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If the universe began....

Magic8000
Posts: 975
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10/1/2013 11:37:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
This is an old argument I had reformulated. I'm not certain of its validity.

The basic idea is, if the second premise of the KCA is true, then the God the KCA proponent is trying to prove, doesn't exist.

If God is omniscient, then He already wanted to create the universe. Yet if God has eternally had the intention of creating the universe, the universe should just be eternal. If the universe began God could have never be the cause of it. Unless we presume God has a dynamic mind, which would be flawed because time needs to exist for that to happen.

The most common objection I've seen is that God had the intention of creating the universe at some point. But this assumes God is within time. He can't have a "when", because no "when" exists.

Thoughts?
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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10/3/2013 5:33:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/1/2013 11:37:48 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
This is an old argument I had reformulated. I'm not certain of its validity.

The basic idea is, if the second premise of the KCA is true, then the God the KCA proponent is trying to prove, doesn't exist.

If God is omniscient, then He already wanted to create the universe. Yet if God has eternally had the intention of creating the universe, the universe should just be eternal. If the universe began God could have never be the cause of it. Unless we presume God has a dynamic mind, which would be flawed because time needs to exist for that to happen.

The most common objection I've seen is that God had the intention of creating the universe at some point. But this assumes God is within time. He can't have a "when", because no "when" exists.

Thoughts?

Well if you speak about the Abrahamic God, His will doesn't have to be infinite in time..

He is infinite, has no beginning , but he can will something today, and something new tomorrow.

You need to understand the relationship between God and Time, Time is infinite, it's the possibility for events to occur, it allows (doesn't control) that a universe , for instance, begins to exist.

God , Is what , not only allows, but makes events. not sure if you realise that time is part of the definition of God. Time is only an attribute of God, so God doesn't depend on time , He is time.

His will is independent of time, he can make them depend on it, I can't see in what way they got to be eternal?
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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10/3/2013 5:52:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/3/2013 5:33:12 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 10/1/2013 11:37:48 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
This is an old argument I had reformulated. I'm not certain of its validity.

The basic idea is, if the second premise of the KCA is true, then the God the KCA proponent is trying to prove, doesn't exist.

If God is omniscient, then He already wanted to create the universe. Yet if God has eternally had the intention of creating the universe, the universe should just be eternal. If the universe began God could have never be the cause of it. Unless we presume God has a dynamic mind, which would be flawed because time needs to exist for that to happen.

The most common objection I've seen is that God had the intention of creating the universe at some point. But this assumes God is within time. He can't have a "when", because no "when" exists.

Thoughts?

Well if you speak about the Abrahamic God, His will doesn't have to be infinite in time..

He is infinite, has no beginning , but he can will something today, and something new tomorrow.

You need to understand the relationship between God and Time, Time is infinite, it's the possibility for events to occur, it allows (doesn't control) that a universe , for instance, begins to exist.

God , Is what , not only allows, but makes events. not sure if you realise that time is part of the definition of God. Time is only an attribute of God, so God doesn't depend on time , He is time.

His will is independent of time, he can make them depend on it, I can't see in what way they got to be eternal?

So, if god is time, and god is in time, does that mean god is inside himself? And if it does, does that make you as horny as it makes me?
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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10/3/2013 6:10:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/1/2013 11:37:48 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
This is an old argument I had reformulated. I'm not certain of its validity.

The basic idea is, if the second premise of the KCA is true, then the God the KCA proponent is trying to prove, doesn't exist.

If God is omniscient, then He already wanted to create the universe. Yet if God has eternally had the intention of creating the universe, the universe should just be eternal. If the universe began God could have never be the cause of it. Unless we presume God has a dynamic mind, which would be flawed because time needs to exist for that to happen.

The most common objection I've seen is that God had the intention of creating the universe at some point. But this assumes God is within time. He can't have a "when", because no "when" exists.

Thoughts?

