the only true God, and the one you sent forth, Jesus Christ".

Only if you get to know God and Christ can you possibly learn what it takes to please them and to follow what Jesus said were the two most important commands in the law and in fact embodied the entire law and prophets in them.

At Matthew 22:36-40 Jesus quoted Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:17 when he said:

36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 He said to him: ""You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind." 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this, "You must love your neighbor as yourself." 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.

Only by complying with those instructions can one hope to achieve salvation, and to do that one also need to comply with James 1:5-8

5 So, if any one of YOU is lacking in wisdom, let him keep on asking God, for he gives generously to all and without reproaching; and it will be given him. 6 But let him keep on asking in faith, not doubting at all, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about. 7 In fact, let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from Jehovah; 8 he is an indecisive man, unsteady in all his ways.

But an important principle always to remember is:

Luke 15:4 "What man of YOU with a hundred sheep, on losing one of them, will not leave the ninety-nine behind in the wilderness and go for the lost one until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it he puts it upon his shoulders and rejoices. 6 And when he gets home he calls his friends and his neighbors together, saying to them, "Rejoice with me, because I have found my sheep that was lost." 7 I tell YOU that thus there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner that repents than over ninety-nine righteous ones who have no need of repentance.

Not that there isn't joy over the righteous an, but the prodigal is greeted with a great deal of relief.
Naysayer
Posts: 746
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9/28/2013 11:10:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 10:41:58 AM, AndersonHunter wrote:
This post is meant for all Christians who believe in salvation and forgiveness by means of confessing your sins and accepting Jesus as your savior. Consider the following hypothetical situation...

Man A lives his life as a decent, caring being who has compassion in his heart and helps his fellow man whenever he is able. He never harms anyone, never commits a crime and does his very best to make make morally sound decisions. However, he doesn't believe that a God exists and rejects the truth claims of the Bible.

Man B spends a good portion of his life molesting, torturing and murdering innocent children. His crimes are of the most vile and unthinkable that could be committed against our species. He has done nothing of value and has only sought to bring pain sorrow to this world. Yet, while in prison, being an older man now and pondering his life, he becomes truly remorseful and begs for forgiveness. He accepts Jesus as his savior and becomes a devout student of the Bible.

Which of these men, in your opinion, will enjoy everlasting paradise and which will suffer damnation for eternity? Moreover, please explain why each is so and why it is morally consistent with a perfectly righteous creator.

First of all, your position itself is inconsistent with the Bible. Leading a decent life is not good enough. Because the Bible says All have sinned and if you're guilty of one point of the law, you're guilty of all. (Romans 5:12, James 2:10)

Your goodness is not worth anything. Job stated:

Job 9:
30 If I wash myself with snow water, and make my hands never so clean;
31 Yet shalt thou plunge me in the ditch, and mine own clothes shall abhor me.

That's what we need to come to terms with, our unrighteousness. It doesn't matter how little or how much, we owe God an impossible debt.

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God

You are unable to please God.

The law was meant to teach us that. That's why Christ found the Pharisees so morally repugnant. They thought they were justified to God. But it was the repentant Publican, as wicked as he was, that found himself justified by God. (Luke 18:10-14)

It's through faith in God that we please him.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

You have to believe him. You have to acknowledge him Lord of all. And believe he'll reward your faith. Or you can bury that talent he gives you and deal with the consequences on his return.

Matthew 25:
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

How exactly do you accuse the Creator of everything, who keeps his word from beginning to end and more, He justly lets us know what that word is, of not being righteous? If you choose to disobey and to refuse to accept his Son or believe in him, why should He acknowledge you?

He not only provided you with the knowledge of his law as spoken in the first couple chapters of Romans, when you broke that law, He provided a payment through Jesus Christ to cover your sins. All you have to do is believe in him.

Acts 16:31 Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved
AndersonHunter
Posts: 47
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9/28/2013 11:22:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 11:07:27 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/28/2013 10:41:58 AM, AndersonHunter wrote:

As to your second example, whether or not he gains salvation all depends on if he looks to the correct source to find it.

There are millions out there who have confessed their since and turned their backs on them, but do not acknowledge the correct God as the source of their possible salvation. For instance there are millions out there who call themselves Christian but do not know, and are not taught, the truth about God, and therefore they worship a false, Trinitarian, God. That will not save them however good they may appear to human eyes.

OK, let's put it this way since your are parsing between denominations. Let's say Man B in the example accepts and seeks forgiveness from YOUR version of Jesus and becomes a devout follower of YOUR version of Christianity. Then, does is he granted entry into Heaven despite the unspeakable wickedness he has visited upon the most innocent of our species. Please try to answer the question directly this time.
AndersonHunter
Posts: 47
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9/28/2013 11:30:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 11:10:07 AM, Naysayer wrote:

First of all, your position itself is inconsistent with the Bible. Leading a decent life is not good enough. Because the Bible says All have sinned and if you're guilty of one point of the law, you're guilty of all. (Romans 5:12, James 2:10)