God could have timelessly held the will to create the universe, but didn't act on it until the first moment of time, no?
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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10/3/2013 6:18:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/3/2013 5:52:17 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 10/3/2013 5:33:12 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 10/1/2013 11:37:48 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
This is an old argument I had reformulated. I'm not certain of its validity.

The basic idea is, if the second premise of the KCA is true, then the God the KCA proponent is trying to prove, doesn't exist.

If God is omniscient, then He already wanted to create the universe. Yet if God has eternally had the intention of creating the universe, the universe should just be eternal. If the universe began God could have never be the cause of it. Unless we presume God has a dynamic mind, which would be flawed because time needs to exist for that to happen.

The most common objection I've seen is that God had the intention of creating the universe at some point. But this assumes God is within time. He can't have a "when", because no "when" exists.

Thoughts?

Well if you speak about the Abrahamic God, His will doesn't have to be infinite in time..

He is infinite, has no beginning , but he can will something today, and something new tomorrow.

You need to understand the relationship between God and Time, Time is infinite, it's the possibility for events to occur, it allows (doesn't control) that a universe , for instance, begins to exist.

God , Is what , not only allows, but makes events. not sure if you realise that time is part of the definition of God. Time is only an attribute of God, so God doesn't depend on time , He is time.

His will is independent of time, he can make them depend on it, I can't see in what way they got to be eternal?

So, if god is time, and god is in time, does that mean god is inside himself? And if it does, does that make you as horny as it makes me?

Why do you say God is in time ?! He isn't.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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10/3/2013 6:20:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/3/2013 6:10:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote: : : At 10/1/2013 11:37:48 PM, Magic8000 wrote: : : This is an old argument I had reformulated. I'm not certain of its validity. : : : : The basic idea is, if the second premise of the KCA is true, then the God the KCA proponent is trying to prove, doesn't exist. : : : : If God is omniscient, then He already wanted to create the universe. Yet if God has eternally had theintention of creating the universe, the universe should just be eternal. If the universe began God could have never be the cause of it. Unless we presume God has a dynamic mind, which would be flawed becausetime needs to exist for that to happen. : : : : The most common objection I've seen is that God had theintention of creating the universe at some point. But this assumes God is within time. He can't have a "when", because no "when" exists. : : : : Thoughts? : : God could havetimelessly held the will to create the universe, but didn't ins>act on it ins>until the first moment oftime, no?

What would have possibly started time ?! nothing can start time without suggesting time already existed..
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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10/3/2013 6:24:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/3/2013 6:18:53 PM, Fruitytree wrote: : : At 10/3/2013 5:52:17 PM, muzebreak wrote: : : : At 10/3/2013 5:33:12 PM, Fruitytree wrote: : : : : At 10/1/2013 11:37:48 PM, Magic8000 wrote: : : : : This is an old argument I had reformulated. I'm not certain of its validity. : : : : : : : : The basic idea is, if the second premise of the KCA is true, then the God the KCA proponent is trying to prove, doesn't exist. : : : : : : : : If God is omniscient, then He already wanted to create the universe. Yet if God has eternally had theintention of creating the universe, the universe should just be eternal. If the universe began God could have never be the cause of it. Unless we presume God has a dynamic mind, which would be flawed becausetime needs to exist for that to happen. : : : : : : : : The most common objection I've seen is that God had theintention of creating the universe at some point. But this assumes God is within time. He can't have a "when", because no "when" exists. : : : : : : : : Thoughts? : : : : : : Well if you speak about the Abrahamic God, His will doesn't have to beinfinitein time.. : : : : : : He isinfinite, has no beginning , but he can will something today, and something new tomorrow. : : : : : : You need to understand the relationship between God andTime,Time isinfinite, it's the possibility for events to occur, it allows (doesn't control) that a universe , forinstance, begins to exist. : : : : : : God , Is what , not only allows, but makes events. not sure if you realise thattime is part of the definition of God.Time is only an attribute of God, so God doesn't depend ontime , He istime. : : : : : : His will isindependent oftime, he can make them depend on it, I can't seein what way they got to be eternal? : : : : So, if god istime, and god isin time, does that mean god isinside himself? And if it does, does that make you as horny as it makes me? : : Why do you say God is in time ?! He isn't.

Look, I think you misunderstood me..

I say God is Time , as I would say you are beautiful, here time is an attribute not an identity.
Disquisition
Posts: 391
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10/3/2013 7:06:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/1/2013 11:37:48 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
This is an old argument I had reformulated. I'm not certain of its validity.

The basic idea is, if the second premise of the KCA is true, then the God the KCA proponent is trying to prove, doesn't exist.

If God is omniscient, then He already wanted to create the universe. Yet if God has eternally had the intention of creating the universe, the universe should just be eternal. If the universe began God could have never be the cause of it. Unless we presume God has a dynamic mind, which would be flawed because time needs to exist for that to happen.

The most common objection I've seen is that God had the intention of creating the universe at some point. But this assumes God is within time. He can't have a "when", because no "when" exists.

Why is God necessarily within time, are you saying time starts with the conception of the universe or God was just within eternal time prior to the creation of the universe?

If the former, then God wouldn't be in time, implying that he was just there in the timeless past prior to the onset of the universe. Which also means he created the concept of time when the universe started.

If the later, then time is essentially eternal, with God being within eternal time prior to the creation of the universe. However, what if God is eternal time, meaning he created our concept of time when the universe began. Basically, I think time has always been a timeless eternal spectrum but we have only started to take measurements of time (days, hrs, min, etc...) when the universe began.

Now when exactly was God in this eternal spectrum of time before the universe began, no one knows. That's why he must be eternal time in its self
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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10/3/2013 11:34:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/3/2013 6:10:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
God could have timelessly held the will to create the universe, but didn't act on it until the first moment of time, no?

I don't think that's coherent. "Timelessly" means not-at-any-time, right? And if there was no time at which he had that will, then how could he have acted on it?

Furthermore, when you say that he didn't act on it "until" the first moment of time, you are making clear that it wasn't really timeless.
Disquisition
Posts: 391
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10/4/2013 12:05:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/3/2013 7:06:30 PM, Disquisition wrote:

Why is God necessarily within time, are you saying time starts with the conception of the universe or God was just within eternal time prior to the creation of the universe?

If the former, then God wouldn't be in time, implying that he was just there in the timeless past prior to the onset of the universe. Which also means he created the concept of time when the universe started.

If the later, then time is essentially eternal, with God being within eternal time prior to the creation of the universe. However, what if God is eternal time, meaning we only began to acknowledge what time was after he created the universe. Basically, I think time has always been an eternal spectrum but we have only started to take measurements of time (days, hrs, min, etc...) when the universe began.

Now when exactly was God in this eternal spectrum of time before the universe began, no one knows. That's why he must be eternal time in itself

Edited
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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10/4/2013 12:10:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/3/2013 11:34:08 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 10/3/2013 6:10:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
God could have timelessly held the will to create the universe, but didn't act on it until the first moment of time, no?

I don't think that's coherent. "Timelessly" means not-at-any-time, right?

Exactly, but how is that incoherent?

And if there was no time at which he had that will, then how could he have acted on it?

Because he could have held it timelessly atemporally prior to the first moment of time, at which he acted on his will to create: and created.... Like I said lol


Furthermore, when you say that he didn't act on it "until" the first moment of time, you are making clear that it wasn't really timeless.

Ok, then I won't use the word "until". That's just semantics...
Magic8000
Posts: 975
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10/4/2013 1:05:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/3/2013 6:10:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/1/2013 11:37:48 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
This is an old argument I had reformulated. I'm not certain of its validity.

The basic idea is, if the second premise of the KCA is true, then the God the KCA proponent is trying to prove, doesn't exist.

If God is omniscient, then He already wanted to create the universe. Yet if God has eternally had the intention of creating the universe, the universe should just be eternal. If the universe began God could have never be the cause of it. Unless we presume God has a dynamic mind, which would be flawed because time needs to exist for that to happen.