I never made the claim that it was or wasn't consistent with Biblical teaching. I simply proposed a situation and asked a question. Please remain on topic as to that question. Does Man B garner entry into Heaven over Man A, even though he had lived and what is the moral justification? I have a feeling those responding to this question will put aside their own moral compass and depend purely on scripture to guide their responses. However, I would like to know your feelings, using your own words, as to how Man b deserves to enjoy paradise given his evil deeds over Man A. I realizxe this may prove to be impossible for some because their thinking is so instructed by scriptural mandate that they aren't free to express their own views.
AndersonHunter
Posts: 47
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9/28/2013 11:36:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I apologize for any grammatical errors today. I am stuck on my phone, which I hate typing on and trying to do other things. Bear with me! :)
bulproof
Posts: 25,210
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9/28/2013 11:51:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
You see, ALL have sinned.
Even the blastocyst has sinned, it and all other aborted foetuses will be punished for eternity for their sins.
This god is called LOVE.
99.9billion people have already suffered the consequences of their sin.
35 million spontaneous abortions per year and every single one of those sinners will suffer for eternity thanks to the all encompassing love of god.
Hallelujah, sing it out brothers and sisters Hallelujah!!!!
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
AndersonHunter
Posts: 47
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9/28/2013 12:03:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 11:51:35 AM, bulproof wrote:
You see, ALL have sinned.
Even the blastocyst has sinned, it and all other aborted foetuses will be punished for eternity for their sins.
This god is called LOVE.
99.9billion people have already suffered the consequences of their sin.
35 million spontaneous abortions per year and every single one of those sinners will suffer for eternity thanks to the all encompassing love of god.
Hallelujah, sing it out brothers and sisters Hallelujah!!!!

So, you're saying that the man that raped, tortured and murdered children deserves the fruits of eternal paradise, regardless of how much evil he visited upon the innocent? Just asking since you didn't directly talk about the question at hand.
bulproof
Posts: 25,210
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9/28/2013 12:32:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 12:03:34 PM, AndersonHunter wrote:
At 9/28/2013 11:51:35 AM, bulproof wrote:
You see, ALL have sinned.
Even the blastocyst has sinned, it and all other aborted foetuses will be punished for eternity for their sins.
This god is called LOVE.
99.9billion people have already suffered the consequences of their sin.
35 million spontaneous abortions per year and every single one of those sinners will suffer for eternity thanks to the all encompassing love of god.
Hallelujah, sing it out brothers and sisters Hallelujah!!!!

So, you're saying that the man that raped, tortured and murdered children deserves the fruits of eternal paradise, regardless of how much evil he visited upon the innocent? Just asking since you didn't directly talk about the question at hand.

Yes I was being somewhat facetious and sarcastic.
What I actually said was that if anyone who wants to enter doesn't repent and claim jesus as their saviour then they are hellbound.
35million spontaneous abortions occur every year on this planet and not one of those "souls" (proclaimed by godbotherers) has repented or claimed jesus as their saviour.
Each and everyone of those souls that this god created with the full knowledge that they would never have a chance to repent for sins they never committed, this god sends to everlasting torture.
I mean how could anybody not love a god like that?
FVCKING DOUCHE BAG.
My abject apologies to douche douche bags.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
AndersonHunter
Posts: 47
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9/28/2013 12:52:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 12:32:33 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/28/2013 12:03:34 PM, AndersonHunter wrote:
At 9/28/2013 11:51:35 AM, bulproof wrote:
You see, ALL have sinned.
Even the blastocyst has sinned, it and all other aborted foetuses will be punished for eternity for their sins.
This god is called LOVE.
99.9billion people have already suffered the consequences of their sin.
35 million spontaneous abortions per year and every single one of those sinners will suffer for eternity thanks to the all encompassing love of god.
Hallelujah, sing it out brothers and sisters Hallelujah!!!!

So, you're saying that the man that raped, tortured and murdered children deserves the fruits of eternal paradise, regardless of how much evil he visited upon the innocent? Just asking since you didn't directly talk about the question at hand.

Yes I was being somewhat facetious and sarcastic.
What I actually said was that if anyone who wants to enter doesn't repent and claim jesus as their saviour then they are hellbound.
35million spontaneous abortions occur every year on this planet and not one of those "souls" (proclaimed by godbotherers) has repented or claimed jesus as their saviour.
Each and everyone of those souls that this god created with the full knowledge that they would never have a chance to repent for sins they never committed, this god sends to everlasting torture.
I mean how could anybody not love a god like that?
FVCKING DOUCHE BAG.
My abject apologies to douche douche bags.

My entire problem with the idea of sin and salvation is the convoluted and child like way it is presented and offered as truth...

God creates a species. God gives that species the capacity to sin. The species sins. God condemns that species based on them exercising the capacity for sin that he gave them. The species becomes so sinful that God must wipe them off the planet and start anew. However, the species continues to sin to the point that God must again intervene. Only this time, he will send himself to Earth. He will not appear as God though. He will become human in order to prove that he is not human. Then, when many still don't believe it, he will sacrifice himself to himself so that the sinful capacity he created us with can be forgiven by he who gave it to us. Then he will inspire an amended version of his original "perfect" instructions that will be written decades after his sacrifice. He will leave no verifiable proof that he exists or that his claims are true except for a book that states the claims are true.

bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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9/28/2013 1:22:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 10:41:58 AM, AndersonHunter wrote:
This post is meant for all Christians who believe in salvation and forgiveness by means of confessing your sins and accepting Jesus as your savior. Consider the following hypothetical situation...

Man A lives his life as a decent, caring being who has compassion in his heart and helps his fellow man whenever he is able. He never harms anyone, never commits a crime and does his very best to make make morally sound decisions. However, he doesn't believe that a God exists and rejects the truth claims of the Bible.

Man B spends a good portion of his life molesting, torturing and murdering innocent children. His crimes are of the most vile and unthinkable that could be committed against our species. He has done nothing of value and has only sought to bring pain sorrow to this world. Yet, while in prison, being an older man now and pondering his life, he becomes truly remorseful and begs for forgiveness. He accepts Jesus as his savior and becomes a devout student of the Bible.

Which of these men, in your opinion, will enjoy everlasting paradise and which will suffer damnation for eternity? Moreover, please explain why each is so and why it is morally consistent with a perfectly righteous creator.

Atheists or theists have no idea that God planned and created the salvation for ALL His people. They don't realize that our bodies and this world are only illusions formed by processed energy, which is our real existence.

And by the way, there's no such thing as hell.
AndersonHunter
Posts: 47
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9/28/2013 1:33:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 1:22:30 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2013 10:41:58 AM, AndersonHunter wrote:
This post is meant for all Christians who believe in salvation and forgiveness by means of confessing your sins and accepting Jesus as your savior. Consider the following hypothetical situation...

Man A lives his life as a decent, caring being who has compassion in his heart and helps his fellow man whenever he is able. He never harms anyone, never commits a crime and does his very best to make make morally sound decisions. However, he doesn't believe that a God exists and rejects the truth claims of the Bible.

Man B spends a good portion of his life molesting, torturing and murdering innocent children. His crimes are of the most vile and unthinkable that could be committed against our species. He has done nothing of value and has only sought to bring pain sorrow to this world. Yet, while in prison, being an older man now and pondering his life, he becomes truly remorseful and begs for forgiveness. He accepts Jesus as his savior and becomes a devout student of the Bible.

Which of these men, in your opinion, will enjoy everlasting paradise and which will suffer damnation for eternity? Moreover, please explain why each is so and why it is morally consistent with a perfectly righteous creator.

Atheists or theists have no idea that God planned and created the salvation for ALL His people. They don't realize that our bodies and this world are only illusions formed by processed energy, which is our real existence.

And by the way, there's no such thing as hell.

So, God's plan was to create the "illusion" of reality. So the Bible is lying when it says he formed man from dust and breathed life into him? I agree their is no Hell.....nor Heaven, nor God because the entire concept is purely derived from the imaginations of man. Then, once you start parsing it into different, sects, ideologies and so forth, it just becomes more and more nonsensical.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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9/28/2013 1:56:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 10:41:58 AM, AndersonHunter wrote:
This post is meant for all Christians who believe in salvation and forgiveness by means of confessing your sins and accepting Jesus as your savior. Consider the following hypothetical situation...

Man A lives his life as a decent, caring being who has compassion in his heart and helps his fellow man whenever he is able. He never harms anyone, never commits a crime and does his very best to make make morally sound decisions. However, he doesn't believe that a God exists and rejects the truth claims of the Bible.

Man B spends a good portion of his life molesting, torturing and murdering innocent children. His crimes are of the most vile and unthinkable that could be committed against our species. He has done nothing of value and has only sought to bring pain sorrow to this world. Yet, while in prison, being an older man now and pondering his life, he becomes truly remorseful and begs for forgiveness. He accepts Jesus as his savior and becomes a devout student of the Bible.

Which of these men, in your opinion, will enjoy everlasting paradise and which will suffer damnation for eternity? Moreover, please explain why each is so and why it is morally consistent with a perfectly righteous creator.

Which of these men, in your opinion, will enjoy everlasting paradise and which will suffer damnation for eternity? Man B will enjoy everlasting paradise, because he's a Christian! Man A will suffer damnation, because he's not a Christian!

Moreover, please explain why each is so and why it is morally consistent with a perfectly righteous creator. Because, God's a Christian!
AndersonHunter
Posts: 47
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9/28/2013 2:00:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 1:56:54 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 9/28/2013 10:41:58 AM, AndersonHunter wrote:
This post is meant for all Christians who believe in salvation and forgiveness by means of confessing your sins and accepting Jesus as your savior. Consider the following hypothetical situation...

Man A lives his life as a decent, caring being who has compassion in his heart and helps his fellow man whenever he is able. He never harms anyone, never commits a crime and does his very best to make make morally sound decisions. However, he doesn't believe that a God exists and rejects the truth claims of the Bible.

Man B spends a good portion of his life molesting, torturing and murdering innocent children. His crimes are of the most vile and unthinkable that could be committed against our species. He has done nothing of value and has only sought to bring pain sorrow to this world. Yet, while in prison, being an older man now and pondering his life, he becomes truly remorseful and begs for forgiveness. He accepts Jesus as his savior and becomes a devout student of the Bible.

Which of these men, in your opinion, will enjoy everlasting paradise and which will suffer damnation for eternity? Moreover, please explain why each is so and why it is morally consistent with a perfectly righteous creator.

Which of these men, in your opinion, will enjoy everlasting paradise and which will suffer damnation for eternity? Man B will enjoy everlasting paradise, because he's a Christian! Man A will suffer damnation, because he's not a Christian!

Moreover, please explain why each is so and why it is morally consistent with a perfectly righteous creator. Because, God's a Christian!