The most common objection I've seen is that God had the intention of creating the universe at some point. But this assumes God is within time. He can't have a "when", because no "when" exists.

Thoughts?

God could have timelessly held the will to create the universe, but didn't act on it until the first moment of time, no?

I talked about that in my OP. How would he not act until the first moment of time? That would assume he knew when to act, but he can't have a when. God is the same timeless being, nothing would have changed.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
Smithereens
Posts: 5,512
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10/4/2013 4:39:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/1/2013 11:37:48 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
This is an old argument I had reformulated. I'm not certain of its validity.

The basic idea is, if the second premise of the KCA is true, then the God the KCA proponent is trying to prove, doesn't exist.

If God is omniscient, then He already wanted to create the universe.
You cannot equate these two sentences, nor do they follow.

Yet if God has eternally had the intention of creating the universe,
you haven't show that God has always intended to create the universe, and how can God intend to do something for a period of time when time didn't exist? God is not physical remember, so space and time are not concepts that one can apply to Him. Eternal can only be said when there is physical time. The adjective you look for is transcendent. Immaterial.

the universe should just be eternal.
Why? Suppose God was bound by time and had been planning on making us for eternity, why would the universe be eternal? He could have been planning on making us at a certain point in time. Except that God is not affected by time the same way we are.

If the universe began God could have never be the cause of it.
Are you trying to say that if the universe began, it was not God who cased it? Or are you saying that if the universe caused God, then God couldn't have caused the universe?

Unless we presume God has a dynamic mind, which would be flawed because time needs to exist for that to happen.
We need not presume anything. But why must time exist in order for a dynamic mind to exist? We think in real time, why must God?

The most common objection I've seen is that God had the intention of creating the universe at some point. But this assumes God is within time. He can't have a "when", because no "when" exists.
That's right, so we evidently cannot discern the Intentions of God. Does God need intentions in order to do something? You presume you know too much about God.

Thoughts?
No.
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wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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10/5/2013 9:44:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/4/2013 12:10:41 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Ok, then I won't use the word "until". That's just semantics...

No, it is the essence of the issue. When you say, "he could have held it timelessly atemporally prior to the first moment of time," you are contradicting yourself. You are fielding an argument that cannot be explained without contradiction.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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10/5/2013 9:48:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/5/2013 9:44:38 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 10/4/2013 12:10:41 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Ok, then I won't use the word "until". That's just semantics...

No, it is the essence of the issue. When you say, "he could have held it timelessly atemporally prior to the first moment of time," you are contradicting yourself. You are fielding an argument that cannot be explained without contradiction.

I agree it is a contradiction, because "held" is past tense, so "atemporally prior" being mixed with a past tense is a illogical. As someone else said, this could just be a language barrier; as all of our language is tensed. Until we come up with new words, I guess that the idea cannot be expressed in the English language. Perhaps it is impossible.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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10/6/2013 4:39:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/1/2013 11:37:48 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
This is an old argument I had reformulated. I'm not certain of its validity.

The basic idea is, if the second premise of the KCA is true, then the God the KCA proponent is trying to prove, doesn't exist.

If God is omniscient, then He already wanted to create the universe. Yet if God has eternally had the intention of creating the universe, the universe should just be eternal. If the universe began God could have never be the cause of it. Unless we presume God has a dynamic mind, which would be flawed because time needs to exist for that to happen.

The most common objection I've seen is that God had the intention of creating the universe at some point. But this assumes God is within time. He can't have a "when", because no "when" exists.

Thoughts?

The invisible creation was planned and created by our Creator. The visible world that we see, hear, taste, smell and touch is only an illusion that is formed from the invisible creation called wavelengths of energy, which is invisible to man. In fact, energy doesn't require space, time or matter because it's only information that comes from our Creator's thoughts that are spoken into existence through God's first created machine called His voice, or the Word.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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10/6/2013 11:04:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/4/2013 4:37:52 AM, bulproof wrote: :There can be no before time.

Note one thing we agree about..