Really? God's a Christian? I've encountered some embarrassingly futile responses over the years, but this may take the proverbial cake.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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9/28/2013 2:12:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 2:00:58 PM, AndersonHunter wrote:
At 9/28/2013 1:56:54 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 9/28/2013 10:41:58 AM, AndersonHunter wrote:
This post is meant for all Christians who believe in salvation and forgiveness by means of confessing your sins and accepting Jesus as your savior. Consider the following hypothetical situation...

Man A lives his life as a decent, caring being who has compassion in his heart and helps his fellow man whenever he is able. He never harms anyone, never commits a crime and does his very best to make make morally sound decisions. However, he doesn't believe that a God exists and rejects the truth claims of the Bible.

Man B spends a good portion of his life molesting, torturing and murdering innocent children. His crimes are of the most vile and unthinkable that could be committed against our species. He has done nothing of value and has only sought to bring pain sorrow to this world. Yet, while in prison, being an older man now and pondering his life, he becomes truly remorseful and begs for forgiveness. He accepts Jesus as his savior and becomes a devout student of the Bible.

Which of these men, in your opinion, will enjoy everlasting paradise and which will suffer damnation for eternity? Moreover, please explain why each is so and why it is morally consistent with a perfectly righteous creator.

Which of these men, in your opinion, will enjoy everlasting paradise and which will suffer damnation for eternity? Man B will enjoy everlasting paradise, because he's a Christian! Man A will suffer damnation, because he's not a Christian!

Moreover, please explain why each is so and why it is morally consistent with a perfectly righteous creator. Because, God's a Christian!

Really? God's a Christian? I've encountered some embarrassingly futile responses over the years, but this may take the proverbial cake.

Sorry, I was just demonstrating the response you're going to get from most Christians, once you remove all the word fillers.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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9/28/2013 2:25:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 10:41:58 AM, AndersonHunter wrote:
This post is meant for all Christians who believe in salvation and forgiveness by means of confessing your sins and accepting Jesus as your savior. Consider the following hypothetical situation...

Man A lives his life as a decent, caring being who has compassion in his heart and helps his fellow man whenever he is able. He never harms anyone, never commits a crime and does his very best to make make morally sound decisions. However, he doesn't believe that a God exists and rejects the truth claims of the Bible.

Man B spends a good portion of his life molesting, torturing and murdering innocent children. His crimes are of the most vile and unthinkable that could be committed against our species. He has done nothing of value and has only sought to bring pain sorrow to this world. Yet, while in prison, being an older man now and pondering his life, he becomes truly remorseful and begs for forgiveness. He accepts Jesus as his savior and becomes a devout student of the Bible.

Which of these men, in your opinion, will enjoy everlasting paradise

Both, eventually.

and which will suffer damnation for eternity?

Neither.

Moreover, please explain why each is so and why it is morally consistent with a perfectly righteous creator.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/28/2013 2:27:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 12:03:34 PM, AndersonHunter wrote:
At 9/28/2013 11:51:35 AM, bulproof wrote:
You see, ALL have sinned.
Even the blastocyst has sinned, it and all other aborted foetuses will be punished for eternity for their sins.
This god is called LOVE.
99.9billion people have already suffered the consequences of their sin.
35 million spontaneous abortions per year and every single one of those sinners will suffer for eternity thanks to the all encompassing love of god.
Hallelujah, sing it out brothers and sisters Hallelujah!!!!

So, you're saying that the man that raped, tortured and murdered children deserves the fruits of eternal paradise, regardless of how much evil he visited upon the innocent? Just asking since you didn't directly talk about the question at hand.


If he truly repents then what he did in the past is no longer relevant.

It is fairly certain that when he was doing these things he didn't truly believe he was doing anything wrong. No doubt he found a way of rationalising the deeds away. "She was asking for it dressing like that" or Well they shouldn't have left it lying around" or, well he shouldn't have done what he did or I wouldn't have had to kill him.

Homosexuals rationalise their wrong doing by saying "I was born like that".

Thieves rationalise away their theft by saying things like "Well why should they have it when I can't afford it".

Look at the number of people who smoke, fooling themselves into thinking it doesn't no-one any harm.

Or the illegal drug abusers.

I could go on.

In God's eyes sin is sin. Stealing a pen from work is as wrong as stealing a million pounds.

Stealing the loaf of bread that keeps a man alive is the same as taking his life in the first place.

If one has finally had the courage to admit that what they were doing really was wrong, should they not get a second chance?

Have you never done anything wrong and been glad of a second chance?
AndersonHunter
Posts: 47
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9/28/2013 2:27:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 2:12:16 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 9/28/2013 2:00:58 PM, AndersonHunter wrote:
At 9/28/2013 1:56:54 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 9/28/2013 10:41:58 AM, AndersonHunter wrote:
This post is meant for all Christians who believe in salvation and forgiveness by means of confessing your sins and accepting Jesus as your savior. Consider the following hypothetical situation...

Man A lives his life as a decent, caring being who has compassion in his heart and helps his fellow man whenever he is able. He never harms anyone, never commits a crime and does his very best to make make morally sound decisions. However, he doesn't believe that a God exists and rejects the truth claims of the Bible.

Man B spends a good portion of his life molesting, torturing and murdering innocent children. His crimes are of the most vile and unthinkable that could be committed against our species. He has done nothing of value and has only sought to bring pain sorrow to this world. Yet, while in prison, being an older man now and pondering his life, he becomes truly remorseful and begs for forgiveness. He accepts Jesus as his savior and becomes a devout student of the Bible.

Which of these men, in your opinion, will enjoy everlasting paradise and which will suffer damnation for eternity? Moreover, please explain why each is so and why it is morally consistent with a perfectly righteous creator.

Which of these men, in your opinion, will enjoy everlasting paradise and which will suffer damnation for eternity? Man B will enjoy everlasting paradise, because he's a Christian! Man A will suffer damnation, because he's not a Christian!

Moreover, please explain why each is so and why it is morally consistent with a perfectly righteous creator. Because, God's a Christian!

Really? God's a Christian? I've encountered some embarrassingly futile responses over the years, but this may take the proverbial cake.

Sorry, I was just demonstrating the response you're going to get from most Christians, once you remove all the word fillers.

Oh, I see. That flew right over my head. I thought you were being serious. :)
Naysayer
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9/28/2013 2:29:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 11:30:37 AM, AndersonHunter wrote:
At 9/28/2013 11:10:07 AM, Naysayer wrote:

First of all, your position itself is inconsistent with the Bible. Leading a decent life is not good enough. Because the Bible says All have sinned and if you're guilty of one point of the law, you're guilty of all. (Romans 5:12, James 2:10)

I never made the claim that it was or wasn't consistent with Biblical teaching. I simply proposed a situation and asked a question. Please remain on topic as to that question. Does Man B garner entry into Heaven over Man A, even though he had lived and what is the moral justification? I have a feeling those responding to this question will put aside their own moral compass and depend purely on scripture to guide their responses. However, I would like to know your feelings, using your own words, as to how Man b deserves to enjoy paradise given his evil deeds over Man A. I realizxe this may prove to be impossible for some because their thinking is so instructed by scriptural mandate that they aren't free to express their own views.

My own words are all men sin. Every single one. How good you are is relevant to whom you are comparing yourself. If you created your own universe and established your own laws, you could run it how you liked. If you stated you have to believe my words and accept my direction or you go to hell, then all who didn't would go to hell. To do otherwise would be unjust. The gift being free, and readily accepted, you cannot really fault God when you're being told right now that there's an open door if you'd like to come in. If your argument is that I'm good enough I don't need your salvation, then God is not obligated to you. If you see who you are compared to him and repent and accept his payment for that sin, He said He will save you and He will.
AndersonHunter
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9/28/2013 2:31:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 2:27:14 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/28/2013 12:03:34 PM, AndersonHunter wrote:
At 9/28/2013 11:51:35 AM, bulproof wrote:
You see, ALL have sinned.
Even the blastocyst has sinned, it and all other aborted foetuses will be punished for eternity for their sins.
This god is called LOVE.
99.9billion people have already suffered the consequences of their sin.
35 million spontaneous abortions per year and every single one of those sinners will suffer for eternity thanks to the all encompassing love of god.
Hallelujah, sing it out brothers and sisters Hallelujah!!!!

So, you're saying that the man that raped, tortured and murdered children deserves the fruits of eternal paradise, regardless of how much evil he visited upon the innocent? Just asking since you didn't directly talk about the question at hand.


If he truly repents then what he did in the past is no longer relevant.

It is fairly certain that when he was doing these things he didn't truly believe he was doing anything wrong. No doubt he found a way of rationalising the deeds away. "She was asking for it dressing like that" or Well they shouldn't have left it lying around" or, well he shouldn't have done what he did or I wouldn't have had to kill him.

Homosexuals rationalise their wrong doing by saying "I was born like that".

Thieves rationalise away their theft by saying things like "Well why should they have it when I can't afford it".

Look at the number of people who smoke, fooling themselves into thinking it doesn't no-one any harm.

Or the illegal drug abusers.

I could go on.

In God's eyes sin is sin. Stealing a pen from work is as wrong as stealing a million pounds.

Stealing the loaf of bread that keeps a man alive is the same as taking his life in the first place.

If one has finally had the courage to admit that what they were doing really was wrong, should they not get a second chance?

Have you never done anything wrong and been glad of a second chance?

If you and your God see stealing a pen and raping, torturing, murdering children as equal sins, then I say that both you and your God are morally bankrupt.

Naysayer
Posts: 746
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9/28/2013 2:34:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 2:31:21 PM, AndersonHunter wrote:
At 9/28/2013 2:27:14 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/28/2013 12:03:34 PM, AndersonHunter wrote:
At 9/28/2013 11:51:35 AM, bulproof wrote:
You see, ALL have sinned.
Even the blastocyst has sinned, it and all other aborted foetuses will be punished for eternity for their sins.
This god is called LOVE.
99.9billion people have already suffered the consequences of their sin.
35 million spontaneous abortions per year and every single one of those sinners will suffer for eternity thanks to the all encompassing love of god.
Hallelujah, sing it out brothers and sisters Hallelujah!!!!

So, you're saying that the man that raped, tortured and murdered children deserves the fruits of eternal paradise, regardless of how much evil he visited upon the innocent? Just asking since you didn't directly talk about the question at hand.


If he truly repents then what he did in the past is no longer relevant.

It is fairly certain that when he was doing these things he didn't truly believe he was doing anything wrong. No doubt he found a way of rationalising the deeds away. "She was asking for it dressing like that" or Well they shouldn't have left it lying around" or, well he shouldn't have done what he did or I wouldn't have had to kill him.

Homosexuals rationalise their wrong doing by saying "I was born like that".

Thieves rationalise away their theft by saying things like "Well why should they have it when I can't afford it".

Look at the number of people who smoke, fooling themselves into thinking it doesn't no-one any harm.

Or the illegal drug abusers.

I could go on.

In God's eyes sin is sin. Stealing a pen from work is as wrong as stealing a million pounds.

Stealing the loaf of bread that keeps a man alive is the same as taking his life in the first place.

If one has finally had the courage to admit that what they were doing really was wrong, should they not get a second chance?

Have you never done anything wrong and been glad of a second chance?

If you and your God see stealing a pen and raping, torturing, murdering children as equal sins, then I say that both you and your God are morally bankrupt.



As that seems to be your point in the first place, do you feel better, now?
AndersonHunter
Posts: 47
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9/28/2013 2:40:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 2:29:18 PM, Naysayer wrote:
At 9/28/2013 11:30:37 AM, AndersonHunter wrote:
At 9/28/2013 11:10:07 AM, Naysayer wrote:

First of all, your position itself is inconsistent with the Bible. Leading a decent life is not good enough. Because the Bible says All have sinned and if you're guilty of one point of the law, you're guilty of all. (Romans 5:12, James 2:10)

I never made the claim that it was or wasn't consistent with Biblical teaching. I simply proposed a situation and asked a question. Please remain on topic as to that question. Does Man B garner entry into Heaven over Man A, even though he had lived and what is the moral justification? I have a feeling those responding to this question will put aside their own moral compass and depend purely on scripture to guide their responses. However, I would like to know your feelings, using your own words, as to how Man b deserves to enjoy paradise given his evil deeds over Man A. I realizxe this may prove to be impossible for some because their thinking is so instructed by scriptural mandate that they aren't free to express their own views.

My own words are all men sin. Every single one. How good you are is relevant to whom you are comparing yourself. If you created your own universe and established your own laws, you could run it how you liked. If you stated you have to believe my words and accept my direction or you go to hell, then all who didn't would go to hell. To do otherwise would be unjust. The gift being free, and readily accepted, you cannot really fault God when you're being told right now that there's an open door if you'd like to come in. If your argument is that I'm good enough I don't need your salvation, then God is not obligated to you. If you see who you are compared to him and repent and accept his payment for that sin, He said He will save you and He will.

I appreciate your response. However, it still doesn't really address the crux of what I was getting at. Why does Man B deserve Heaven at all? Why are sins considered equal in nature, when of course, we know they are not. Does this concept not cause you to ever take pause? God would allow a person who had killed children to enjoy the same paradise as those children. As an intelligent and morally rational human being, this has to strike at your very senses of fairness and justness. Whether or not there is a God, this particular belief in salvation seems to fly in the face of everything think of in moral terms. I just don't know how Christians can so readily accept such an obviously man made concept.
AndersonHunter
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9/28/2013 2:43:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 2:34:09 PM, Naysayer wrote:
At 9/28/2013 2:31:21 PM, AndersonHunter wrote:
At 9/28/2013 2:27:14 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/28/2013 12:03:34 PM, AndersonHunter wrote:
At 9/28/2013 11:51:35 AM, bulproof wrote:
You see, ALL have sinned.
Even the blastocyst has sinned, it and all other aborted foetuses will be punished for eternity for their sins.
This god is called LOVE.
99.9billion people have already suffered the consequences of their sin.
35 million spontaneous abortions per year and every single one of those sinners will suffer for eternity thanks to the all encompassing love of god.
Hallelujah, sing it out brothers and sisters Hallelujah!!!!

So, you're saying that the man that raped, tortured and murdered children deserves the fruits of eternal paradise, regardless of how much evil he visited upon the innocent? Just asking since you didn't directly talk about the question at hand.


If he truly repents then what he did in the past is no longer relevant.

It is fairly certain that when he was doing these things he didn't truly believe he was doing anything wrong. No doubt he found a way of rationalising the deeds away. "She was asking for it dressing like that" or Well they shouldn't have left it lying around" or, well he shouldn't have done what he did or I wouldn't have had to kill him.

Homosexuals rationalise their wrong doing by saying "I was born like that".

Thieves rationalise away their theft by saying things like "Well why should they have it when I can't afford it".

Look at the number of people who smoke, fooling themselves into thinking it doesn't no-one any harm.

Or the illegal drug abusers.

I could go on.

In God's eyes sin is sin. Stealing a pen from work is as wrong as stealing a million pounds.

Stealing the loaf of bread that keeps a man alive is the same as taking his life in the first place.

If one has finally had the courage to admit that what they were doing really was wrong, should they not get a second chance?

Have you never done anything wrong and been glad of a second chance?

If you and your God see stealing a pen and raping, torturing, murdering children as equal sins, then I say that both you and your God are morally bankrupt.



As that seems to be your point in the first place, do you feel better, now?
Why would it make me feel better to know people still subscribe in large numbers to this line of thinking. It's disheartening if anything.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/28/2013 2:46:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 11:51:35 AM, bulproof wrote:
You see, ALL have sinned.
Even the blastocyst has sinned, it and all other aborted foetuses will be punished for eternity for their sins.
This god is called LOVE.
99.9billion people have already suffered the consequences of their sin.
35 million spontaneous abortions per year and every single one of those sinners will suffer for eternity thanks to the all encompassing love of god.
Hallelujah, sing it out brothers and sisters Hallelujah!!!!

What you say there just shows your ignorance because you couldn't be further from the truth of what the bible teaches.

No-one is suffering,except possibly Satan and his demons who are very angry at present.

Death is the price of all sin, except sin against the holy spirit.

Therefore all who have died have already paid for their sin. They will get a second chance to learn the right way in the resurrection.

You really ought to learn at least the basics of what you criticise before you go making a fool of yourself with ridiculous statements such as that.
Naysayer
Posts: 746
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9/28/2013 2:46:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 2:40:28 PM, AndersonHunter wrote:
At 9/28/2013 2:29:18 PM, Naysayer wrote:
At 9/28/2013 11:30:37 AM, AndersonHunter wrote:
At 9/28/2013 11:10:07 AM, Naysayer wrote:

First of all, your position itself is inconsistent with the Bible. Leading a decent life is not good enough. Because the Bible says All have sinned and if you're guilty of one point of the law, you're guilty of all. (Romans 5:12, James 2:10)

I never made the claim that it was or wasn't consistent with Biblical teaching. I simply proposed a situation and asked a question. Please remain on topic as to that question. Does Man B garner entry into Heaven over Man A, even though he had lived and what is the moral justification? I have a feeling those responding to this question will put aside their own moral compass and depend purely on scripture to guide their responses. However, I would like to know your feelings, using your own words, as to how Man b deserves to enjoy paradise given his evil deeds over Man A. I realizxe this may prove to be impossible for some because their thinking is so instructed by scriptural mandate that they aren't free to express their own views.

My own words are all men sin. Every single one. How good you are is relevant to whom you are comparing yourself. If you created your own universe and established your own laws, you could run it how you liked. If you stated you have to believe my words and accept my direction or you go to hell, then all who didn't would go to hell. To do otherwise would be unjust. The gift being free, and readily accepted, you cannot really fault God when you're being told right now that there's an open door if you'd like to come in. If your argument is that I'm good enough I don't need your salvation, then God is not obligated to you. If you see who you are compared to him and repent and accept his payment for that sin, He said He will save you and He will.

I appreciate your response. However, it still doesn't really address the crux of what I was getting at. Why does Man B deserve Heaven at all? Why are sins considered equal in nature, when of course, we know they are not. Does this concept not cause you to ever take pause? God would allow a person who had killed children to enjoy the same paradise as those children. As an intelligent and morally rational human being, this has to strike at your very senses of fairness and justness. Whether or not there is a God, this particular belief in salvation seems to fly in the face of everything think of in moral terms. I just don't know how Christians can so readily accept such an obviously man made concept.


I'm sorry. You had me at morally rational human. The concept is completely belied by history. Humans will always justify themselves. History is full of the acts of morally rational humans. I'm sure we'll see more examples tonight at six o'clock.

As far as God saving those that ask, regardless of station, first I'm asked by humanists how I would serve a God that would create people and then damn them all to hell. Then I'm asked how I would serve a God who could save some people and then send others to hell when they think it should be the other way around. Then I'm asked how I can serve a God that is supposed to be loving, but sends people to hell. Next I'm asked how I can serve God.

As I said, if it's being laid out in front of you and you don't accept it, what right do you have to complain?
Naysayer
Posts: 746
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9/28/2013 2:46:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 2:43:24 PM, AndersonHunter wrote:
At 9/28/2013 2:34:09 PM, Naysayer wrote:
At 9/28/2013 2:31:21 PM, AndersonHunter wrote:
At 9/28/2013 2:27:14 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/28/2013 12:03:34 PM, AndersonHunter wrote:
At 9/28/2013 11:51:35 AM, bulproof wrote:
You see, ALL have sinned.
Even the blastocyst has sinned, it and all other aborted foetuses will be punished for eternity for their sins.
This god is called LOVE.
99.9billion people have already suffered the consequences of their sin.
35 million spontaneous abortions per year and every single one of those sinners will suffer for eternity thanks to the all encompassing love of god.
Hallelujah, sing it out brothers and sisters Hallelujah!!!!

So, you're saying that the man that raped, tortured and murdered children deserves the fruits of eternal paradise, regardless of how much evil he visited upon the innocent? Just asking since you didn't directly talk about the question at hand.


If he truly repents then what he did in the past is no longer relevant.

It is fairly certain that when he was doing these things he didn't truly believe he was doing anything wrong. No doubt he found a way of rationalising the deeds away. "She was asking for it dressing like that" or Well they shouldn't have left it lying around" or, well he shouldn't have done what he did or I wouldn't have had to kill him.

Homosexuals rationalise their wrong doing by saying "I was born like that".

Thieves rationalise away their theft by saying things like "Well why should they have it when I can't afford it".

Look at the number of people who smoke, fooling themselves into thinking it doesn't no-one any harm.

Or the illegal drug abusers.

I could go on.

In God's eyes sin is sin. Stealing a pen from work is as wrong as stealing a million pounds.

Stealing the loaf of bread that keeps a man alive is the same as taking his life in the first place.

If one has finally had the courage to admit that what they were doing really was wrong, should they not get a second chance?

Have you never done anything wrong and been glad of a second chance?

If you and your God see stealing a pen and raping, torturing, murdering children as equal sins, then I say that both you and your God are morally bankrupt.



As that seems to be your point in the first place, do you feel better, now?
Why would it make me feel better to know people still subscribe in large numbers to this line of thinking. It's disheartening if anything.

Why would you care?
AndersonHunter
Posts: 47
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9/28/2013 2:55:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 2:46:42 PM, Naysayer wrote:
At 9/28/2013 2:43:24 PM, AndersonHunter wrote:
At 9/28/2013 2:34:09 PM, Naysayer wrote:
At 9/28/2013 2:31:21 PM, AndersonHunter wrote:
At 9/28/2013 2:27:14 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/28/2013 12:03:34 PM, AndersonHunter wrote:
At 9/28/2013 11:51:35 AM, bulproof wrote:
You see, ALL have sinned.
Even the blastocyst has sinned, it and all other aborted foetuses will be punished for eternity for their sins.
This god is called LOVE.
99.9billion people have already suffered the consequences of their sin.
35 million spontaneous abortions per year and every single one of those sinners will suffer for eternity thanks to the all encompassing love of god.
Hallelujah, sing it out brothers and sisters Hallelujah!!!!

So, you're saying that the man that raped, tortured and murdered children deserves the fruits of eternal paradise, regardless of how much evil he visited upon the innocent? Just asking since you didn't directly talk about the question at hand.


If he truly repents then what he did in the past is no longer relevant.

It is fairly certain that when he was doing these things he didn't truly believe he was doing anything wrong. No doubt he found a way of rationalising the deeds away. "She was asking for it dressing like that" or Well they shouldn't have left it lying around" or, well he shouldn't have done what he did or I wouldn't have had to kill him.

Homosexuals rationalise their wrong doing by saying "I was born like that".

Thieves rationalise away their theft by saying things like "Well why should they have it when I can't afford it".

Look at the number of people who smoke, fooling themselves into thinking it doesn't no-one any harm.

Or the illegal drug abusers.

I could go on.

In God's eyes sin is sin. Stealing a pen from work is as wrong as stealing a million pounds.

Stealing the loaf of bread that keeps a man alive is the same as taking his life in the first place.

If one has finally had the courage to admit that what they were doing really was wrong, should they not get a second chance?

Have you never done anything wrong and been glad of a second chance?

If you and your God see stealing a pen and raping, torturing, murdering children as equal sins, then I say that both you and your God are morally bankrupt.



As that seems to be your point in the first place, do you feel better, now?
Why would it make me feel better to know people still subscribe in large numbers to this line of thinking. It's disheartening if anything.

Why would you care?
Perhaps because I have to share a planet with these people. They get elected to office and make decisions that affect me. Maybe because they try to indoctrinate others into following the same line of thinking. Maybe because they use their perceived righteousness and having God on their side to bully and intimidate those that don't adhere. Those could be just a few reasons.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/28/2013 2:55:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 11:22:08 AM, AndersonHunter wrote:
At 9/28/2013 11:07:27 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/28/2013 10:41:58 AM, AndersonHunter wrote:


As to your second example, whether or not he gains salvation all depends on if he looks to the correct source to find it.

There are millions out there who have confessed their since and turned their backs on them, but do not acknowledge the correct God as the source of their possible salvation. For instance there are millions out there who call themselves Christian but do not know, and are not taught, the truth about God, and therefore they worship a false, Trinitarian, God. That will not save them however good they may appear to human eyes.

OK, let's put it this way since your are parsing between denominations. Let's say Man B in the example accepts and seeks forgiveness from YOUR version of Jesus and becomes a devout follower of YOUR version of Christianity. Then, does is he granted entry into Heaven despite the unspeakable wickedness he has visited upon the most innocent of our species. Please try to answer the question directly this time.

In God's eyes there is only one version of Christianity, fdollowing any other will lead to destruction, as Jesus said.

Also he won't get to heaven few do and then only because they go to rule with Christ. I know that is not my role.

The rest of the dead are unconscious in the grave until the resurrection, after Armageddon.

And yes he would get the second chance. Either by living through Armageddon, or being resurrected after it.

However all will still have to undergo a final test before they finally survive to live in perfection on a renewed earth.
Naysayer
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9/28/2013 2:56:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 2:55:02 PM, AndersonHunter wrote:
Why would you care?
Perhaps because I have to share a planet with these people. They get elected to office and make decisions that affect me. Maybe because they try to indoctrinate others into following the same line of thinking. Maybe because they use their perceived righteousness and having God on their side to bully and intimidate those that don't adhere. Those could be just a few reasons.


The implication that people don't do those things without religion is hilarious. Sounds like a people problem, not a God problem.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/28/2013 3:03:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/28/2013 2:56:37 PM, Naysayer wrote:
At 9/28/2013 2:55:02 PM, AndersonHunter wrote:
Why would you care?
Perhaps because I have to share a planet with these people. They get elected to office and make decisions that affect me. Maybe because they try to indoctrinate others into following the same line of thinking. Maybe because they use their perceived righteousness and having God on their side to bully and intimidate those that don't adhere. Those could be just a few reasons.


The implication that people don't do those things without religion is hilarious. Sounds like a people problem, not a God problem.

No, it's a Satan problem. He is in charge of this world and influences most people without them even knowing it.

The only ones he does not influence or control are those who have sought the protection of God through holes spirit, and even then only if they have done so in the right way, to the right motive and to the right God, not the Trinitarian fake version.

I know what that protection is like and how powerful it needs to be, when I have needed it in the past.